What is 'The Sound'?

[Jonathan Peck]

What is 'The Sound'? Can it be defined...or maybe it has already since alot mandolins that come up for sale are said to have it. For starters, I think that this is refering to the 'bluegrass' sound as defined in recordings by Bill Monroe and his Bluegrass boys as played on his historic F-5 Loar period mandolin.

But, there are other notably talented and recorded artists that play a Loar period F-5 mandolin that don't sound like Bill Monroe. Also, I have considered through the insightful posts here on the cafe that no two Loars sound exactly alike, and some are considered to be more desireable than others.

Another factor is that mandolins can be set-up differently to acoomodate different players preferences. I would think that in order to sound like the father himself , and have the sound, that you would also have to set-up your mandolin similarly and have a right hand like the father himself. You would also have to play through similar vintage equipment to get 'the sound' as historically close as possible.

Another direct factor on sound that I find has a considerable affect on the sound that you get from a mandolin is the pick you use. Next would be the strings.

So all these things considered, if you break this down, what really defines 'the sound'? What are the common denominators that a mandolin must have to be considered over all other things to be a great bluegrass mandolin and reminescent of the father of all mandolins in the bluegrass genre?

It's one thing to define the physical charectoristics of an object, but how do you define the way the sound is percieved by an individual. For one thing a common language would be essencial. We all kind of repeat certain buzz words, but based on experience, do we all really know the full extent of what these buzz words mean?.....is one man's woof another man's bark?

[jaydee]

I've been thinking about my tone a lot recently, and here's what I think. It's safe to say, or maybe not, that the quintessential Bluegrass tone is that of Bill Monroe. May be it is better to say set of tones instead. All of the variables you listed are part of the picture and I'm sure that there are more.
The best description I've heard for part of that tone is that you hear the sound of a tennis ball hitting a wall. For me that hollow percussive sound is it. There are lot's of components in "the sound" but that's the one that does it for me. And the language is pretty easy to understand since just about everyone has heard that sound. And if they haven't they can just go find a tennis ball. Nothing as subjective as "woody" or "dry" there.

Jeremy

[emitfo]

A Good Example (http://www.kinman.com/html/toneWorkshop/glossary/sonic.htm)

This one (if you go to it) is obviously about Fender Vintage Pickup sounds and is a good starting point for what you're talking about. It's the best I've seen anywhere in regards to codifying sounds as best we can for an intelligent discussion that doesn't go 'round and 'round only to end up with "Oh, well THAT means THIS to me.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[testore]

I think pic attack is sooo important to what sound each of us produces. Even a bowed instrument sounds VERY different when two pople switch off on the same violin and bow.Each of us holds the pic (bow)in our own way.Compare tones of John Reischman and Sam Bush, then look at their respective arm positions, HUGELY different. We can learn or unlearn things that come naturally to us to an extent but I know for myself,I sound the same no matter what mandolin or violin/bow I'm playing.

[Jonathan Peck]

.....It's the best I've seen anywhere in regards to codifying sounds as best we can for an intelligent discussion that doesn't go 'round and 'round only to end up with "Oh, well THAT means THIS to me.
Most of us can make a pot of chicken soup. But when we think of Grandma's soup, we are reminded of 'the soup' that we compare all other chicken soups to. When we ask Grandma for the recipe, we may get someything like a pinch of this or a dash of that. In the end, we tend to compare a memory of a taste that we might think of as 'the soup' to all other tastes.

We've come a long way in reproducing the exact graduations and so on of certain Loar intruments, but I think that alot of us, myself included, could benefit from a defined list of terms that we can use to communicate as it pertains to evaluating a sound.

[poymando]

Jonathan,
The soup analogy is a good one! (I have my Grandma's dill pickle recipe and mine don't taste anything like hers did..)

[lgc]

I think it is more about the player than the ax. At the end of the Pizza tapes Jerry Garcia and Tony Rice both casually plat the same guitar to radically different results. Grisman could have played Monroe's mando and sound like Grisman while the reverse it also true.

[Jonathan Peck]

Ok....so what is 'the sound' that certain mandolins have and why is it so desireable? Here are a few descriptions from a past thread that I liked

""Typical" loars are mid-rangey and focused with a quick decay, ie bluegrass tone."

