What makes a song traditional? [Archive]

JeffD

Oct-21-2007, 2:31pm

I guess, broadly speaking, traditional would mean in the tradition. An old timey or celtic or contra dance tune that had the "look and feel" of the tradition that inspired it, would, in a broad sense, be a traditional tune.

I don't think the age of the tune is as important as the style.

It is a shame they don't write any old tunes any more. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

mythicfish

Oct-21-2007, 2:52pm

"I was wondering, what makes a song traditional?"

No royalties?

Curt

jmcgann

Oct-21-2007, 3:28pm

Someone other than you plays it for decades http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Celtic Saguaro

Oct-21-2007, 3:32pm

Your Grandfather learned it from his grandmother. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Andrew Lewis

Oct-21-2007, 3:39pm

It is a shame they don't write any old tunes any more. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
LOL! Well done.

I think this can make for an interesting discussion.
As with everything else, it really boils down to the function of the word within the context its used at a given time, so a more specific question may be "How is the word 'traditional' most commoly used and interpreted in out modern society." I think JeffD hit the nail on the head. To take it a step further, I think "traditional" indicates a lack of modern influence. If you sit down to write a "traditional" song, you have to consciously eschew styles that have been created in recent history and specifically try to emulate a style that was created some time in the past.
But as I said at the beginning, that's just one person's (mine) usage of the word.

Mike Buesseler

Oct-21-2007, 4:56pm

Seriously, though, it must have something to do with either not knowing who the author is, or that the copyright has lapsed, doesn't it? "Traditional" does mean that no one gets royalties, I thought. And, aren't some Stephen Foster (for example) tunes often listed as "traditional"? I might have this wrong, but the OP question seems very reasonable and interesting to me.

Mike Buesseler

Oct-21-2007, 4:59pm

Here's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_music) what Wikipedia says...

mythicfish

Oct-21-2007, 5:05pm

As long as the "definition" is at the mercy of peoples opinions, it may as well be meaningless.

Curt

allenhopkins

Oct-21-2007, 5:31pm

To start with, not under copyright.
Some people think that if the composer is known, the song/tune isn't really "traditional." This definition includes most old fiddle tunes, oral-tradition ballads, etc., but excludes Foster, O'Carolan, A.P. Carter, John Newton (he wrote Amazing Grace), etc. Most bluegrass and jazz, and a lot of blues, are not considered "traditional" by this definition.
Not satisfied by such a narrow definition, others attempt to define "traditional" stylistically. This creates enormous opportunities for dispute. There are contemporary composers (I cite Gillian Welch) who write songs indistinguishable from "traditional" material, in terms of style, subject matter, and manner of performance. There are a number of recently-composed songs that get a "traditional" arrangement or treatment by one or another performer. Songs like Long Black Veil, tunes like Foggy Mountain Breakdown, are around a half-century old, with known and (in the case of Earl Scruggs) still-living composers, and yet many would consider them "traditional."
If people like Curt are looking for an objective definition, "composer unknown/public domain" is as close as I think you can get. Once the style criterion is used, it does become a matter of opinion. (Parenthetically, that's why I distrust any athletic competition in which the scoring is a matter of judges' opinon.)
And, of course, just because we don't know who the composer is, doesn't mean that there wasn't a composer, whether back in the 15th Century or less than 100 years ago. Gus Cannon never copyrighted Walk Right In, but Erik Darling and Vanguard Records had the decency to pay him composer's royalties anyway. Someone wrote Soldier's Joy and Sir Patrick Spens, but I guess we'll never know who -- so they're "traditional."

Nick Royal

Oct-21-2007, 5:44pm

Another aspect of a traditional song relates to it passing into tradition, sung by lots of people even if they don't know who wrote it. Red River Valley and Home on the Range might be examples because I think the authorship is known, but many people sing them as "folk songs;" songs they have learned from someone else/family members, etc. vs. a song book.

JeffD

Oct-21-2007, 7:04pm

I am pretty unknown. If I write a tune does that make it traditional? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

mythicfish

Oct-21-2007, 7:16pm

"If people like Curt are looking for an objective definition, "composer unknown/public domain" is as close as I think you can get."

That's as close to meaningful as I can imagine.
Mr. Lewis' post contained the following hypothetical situation:"If you sit down to write a "traditional" song ..."
Is this possible ... any more so than making an antique piece of furniture ?

Curt (or "someone like" him)

Steve Cantrell

Oct-21-2007, 7:39pm

Quote: "As long as the "definition" is at the mercy of peoples [missing apostrophe] opinions, it may as well be meaningless."

So...I suppose definitions are handed down out of the sky on stone tablets, Curt? Maybe they're deduced from the patterns of tea leaves in the bottom of a cup, or maybe even in chicken entrails. Oh...wait...maybe I've been paying tax money to fund "The Justice League of Definitions and Grammar Correction" and have since forgotten. Either way, the definition of a word is just that--someone's opinion. Just my two cents.:)

allenhopkins

Oct-21-2007, 8:17pm

Hey, leave Curt alone, he's being nice...
And, of course, there's no one like him, not really!

