A lack of singing at bg festivals

[lgc]

Does anyone else notice a disproportionate amount of picking tunes at BG festival jams and a lack of good strong harmony singing. It seems most people is way more interested in playing Roanoke or Whell Hoss 10 times in a weekend than workin on the high-lonesome. Can anyone explain this?

[MikeEdgerton]

Yes, I can explain it. You're going to wrong festivals. Every festival I go to has singing with harmony but then again, that's my forte.

[Michael H Geimer]

I've heard great singing at festivals, so it's not an issue everywhere.

But I did go a jam locally where singing was not really the focus at all. If you called a vocal tune, it was more or less expected that you sing the first verse and chorus almost like a kick-off ... then the solos would go around the entire circle and the songs ends.

Most Weird, IMO. But this is a popular jam, so who am I to say anything about it? I haven't back though.

[Bill James]

We have singing but the word "harmony" doesn't come to mind. It's still fun though! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Gutbucket]

I hear just the opposite here in Illinois. It's all singing. I'd give my left molar for a fiddle tune once in awhile. My singing sucks.

[woodwizard]

My singing sucks too. Guess that's why I know so many instrumentals. I'm the only one that doesn't sing in my band and when asked and I do ocassionally get asked why I don't sing too. I simply say that we kinda like to get paid every once and a while. But I do love that high lonesome Bluegrass harmony.

[John Flynn]

Not much of a singer either. That's one reason I like old-time: very little singing and when we do sing, it doesn't have to be great! Other reasons are: I get to play the melody as much as I want. I don't have to wait my "turn." Also, no resonator banjos! The clawhammer banjos actually sound good and they aren't too darn loud. Old-time is everthing I like about bluegrass without all the stuff I don't!

[AlanN]

I love to sing. Sometimes, it's hard to get the real bg vocal sound, but boy, when I find a guy (or gal) I blend with, nothing beats it. Lead or tenor, sometimes baritone, it's all good! And the festivals I hit, there's a good amount of singing around the campsites.

[JGWoods]

Not much of a singer either. That's one reason I like old-time: very little singing and when we do sing, it doesn't have to be great! Other reasons are: I get to play the melody as much as I want. I don't have to wait my "turn." Also, no resonator banjos! The clawhammer banjos actually sound good and they aren't too darn loud. Old-time is everthing I like about bluegrass without all the stuff I don't!
Right on John! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[EdSherry]

IMHO, harmony work generally involves working closely with other singers to get the harmonies right/tight. #Instrumental jams, by contrast, let everyone "step out" for a solo, even if they've never played together before. #The BG festivals I go to have a lot of impromptu harmony singing.

[MDW]

The jams in my area are almost exclusively vocal songs. Hardly any tunes get called.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Harmony singing is a tough thing to accomplish without really hard work,so it's not surprising when a group of people who possibly have never met before, can't do it.
Done properly,it's one of the most wonderful sound on earth - in any form of music,
Saska

[Big Joe]

I have not noticed a problem with the amount of singing at Bluegrass events. I like to sing, but the "high lonesome" does not work for me. I am a low baritone, or as I sometimes describe it, a bull elephant with a serious sinus problem http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif .

I do notice many of the younger people are focusing on the instruments as thier first concern. They want to be able to pick incredibly well and forget that there is more to music than triplets at breakneck speed. As they mature a bit they begin to get interested in the vocal parts. It is normal in a jam to want an opportunity to try your new version of a song on the mandolin, guitar, banjo, accordian or CLARINET http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif .

[MikeEdgerton]

Actually, if you have people that are adept at singing harmony and actually know the same version of the song (the words as it is) as the person singing, harmony comes as easily as stepping up and taking a break. Some people can hear the harmonies in their head and naturally find the spot. Most of the time people with that talent will be able to listen to a voice and determine what needs to be added. It's not simply singing a note, it's actually knowing how to handle the primary singers voice. Some have rough edges that need to be smoothed out, some need a little boost in the middle. The voice is as much an instrument as anything with strings. It's hard to describe. I've only know two or three people in my life that actually thought the process through and they could make damn near anyone sound better. With that said, their are some people that you just can't sing harmony with. That's usually more because of lack of consistent phrasing more than anything else.

[brianf]

I hear the harmony so naturally that when I #take a vocal lead, I sometimes just sing the tenor by mistake.

Since singing and playing both take talent, and since those who can do both are less plentiful that those who can do just one, naturally groups that are good at pickin and singing are more scarce than the others. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[jasona]

Singing...those are the words between the instrumental breaks, right? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Seriously however, I'm more of a fan of the interplay of the instruments than the singing. The "high lonesome" sound makes my skin crawl--mostly sounds like folks straining to hit notes well out of their natural register. Tim O'Brien is one of a few who sounds like a true natural tenor. Anyway, I expect its why my ear has brought me around to Grisman more than the more traditional BG bands.

