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Mandodocta
May-28-2004, 10:58am
I’ve been quietly watching these boards for several years. I’ve seen the same myths about mandolins perpetuated so many times that it was starting to drive me crazy. For my own sanity, I’d like to attempt to take a hammer to those myths.

One of the discussions that I see over and over, in various permutations, is the debate over which sounds “better” or more appropriate for bluegrass, and F style or an A style mandolin. Here’s the truth on that endless debate:

An F style mandolin has significant structural differences from an A style instrument. Significant structural differences result in the production of a unique waveform. A unique waveform sounds different. The bottom line: an F style mandolin has a different sound than an A style. Case closed, this is sound logic, and I think we all really know it anyway.

To say an F style instrument sounds different, however, is not the same as saying that it is a better or more appropriate bluegrass instrument. To be an effective traditional bluegrass instrument, an instrument must have one essential characteristic: the ability to distinguish itself from a guitar, fiddle, base, and banjo. There are two variables and two variables only that determine a mandolin’s ability to distinguish itself from other instruments: a) volume and b) unique tonal characteristics or waveform. There is no objective evidence to suggest that a good F style mandolin is either louder, or more tonally unique than a good A style mandolin. The first issue, volume, could be easily tested in a scientific manner. To those who might be brave enough to maintain that an F style mandolin is louder, I challenge you to prove it.

Bluegrass musicians are the salt of the earth, and I love ‘em. But my experience is that they are often heavily biased, narrow minded, and rigid when it comes to instrument style, construction, and country of manufacture. I strongly believe that if Bill Monroe had played a mandolin designed and shaped like my a**, that musicians the world around would be coveting mandolins that looked like my butt.

Which brings me to another myth: that Americans build better mandolins than our brothers in Japan, Korea, and China. To those that perpetuate this myth, I ask: who decides what is “better?” What is “better” depends on what you value. As noted above, the only genuine criterion for a “good” mandolin is the ability to distinguish itself from a banjo, fiddle, bass, and guitar. For some, “better” might imply “sounds the most like The Instrument Bill Monroe Played.” For me, it might be “looks the most like my butt.” For others, it might mean “the best sounding instrument that my meager salary will allow.” But beyond ability to distinguish itself from other instruments, “good, better, and best” are highly subjective terms. Whether you like it or not, there are fine Asian luthiers making “good” instruments by their own standards. And the bias toward “made in America” just doesn’t fly with me regarding mandolin. How many great violin players do you know who play American violins? Trust me, a Stradivarias (help me with spelling) wasn’t made in Kentucky. Beyond the objective arguments presented here, the American bias has always, I believe, contained a trace of covert, sometimes overt, racism. Interestingly, one would think that the tradition of bluegrass would most likely say, “pick up whatever instrument you got and play it.” The elitism, and cultural elitism that has developed is not, I believe, reflective of the true spirit of bluegrass.

Which brings me to yet another myth: that characteristics of the instrument are more important than the technique of the player. We give way too much credit to the instrument and not enough to the player. A great player can make an average instrument sound great. In giving so much credit to the instrument, we mistake the plate for the meal. If you are considering trading your Kentucky for a Gibson, I’d suggest you at least consider saving the money and getting good instruction, and then practicing like crazy. Save some money and go buy your wife/husband and kids something that will make them happy.

So I have always felt that anybody offering opinions on quality of instruments should begin by stating what instruments they own. “The Kentucky mandolins are better than the Washburns” usually translates to “I own a Kentucky, therefore it must be better.” In this spirit, I should share that I own a Silver Angel A style, a Mid-Missouri M-2, a 1983 Japanese Washburn M-4S, and a Fender FM-63S. The Silver Angel A sounds the most like The Instrument Played By Bill Monroe, but it’s not the best instrument by my own standards. The best is a toss-up between the Mid-Mo and the Washburn. The latter, while lacking strong volume, has the nicest, most playable neck that I’ve ever seen—it’s like it was perfectly designed for my own hand. I can play for hours without fatigue, and that is valuable to ME. The Mid-Mo makes me smile the most. It’s just loveable, and sounds shockingly good for an inexpensive instrument. And it does quite well in distinguishing itself from other instruments, even though it has (GULP) a flat top. In other words, it has good volume and unique tonal characteristics. And for those that are wondering, the Mid-Mo also looks the most like my butt.

