Key signatures for modal tunes

[Walter Newton]

Is there a convention for choosing the key signature when notating a modal tune? Take something like "Red Haired Boy" in A Mixolydian - would it be correct/logical/typical to notate it with a 2# ("D") key signature rather than a 3# ("A") key signature to avoid the G natural accidentals? (This would seem sensible to me, and analagous to what's done for minor key melodies.) Or would notating it with an "A" key signature and the b7 notes explicitly spelled out be preferred...or is it a matter of personal preference?

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

Generally I've seen the tunes written out with the key signature that reflects the mode. Therefore, 2 sharps for A mixo. Usually it's custom to write music in the key signature which will result in the least accidentals.

Cheers
MRT

[twaaang]

I think it's logical to assign a key signature so that you minimize the need for accidentals along the way. #

The key signature tells you what notes are in the scale, but it doesn't specifically tell you where the tonal center of the composition is. #The notion that three sharps "means" A got planted in my head at an early age (by a sweet old lady, the local beginners' piano teacher, whose memory I revere), and it took a long time to unlearn.

For some fun, take "Red Haired Boy" as you're used to in with two sharps -- then staying in A, "drop" another sharp so you have a C natural, and toy with that for awhile -- then swap out the F# for an F natural, etc. #-- #Paul

[Celtic Saguaro]

It's the same rule as writing for A Minor which has no sharps. (Major and Minor keys are modes as well, Ionian and Aeolian.)

[Walter Newton]

2#'s makes perfect sense to me...(one) reason I asked is, to stick with the RHB example, I've got at least 4 books with the tune - all are written out with 3#'s, which led me to wonder if that was "correct" or conventional for some reason (even if strictly less logical).

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

I've got at least 4 books with the tune - all are written out with 3#'s, which led me to wonder if that was "correct" or conventional for some reason
There are people who don't consider modes; all tunes are either major or minor, possibly with some changed notes. Since A mix is closer to major than minor, they will tend to use the A major key signature. I find it rare to be at a jam and hear a tune's key being called out as "A mixolydian". Generally you just hear "A" or even "A major".

I suppose if a book doesn't include a mention of modes, then the two-sharp key signature could be misleading to the reader, so they use the three sharp to indicate tonal center of A, then force the mode with accidentals.

Cheers
Mark RT

[August Watters]

I suppose if a book doesn't include a mention of modes, then the two-sharp key signature could be misleading to the reader, so they use the three sharp to indicate tonal center of A, then force the mode with accidentals.

Exactly. That's why the most common convention (at least in fiddle-tune-land) is to assume it's either major or minor (ionian or aeolian), and use the corresponding key signature -- and then write in any accidentals (like the G natural in Red Haired Boy).

There are other worlds where modal key signatures are common -- in other words, writing A mixolydian with two sharps instead of three in the key signature. It's good to be prepared for both systems.

August W

[twaaang]

Yes, especially be prepared for both systems if you go to a source like ABCTunefinder looking for a particular tune in a particular key, and get confronted with the various different keys by which the various submitters identify the tonally identical melody. #-- #Paul

[Don Stiernberg]

What's mixolydian about Red Haired Boy?

[Walter Newton]

What's mixolydian about Red Haired Boy?
Hey Don - well with the b7 melody note the scale is A B C# D E F# G A = A mixolydian, no? #I take it the term implies something else (more) to you?

[PseudoCelt]

Shouldn't that be "A B C# D E F# G A"?

[Walter Newton]

Shouldn't that be "A B C# D E F# G A"?
Yes, thanks, I've corrected my post.

[Don Stiernberg]

Hi Walter,

I've always been confused by the term "modal" and associated terms like mixolydian.Thanks for bringing this topic up, I look forward to all the clarification that I hope is forthcoming. And forgive me if my previous brief post seemed curt, that was unintentional...

I see now the association between a flat seven melody note and the mixolydian mode, which I think can be thought of as a major scale with a flatted seventh degree. I also think of mixolydian as corresponding to the notes of the fifth chord in a harmonized major scale, the ones that serve a dominant or V chord function. So in Red Haired Boy the mixolydian mode might apply to the E7 chord(?)...

Also, the G melody note gets played while a G chord gets
played, so isn't it a root rather than a flatted seventh?

Harmonically I think of Red Haired Boy as a I-IV-V tune with a bVII chord. The G chord, like A7, moves nicely to the D chord, which of course is part of a tonic-subdominant-dominant cadence for the key of A. If this were the correct way to analyze the harmony of the tune, then notating it in three sharps also makes sense. Also, we land on A at the end of the tune, it sounds like the "home base"(difficult term for a Cub fan to use at this time...)