[TonyP]

I have different folks I hang with at festivals to either sing or pick. I've not had a problem finding the singers as that's what I look for. I am blessed to be in bands with the best lead singers in the area and that is our main focus. Like Big Joe, I've noticed the youngin's just wanna pick, and don't focus on the singin'. Early on I was that way too, but then came Hot Rise and Tim O showed you could have both in a band. It's just not balanced to me without singin' now. The hard part for me(besides not being a real lead singer) is just remembering words. You might say I'm a converted picker http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I can remember melody's, and chorus's are just the right amount of words for my brain.
A tip I got early on, if you want to go to a fest and find someone to sing with and have it work, listen to and know how to sing harmony to the standards. Mr. Bill, F&S, Dr.Ralph, and all the Bluegrass Album Band albums. And do it in the keys that are on the album. If you know those, just like they do them, you will find someone. Go learning something off the beaten path, lots of luck. It's just like learning a language.
To each his own MandoJohnny and I mean that in a nice way. While I like a few Old Timey tunes here and there(and I am a fiddle tune nut) I had the pleasure of getting in a good OT jam not to long ago. They were great players and we had a lot in common, but the stuff you mention you like, is what got to me. The thing of everybody playing the melody, all the time just reminds me of a party where everybody is talking over each other. It would seem as though nobody is listening to each other. And being a mando player I had to kill myself to hear myself over a fiddle and banjo, much less the uke and autoharp. It was just rolling thunder all the time. I also don't subscribe to the "bigger the jam, the better". I like a band sized jam. Anything more than that, to me, just turns into noise. The lack of vocals, harmonies, and dynamics kinda drove me crazy after all the other folks showed up. When it was just fiddle, banjo, and mando it was kinda fun. So for me, it was the part I don't get to do much at a bg fest, play fiddle tunes, so that was good. But, I'm just a bluegrasser, ruined I guess.

[G'DAE]

I've noticed that it seems everyone wants to play Whiskey 'fore breakfast, however, I've yet to find someone who'll sing it. I usually get the look......there's words?
Bob.

[MikeEdgerton]

...there's words?...
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Yes, to almost all of them. Try to find someone to sing Dear Old Dixie.

[jim_n_virginia]

I think it is really about the mix of the jam you are in. If the jam you are in has a lot of mandolin, fiddle and banjo players and not many guitar players there will be a lot of fiddle tunes and intrumentals as it is a little harder to play the banjo and fiddle and sing at the same time. Not so hard with the mandolin but most mandolin players can pick and chop.

However it has been my experience that most guitar pickers (in bluegrass I'm talking about) just play rhythm and sing. Not many I see can flatpick out a tune and even if you can you can't hear it unless everyone backs off.

The jams in my area usually don't have that many guitar players so there is not much singing. The jam BrianT,sgarrity and I usually go to on Wed nights many times there is only ONE guitar player out of 8 or 9 pickers there and so it is almost exclusively fiddle tunes and instrumentals.

BUT... I go across the water to other towns in close proximity and the jams they have are almost all guitar players and it is all singing and many do not even know many standard fiddle tunes that I would have thought anybody who has been listening to bluegrass for any amount of time would know. The exception seems to be up in Richmond where guitar players abound and most of them can flat out pick anything and keep up with any fiddle or mandolin players and they sing too. So it's just aways different IMHO.

Also taking turns playing breaks in between the verses on the singing songs is kinda standard bluegrass jam procedure and I like the challange of taking a break and coming up with something completely unexpected and creating something that souds great on the fly like that.

I do like Old Time but everyone plays together and while it is safe an comforting to hide in the crowd so to speak you never get to come out on your own and take a risk. It's like playing in an orchestra, if you screw up no one can hear it and if you are playing brilliantly no one can hear it.

[Bernie Daniel]

Big Joe: I do notice many of the younger people are focusing on the instruments as thier first concern.

That is an interesting comment and this is a very interesting thread. #

Joe, I find the opposite it be true too. #

There seems to be in increasing trend in bluegrass these days for singers -- mostly female I think, who do not seem to play an instrument themselves, to form a band of instrumentalists around them. #

This would be in contrast to someone like Alison Krauss who was national fiddle champ first - before she became a legenary singer and then formed Allison Krauss and Union Station.

Kyle Cantrell on Bluegrass Junction (XM radio) once offered his opinion that what really separates bluegrass from some other genre of music is that the stars tend to be both great singers as well as virtuoso instrumentalists. #

I found myself agreeing with that for the most part anyway.

I also think as great as it is bluegrass needs to get beyond the high lonesome sound -- my natural singing range is the bass (singing with a grain of salt). #I would sing more if there was an opportunity to do so.

