Why no woof?

[jamman]

I'm a huge Rigel fan. The neck of dreams with great tone and responsiveness. But have been curious as to why it doesn't have "the bluegrass chop".

Is it because of the rounded rims? Smaller f-holes? Does the Jethro have a different chop with its standard rims?

[Ted Eschliman]

Negative.
If it's "chop" you crave in the Jethro, you'll be barking up the wrong tree (no pun intended)...
I took one of these to Mandofest to show the troops, and the prevailing comment was, "Wow! What fantastic low end!" Another, "Listen to that sustain..."
Though definitely not a Bluegrass instrument, its "sweetness" is perfect for a number of other genres, classical, swing (duh, the namesake...), and of course other jazz.
That said, Rigel's best foot forward in the BG market is their G5. This puppy can bark. It also rewards the player with a smart string to string balance, and of course the world-famous Rigel playability, comfortable neck and frets.
I've had one on loan to show for about 30 days, and I still marvel at the craftsmanship, every time I open its case.
Its detour from the traditional F5 (ah, the curves!) can distract you from its BG sensibilities. You almost have to shut your eyes playing it to grasp how good it responds. Everytime I pick it up I see another bit of amazing attention to detail--the finish, the binding, the neck fit.
The G5 is a world class contender. It ain't cheap, but neither are the "dogs" it's #capable of running with.

[Peter Mix]

Bear in mind that we offer a voicing option for all of our instruments. Anyone who is willing to take the trouble to be present while we voice an instrument can have the voice they want. Pete Langdell and Neal Brown are masters of the fine art of instrument-voicing and can deliver virtually anything. One of the luxuries of the Rigel rim construction is the flexibility it offers in voicing: due to the inherent strength of the rim construction, the top can be loaded in the instrument without gluing it in and tuned to pitch once the back is glued in place. If the voice is not up to our standards immediately, we can remove the top and regraduate or shave braces until the voice suits us. Of course, we have our own sonic preferences, but the point is that we can voice any way that a customer desires. It requires the player being there to get the results they desire (you can't phone it in). We've built countless bluegrass mandolins that will stand up to absolutely anything in a bluegrass context and others that are fabulous for jazz, Celtic, choro, swing and classical, you name it.
Peter Mix
Rigel Mandolins

[jamman]

Finally lured Mr. Mix out of lurkdom! Thanks Peter, you should've spoken up sooner.

Whenever a discussion on the merits of Rigels come up it's always " They're fantastic instruments, but not ideal for bluegrass." I play whatever my fingers can find and have found Rigel's voice suits everything except a bluegrass chop. Player and not the instrument? Well of course, but let's not get personal! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Tom C]

I recently say David Bromberg Quintet. It was supposed to be quartet but Gene Johnson flew in to play with them. He was playing a Rigel (The one with the 2 horns). I thought it sounded thin myself.

[John Flynn]

I think one problem is people's appetitite for change with regard to mandos. Some people don't like anything that is not Gibson. Those people should buy Gibsons and be happy. Some people only like mandos that look and sound like Gibsons, whether Gibson makes them or not. Still other people would like Rigels, but only if they sounded like Gibsons. But Rigels are not Gibsons and I say "Vive La Difference!," which is really odd, because I don't speak French, LOL!

As a Rigel owner, I like all the innovations: The look, the construction techniques and the tone. It is its own thing, but as Peter said, it is a thing that can be customized to suit many tastes. If there had been an Internet and a Mandolin Cafe' a hundred years ago, the bowlback guys would have been complaining that the new Gibsons just don't sound like a good bowlback.

Wait a mintute...they are still saying that! #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Frank Russell]

On a recent trip to Buffalo Bros., the only mandolin there that really blew me away with bluegrass tone was the Rigel G5. I am happy with my A9 and F9, but if that Rigel was cheaper, it would be mine right now. Not crazy about the Rigel looks, but for tone and playability, Ted is right, that thing was a monster. Frank

FINALLY......someone mentions one of the three MAGIC words...playability. Frank is playing a pair of 9's so he was quick to notice the superb playability of a Rigel. # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Big Joe]

Another voice to crawl out of the woodwork...:;): I personally like the fact Rigel does not try to duplicate what we do. They make a very good product and it is theirs and they can be proud of being innovative and creative. They are one of the few builders that actually provide an option to what we do. There are many good builders, but many have forgot the artistic end is in the design also. Thank you Peter for your great sense of style!