There was an earlier thread somewhere on "modal", but I'm still confused! Help, guys!"Cross-key"..."Minor against major"..."blues"..."mountain"...what is it? Help!August, John McGann, Mandohack, mandocrucian--Let Me Hear Ya!

Thanks again, Walter and thanks to all for your patience.

[Peter Hackman]

In Bluegrass it's quite common for the rhythm to play major chords against
a modal lead. Take Dusty Miller. Mandozine has no transcription of Monroe's version
but McCourey's version is very close to what I transcribed 40 years ago,
with A dorian (or possibly A minor penta) on the A part and A mixolydian on the B part. In such a case I find it natural to notate the whole thing with 3 sharps, although there is hardly any g# in the whole piece.

[Walter Newton]

Yes, especially be prepared for both systems if you go to a source like ABCTunefinder looking for a particular tune in a particular key, and get confronted with the various different keys by which the various submitters identify the tonally identical melody. #-- #Paul
For curiosity's sake I checked the ABC Tunefinder (http://trillian.mit.edu/~jc/cgi/abc/tunefind) for Red Haired Boy - you're right, of the 76 versions, most all in A tonality, they seem to be split about 50/50 whether notated with 2#'s or 3#'s in the key signature.

[Steve L]

There's a similar conversation going on at the Session.org website. There seems to be a number of people there of the opinion that the key signatures function is not to indicate what key you're in, but to cut down on the number of accidentals on the page. This obviously happens and makes life easier, but I feel that the key signature implies a lot of tonal and structural information about melodic and harmonic structure and movement that doesn't seem of particular interest to those folks in this regard. I feel like I'm in "Bizzaro-World".

I'm often torn about how to notate modal tunes. It doesn't take long to see one sharp in the key signature and see D triads in places where the tonic (G) would be expected to figure out it's a D mix tune. On the other hand, a D major key signature tells me the tonality is D and the presence of C naturals in the melody tells me D mix a bit faster. I can't say which is "correct". Curious to see how you folks come down on this one.

[twaaang]

Walter: right you are on the ones which identify themselves as being in A. Now look at the ones that claim to be in D (or "Dtreble", which I've never seen before) and see that most are exactly the same tune/tonality.

Eventually there are a few entries in "Dmix" which I agree with -- these are on submissions which have multiple examples in different keys on the same page, so don't judge by the first lines you happen to read.

By the way, I'm very appreciative of the contributors to ABCTunefinder, and would be sorry to find that any of this discussion has given offense. -- Paul

[mandocrucian]

I prefer to think of the modes as slight chromatic alteration of the major or (natural) minor scales. (ie. D Dorian = D natural minor with a raised 6th) See "Modes Made Easy" (http://www.mandolincafe.com/niles2.html) for a further explanation. I usually view the various "modal" notes as being coloration tones which I can choose to use or not use depending on what sort of effect I want to produce.

Sure you can think of D dorian as having the same pitches as C major, but as soon as you do that, you've diluted the thought process putting the "C" as the tonal center.

As for key signature, I can go with either have the key signature as Major (or minor) with accidentals (i.e. b7 or the #4 -lydian...) or , the signature that represents the pitch selection if the caveat (D Dorian, #or A Mixolydian, etc) is clearly stated somewhere above the 1st stave.

For the more exotic modes, or ethnic scales, it can be efficient to have a key signature that includes both ##'s and b's. #The common middle eastern/balkan/klezmer scale (known as "Freygish" in klezmer) is actually the 5th mode of the harmonic minor scale - assuming that we are still using 12TET (equal temperament). #D Eb F# G A Bb C D = D Freygish, which are the same notes as the G harmonic minor scale: G A Bb C D Eb F# G. #You could use several key signatures: 1) D minor (1 flat) with Eb and F# accidentals, 2) G minor (2 flats) with F# accidentals, or 3) 2 flats and 1# #and no accidentals.

There are other scales which do not align as well with major or minor, and the mixed signature is the better option. #In whan quarter-tones are involved, you may have half-sharps and half flat symbols in the key sig. (Find some notated Turkish music on the web, and you'll see what I'm talking about.)

However, if you want the truer more-or-less "Freygish" type scale, it involves quarter tones: D Ed (half flat; halfway between Eb and E) F# G A Bd (B half-flat) C-half-sharp D. #But descending, the pitches change a bit (like in melodic minor) to D C Bb A G F# Ed D.

Of course, if you want to go back historically to the modes as used in medieval and renaissance music, you aren't using 12TET at all. #A D dorian mode is actually the notes of "Just C Major" played from D to D. So all the microtonal differences in that system of intonation give the various modes even more character.