[mythicfish]

"I do like Old Time but everyone plays together and while it is safe an comforting to hide in the crowd so to speak you never get to come out on your own and take a risk. It's like playing in an orchestra, if you screw up no one can hear it and if you are playing brilliantly no one can hear it."

Listening usually get the "short straw". I always thought that "playing brilliantly" meant making the other players soung good.

Curt

[MikeEdgerton]

I always thought that "playing brilliantly" meant making the other players soung good.
It's unfortunate that many players don't understand that concept. Most decent bands strive to create an overall sound that is pleasing to an audience and jams shouldn't be any different. If you're there to show everyone how good you are you've lost it from the get go.

[lgc]

It's kind of a bummer that so much of the old time scene is dominated by 10 min. long fiddle tunes. That is sucha small part of oldtime music. The singin' in oldtime is the best part-from old cajun tunes, to blues numbers, to spirituals. Heck even the best oldtime fiddles like Earl Johnson and Gid Tanner had singing on most songs. It's like "oldtime" has been condensed into a few styles of straight fiddle music from appalachia. THat is a new accurance, I think.

[AlanN]

I always thought that "playing brilliantly" meant making the other players soung good.
It's unfortunate that many players don't understand that concept. Most decent bands strive to create an overall sound that is pleasing to an audience and jams shouldn't be any different. If you're there to show everyone how good you are you've lost it from the get go.
um, the two are not mutually exclusive. Sure, the idea of ensemble work is to make the overall thing sound good. But, I always marvel at stellar, stand-out instrumentalists. You can have one with the other.

[MikeEdgerton]

And I didn't say they were. If you get a "stellar, stand-out instrumentalists" that can't contribute to the overall sound of the music because he or she is too busy being a "stellar, stand-out instrumentalists" they're a lost cause. A jam should be a group effort to make music, YMMV.

[AlanN]

No arguing there, Mike. Just ask Chubby <g>.

[MikeEdgerton]

No arguing there, Mike. Just ask Chubby <g>.
Warn me next time before you do that. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Dave Dearnley]

I've noticed that it seems everyone wants to play Whiskey 'fore breakfast, however, I've yet to find someone who'll sing it. I usually get the look......there's words?
Bob.

There was plenty of singin' at Winfield, and GOOD singin' too!

Come by the Neon Guitar camp at Winfield next year. #I'll have E.C. pick and sing Whisky 'fore Breakfast for ya. #He'll have you tappin', slapin', dancin' and singin' it yerself!

Dave

[goose 2]

A little different gripe: Just back from Winfield and heard lots of bands and did lots of jamming. I have noticed that there seems to be a lack interesting or even "musical" playing on mandolin breaks. A lot of note spewing and then in the next song more note puking but in a different key. Kinda like an hard rock electric guitar solo played on a mandolin. The melody is very hard to find and usually completely elusive. I would like to hear more rhythmic and melodic solos like Roland and Big Mon. Not too many notes but lots of powerful ringing mandolin tone. Just my preference I guess. . .

[mandolinplucker]

I had heard about the Red Light Cafe in Atlanta so when I heard that the String Dusters were playing there I decided to check it out. The place opens at 7:00 and the jam is till 9:00 when the talent hits the stage. I was planning on some good old pickin and singin but what happens is that they divide up into 2 or 3 groups and play fiddle tunes for two boring and repeditive hours. It's a matter of personal taste but after the first one- they all sound like the first one played over and over and over and over ect. It was worth the auditory torture when the String Dusters started playing. MAN- that Jessy Cobb can spank a mandolin !!!

[T.T. Brown]

One idea - most everyone has some soul. It's very interesting to see how folks like the Chocolate Drops and the Blind Boys bring their vocal tradition to the bluegrass idiom. My voice cracks and wavers all over the place, but it is fun (for me, not those who have to listen). Plus, my sisters actually know how to sing on pitch. That helps. Just my 2 cents.


(Please listen to Anthony Hamilton) http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[MikeEdgerton]

Please listen to Anthony Hamilton
Hey, I do. My son just released one of his CD's.

Anthony Hamilton - Southern Comfort (http://media.merovingianmusic.com/advertise/ah/stf.html)

There's no mandolin content there folks.

[Dave Schimming]

I've noticed that it seems everyone wants to play Whiskey 'fore breakfast, however, I've yet to find someone who'll sing it. I usually get the look......there's words?
Bob.

There was plenty of singin' at Winfield, and GOOD singin' too!

Come by the Neon Guitar camp at Winfield next year. I'll have E.C. pick and sing Whisky 'fore Breakfast for ya. He'll have you tappin', slapin', dancin' and singin' it yerself!

Dave
Stop by Camp Brigadoon at the 2008 Winfield festival for a sung version of Whiskey Before Breakfast, our camp member who knows the words even sounds like he had whiskey before breakfast http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif