Breaking unwritten classified rules?

[Bob Wiegers]

I've never bought anything from the ads, but I'm a faithful reader. recently something popped up that I just couldnt resist. I replied to the ad and said so, and said I need to get "clearance" for the purchase. I emailed with questions and he replied promptly.

my wife rocks, so it didnt take long to get approval (with a pledge to not buy more gear for a while). I emailed the guy again and said please send pics, if it looks good I'll buy it. he said he'd send the pics that night. then he said he'd send the pics the next day. in the morning he said sorry it's sold.

does anyone else think this isnt quite right? (or to put it another way...what the ****?!) I expressed my displeasure, but he never replied. sorry for the vent here, but this guy just guaranteed that I wont be looking his way when I'm ready to buy again.

[delsbrother]

You snooze you lose. Don't worry, there'll be another one along shortly. Plus you already have clearance!

[John Flynn]

Right or wrong, it's a free marketplace, which unfortunately means free to be a jerk. Etiquette is a myth nowadays. I just got finished with a job search that thankfully was very successful. But it still sticks in my craw the outfits who said, "We're interested, you're on our short list and we'll call you one way or another by Friday" and I never heard them again. It hurts, but it's the way of the world. But no biggie, there's always another job to get or another mandolin to buy.

[Stephen Perry]

Everybody screws up. I got yelled at for not getting images out recently. It takes time. I had to choose between filling real orders, cooking for my family, tending to my wife, and taking pictures for someone. Pictures lost. People forget, too. Pretty easy to do. Apparently the person willing to buy without pictures won!

[Brady Smith]

Yep...don't see the problem...not so hot to be in your shoes but he obviously had someone else interested as well.

[EdSherry]

Personally, I don't see how the seller could have been in the wrong (or a "jerk") for not holding the instrument for a potential buyer who indicated that he was not willing to commit to buying the instrument without seeing pictures (which, as Stephen says, take time/effort to collect and send). #

If the seller had said "I'll hold it for you until I send pics and you get back to me," that would be one thing. #But that's not what I understand happened.

Would I (as a potential buyer) be disappointed that the seller sold to someone else? #Sure. #Would I (as a potential buyer) think that "he done me wrong"? #Probably not, at least not given the way the communications have been described.

[JeffD]

Its a grey area. I think the seller should have mentioned he had others really interested and that while you can get clearance, he couldn't hold it for you. Not hearing that you were taken by surprize. Which always feels bad.

But I think it is a matter of etiquette perhaps, but not ethics.

[Ivan Kelsall]

I've been bitten like that a couple of times (in the dim & distant past) before i got wise to the fact that if a seller has a firm customer (or thinks he/she has), then they'll continue to advertise JUST IN CASE the firm customer bunks out. Houses for sale are typically left with a FOR SALE sign outside,even though there's a sale going through.
It's all a matter of safeguarding the potential to sell whatever it is you're selling.
It's a bit hard on us potential customers,but that's life !,
# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #Saska

[mrmando]

I held an instrument for a guy who called me and said he was ready to send a check. Then another person asked about the instrument. I said, "Sorry, it's on hold." This was a month ago, and I still haven't seen that check! Meanwhile the second person bought another instrument.

I'm a sucker, so I might hold another instrument for someone else. But not for that first guy again.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Martin,you're living proof that sellers get bitten too,possibly more than buyers. Usually a buyer has more than one choice on any item he/she wishes to buy - the seller is stuck with his goods while the 'prospective buyer' is still looking around,hoping to find something 'better',cheaper.
I'd hold something for a prospective buyer for a limited period,say a week, in which they can either come along & view the goods OR,if they want to buy 'goods unseen',then until they get the cash,cheque etc. to me,
Saska

[swampstomper]

I had a good experience with Matt Umanoff, even though I didn't get the mando. He told me up front another buyer had put down a deposit, and he was holding it for two days. So I knew exactly where I stood. Meanwhile I was first on the list in case the buyer didn't come through, which he did. An A9 for $900, I thought it was a pretty good deal! But Umanoff had committed to the first buyer with a specific deadline. Of course it's easier for a dealer with many instruments than a private seller with one.

[latentaudio]

Cash (or Paypal) in hand beats "Let me think about it."

I've been on all sides of this equation: Holding something for someone who says they are going to buy "for sure" and I never hear from again. And me personally thinking about something before I buy and missing out on the deal of the century.

It sure feels bad when you miss out on a deal. Playing around on that big auction site had taught me if you snooze you lose. Both in buying and selling.