"..."dry, throaty mid-range *honk* and bell-like trebles"

[JEStanek]

In defining "The Bluegrass sound" do you really mean WSM's sound? #If so you want a Loar-esque tone. #It's tough to compare it with a real instrument b/c so many of those early bluegrass recordings have such low fi sound/distortion... yech in them. #

I agree with those who suggest you work on your sound and get the best sound out that you want to hear. #That can be developed by learning the techniques that those you wish to emulate use.

The soup thing has as much to do with memory as fact. #The two don't line up. #Your pleasant memories of Grandma's soup may be tinged with your age, how much soup you've really tasted and how much you loved your Grandma. #Just because you get her recipe doesn't mean your version will taste the same even if you have the exact same ingredients. #Just bacause you get Monroe's Loar won't mean you'll get his sound.

If you want to develop your technique to get tone like that I would suggest you take a workshop with Mike Compton or David Long...

Jamie

[Jonathan Peck]

I probably haven't really worded the question the right way. Alot of times you'll see someone refer to a mandolin as having 'the sound'. This would generally be a good thing...so when someone says that a certain mandolin has 'the sound', what does it mean to you?

[red7flag]

I would think your Stanley and DMM would be good candidates for "the sound." Every Stanley and most DMMs that I have played have it. As I have never played a Heiden, I would not know. I have heard nothing but good about them.
Tony

[Chris Baird]

Just when I thought I've heard it all. "The Sound" is a tennis ball hitting a wall. That's great.. I'm gonna add that to my "The Sound" collection.

[squirrelabama]

I really like Gary's point. You could make the comparison to the way people hold a pencil, and how it impacts their handwriting. If Grisman stole Bill Monroe's pencil, and quickly dashed off Bill's signature, it woudl still look like Grisman's handwriting, unless he really practiced forging.......:p

[Larry Simonson]

Jonathan asks a good question and one I'd also like to have an answer. I am wondering if it might be possible to synthesize a waveform to exactly match that produced by a reference instrument (a Loar most likely) so that one would know in detail the frequencies, phases, and amplitudes of all of the components for a small sample of notes. Then one could compare any other instruments waveform. Maybe possible to do the same with a recognized "woody" instrument and see whats defining this sound? While its true good players can extract the best tones out of any instrument, they may only get the tone they desire from a small selection of instruments, thus tone is an instrument property.

[jmcgann]

the sound has VERY much to do with a player's ability to maximize the potential of the instrument.

In other words, there's a lot in the hands of the player (or lack thereof). Much more so than most collectors want to think http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

A pearl can sound like a dog in the wrong hands!

[testore]

I guess what I mean is that "the sound" is the one you make. You can't sound like anyone else no matter what you play. There are physical things going on that can't #be entirely explained and can't be changed and that impacts everything. One BIG thing is that we don't all hear the same either.There's no way of knowing what I learned as the color red is the same color than you learned is the color red. There's also no way of knowing what someone else hears, and that is a huge factor.Don't worry about it, make your sound and if you like it great. In my case, I have long gotten tired of my sound but I chuckle everytime I string up a new mandolin.....sounds like me.There's nothing that a new mandolin can fix, I don't have the ability to make a bad sounding mandolin sound great. Maybe thats agood thing.
One more thought, there are a LOT of good sounds out there. You don't need to focus in on one.

[mandobando]

I for one think "the sound" is more the player than the instrument. I think some folks get caught up looking for the right mandolin instead of learning to play their mandolin the right way.

[f5loar]

I always liked the sound Bobby Osborne got and he did it with a '27 Fern. There are those that can get dead on Monroe sound like David McLaughlin or Mike Compton. David had a Loar, Mike did not. The sound is more than just what Monroe played. For starters in Bluegrass you need to be able to stay up and even out the mandolin sound with that of a Martin D28 or Gibson Flathead banjo. Loars have no problem doing that.

[mandopete]

A pearl can sound like a dog in the wrong hands!
Didn't you mean to say "clarinet"?

<sorry>

[Santiago]

I knew exactly what The Sound was when I first picked up the mandolin. Now that I'm familiar with the broad spectrum of sounds, it seems to elude me.

[sgarrity]

Dry, hollow, woody, mid-rangey.....once you've played a mando with "the sound" you'll know what it is. It's sooo subjective to try and quantify. We do spend a lot of time talking about our mandolins around here and hunting for the next "ONE". But that's kinda part of the fun if you ask me.....