One last suggestion for the poor souls who, in considering purchasing a new instrument, ask folks here for their opinions: DON’T BELIEVE ANYTHING ANYBODY TELLS YOU. The information you get will be highly subjective, biased, and ultimately, unhelpful. If you are serious about a new purchase and want to get the “best” instrument possible, you have one choice and one choice only: go out and play each and every mandolin that you are considering.

John Zimm
May-28-2004, 11:04am
Yikes, this sounds like fodder for a long, drawn-out flame war. Run, my fellow mandolin enthusiasts, run. Don't yield to the temptation.

-John.

mandofiddle
May-28-2004, 11:11am
Wow, what a post from a first time poster. Obviously all of us veteran posters know absolutely nothing...

Big Joe
May-28-2004, 11:32am
Boy, I'm now educated. Maybe we should close shop and import our product??? Everyone is entitled to an opinion, no matter how right or wrong. I could take umbrage with much of what was said but it would matter not. It would not change anyone's mind and all it would do is get some upset. I'm glad we live in a free society where we have the privelege to post what we like. Welcome rjh.

Hondo
May-28-2004, 11:36am
I was going to suggest that you post a picture of your butt, but I guess I don't have to since I, too, own an M-2.

But I swear that my M-2 does NOT resemble my butt! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

BenE
May-28-2004, 11:39am
To be an effective traditional bluegrass instrument, an instrument must have one essential characteristic: the ability to distinguish itself from a guitar, fiddle, base, and banjo.

Wanna buy a kazoo? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Bruce Evans
May-28-2004, 11:39am
And for those that are wondering, the Mid-Mo also looks the most like my butt.
Please, rj, never, never, NEVER post us a picture of your MidMo.

NEVER

chris
May-28-2004, 11:57am
Cool!! #matchs and gasoline all in one post, # Yes, Bill is bluegrass and yes, a Loar is the best sounding mando. Now what mando did we say sounds most like a Loar?

Mandodocta
May-28-2004, 11:59am
Wow, had to go back and reread what I wrote...seems people are replying to another post.

Buckley: Yes, run for your life! Danger, danger! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Mandofiddle: I looked everywhere, but could not find out where I said veteran posters know absolutely nothing. I certainly don't think that.

Big Joe: Not sure why you think I'm suggesting you close up shop and import mandos. Gibsons are often great instruments, but they aren't the holy grail. There's a place for them all. I'd hate it if Gibsons were not one of the options for players. The message of my post is that there's room for everybody and lots of types and styles. It's hard for me to understand why that would (apparently) offend you.

While I don't own a Weber, he is one of my favorite mandolin builders. In a much more eloquent manner than I'm capable of, he has shattered many of the mandolin myths, one by one. "Can't have a flat top? How 'bout this one?" "Can't have mahogony back and sides? Well, this one I just made sounds ok..." "Can't have an oval soundhole...hm, lookie what I just did, and this one sounds nice." I love it.

For all who were worried, I will not post a pic of the mid-mo!

And yes, theoretically a kazoo could be a functional blue grass instrument. It just doesn't happen to have 8 strings. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

May-28-2004, 12:00pm
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ, dang that was a long rant. I think the guy is a disgruntled proctologist. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

BenE
May-28-2004, 12:05pm
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ, dang that was a long rant. I think the guy is a disgruntled proctologist.



You know what you call a Jamician proctologist?

Pokeman!

May-28-2004, 12:07pm
ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

mandofiddle
May-28-2004, 12:12pm
One last suggestion for the poor souls who, in considering purchasing a new instrument, ask folks here for their opinions: DON’T BELIEVE ANYTHING ANYBODY TELLS YOU. #The information you get will be highly subjective, biased, and ultimately, unhelpful.
My issue stems from this statement. While not saying directly that the posters here don't know anything, it certainly is implied. Myself as well as many others on this board give the best advice we can regarding people asking questions on buying a new mandolin. From my experience, I wish I knew about this board before I bought my first. It would have helped me tremendously.

May-28-2004, 12:25pm
BenE... Your a hoot http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Mandodocta
May-28-2004, 12:27pm
Oh, sorry mandofiddle. I should have added a smiley face with that last segment of my rant. (Glad you woke up to reply, Dale!) It was really supposed to be a bit tongue-in-cheek, as I too have found good advice at times. And yet there is a lot of bias and closed-minded thinking to wade through. I guess that's just human nature. But I really stand by the ultimate advice: play the instruments you are interested in! It's by far the best source of data and information!

250sc
May-28-2004, 12:30pm
Well, I agree with the suggestion that a perspective buyer should play any instrument before they commit to the purchase, even if the model and make of the instrument is highly regarded. (No guarantee that any two will sound the same.)

mandodude
May-28-2004, 12:32pm
C'mon, now... who is this really?? I know that "Mandodocta" has to be one of the usual "pranksters" settin' us up here... kinda like sumpin' to "stir the waters" leadin' into the holiday weekend (for us in the USA at least), right?

Gigs up, buddy! Fess up...

Mav, is that you?? Are you agitatin' again?? Whooo-BOY! Good one!

C'mon, now... Nobody would crawl out of the woodwork like that and on their very first post proclaim to have the Pipeline to the Truth, right??

I know! It's Dale, right?? Dale, buddy... you settin' us up here?? You're "Mandodocta," right??

C'mon... somebody fess up!! I mean, If somebody was really peekin' in at our little community for "several years," slowly being driven "crazy" by what they've seen here, why on earth would they have kept on comimg back, right?? No sir! - this has gotta be a joke!

Mandohack, you doin' this?? Are you "Mandodocta?"

Here's the dead-giveaway... all that "butt talk!" Who's gonna take someone's opinions seriously when they reference their own butt no fewer than three times (did I miss any?) during their attempts to "educate" us!? Man, what a joker!!

Wait a minute!... I got it!!

Django Fret, you ol' dog, you!! I'll bet we're gonna soon be seein' pics of your "MidMo Butt," right, buddy?? Boy, you had us goin' there for a while!

It's a joke, I tell ya! Nobody would go through writin' all that just to get to the point where they could sneak in the part about owning four mandolins, almost as though there's supposed to be some sort of correlation between the validity of their opinions and the number of instruments they own!

Moose!! It's Moose, right?? You pullin' our leg, Moose??

NO SIR! You didn't fool this ol' 'Dude!! Why, If I didn't know better, I'd have thought that I was "Mandodocta" ('cept that there was no mention of any former bands throughout the whole post!)!

Boy, this is one of the best jokes yet... and to think we'd actually believe it's a real post! Good one, whoever you are!!

Boy, who could it be?? Who's got a history of pullin' the wool over our eyes?? Who could be that conniving, that cunning, that...........

...OH MY GOSH!!





SCOTT!!

Scott, is that you?? Are you "Mandodocta??" Boy, you did fool us back on April Fool's Day with your "Monroe's Mando goes to Japan" thing...

...are you doin' us again, Scott??

;-)

Mandodocta
May-28-2004, 12:43pm
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Scott Tichenor
May-28-2004, 12:44pm
I admit it. It's really me.

Scott Tichenor
May-28-2004, 12:52pm
I admit it. It's really me.
...or maybe not.

GVD
May-28-2004, 1:12pm
Scott Tichenor
Quote (Scott Tichenor @ May 28 2004, 13:44)
I admit it. It's really me.

...or maybe not.

Oh no. I hope this isn't gonna be like when Mav, or maybe not Mav, did that whole Glen or Glenda gender bending thing. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

GVD

May-28-2004, 1:14pm
Hey I forgot about that... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Maybe we need to get her input on this matter http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Also her name was Tabatha I believe. or was it Pat?

BenE
May-28-2004, 1:18pm
Pat?

May-28-2004, 1:21pm
this guy never made it to the picture pages. I am trying to get this guy added to the Southpark Cartoon..

I present to you Billy F Holes..
A Pac Rim Southparker. Cartmans cousin from Georgia

BenE
May-28-2004, 1:24pm
That mandolin would play much better with a bridge and strings!
Umkay, Mr Hand!

Ted Eschliman
May-28-2004, 1:28pm
Mandohack, you doin' this?? #Are you "Mandodocta?"
Here's the dead-giveaway... all that "butt talk!" #
Not I, M'dude.
You know me well enough that all my pranks usually involve Photoshop...
(Especially if the word "butt" is mentioned.)
Besides, I usually switch to decaffe after 10:00 AM.
Not me.

May-28-2004, 1:29pm
Yeah but Billy F holes is just learning. He was duped on his trip from Georgia to southpark by some character named Wigglesworth who sold him what was suppsodely #a Gibson Master model which turned out to be a Pac Rim job with no bridge or strings !!! #Umkay http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

I'm telling you I got this southpark episode all worked out http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif