Standard notation vs tab

[mythicfish]

I think we should put it to a vote.

Roman alphabet?
Phonetic alphabet?
OK?
Oy vey!

Curt

[JeffD]

I would have thought this thread would have worn itself out by now. But in fact I have learned a thing or two in the process so I guess there is still value in it.

Hey John, have any of those other tab systems gotten any traction with serious musicians?

[mandelect]

B) A person with a 40 hr. a week job, family, mortgage, car payments etc. Loves music, plays occasional gigs. Less time to spend pursuing theory. Excellent ears."Amateur" assumed to be soulful, expressive player.

Actually John, in my case, it is highly likely that on some days I spend more time playing music than you do - can't prove it of course.

My beautiful wife and soul mate of 28 years is now seriously ill with Multiple Sclerosis, Spinal Muscular Atrophy and Epilepsy, which has caused serious brain damage. She can no longer communicate with me other than by using her sparkling green Irish eyes. In between caring for her 24/7 I am fortunate enough to be able to play, practice, learn, listen and generally ease my soul with the beautiful strains of this thing we call music.

Of course that doesn't make me a better musician than you - I bought Upslide a few years ago http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif # But the example holds true - It is likely that someone somewhere, who also happens to be non-professional, is a better musician than you. Mind you that would be a subjective observation.

[emitfo]

Here's a logical reason: Given the same level of "talent":

A) A person who isn't pursing another career, and is willing to live a hand-to-mouth existence in order to be able to eat, sleep and breathe music all day every day, to further their skills as a musician.Income is derived from playing and/or teaching music, period. Has spent many many hours learning the language of theory. Excellent ears. "Professional" assumed to be soulful, expressive player.

B) A person with a 40 hr. a week job, family, mortgage, car payments etc. Loves music, plays occasional gigs. Less time to spend pursuing theory. Excellent ears."Amateur" assumed to be soulful, expressive player.

Who do you reckon is more likely to have a well formed opinion on music? Not as a black-and-white, absolute fact, but where would yu place your money?

This hypothetical has too many holes in it to be of any use. "Given the same level of 'talent'" ---what does that even mean if it's even possible. I would never make the assumption that someone who is talented in one area, in this case music, is automatically talented in another area, in this case your "well formed opinion." Well formed according to you, me or someone else? A talented musician is a talented musician. They may have other skills as well, perhaps mechanical, perhaps in the are of thoughts or "well formed opinions"...or not.

I GUESS what is happening is people have a lot vested in their learning of music notation and thus feel the need to not only defend it but often times to covertly denigrate those who don't align themselves with those same ideas. Which is too bad. Sure, I'm guilty of getting riled up when I run into elitist attitudes and even more so from people that should know better. I can't sight read but I can and do read music and make nearly constant use of the theory but I actually consider that a short coming on my part. Paul McCartney and others don't read music and you know what? I would gladly trade my knowledge and even yours if I had that much, to play and create as much and as well as he has and does. IT'S THE MUSIC EVERYTHING else is ancillary, supportive and can be used or discarded if that is what the outcome of good music requires.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[KennyR]

I think we should put it to a vote.



Curt
We should put this to a vote.
Anybody know how to create one? Maybe Scott Tichenor can help?

[mandelect]

It is still not logical to assume that because one is not professional, one cannot have an informed opinion about music. Did you spend hours watching TV as a child John? I didn't; my father refused to have a TV in the house - we were fed a strict diet of classical, opera and organ music right from the word go, along with a smattering of jazz and folk. I rebelled and listened to rock in the late 60's and early 70's, but I've returned with a vengeance to one of the things my father gave me, a love of great music. The great symphonists, string quartets, organ music, jazz, world, folk - I love analogue synthesis too ....and I have a fair bit of knowledge about all of it. Though I'm always learning, always discovering, and forever in awe of some of the amazingly talented and creative people out there.

[jmcgann]

OK, I give, uncle! uncle! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Everyone's opinion is of equal value. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif


I can't put across a logical argument. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[jmcgann]

Hey John, have any of those other tab systems gotten any traction with serious musicians?


Not sure what you mean by "other tab systems", Jeff...the lute tab was used back in the day... do you mean the tab with circled numbers for strings and fingerings? Can't say I've seen much of it, although I use it when people pay me to transcribe stuff in tab for them and I feel it would be helpful.

I wouldn't say someone who reads tab isn't a "serious musician", but none of the serious musicians I know personally (flames off, please) use tab other than for teaching.

[mandelect]

Must dig out my copy of Upslide again http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Peter Hackman]

***sigh***
I'll enter in to the fray one last time before exiting The Thread That Would Not Die


(but then, why the defensiveness). But the thing that really ANGERS
me, is the populism of those who
write "go by whatever method pleases you, don't #listen to the snobs, etc."

The goal can never be divorced from the method. The easy way out is almost never the way in, and that applies to all learning (I'm a retired university lecturer). Therefore the proper advice is, simply, #"examine your goals".

*I would ask the same thing about you: "Why the defensiveness?" #Especially someone who maintains both notes and tab are tools. #It is ludicrous to say that one tool is inherently superior to another it is always context dependent. #It is true, you go by whatever method pleases you--that is what you have done, in fact it's the only thing any one can ever do. #I would never say, "don't listen to the snobs" I would say "listen to the snobs AND the illiterate." #
*I really don't know what "the goal can never be divorced from the method" means, if it truly mean anything. #As an ex-professor I would think you would recognize "divorcing" (strange way of putting it to my ears) different aspects of whatever is being studied (especially if it is studying studying) is part of the process of understanding anything. #Take it apart, examine it, put it back together.
*Finally we get to a point we agree on #

Examine your goals #Absolutely! #Start at the end and figure out how you got there!
Before Scott locks this thread I will submit my reply to this, as calmly as possible.

I'm not defensive; I certainly have weaknesses and limitations as a musician, but I feel no need to defend them. So it's not my style to call someone a "snob" because he has a skill the significance of which I do not grasp; neither do I #maintain that such a skill is dark and mysterious.

I'm not aware that I ever claimed that one method
(and I don't see tab vs. standard as a choice of methods)
is inherently superior, etc, etc.
regardless of context; all I've been trying to say is that standard is easier to read - and much faster to write !!!! -
than tab; I feel competent to judge that as I know #both.

(Like so many others I occasionally glance at the tab to see if it offers a fingering solution I hadn't thought of - and much too often do I realize the lack of care that went into it! Really, tab would be a much more interesting option - in certain tricky spots - #if someone could come up with a way of notating, not just fingers, but the whole hand! )

It may not appear that way to people who have only a partial understanding of notation. To be sure, as I demonstrated by example, there are those to whom notation is just a series of instructions, press that key, flatten that note, etc. They're victims #of poor education. As I'm not a musical pedagogue I can only speculate, but in too many cases it seems that #notation - of either kind - #is introduced too early or not connected with ear training
#Many reading mistakes would be avoided simply by hearing the next note.

Now I tried to broaden the context a bit, in order to explain the emotions this topic stirs up. Seems I only succeeded in stirring up a broader range of emotions.

I tried to explain that goals aren't independent of methods.

I never said that tab vs. standard is such a choice of methods; but many posts in Song and Tune Projects show that some people look for tab to just anything - instead of laying a proper foundation -
and it's natural - and sometimes helpful -
to point out that that "method" leads to very limited goals.

Also, someone looking for less inbreeding, less
mandolin-as-such, and wants to understand his instrument as part of the musical whole had better acquire either a huge pair of ears, or complement his smaller pair with the kind of theoretical understanding
that is at least facilitated by standard notation. When I was learning the guitar I felt the necessity to read not only soprano clef but also bass.
Later I studied string quartets so I had to learn C clef (which puts middle
C in the middle of one staff instead of between two staves).

I learned guitar and mandolin very differently. When I started on the guitar I had a very poorly developed ear. I became quite good at sight-reading
and transposing on the spot, and playing in just about any key
(especially E flat )
but I became much too dependent on notation, probably because sheet music was much cheaper than discs. I took me several years to liberate myself of this dependence - which only deepened the theoretical knowledge I had acquired.

When I got started on the mando 8 years later I decided to learn in a much less formal and systematic, #and much more ear-based, #manner. I've learned
a lot form records, slowing down to half speed, etc., which was slow, but a very sound investment. And I was always aided by my theoretical knowledge.
Many jazz musicians, saxophonists, drummers, bass players, also play some piano. Perhaps, to be a really good group musician on mando you must
know at least some other instrument, preferably guitar, bass, or piano.

Anyway, to simply say "do whatever pleases you is cheap and irresponsible populism. A beginner is often a poor judge of the outcome of various learning strategies - as I've noticed after teaching at Universities for 40 years.
A good teacher - and I've seen a few #- knows that his business is not to please the students, thereby conserving their weaknesses and misconceptions, #but to challenge them into realizing their potential.
You'll make fewer friends that way, but deeper friendships.

Now, Scott, you can lock this topic!

[jmcgann]

It is likely that someone somewhere, who also happens to be non-professional, is a better musician than you. Mind you that would be a subjective observation.

Extremely likely; I wouldn't doubt that for a moment, believe me. Especially depending on how you define "better musicians". There are infants now that can play faster than me.

Nowhere, no how, have I ever claimed to be a better musician than anyone, including the Shaggs. The A/B argument was meant to illustrate the simple idea that not every opinion is equally informed. I'd rather have a chief of cardiac surgery do my bypass than a resident (assuming, like musicians, they must both be drunk; the chief can probably hold his liquor better since he has more experience or he'd have lost the gig already.) http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

Very sorry to hear about your wife; I am sure your music is very theraputic for both of you. It's great that we have music in our lives, and your post gives pretty good perspective on how silly all this bickering is.

As them young'uns say: Peace Out!

[JimD]

I GUESS what is happening is people have a lot vested in their learning of music notation and thus feel the need to not only defend it but often times to covertly denigrate those who don't align themselves with those same ideas. Which is too bad. Sure, I'm guilty of getting riled up when I run into elitist attitudes and even more so from people that should know better.

What I don't get is how a orofessional (and yes, a professor) has an opinion about something that he spends his entire life considering and that is somehow "elitist attitude."

I don't know why I ever bother to post in these things.


I, for one, am fed up with the defensive attitudes displayed by some here.

[mandelect]

Okay guys; I've obviously got too much time to think here http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Just discovered that the Oud has an ancient notation system:

...Their alphabet-based notation used, for example, the letters a, b, g, d, h, w, z, h, t and I to express the musical letters for striking the ud strings named (from low to high-pitched) bamm, mathlath, mathna, zir and hadd. Moreover, scholars of music named the finger positions after the fingers of the human hand: index, middle, ring and small fingers. Therefore, they were able to identify each tone either by means of the finger positions on the string or by the alphabetical letters.

From this system we can find the letters "t", "a" and "b". How about composing a theme and variations, in standard notation, to celebrate our use of notation & tablature - using the western equivalent of the Arabic notes for "t", "a" and "b". Go on John (or Jim) you can do it - let's bring a little harmony to this thread http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[mandelect]

Okay guys, just joshing. I'll leave you in peace now http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[JimD]

A little anecdotal evidence:

I teach music theory and ear training at a northeastern conservatory. Over the past 25+ years of teaching (at various institutions) I have found that most of the players of plucked instruments (primarily guitar but occasionally mandolin, lute etc.)had to take the remedial theory and ear training classes.

This is both on the undergrad and grad levels. The occasional student of those instruments who took the regular theory course had very little experience with tab.

Just something to think about...

[mandocrucian]

according to Monty Python..... (http://www.mindspring.com/~mfpatton/sketch.htm)

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

I have a question for those who have used tab enough to feel proficient. I've never had much reason to use tab, so I never 'learned' it. When I encounter something in tab-only, I find it awkward to sightread. If a tab reader is handed a tab they had never seen (say a fiddle tune, or maybe part of a bach sonata) can they sing it at speed, first try? Just wondering.

Cheers
Mark RT

[emitfo]

I don't know why I ever bother to post in these things.

I do. It's because, like most people, you are basically and in most circumstances honest. There is a malady that those in the teaching profession are prone to becoming afflicted with: I'm the Professor/Teacher/Coach therefore I am right. Since on an almost daily basis--depending on how often a person actually teaches in front of students--this idea is reinforced on a subconscious level it is often difficult to detect. It's kind of like the opposite of an "ad hominem" argument or attack. An idea or concept or opinion is not sound(!) because of who says it but based upon the the idea/concept itself in conjunction with the environment it is placed within. I suggest to you that, whether you are subconsciously aware of this dynamic you actually recognize the need to interact on a level where there is no automatic deferment to your status but only your ideas.

To me "elitist attitude(s)" are just what I described: You should accept my analysis because I have studied this in depth or whatever. To which I reply a resounding no. The theories must have merit on their own.

We disagree, that's fine, even exalted (if you saw my now removed post you know what I mean). And by engaging our different views we MAY be able to arrive at an even better understanding. I fight passionately for what I believe in and I hope others do the same AND realize that THEY ARE ONLY BELIEFS and thus may be changed more easily than our shoes!

[JimD]

An anti-teacher bias, perhaps?

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[jmcgann]

An idea or concept or opinion is not sound(!) because of who says it but based upon the the idea/concept itself in conjunction with the environment it is placed within.

Yes, the truth is self evident. Most teachers (many of whom are 'pickers' like everyone else here, who happen to also play other styles of music), myself included, are trying to pass on the truth. Not because "we say so" or have huge egos to feed via a classroom setting (performing takes care of that monstrous job, thanks very much). There are actually lots real life experiences outside of the classroom, like years of performing, recording, touring that we draw from. It's not all "academic"!



There is a malady that those in the teaching profession are prone to becoming afflicted with: I'm the Professor/Teacher/Coach therefore I am right.

It's not elitist to know something, and pass that knowledge on. We are actually regular guys, believe it or not, and not the pompous stereotypes some of you believe us to be.

I don't look for students to defer or bow down, ever- I look for them to have open minds. I'm happy to discuss alternate views. Sometimes they delude themselves into thinking they already know everything, especially about topics they don't care about.

It sounds like you had some bad experiences with teachers. Me too. But I don't assume they are all "prone" to that jive.

This is starting to remind me of that very anti-intellectual thread from a few years back. Don't assume that because a person has a teaching post that he/she has stopped learning, has no self-awareness, or assumes he/she has The Answer. They may exist, but none of the people I know who post here resemble that remark in the slightest.

If you knew me at all, you'd realize I am one of the original "question authority" guys. But I am interested in what an "authority" has to say- that's how I learned myself!


I GUESS what is happening is people have a lot vested in their learning of music notation and thus feel the need to not only defend it but often times to covertly denigrate those who don't align themselves with those same ideas.

Would you kindly point out exactly where I "denigrated" anyone?

[JeffD]

Everyone's opinion is of equal value. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
I am an engineer. My professionalism and ability aside, the fact is that people pay me good money for my advice regarding the type of engineering I do. When I talk about engineering I tell you what I know, when I talk about mandolins, I tell you what I think.

This is true for most of us. But there are some folks some here on this board who really do know, they are paid to know. They charge a good buck to give the musical/mandolinial advice they give us for free. And there are other folks who pay that good buck to get that advice. Someone off the street wants instruction from them - hey the meter is running.

Comparitive professionalism and ability aside, that fact alone will get me to listen and take seriously what they say. It has weight with me by the mere fact that others value it enough to hand over real money to hear the same things.

Now, if some of these folks start talking about how to build an electric generator, well, then I might get exercised. And you know what - I can't say that I would be as gracious as they are with my time and energy for free, when I have paying customers banging on the door.

[emitfo]

Would you kindly point out exactly where I "denigrated" anyone?

No can do. I've had to write 3 separate, humorous but scathing retorts of various postings (on my computer's notepad) that I'm quite sure, though not specifically prohibited by the TOU, if posted would be read as such by Scott and very possibly get me banned for life. So I must bite my tongue on this whole issue unfortunately because, well I like coming here and being able to post when I am so inclined. Even now I must hold back a smart-gluteus-maximus comment!

So argue away.

I guess I'll just go play some more...so I guess things could be worse!
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[jmcgann]

Would you kindly point out exactly where I "denigrated" anyone?


No can do.

Well, you can extract them from my posts with the handy 'quote' button. If it's something I said denigrating someone, how can you get kicked off the board?

Or "no can do" because "I no said"? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Jim Broyles]

These last 2 or 3 pages have been fun to read, (except for being too late to the what got removed before it was removed http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif ) but I think I know what bugs me the most about TAB requests. A lot of the time I don't know the song, so I find it on line, give it a listen and discover that it's an easy I,IV,V song in 4/4 time. There's no reason on Earth, in my opinion, why a person who wants to be able to play that song should not be able to figure it out by ear. I have used TAB to learn passages which I couldn't come up with by myself, such as the Tele solos in "Mercury Blues" by Alan Jackson, but in all honesty, when I go to the Mandozine Tab archives and download a Tab, I play it and learn it by listening to the MIDI, not by reading the Tab. I know there are varying skill levels, but it truly seems to me that some folks are saying. "Cafe members, please open my head and pour mandolin knowledge into it."

[emitfo]

Or "no can do" because "I no said"? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

No sir, you are as guilty as anybody else. But apparently my brand of wit http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif is not considered kosher while barbs and jabs by others are okey-dokey. I think I know the game but being the one on the bottom rung I must acquiesce.

Out.

[jmcgann]

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif I thought so... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Paul Kotapish]

Oy. This thread makes my head hurt.

I haven't read anything that was denigrating or derrogatory from any of the defenders of traditional notation, but some of the responses from tab enthusiasts seem to border on the derisive--and the defensive.

It's all just personal opinion, folks, and if some folks want to back up their opinions with an indication of the pedigree and experience that went into forming that opinion, it's no reason to take offense and jump into "what-do-the-experts-know-and-who-says-you're-an-expert-anyway" mode.

Having a different opinion doesn't necessitate tearing down the other side's point of view.

I learn most everything by ear, but when I do need to lean on the written page, notation is--IMHO--a lot more straightforward and versatile than tab. And--as already mentioned--reading notation sure opens up one's horizons to printed music for other instruments where tab isn't an option (violin, flute, piano, etc.)

Just one guy's opinion.

[mandocrucian]

You know, there are (real) "teachers" and then there are guys who "show you some stuff they do".

This whole thing reminds me of playing pool. There's plenty of recreational players that will always opt to sink the easiest ball, without ever thinking whether they'll be in decent position for the next shot(s).

Then there are those who think one shot ahead. Go for the 2nd easiest shot that leaves them with another ball they have a decent chance of sinking.

Then there are the experienced players who are thinking how they are going to run the entire table.

Same analogy - thinking moves ahead - could also be used for chess.

The real teachers are thinking 10 lessons ahead of the student. It's not just what you are going to do today, but getting you ready to handle what is planned for three months from now, or where you need to be headed. The guys who "show you some stuff they do" are only thinking in terms of today, and possibly next week.

But hey, you've got it all figured out on your own, right?

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[aries753]

Personally, I like standard notation since that's what I am familiar with. Tab is kinda like the Bert Casey video for beginers. "Now press your second finger on the third fret of the second string". WHAT? did he say? By the time I translate all of that he's many measures away from me.
Now on the other hand, tab is usefull if the tune I am trying to play goes way up the neck on the E strings. Once the E changes past a high B then I have to rethink what the notes are. In that case while tab won't tell me the note it will tell me the fret to use. That makes tab a handy thing to have around as a learning tool.
At least for me anyway.:D

[Peter Hackman]

Oy. This thread makes my head hurt.

I haven't read anything that was denigrating or derrogatory from any of the defenders of traditional notation, but some of the responses from tab enthusiasts seem to border on the derisive--and the defensive.

It's all just personal opinion, folks, and if some folks want to back up their opinions with an indication of the pedigree and experience that went into forming that opinion, it's no reason to take offense and jump into "what-do-the-experts-know-and-who-says-you're-an-expert-anyway" mode.

Having a different opinion doesn't necessitate tearing down the other side's point of view.

I learn most everything by ear, but when I do need to lean on the written page, notation is--IMHO--a lot more straightforward and versatile than tab. And--as already mentioned--reading notation sure opens up one's horizons to printed music for other instruments where tab isn't an option (violin, flute, piano, etc.)

Just one guy's opinion.
"My head hurts, therefore I am".

What we see is of course the age-old phenomenon of confusing information with opinion and attacking on arbitrary assumptions because they suit one's prejudiced reactions ("elitism" because you happen to know something) etc.
What can I possibly say? "Let no such man be trusted".