[emitfo]

It looks to me like most of the replies to this post were seen through excessive personal filters. It was never said that the seller was the scum of the earth or the 2nd reincarnation of Hitler, he said:


I emailed the guy again and said please send pics, if it looks good I'll buy it. he said he'd send the pics that night. then he said he'd send the pics the next day. in the morning he said sorry it's sold.

and


does anyone else think this isnt quite right? (or to put it another way...what the ****?!) I expressed my displeasure, but he never replied.

The seller said he's send pics 2x times but didn't indicate any extenuating circumstances (based upon the post) then the unrequited buyer said he didn't think that was quite right, expressed his displeasure and got no response. That looks like 3 strikes and you're out to me. The potential buyer goes on to say that he'll never consider that person again for any purchases in the future. Once again, that seems fair to me--if you're treated like sh*@# then it's your job to not allow that process to be repeated--at least with yourself. Certainly the seller has an obligation to themselves to ensure the product is sold in a timely manner to the person who shows the cash but that does not absolve them of the responsibility to being forthright with the other potential clients. Unfortunately the world is large enough that people can act like that and get away with it...for awhile. In a small town that kind of behavior would guarantee a failed business but on the internet you might get away with it for awhile...or you might not.

[Big Joe]

In the business world there is an old saying that goes like this: "Cash talks, BS Walks". It is unfortunate you did not have the opportunity to make an offer but on the other hand, he sold it to someone else first. This is not bad business practice, just business. Whether he hand another buyer on the hook or not, he sold it before the photos got to you. It may hurt your feelings, but it is not unfair.

I would generally NOT hold an isntrument for anyone without first having a real deposit in hand. That protects anyone in the loop. I would not ship an instrument until the instrument was paid for in full. This whole process need not take long. The last instrument (personal) that I sold the buyer transferred the funds from his bank to mine in a matter of a couple hours. I shipped the instrument that same day and he had possession the next day. Everything worked very smooth. Everyone was protected and both of us ended up very happy in our business transaction. I WOULD NOT hold anything for someone while they got permission to purchase from someone else. I can understand wanting a bit of time to consider the transaction, but if you are not ready to pull the trigger right then I don't want to hold it for you to think about and lose any potential sale from someone else who is ready to buy now. In the business world this is a buy now world and not even small towns are going to let you have time to get permission before they hold something for you without a deposit. That wasn't done in the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's 90's or in this century. At least not by anyone who stayed in business very long. If they agreed to hold something with no deposit and you did not take it at that time, they only held it because no one else flashed the cash first.

Of course, there are always exceptions to any story, but as a standard business practice the guy did the right thing. Sorry you lost out, but there are plenty of other mandolins to buy and next time I'm sure you'll be ready before you contact the seller.

[Bob Wiegers]

I've since cooled off a little and I do realize that the guy did what was best for himself, which is fine, and I even told him so.

but as in most things in life, it's the WAY you do it, not exactly what you do.

either way, I'm a firm believer that everything happens for a reason (aka providence) and I've since realized I shouldnt be buying anything right now anyway.

[Brad Weiss]

I think if the seller had simply said, "I have other interested buyers, too" he'd be completely in the right. Even as it stands, if you say "I might be interested" and in the interim between "send me some pictures" and receiving the pictures, someone says "I'll take it" it seems to me they paid for what you were- as fas as the seller knew- only thinking about buying.

[AlanN]

In retail (which this classifieds forum certainly falls into), these are common:

returns
complaints
backed-out deals
smooth deals
hemming and hawing

It's a tough bag.

[fredfrank]

I've always subscribed to the old adage: it's easier to obtain forgiveness than it is permission.

Buy first, get clearance later.

As far as I can see there was never a commitment to buy the item. "I'm interested but I have to check with someone else" and then "Send photos and if the photos look good I'll buy it" are not commitment to buy.

When I'm selling I never say "I've got someone else interested" because used car salesmen do that and I hate it. When I'm buying I never ask the wife until I'm sure I want the item. Get the photos first, beg the wife, tell the seller "I'll take it."

[BlueMountain]

I've both bought and sold instruments on the MandolinCafe classifieds, and I think they are great.

But here's a little info from the seller's perspective that might help.

1. Some sellers aren't very comfortable with e-mail or writing anything at all, and some don't know how to post or send photos.