[fatt-dad]

Back to the original post: You'd need a rattle in the f-hole also. . .

I was at the National Folk Festival and there were four mandolin players side by side. Each had different instruments and each sounded different, but similar at the same time (they were all playing F-5 style mandolins. What intregued me is what would have happened if these four guys were to have just swapped mandolins and they played the same tune again. My suspecion (sp) is that the player would have more to do with it then the instrument (well considering their pick choice, manner of grip and attack). Then again, what do I know, that's just what I think. . . .

f-d

f-d

[neangler]

Oh, com'om guys. Let's get off the Loar stuff. Bet not one out of 10,000 reading this (will there be that many?) can even dream of owning (or playing) such an instrument.

And let's get real: if Bill Monroe played a modern Fender mando, there would be no way to disguise his "sound." It would be ALL Monroe.

As for "the sound," it's the Motor City Madman ripping on a Gibson Birdland pumping through a Gibson stack cranked to 10. And no matter what he plays, there's no way to hide that "sound."

Like Duke said: if it sounds good, it is good. That's "sound" advice for all of us.

[squirrelabama]

Anyone going to share the old Charlie Parker story....the one where some guy was hounding him about what type of reeds he used?? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blues.gif

[Walter Newton]

Check out the "Tone Poets" CDs - one mando (Grisman's "Crusher"), lots of great players, many different "Sounds".

[re simmers]

"The sound." Interesting stuff. Could anyone hear the difference when Monroe was playing another mando when the famous Loar was recovering from a poker fight? Could anyone hear the difference when Rice played a Santa Cruz while he kept his Clarence White in a vault for a few years? I'm sure there will be those who answer yes. But I doubt that I could tell. But, I think 'the sound' IS the player, and the player gets at least 75% of 'the sound' from the right hand. Herschel Sizemore told me that about the right hand about 2 years ago and I believe it. Then again, Herschel had 5 Loars at the time. Regardless, some players just have that special music in their right hand. Do you think that Bush would still sound like Bush if he played Tim O'Brien's mando? Probably so. Would O'Brien still sound like O'Brien if he played Bush's mando. I would think so. This is a good topic.

[Ivan Kelsall]

"The sound" is all things to all Mandolin players,every one is different.To me personally,"The Sound" is what i'm making on my own Mandolin (or trying very hard to).
There are so many combinations of players/Mandolins,that i've given up listening for "The Sound" & just listen to "The Music" & of course the techniques used by my favourite players,
Saska

[jmcgann]

For starters in Bluegrass you need to be able to stay up and even out the mandolin sound with that of a Martin D28 or Gibson Flathead banjo. Loars have no problem doing that.

While only a fool would deny there is a difference between various instruments, mandolins don't play themselves and ain't no part of nothin' without human hands to draw out the sound http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[AlanN]

Grisman Tone Poems...'nuff said.

[sgarrity]

While I do agree that Tone Poems makes a strong point for "the tone is in your hands," you do lose a lot in a recording. #Live sound vs. recorded sound are totally different to me. #Instruments tend to sound much more similar on recordings than they do in person. #Feel free to disagree. #This is only my opinion and experience.

That being said, my little Flatiron flattop is all the mandolin I'll ever "need." #Getting to own and play others is just part of the fun! # #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[fatt-dad]

That being said, my little Flatiron flattop is all the mandolin I'll ever "need."
Yeah buddy - heard that!

f-d

[red7flag]

No matter what instrument I play I will play like me, poor me. That being said, when I play the Stanley, my playing moves more to the Monroe side of the track. When I play my White Dove, the Celtic in me comes out. I can play Monroe style on the White Dove, but it is not nearly as satisfying and the reverse is true. I know this, when I hand my Collings MF to a friend who is a great player he noodles and will go anywhere. When I hand him my Stanley he goes right to Monroe. The Stanley just asked to be played Monroe style. That is why I say it has "The Sound." I know I sure don't.
Tony

[cwtwang]

You hear it said all the time that bluegrass players love that "Loar tone" whatever that means, because few Loars sound just alike. Some Loars have great tone, some not so great--pretty awful actually.

Bill's Loar and from what I hear, Frank Wakefield's Loar are midrange heavy--not as round toned as most Loars. Mike Compton and David Long both prefer that mid-range heavy, cutting tone and had Steve Gilchrist build mandolins for them that had that specific tone that is as close to Bill's Loar as possible when it was new. You can hear "THAT Tone" in their recordings. You can hear it in Bill's recordings but since most of them were done so long ago when the quality of recording was not what it is today, Bill mandolin sounds somewhat harsher and brighter than what I imagine the reality was.

Ronnie McCoury's Gilchrist has an Englemann top and it has a different tone than Mike's Gil although it is not just the top that made the difference in tone. Ronnie's is equally as bluegrassy to my ears but smoother, rounder, and not as midrange-heavy.

Some bluegrassers look for a very bright tone in a mandolin while others look for a warmer tone--it depends on their particular style of playing. Other players get into more detail and look at the whole range of tone when choosing a mandolin both in the single notes, the double stops, and in the chop tone.

As for tone being in the player's hands, yeah I believe that has a lot to do with it, but take 10 different mandolins, all built for bluegrass and put them in Mike Compton's hands and he would have his favorites as to tone.
I've played Mike's Gil and it sounds like me when I play it, but I can still hear that it has a strong midrange pallet. It is bright but not thin bright; There is bass in the high end and treble in the bottom end if that makes any sense. It has a strong, complex tone that is also very dry that makes a nice variety of tones depending on your attack and where you pick up and down the neck to the bridge and that is the tone I believe that is so very hard to come by.

I have a Kimble and an Apitius. Both could be called bluegrass mandolins but the Apitius has a smoother, prettier, more even jazz tone to it and it is great for that warm, clear tone for modern/newgrass bluegrass but for that drier, less smooth, honking, throaty, old time bluegrass sound, my Kimble is the one I choose.

C http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[neangler]

After I posted my reply to this thread (above), I thought the same thing: check out Tone Poets. A Loar mando and a vintage Martin for the guitar. Every musician created a differrent "sound."

And what about the two-CD Bluegrass Mandolin Extraveganva? There are a bunch of Loars on that, and evey one "sounds" slightly different.

I guess "sound" ("tone") is more about the player than the instrument. I guess a lot of us just have to practice more.

[Jonathan Peck]

I am wondering if it might be possible to synthesize a waveform to exactly match that produced by a reference instrument (a Loar most likely) so that one would know in detail the frequencies, phases, and amplitudes of all of the components for a small sample of notes. #
like this? This is a waveform from drawing a bow across a violin.

"(a) Drawing a bow over the strings of a violin generates a nearly ideal sawtooth force on the top of the bridge. The force can consist of as many as 40 Fourier components, with the amplitude of the nth component decreasing smoothly in proportion to ~1/n (main figure). (b) The bridge, which transforms energy from the vibrating strings to the vibrational modes of sound box, has a response that varies with frequency. The resonances at about 3 kHz and 4.5 kHz boost the output sound, while the dip between them reduces the "nasal" qualities in the tone. © A mathematically modelled acoustic output of the violin. The output increases dramatically whenever the exciting frequency coincides with one of the many vibrational modes of the instrument. (d) The Fourier components of the multi-resonance acoustic output, produced by bowing the lowest note on the instrument at 200 Hz. The main figure shows the calculated output waveform produced by the idealized input sawtooth waveform. Unlike the Fourier components of the input, the Fourier components of the output will vary dramatically in amplitude from one note to the next."

The full article can be viewed here:
Science and the Stradivarius (http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/print/696)

[BlueMountain]

As I read your posts, I was thinking about the YouTube video I was watching this morning of Yank Rachell and Sleepy John Estes (there's a link to it somewhere else in the cafe). Yank was playing a cheap little mandolin with a cheap little pickup. HE had HIS sound, even though it would have sounded better with a better instrument. Of course, maybe the crudeness of his mandolin was part of his distinctive sound.

Certainly "The touch of the master's hand" is a huge part of how a mandolin sounds. But apart from that, I can play 20 mandolins in a row the same way and know in a few seconds which ones deserve more attention, and I can characterize the various great sounds of the good ones.

The link above to the site dealing with pickups was interesting. A lot of useful definitions. Not entirely relevant to mandolin, but some are. Interesting that they and we use some of the same terms, but we are talking about acoustic sounds, while they are talking about electronic sounds. Terms like "bark." They aren't always produced in the same way, of course.