JeffD

Oct-21-2007, 8:28pm

the definition of a word is just that--someone's opinion. Just my two cents.:)
It has to be a kind of consensus opinion I would think. Otherwise communications would be impossible.

Although sometimes communications does seem impossible.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

mandopickin4Him

Oct-21-2007, 8:30pm

Thanks!

mythicfish

Oct-21-2007, 10:25pm

So...I suppose definitions are handed down out of the sky on stone tablets, Curt? Maybe they're deduced from the patterns of tea leaves in the bottom of a cup, or maybe even in chicken entrails. Oh...wait...maybe I've been paying tax money to fund "The Justice League of Definitions and Grammar Correction" and have since forgotten. Either way, the definition of a word is just that--someone's opinion. Just my two cents.:)

If your arguement relies on manufacturing an extreme hypothesis as the sole source of justification, then you don't have a leg to stand on.
But I can understand your point of view. It's quite fashionable these days to believe that all opinions are of equal value and that the arguement that carries the most weight is the one
put forth by someone claiming to be an "injured party". Sorry Steve, but if the meaning of anything is nothing more than what you or I CHOOSE it to mean, then doesn't meaning become
... well, meaningless? If I've informed you against your will ... my apologies.

P.S. I've always had trouble with those pesky apostrophies, but at least I'm willing to admit that their proper use doesn't depend on my opinion.

Curt

Peter Hackman

Oct-21-2007, 11:04pm

What makes a song traditional? Tradition, of course.

What makes a song "traditional"? Greed.

Jim Broyles

Oct-21-2007, 11:16pm

The trouble with Wikipedia is that it is all opinion. Anyone can get an account and edit an article. I have done it. As far as can one write a traditional song, I'd say sure. You can't write an old song, but you can write a song which adheres to traditional values and expectations. Here is Roget's version of the word 'traditional':

Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus - Cite This Source - Share This
Main Entry: traditional
Part of Speech: adjective
Definition: usual
Synonyms: acceptable, accustomed, acknowledged, ancestral, classic, classical, common, conventional, customary, doctrinal, established, fixed, folk, habitual, historic, immemorial, long-established, old, oral, popular, prescribed, regular, rooted, sanctioned, time-honored, transmitted, universal, unwritten, widely used, widespread
Antonyms: fresh, new, unusual
Source: Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.3.1)
Copyright © 2007 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.

Going by the definitions of many of those synonyms, one can certainly write a new traditional song.

Andrew Lewis

Oct-22-2007, 12:10am

Just to clarify my original post in the interest of this discussion, please note that I did not use the word "opinion" nor was that my intended meaning. I was simply alluding to the ways words (and symbols, too) become used differently over time and depending on the groups that use them. I'm talking connotation and usage here, not definitions. Words do evolve over time just as symbols become interpreted differently as events change them. As an English teacher, I often discuss this with my classes as we see the English language evolve when surveying British literature.
Anyway, I felt it was a relevant point to bring up when trying to understand what we mean when we say "traditional."
But I do agree, though, that if we want to pin down the definition of the word in the context of music, it's probably easier to just stick with the concept of a song or tune that has had a reasonable life span and whose author can no longer be noted or remembered.

Fretbear

Oct-22-2007, 12:18am

Some of Norman Blake's finest recordings are divided fairly evenly into traditional and original pieces. They all have a traditional feel, usually with a few of Blake's "twists" artfully inserted into the original instrumental pieces. I love to play his magnificent "Thebes" and have recorded it, but I find that most people generally lack the attention span to even listen to the entire number, much less be interested in it. It is one of his tunes honoring "Little Egypt", an area of the Southland particularly dear to him and a place where Abraham Lincoln once studied law. "Grey Coat Soldiers", "When the Field's are White with Daisies" and "Lincoln's Funeral Train" are a few of his original songs that sound ancient. His "Back In Yonder's World" tells you alot about him. He is an American treasure.

lgc

Oct-22-2007, 7:50am

I don't think copyright has much to do with it because the early player copywrited many traditional songs of standardized their arrangments and now recieve royalties(or at least their record labels do). It is actually very hard to find traditionals that are safe to record because the vast majority have some copyright on them. I would be interested to know how far off a specific arrangement you have to be to not infringe.

I like how Monroe would just slightly rewrite tunes like Molly and Tenebrooks to copy write it. I think it is a term, legal that has very little meaning.

mythicfish

Oct-22-2007, 7:57am

"I would be interested to know how far off a specific arrangement you have to be to not infringe."

If the "music industry" has their way, no music will exist in the public domain .

lgc

Oct-22-2007, 8:49am

If they had their way we'd all be listening to Big and Rich and we'd pay $0.99 everytime we hum a tune.

mythicfish

Oct-22-2007, 12:15pm

Hmmm ....
D'oh!

hoffmannia2k7

Oct-22-2007, 3:31pm

Big and Rich all the time? count me in!

allenhopkins

Oct-22-2007, 10:00pm

It is actually very hard to find traditionals that are safe to record because the vast majority have some copyright on them. I would be interested to know how far off a specific arrangement you have to be to not infringe.

I like how Monroe would just slightly rewrite tunes like Molly and Tenbrooks to copyright it. I think it is a term, legal that has very little meaning.
You can copyright an arrangement of a traditional song; then, if someone uses your arrangement note-for-note, they are infringing. You can't be the copyrighted composer unless you wrote the song.

Hate to take on Col. Roget, but "traditional" has to have a more specific meaning than "accepted" or "usual" in the context of music. You could say, "That's the traditional way to play Soldier's Joy," (meaning "accepted" or "usual"), but that's different from saying "Soldier's Joy is a traditional tune."

lgc

Oct-23-2007, 7:46am

To the best of my knowledge, Roget din't play American music. I think what the poster asked was what makes a song "A traditional." Are you saying Soilder's Joy is not a traditional?

allenhopkins

Oct-23-2007, 11:13am

To the best of my knowledge, Roget din't play American music. I think what the poster asked was what makes a song "A traditional." Are you saying Soilder's Joy is not a traditional?
No. Jbmando quoted from Roget's Thesaurus which stated that the most exact meaning (or synonym) for "traditional" was "usual."

This may work in some contexts ("I drove home from Syracuse the traditional way, through Auburn"), but it doesn't apply to our discussion of "what is a traditional song."

Of course Soldier's Joy is a traditional song, but that's because it's [1] old, [2] public domain/composer unknown, [3] passed down at least partially through "oral" (can you say an instrumental is passed orally?) tradition. Not because it's usual, accepted, etc. or the other definitions Col. Roget supplied.

If one accepts the thesaurus definition, any song that's played in a widespread, accepted style is "traditional." A good example of that would be Happy Birthday to You, which is most certainly not a traditional song. In fact, I believe it's still under copyright.

lgc

Oct-23-2007, 11:58am

I would totally disagree about "happy birthday". I think it is completely a part of the American tradition and is used almost ubiquitously throughout our culture. A traditional song could be taken from a literal sense in that it is part a tradition. The "Star Spangled Banner" has an author but it is tradition to sing it at sporting events in America so thus it is traditional. There is a difference between a standard and a traditional and I think time and usage generally determine that crossover.

Andrew Lewis

Oct-23-2007, 1:08pm

Of course Soldier's Joy is a traditional song, but that's because it's [1] old, [2] public domain/composer unknown, [3] passed down at least partially through "oral" (can you say an instrumental is passed orally?) tradition. #Not because it's usual, accepted, etc. or the other definitions Col. Roget supplied.
This sounds like the best description of a traditional song I've seen in this discussion.

It seems, though, that because the word "traditional" is such a broadly defined word with multiple definitions, some choose different definitions to use. It is the context that typically guides the usage, though, and in this case, the world of music most often uses the one above.

Jim Broyles

Oct-23-2007, 1:58pm

Are you trying to say that "traditional" songs are not expected to be played with "usual, accepted" arrangements and instrumentation, and that the reason they are "traditional" is because "that's the way we always played them?" I think you guys are conflating the definitions of the words 'traditional' and 'old/public domain.' Even the wiki article linked in this thread (which I have already stated is a matter of opinion and not a true authoritative source) does not define traditional music in those terms. They call "lack of a copyright" a "common feature" of traditional music, but not a prerequisite. The main definition is that it is what used to be known as "folk music." I maintain one can write a new "traditional" song.

Andrew Lewis

Oct-23-2007, 5:24pm

I don't know. You make some good points, too, and I do agree that someone can write a new traditional song (as I was thinking in my first post). Perhaps the application of the word is more along the lines of an either/or scenario. It is a nebulous concept, no doubt!

allenhopkins

Oct-23-2007, 11:10pm

Think we're going to have to "agree to disagree." If being "part of the American tradition and used ubiquitously throughout the nation" makes a song traditional, then you could make a good case for Mr. Tambourine Man, Born To Run, Your Cheatin' Heart and Material Girl. My definition would be quite a bit narrower, as I summarized it --

But you guys are welcome to your definitions, as well. To me, a "new traditional song" is an oxymoron. You can write "a new song in the traditional style" (again, I cite Gillian Welch as a marvelous contemporary practitioner), but to me, it ain't traditional until the copyright expires, at the very least.

Thanx to everyone for a very stimulating discussion! I'm bowing out, having run my mouth (or my keyboard) hard enough. This is the kind of good-natured back-and-forth that makes a board like the Cafe well worth participation.