MIsterT asks an important question. I've asked it myself several times. It has never been answered. It's more important to some people to go on attacking others in defense of a long forgottten cause.

When I'm being attacked or ridiculed by less informed people I often delete the post that elicited these attacks - leaving the other guy ranting at no one over nothing.

[AlanN]

When I'm being attacked or ridiculed by less informed people I often delete the post that elicited these attacks - leaving #the other guy ranting at no one over nothing.
Now, that is excellent advice. Sort of like the madman on the street corner, shouting to the world. I like it.

[mandelect]

I haven't read anything that was denigrating or derrogatory from any of the defenders of traditional notation, but some of the responses from tab enthusiasts seem to border on the derisive--and the defensive.

Personally, as a "tab enthusiast", I have no interest in deriding the traditional notationists. You see, I am a traditional notation lover too. I like my theory very much thankyou, and I love to use my ears - indeed my favourite tool has always been my ears! I would just like it to be acknowledged that all these tools can be useful, at some level, to aspiring musicians. The use of tablature would have died out years ago if no-one had a need for it.

P.S ...and as for defensive; why of course yes. Be aware though, that I am also defending the right of a musician to use standard notation, and tablature, or any method he/she might choose in order to reach his/her goals as a musician.

[August Watters]

I would just like it to be acknowledged that all these tools can be useful, at some level, to aspiring musicians. The use of tablature would have died out years ago if no-one had a need for it.

Yes, that's been acknowledged here repeatedly. No one said tablature isn't useful. I've said the opposite several times. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

John carefully explained why and how standard notation contains more information than tablature. Instead of responding to that idea, the tabbies just stated they disagreed, and started calling the dotties "elitists." There's one on every forum.

[mandelect]

Yes, that's been acknowledged here repeatedly. No one said tablature isn't useful. I've said the opposite several times.

Granted - I'm repeating myself now ....must be getting old! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Jim Garber]

You know, there are (real) "teachers" and then there are guys who "show you some stuff they do".

This whole thing reminds me of playing pool. There's plenty of recreational players that will always opt to sink the easiest ball, without ever thinking whether they'll be in decent position for the next shot(s).

Then there are those who think one shot ahead. Go for the 2nd easiest shot that leaves them with another ball they have a decent chance of sinking.

Then there are the experienced players who are thinking how they are going to run the entire table.

Same analogy - thinking moves ahead - could also be used for chess.

The real teachers are thinking 10 lessons ahead of the student. It's not just what you are going to do today, but getting you ready to handle what is planned for three months from now, or where you need to be headed. The guys who "show you some stuff they do" are only thinking in terms of today, and possibly next week.

But hey, you've got it all figured out on your own, right?

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Wonderful analogy, Niles! Puts a lot of stuff in life in perspective. I may engrave those words on my forehead.

[lgc]

Agreed, Lonestars and Lawdstahs fah all. Wicked pissah idear jmcgann.

[JeffD]

The real teachers are thinking 10 lessons ahead of the student. It's not just what you are going to do today, but getting you ready to handle what is planned for three months from now, or where you need to be headed. The guys who "show you some stuff they do" are only thinking in terms of today, and possibly next week.
Very well said.

As a kid I took banjo lessons. On my third lesson my teacher complained that he had too many students, and suggested that I might want to teach one or two of the absolute beginners.

Me: "I'm just a beginner myself, I've only had three lessons!"

Teacher: "Don't worry about it, you only have to be one or two lessons ahead of the student."

I quit after that and never went back to the banjo.

Jeff

[JeffD]

Almost every instructor at the Mandolin Symposium this year at some point talked about learning the breaks off of some record. How hard it used to be with vinyl etc. Studying at the feet of the greats (as it were) is one of the BEST ways to discover and develop your own style. It doesn't happen in a vacumn.
I agree that learning breaks off of albums is a good way to learn, and goodness knows I have done this too, but I really think there is too much of it. It seems to be what everyone wants to do.

I remember hearing Isaac Stern talking to a young prodigy violinist about this, and he told her not to emulate great violinists, but to listen to a lot of vocal music, and try and imitate the human voice.

Somewhere between studying at the feet of the greats, and devotedly emulating their licks, somewhere between those two extremes. And I think the best way to develop your own style is to listen to all kinds of music, from all kinds of instruments, and play what you enjoy hearing.


I saw it somewhere on this forum and I love it: Be yourself, everyone else is taken!

[Ted Eschliman]

Twelve pages now about TAB vs standard notation, and I don't think I've learned anything new about the "argument," or whose Dad can beat up whose, but Niles' earlier post about playing pool was one of the most profound I've read in months.

Niles, that was cool!

[JeffD]

Twelve pages now about TAB vs standard notation, and I don't think I've learned anything new about the "argument," or whose Dad can beat up whose, but Niles' earlier post about playing pool was one of the most profound I've read in months.

Niles, that was cool!
Yea, that by itself was probably worth wading through 8 of the pages.

[DMC]

'This hypothetical has too many holes in it to be of any use'

Really? Says Who? Is this your 'well informed' opinion as a professional philosopher (complete with elitists attitudes regarding valid hypotheitcal arguments?) In your own words, 'Well formed according to you, me or someone else?'

'I GUESS what is happening is people have a lot vested in their learning of music notation and thus feel the need to not only defend it but often times to covertly denigrate those who don't align themselves with those same ideas.'

Yeah. But substitute 'music notation' with 'tablature' and that 'GUESS' is even better...

'Sure, I'm guilty of getting riled up when I run into elitist attitudes and even more so from people that should know better'

Me too. Especially those who use the structure and jargon of informal logic in order to try and bolster the soundness of otherwise weak arguments.

'To me "elitist attitude(s)" are just what I described: You should accept my analysis because I have studied this in depth or whatever. To which I reply a resounding no. The theories must have merit on their own'

Of course. This is a trivial point which, if you read the posts carefully, no one is denying. The 'theory' in question is the idea that standard notation contains more information than tab. Where has anyone claimed you should accept this theory on face value due to the 'depth of their study'? Attack the theory itself i.e. the various, LOGICAL reasons given by those for holding this BELIEF http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[jmcgann]

<Comment removed. Violates board posting guidelines>.

[Mike Bunting]

Since this thread began, I have learned to read notation.

[RobP]

Ok everyone... think of all the practice time y'all have spent on this discourse http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Cheers,

Rob

[Paul Kotapish]

The 'theory' in question is the idea that standard notation contains more information than tab. Where has anyone claimed you should accept this theory on face value due to the 'depth of their study'?
Sinebar's orginal post asked a simple question:

QUOTE]I know standard notation pretty good. So should I stick with standard notation and learn to apply it to the mandolin or would it be better to use tab?[[/QUOTE]

There was nothing in the post about which format contains more information. That particular slant on the question has evolved over the last 12 pages.

Lots of folks with a lot of experience have offered a opinions about which was the more useful format, and those opinions were based on a lot more than which format contained more information.

I don't think anyone has done a serious pedagogical comparison to see which format is the better tool for conveying musical ideas in print. Until we put a million mandolin-playing monkeys in a room with tab and another million monkeys in another room with notation and see which room learns the Bach partitas faster, we probably can't determine that particular point beyond anecdotal experience.

However, the professional teachers in our little community seem to concur that the notation is--at this moment, anyway--the more fluid, expressive, and versatile tool for jotting down musical ideas and conveying them on paper to other musicians.

But setting aside the particular efficacy of tab versus notation as applied to the mandolin, there are other important reasons for choosing to learn notation and how it applies to the mandolin instead of learning only tab.

Not least of these is the fact that there is an enormous repository of potential mandolin music that is available only in notation. For anyone interested in classical music, jazz, or traditional music from almost anywhere, the ability to read notation will open up far more repertoire than the relatively thin smattering currently available in tab.

Just one guy's opinion.

[DMC]

Yes. Well put.

I was referring to an argument that arose during the development of this thread. I should have made that clear.

I believe notation has the potential to convey more information than tab but that tab definitely has its uses. My point is merely that my belief isn't based on a simple appeal to authority. And no one (as far as I can tell though I'm not gonna read the whole thread again!!) has suggsted we should accept this view simply because they are a professional player or teacher.

Should have also wrote, like you, that this is just my opinion.