2. Some ads draw only a few responses, or one, or none at all. Those sellers are more likely to respond promptly and do what they say they'll do. However, even then, of those few responses, some potential buyers are offering full or partial trades, some are asking questions, some are offering less money. It can be hard to keep track of everyone. And when telling other bidders that the instrument has sold, it's easy to miss someone.

3. Then there are the mandolins that are so desirable that the seller gets fifty or more offers in a day. Some of those people write several times. This is more than most people can deal with. It becomes very difficult to remember who is who, who is offering what. And it's difficult to contact everyone to say the sale is made. (Easiest done on the classified, but it's also easy to forget.) Have mercy on these people. They are bound to mess up in replying.

4. Sellers: Have your photos ready BEFORE you advertise, and put one one your ad. Be ready to send photos at once.

5. Sellers: If you can take PayPal, you are much more likely to make a fast sale, and everyone is happy. The fees are NOT very high (usually less than the shipping).

6. Buyers: Money talks. If you write me to ask questions or ask for more photos, and the next guy offers me less money or a trade, and the third guy writes and says, "I'm ready to pay your asking price by PayPal right now--call me," who is going to get the mandolin? :Yup. Not you.

I've written to a couple sellers and never received a reply. So it goes. No big deal.

What I'm more concerned about right now is the two deadbeat buyers on eBay who "purchased" two instruments from me last weekend, but haven't yet responded. I don't like losing $1,600 in sales to that kind of low-life.

[Danny Clark]

i think all can agree when you post an add you always get several tire kickers,i have lost several sales in the past for holding an instrument with out getting a deposit,
i still believe if your truly interested you,ll pick up the phone and ask to place it on hold .

[ilovemyF9]

Welcome to the World of BUSINESS!!

[Santiago]

I don't think the seller did anything wrong, but I hope the real buyer was smart enough to insist on pictures, or maybe see it in person. I don't know why someone would sell anything of value without at least a photo of the item. That's a basic courtesy. Steve at Gianna above, obviously is facing unusual circumstances, but he normally posts photos. Me, I would NEVER buy (or sell) something of value without at least a photo, and I get annoyed when someone says they'll show photos to serious inquiries. If you're selling something online, you should learn how to post images. That's just a courtesy today, and if etiquette a thing of the past, I'll do business with someone else. It's my money. Caveat emptor.

[arbarnhart]

I applaud you for asking for community feedback without naming names (no, it wasn't me http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif ). I am another in agreement that the seller did little wrong except failing to come through with pictures as quickly as expected. When I sell things on the net, I don't tell people where they stand unless I have a deposit or I am holding something for someone to look at until a specific time. It's not being dishonest; I don't know where they stand. I have no way of knowing which of the seemingly interested parties I will never hear from again (a pretty significant percentage).

[Celtic Saguaro]

I have to agree with the seller. Saying you want pics doesn't mean you've got it on hold. If someone else is willing to pay before you do, that's just the way it goes.

[otterly2k]

Agreed that the seller should (ideally) have responded with pics more quickly. But I don't think that any "unwritten classified rules" were broken. I think this falls solidly in the camp of imperfect communication, in both directions.

[Santiago]

When you sell something on Ebay, you HAVE TO sell it on Ebay. While I think you're generally doing business with a safer crowd here, people will sell out the side door while you're trying to get photos. NOT having photos in an ad puts online buyers at a disadvantage over other methods, and I would recommend to Scott that pictures should be a minimum requirement for classifieds. It puts someone in a good faith situation that they've gone through the trouble of taking these classifieds seriously. Not all buyers are seriouss either, but you will get more serious shoppers here than other sites.

[Philip Halcomb]

I have to agree with the seller. Saying you want pics doesn't mean you've got it on hold. If someone else is willing to pay before you do, that's just the way it goes.
I can see both sides of this though. I've sold a few mandolins off the classifieds and when someone contacts me with sincere interest, I usually hold the instrument until they come back with a commitment or offer to purchase, or turn it it down. Then I move to the next email and work with that person. I just do that as a courtesy, I don't believe everyone should do the same thing, but I just think it's the polite thing to do. Of course people that just ask for pictures and don't say anything else, I assume they just want a look and I don't hold the instrument for them unless they express sincere interest as well.

[Lee]

One way around the delemma is to clearly say, "I am interested. Am I the first one your list right now? If I am, may I please have the first right of refusal if someone else comes along?"

The first sentence is a statement, but not a promise. The second and third sentences are yes/no questions that will clarify the situation.

[arbarnhart]

When you sell something on Ebay, you HAVE TO sell it on Ebay. While I think you're generally doing business with a safer crowd here, people will sell out the side door while you're trying to get photos. NOT having photos in an ad puts online buyers at a disadvantage over other methods, and I would recommend to Scott that pictures should be a minimum requirement for classifieds. It puts someone in a good faith situation that they've gone through the trouble of taking these classifieds seriously. Not all buyers are seriouss either, but you will get more serious shoppers here than other sites.
Actually, that is not correct. If you buy something on eBay you are bound, but sellers have wiggle room. That is for good reason; volume sellers sometimes have an inventory problem and list something they think they have but don't and eBay does not require exclusivity. It's against their rules to take an ebay contact and sell to them outside eBay, but the sellers who have physical store fronts can list something on ebay that is available in their store and cancel if it sells. Some sellers do seem to abuse it though.

[pickinNgrinnin]

I don't understand why sellers bother with sending pictures. It's much easier to set up your pictures on site like
Webshots, Picasa, etc. Webshots also allows you to enlarge the pictures so you can see great up close detail.

Having a purchase fall through because you were waiting for the pictures can be easily avoided if the seller posts his/her pictures online.

[MikeEdgerton]

As easy as you and I may think it is, it's a challenge to a person that has less experience.

[Paul Kotapish]

Hey Bob,

I understand your frustration, but I agree that this was nothing to get too bothered about. Most of the sellers in the Classifieds here are just trying to move an instrument or two because they are strapped for cash. Most are not professional instrument purveyors and they don't necessarily have the experience to handle all the possible scenarios that a potential buyer might toss their way.

The seller could have handled it a little more gracefully, perhaps, but given the time frame, I don't think he did anything out of line.

Just one guy's opinion.

PK

[Steve L]

NOT having photos in an ad puts online buyers at a disadvantage over other methods, and I would recommend to Scott that pictures should be a minimum requirement for classifieds. It puts someone in a good faith situation that they've gone through the trouble of taking these classifieds seriously.

I don't agree with this at all. #No one is under any obligation to look at or respond to these ads. #I probably wouldn't buy without photos but that's between me and the seller.

[mandolooter]

Guilty as charged! I've been on both ends and understand the frustation on both ends. Last mandolin I sold I recieved about 45 requests for pic's...1/2 of those after I have it shipped out for approval and stated that in my ad. I felt bad but I got over it. Its a time consuming task and I was out of time for the most part. I like the classifieds just the same and it's such a nice and FREE service that causes the Super Admin's a lot of headaches that they are nice enough to put up with for our benefit. Thanks!!!

[lawdawg]

Hey - if it was meant to be it would have been. I bet you find a better fit in the future. I missed several deals in the past only to later find a better instrument at a better price.

[Dan Cohen]

I sold a Price mandolin case on the Cafe Classifieds in the past year. #One of the calls was exactly the scenario that BobW describes. #I was running around Manhattan hectic all day and getting various calls on the case. #One caller had to check with his wife and I was going to send pics the next day when I got back home. #In the meantime another call came in and the gent agreed to buy it. #The next day I told the guy who had to check with his wife that it was sold and he was really pissed at me.

I said that I was sorry and but I didn't feel that our communication rose to the level of commitment on either of our parts. #He was not consoled. #I would do the same thing every time unless I had told the first caller that I would hold it for him. #I felt that he was completely onesided and a bit irrational with his anger at me.

[Walter Newton]

Unless you have some explicit arrangement that it's "on hold" for you for a certain time period, I see nothing wrong with the seller selling to first person with "cash in hand" ready, willing and able to buy.

[fatt-dad]

I called a guy on a car one time - it was still for sale and told him I was driving over to look at it (it was a car for some reason I really wanted - a Rover tc2000). By the time I drove to his house some other guy bought it. These things just happen.

f-d

[JamesBryan]

In-demand instruments will move fast. I'd say that if you're not ready to put at least a deposit down, don't expect that the instrument will still be there in the morning. Better to have ducks in a row before shopping. JB

[Don Grieser]

Well, I have some stuff for sale on the classifieds and I just sent responses and photos to people who inquired only to get a message that my emails have been rejected by their spam filters. So I'll be the jerk on this one and they'll never know I tried to respond. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[MikeEdgerton]

Well, I have some stuff for sale on the classifieds and I just sent responses and photos to people who inquired only to get a message that my emails have been rejected by their spam filters. So I'll be the jerk on this one and they'll never know I tried to respond. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
Not in my book. Edit your ad at the bottom and make mention of them by their first names and say their e-mail was rejected.