Either way of key signature notation is OK with me. Good for your mental flexibility.

Niles H

[jmcgann]

The word "modal" is used rather vaguely in folk music, usually to indicate anything that isn't the plain vanilla major scale. Of course, being a theory concept, it can be confusing.

ANY major scale contains all 7 modes. What makes the scale sound like a mode is

1) the note that is made to sound like "home base" or the "new tonic".
2) the chord of the moment

Lets take the most vanilla of all scales, C major (CDEFGAB). Do re mi fa sol la ti do. No sharps or flats, ever, for our purposes.

Now, play a C chord and listen to the C scale. CDEFGABC. Sounds normal...

Now, play a Dm and play the scale starting and ending on D. DEFGABCD. That's the "second mode" of C, called D Dorian. The tune "So What" (Miles Davis, Grisman/Garcia) is based around it.

Play Em and go from E to E (EFGABCDE). Notice it has a real Spanish vibe. It's called Phyrgian.

Play a C chord and play the same E phrygian line against it. THE MODE DISAPPEARS for all purposes, because your ear hears the notes against the C chord, and not the Em. What was "1" against the Em chord (E) sounds like 3 of C as soon as you play the C chord.This is why I always spout off about the importance of "Chord/melody relationship" and why tab is so weak at portraying it.

Play F and go from F to F (FGABCDEF) It's called Lydian.
Play G and GABCDEFG. That's mixolydian and the mode of "Red Haired Boy".
Play Am and ABCDEFGA. That's the 'natural minor' or Aeolian mode.
Play B diminished and BCDEFGAB. It's the locrain mode, and useful on a minor7b5 chord (not a real common fiddle tune chord!)

For each chord/mode, noodle around on the scale but be sure to center your melody around the root of the chord of the moment- to get the Spanish vibe, start and end on the E note.

"INTERVAL"= distance between notes (either a 1/2 step, which is one fret, or a whole step, which is two frets).

There are half steps between the notes E and F, also B and C. This is where there are no black keys on the piano. All the rest are whole steps.

THE SEQUENCE OF INTERVALS determines the sound of the modes to your ear.

Starting on ANY note, w w 1/2 w w w 1/2 sounds like a major scale ('cuz it IS one).

The Dorian mode goes W 1/2 w w w 1/2 w.

Y'see, it's WHERE the 1/2 step falls that determines the sound of the mode, as measured from the home base note of the mode (D for D Dorian, E for E Phyrigian etc.)

These are all known as the "church modes". The non-church modes that are used in jazz are built around a couple of other scales- melodic minor, harmonic minor, harmonic major, diminished, augmented and whole tone scales. They all have modes as well, some which are very useful indeed.

KEY signatures do indicate the KEY, but you can play within a MODE of a KEY (like Red Haired Boy for example). Once you see how the modes are derived, the lack of a sharp in the key signature for "G mixo" makes sense- if you write in the sharp, you just have to cancel it every time that F is needed!

Yes, all 12 keys have their 7 modes, so it seems like a lot, but we have two things going for us:

1) the mandolin is tuned symmetrically, so patterns retain the same fingerings from key to key (without open strings).

2) We ain't a-scared of no modes, because they are just different ways of looking at and hearing the plain ol' major scale.

[Seth Austen]

My preference is to notate tunes modally, so I'd write Red Haired Boy with 2 sharps. A klezmer tune in D freygish would contain key signature of 2 flats and 1 sharp, likewise a tune in C misheberach (like dorian w/ #4) would have the exact same key signature.

Seth

[Perry]

When I look through books of fiddle tunes for something new to try I often pick the ones that have many accidentals in them knowing that they contain some blue or otherwise "out" notes.

"Black Jack Grove" comes to mind as a tune having many accidentals even though the A & B section are each notated in two different keys. Visually it appealed to me. The G natural in Red Haired Boy would look inviting as well if notated with an accidental.



The tune "So What" (Miles Davis, Grisman/Garcia) is based around it.

Hah! I'm a big Jer fan and a big Miles fan. It's funny to see "So What" with the now seeming obligatory Grisman/Garcia reference. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Don Stiernberg]

Thanks guys!

I'm enlightened, but still confused...

Let's look at Red Haired Boy in the key of A major. That seems fair since there's a big old C# in the melody. Then later comes that G natural in the melody, which leads to the "mixolydian" designation if we consider G the flat seven of A. But shouldn't we consider it the root of the G chord which gets played under it?

Looking at John's explanation of modes in the key of C,
mixolydian can be thought of as 123456 b7 1, so indeed
A-B-C#-D-E-F#-G-A would be A mixolydian, which would then indicate the tune is in D major.

But the tune is in A. It has a tonic(I), subdominant(IV,D)and dominant(V, E7)and it begins and lands on A.

Another observation is A-B-C#-D-E-F#-G-A presents tones for an A7 (dominant) chord, which we never hear on Red Haired Boy when it is played in the key of A.

Thank you all in advance for even more patience with old Donnie. I mean none of this to be argumentative, and while I'm in no position to ask for more help, I obviously need to clear this one up. Thanks for any more light that be shone on this in hopes of reconciling these various terms...

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

A-B-C#-D-E-F#-G-A would be A mixolydian, which would then indicate the tune is in D major.
The confusion may lie in the fact that two sharps doesn't really indicate D major. Two sharps can indicate any of teh modes that have two sharps in them. They would be D major, E dorian, F# phrygian, G lydian, A mixo, B minor, and C# locrian.

The way to determine which mode is actually used (i.e., is the tune in A mix, or D major?) is to listen for the root note of the tune. Clearly Red haired boy is a tune with the root on A. But Whiskey b4 breakfast is clearly a tune in D major. Yet, both tunes use the same set of 7 notes. The melody of a fiddle tune is generally clear enough to indicate the root, but of course the chords can help as well.

A further note: I usually don't hear many people play I IV V chords on Red haired boy, but rather I IV and VII chords. The V chord (E major) has a G# which would clash with the G note of the melody. Of course, this is all in perspective of straightforward theory. If one digs the G-G# clash, then anything goes.

Cheers
Mark RT

[mandocrucian]

Then later comes that G natural in the melody, which leads to the "mixolydian" designation if we consider G the flat seven of A. But shouldn't we consider it the root of the G chord which gets played under it?

But the tune is in A. It has a tonic(I), subdominant(IV,D)and dominant(V, E7)and it begins and lands on A.

Another observation is A-B-C#-D-E-F#-G-A presents tones for an A7 (dominant) chord, which we never hear on Red Haired Boy when it is played in the key of A.

OK, what's getting in your way is that you are still thinking/analyzing a in jazz context.

You can attach (multiple) chords and chord progressions to any tune or melody after the fact, BUT, that doesn't mean that the tune was created that way.

Sure, we put in the G chord in the accompaniment, but this is a current, modern ensmble treatment. If it's solo fiddle, there is no accompaniment. Or if it is bagpipes, there's a continuous Root (or R 5th) drone. "A" is the root no matter if the important melody note is "G" or "D" or whatever. While you can extrapolate a harmony chord, that doesn't mean it was ever really there.

OK, the tune does have V7 chord. But a momentary wobble to the V (rather than the subtonic (bVII) doesn't negate the modality of the other 7-1/2 measures. It's like minor tunes, which are primarily "natural minor" for most of the tune, but there's that leading tone stuck in there to get a stronger cadence (V7-I, rather than Vm-I or bVII-I). #Same thing with the mixolydian stuff - a lot of people want the stronger resolution so they'll wobble back momentarily to the major 7 interval. And there are plenty of times the melody doesn't hit either type of 7th degree, so that it's the accompaniment which shades the sound of the tune.

While jazz may rely on 4-note chord harmony (IMaj7 IIm7 V7), that's "jazz". It's a mistake to try to force folk and ethnic music into that same harmonic context. As I said, the original harmony may have just the drone. Or maybe it relies on root-5th diads: I5 IV5 V5. A lot of this old stuff can be very ambiguous as to major or minor - the tune can wobble back and forth between using the major 3rd in phrases and the m3. But this is NOT "blues". Listen to some Nordic fiddle tunes which will use parallel major and minor. And it probably isn't 12TET either. You'll have something closer to "just tempered" intervals, especially in the 3rds, 6ths, and 7ths. But also neutral 3rds, and "sub-minor 3rds" and "sub-minor 7ths" (33 cents flat of the 12TET m3 or m7) (Just minor 3rd is 14 or 16 cents sharp, I can't remember which, of 12TET m3.)

If you really want to hear the "real Irish fiddle", you want to listen to some of the older guys/previous generation (Martin Byrnes) play, especially solo or with just percussion. It isn't the equal tempered scale. #More modern players, because they are playing with equal-tempered accompaniment instruments all the time, tend to hear/play equal temperment. #Of course this happens worldwide when fixed pitched instrument invade the culture and drive things toward equal-temperament, as frequently bemoaned #by ethnomusicologists. Fixed fret Greek bouzoukis water down the same tunes as played bon saz or oud which use the microtonal scale tones.

You are analyzing too much. Jazz is jazz and has it's conventions and rulebook. And this other stuff is different, and it is what it is. (But if you want to end up in a rubber room, try to figure out Indonesian gamelan from a western jazz perspective!) #
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Niles H

[Tom C]

This is all great theory stuff and as long as Don is confused I don't feel so bad not understanding everything said. I will break out the mando tonight and try to absorb all of this.

[David Horovitz]

# # #Looking at John's explanation of modes in the key of C,
mixolydian can be thought of as 123456 b7 1, so indeed
#A-B-C#-D-E-F#-G-A would be A mixolydian, which would then indicate the tune is in D major.

# # But the tune is in A. It has a tonic(I), subdominant(IV,D)and dominant(V, E7)and it begins and lands on A.

# # Another observation is A-B-C#-D-E-F#-G-A presents tones for an A7 (dominant) chord, which we never hear on Red Haired Boy when it is played in the key of A.
Couldn't the G chord be thought of as the IV of the IV in A Major (or subdominant of the subdominant)? This would suggest a brief tonality shift to D Major. In the B part of the tune, it does acually move from G to D, suggesting a quick resolution to that key center before shifting back to A again.

Perhaps the whole notion of A mixolydian (dorian) in traditional folk music is just another way of saying there's a shift in the tonal center as dictated by the melody.

-- Posted before I saw Niles' follow-up post. Niles' point makes a lot of sense. But it's still fun to try to put into focus one genre of music using the lense of another!

[jmcgann]

Hi Donnie-

At Berserklee they'd call the E chord "borrowed" from outside the mode- y'see, if you build the 5 chord and stick strictly to the A mixo mode, you get
EGB which is Em. However, in real life, since we never have to stick 100% to "the box", we can use what we want when it sounds good.

This "borrowing" gets the fancy name "modal interchange". It's a textbook way of saying what Duke said- "if it sounds good, it IS good".

So, strictly speaking, the tune itself is A mixo but the chordalists http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif will play A D A G A D A E A.

There's no one scale or mode that contains both the G and G# notes along with A B C# D E F# (unless you call it the bebop scale, 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 7 which is a "synthetic scale").

I applaud anyone trying to figure this out, and I disagree with Niles about the jazz point of view. It's the same damn notes whether it's Bill Monroe or Vaughn Monroe or Marilyn Monroe or Marilyn Manson http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[mandocrucian]

I applaud anyone trying to figure this out, and I disagree with Niles about the jazz point of view.

You can have football and you can have soccer or rugby. There's similarities, but they are still different games. The thought processes and evolution of various folk/ethnic music are NOT the same. A lot of western music can be viewed through a jazz mindset lens, but that doesn't mean you can make it all fit.

And when you get into the Balkan, African, and Asian stuff, it is NOT all the same notes. And, There is nothing similar bewteen jazz and gamelan. Or Thai classical music (7TET).

Now if you dealing with tunes which have been adopted and adapted by modern western music - jazz, BG or whatever. Well, in these cases, things have already been at least partially modified, so you could probably put it through the jazz lens more-or-less.

However, I've had long conversations with various expert practitioners of various folk/ethnic musics and one of the commonalities is that they say is that it is a mistake to try to explain it all from a different art genre. Talk to Jody Stecher about Indian music and get his opinion. (There are plenty of players that curse equal-temperament too.)

NH

[twaaang]

I'm finding it interesting that an array of sharps or flats evolved to "mean" specific tonalities in the way we've been kicking around. Suppose there was a time when the various clefs evolved in standard musical notation, with reference to a standardized set of tones all understood to be "natural" -- then the placement of a sharp or flat at the beginning of a line would have evolved as an easier approach than requiring an accidental to be noted each time a non-natural note was needed. Its meaning would only have been "sharp or flat this note every time", without any fixed reference to underlying tonality. There probably wasn't even any "rule" as to which order the sharps and flats appeared in.

Just daydreaming here. -- Paul

[jmcgann]

The thought processes and evolution of various folk/ethnic music are NOT the same.

Were are talkin' "Red Haired Boy", not 11/8 Balkan or Mali or Turkish or Carnatic music hee-yah! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Even I know them kinds of music ain't so chord-oriented.

"Red Haired Boy" is from the Irish tradition...which is wicked modal. And from the Western world.

Modal music can and does involve chords and chord progressions.

[Walter Newton]

Thanks to all who've replied so far, glad it seems to have turned into an interesting discussion...I can see the answer to my original question is clearly there's no one "right" way to do these things, which is cool with me - I can understand the logic behind either approach.

[groveland]

<deleted by poster for excessive whininess>