[Frank Russell]

Low Blow Dale. Frank

[softshell]

I don't know. I have a Rigel G110 and it seems to me to have a nice woody chop. I can feel it rumble when I play it. Sometimes it can be a little dark sounding but man has it got some power. I play in a standard bluegrass group, banjo, bass, guitar, dobro, mandolin and it holds its own. The guys in the band although they can be traditionalists seem to like the looks and the sound. It also sounds good playing western swing, folk, rock, etc. I've only had a chance to play two Gibsons one was an A9 which I thought sounded good, if a little cramped on the fingerboard, and a model from the 70's which I didn't care for, so I can't really can't comment on that. It also sounds great plugged in.

[Walter]

Playability is a huge consideration when selecting a mandolin, and the Rigel has the easiest-to-play neck and fret board. #I also think its the most versatial instrument available.

I've heard about Rigel making an A+ model that was specifically "voiced" for bluegrass. #Has anyone owned or played this model?

[mandodude]

I've heard about Rigel making an A+ model that was specifically "voiced" for bluegrass. #Has anyone owned or played this model?
There ya go, Peter... have you guys given this model any thought?? #

I realize that, as you said, you can "custom voice" your mandos to suit the tastes and techniques of the individual purchaser, PROVIDED he or she can make the trek out to Vermont... fact is, most folks CAN'T make that trek! #How 'bout a model that's "pre-voiced" to the timbre and acoustic requirements of Bluegrass, perhaps the single largest segment of today's mando-buying public? #I'm sure that the buyer doesn't need to be sitting in the shop alongside your builder to tell him what characteristics should be built into a good Bluegrass axe... just read through past posts here - you'll find countless discusions about what the BG'ers are looking for in their weapons!

A little creative marketing, perhaps some visual details to set it apart, a catchy model name, maybe ramp up the endorsement program from one or two of the "big boys" a bit... this has got success! written all over it!



...and if you'd like to use my name as part of that "catchy model name," by all means, feel free, my friend!

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Mandodude

...that's M-A-N-D-O-D-U-D-E...

[Ted Eschliman]

...and if you'd like to use my name as part of that "catchy model name," by all means, feel free, my friend!
Woof, talk about frightening small children...
Just don't be using no 8x10 autographed glossy pictures.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[fangsdaddy]

the playability on my old A naural was superb. i wish i had kept it as my "beater". it played like a fine electric guitar but i had those "tone issues" that everyone speaks to.

[Mando Medic]

Timing is everything! Yesterday in my shop we had an informal Mandolin Tasting. It came down to the comparison of a New Jethro vs. a New Fern varnish. In fact, when the client turned his back and could not see which instrument I was playing, he preferred the Jethro both for chop, tone and balance. But when he turned around and looked at the instrument that he had chosen, he was dissapointed because he didn't want to like the Rigel.

I have found this to be the case in all the mandolin tastings that we have done over the past few years. This is why it is so important that I continue to capture samples of mandolins so that we can continue to compare instruments without the influence of names.

As to the issue of why the first mentioned Jethro did not have a good chop? Could the player be inexperienced in the proper chop technique? Were the strings wrong? Was the action too low? We don't know. But those of us who have played a Jethro set up correctly and played correctly have discovered an interesting alternative to conventional without looking unconventional. Kenc

[mad dawg]

(Walter @ May 29 2004, 08:59)
I've heard about Rigel making an A+ model that was specifically "voiced" for bluegrass. #Has anyone owned or played this model?
I forget who, but someone here on the boards last year had a black A+ for sale in the classifieds that was voiced for BG (I think is was a case of thinning the herd, rather than his not being happy with it).

[mandofiddle]

Talk to Dale. #I believe he ordered two Rigel A+'s in the past that were specifically voiced for bluegrass.

[Peter Mix]

Pete Langdell asked me to respond to the suggestion that we build a bluegrass-voiced model as a standard item. The simple fact is that everyone's ears are different, as are their preferences and there is plenty of room for disagreement. The one "bluegrass-voiced" A+ we built specifically for Dale Cater's customer came with a very detailed description of the desired voice and was still a bit of a shot in the dark. This is a very subjective area.
That said, we're happy to voice as closely to the customer's desires as possible. When we built Chris Thile's Rigel, he asked for a voice as close as possible to his Dudenbostel. As luck would have it, I had at the time the twin sister to his Dudenbostel, the very instrument that had inspired Chris to have his built with a Virzi, so naturally we used that for a voice model.
At the time, Pete's workbench was around a corner from my desk and I listened as he played the Dudenbostel and the new Rigel, going back and forth. He had to remove the Rigel's top three times to minutely re-graduate, but after 45 minutes or so, I couldn't tell which instrument was which. It would be interesting to compare the same instruments now. The point is that voice-matching can be done, but it really requires a prospective new owner to guide the process with their ears.
I've played many superb instruments over the years and have found wide variation among mandolins that are considered "bluegrass cannons". What works for one player may not work for another or least not the same way.
Ken's observations about the blind-testing of the Jethro vs the Fern are right on the money. I think of it as "hearing with the eyes". We don't expect every mandolinist to fall head over heels in love with our work, but it's a big old mando-world out there and there's plenty of room for many great instruments. Of course, this is one reason we all need so many of the little nippers to make us happy.
cheers, Peter Mix

[Darryl Wolfe]

Thank-you Peter for chiming in on this thread. I, like BigJoe appreciate your contribution to the artistic side of mandolin building..and think you guys offer a great variety of "alternative" products..and do a great job. Thanks for the tailpieces, they too are a very nice departure from the norm, and look really cool on the stuff I'm doing at the moment

[Damnation Gulch]

Again, the wealth of information obtained on this site is invaluable. The more I read the more hands on I would like to be and the dent in my back account is unforeseeable. Even though I’m not sure what voicing I’m looking for I find it kind of strange that someone of Chris’s stature would have a company custom build an instrument to sound like another instrument. I certainly don’t want my Stratocaster to sound like my Les Paul...but I digress. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[jesseb]

Just my $.02 here-I have an A+ deluxe which I love. I bought it used & will have to admit the 'sound' wasn't what I expected. (I wanted more of a gut punch in the notes type of sound.) Anyway, after a few months I took it to a local luthier for a new set up. All I can say is WOW!
Totally different mando. Hit a chord and you can feel it
in the belly. Granted, I play mostly blues, old time, and a little BG but the Rigel pleases me on all fronts. Aah, to each his own...

[Walter]

If the fine folks at Rigel could simply create a A+ Deluxe with the voice of a Loar, I think they would dominate the mandolin market.

[Ken Sager]

If the fine folks at Rigel could simply create a A+ Deluxe with the voice of a Loar, I think they would dominate the mandolin market.
Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner!

Trouble with that, though, is that what two Loars sound alike? Which Loar do you use as your voice model?

Put Reischman's against Marshall's against Grisman's, and you've got three very different sounding machines. Equally fantastic, just not the same.

Am I wrong?

[Walter]

Okay, Marshall's Loar, Grisman's Loar, or Reischman's Loar...

The voice of any one of those Loar's on an A+ Deluxe would be fine with me.

I'm really not that picky.

"If the fine folks at Rigel could simply create a A+ Deluxe with the voice of a Loar, I think they would dominate the mandolin market."

uh.......yeah......that should be simple enough.........wonder if any other makers ever thought about that?........ # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Walter]

Dale,

Yes, However, not all mandolin makers claim to be able to voice the mandolin to the customer's desires, like Rigel does.

Here's the quote from Peter Mix:

>>> "we're happy to voice as closely to the customer's desires as possible. When we built Chris Thile's Rigel, he asked for a voice as close as possible to his Dudenbostel. As luck would have it, I had at the time the twin sister to his Dudenbostel, the very instrument that had inspired Chris to have his built with a Virzi, so naturally we used that for a voice model.
# At the time, Pete's workbench was around a corner from my desk and I listened as he played the Dudenbostel and the new Rigel, going back and forth. He had to remove the Rigel's top three times to minutely re-graduate, but after 45 minutes or so, I couldn't tell which instrument was which. It would be interesting to compare the same instruments now. The point is that voice-matching can be done, but it really requires a prospective new owner to guide the process with their ears."<<<

- So it's Pete himself that makes this claim.

[JohnF]

I played a few Rigels at Grey Fox and I thought the chop was nice. Perhaps a little deeper voiced that the traditional bluegrass model but I happen to like that better. The models I played A+ deluxe had a lot of punch.

[Zed]

I play mostly BG and some "new acoustic" stuff on my Rigel A Nat and it rocks (many times strictly acoustic, no mics). It does have a non-standard ebony bridge (I special ordered it that way), I use a 2mm custom Wegen pick, and J75s. Plenty of woof. Like a bassy woof? Play closer to the neck. Want a more middy woof? Play close to the bridge. A particular mando can certainly be more capable of woof than another (as subjective as that is) but many factors go into woof, technique being very high on that list.