Machine Replacement

[fatt-dad]

Dear NG,

I have a (cheap) Aria M-300 (two-point, spruce top and rosewood sides and back) that I love to play, sounds good and has terrible machines. I have checked out FQMS, Stewmac and thought about Elderly (but their web search is too difficult to figure out). So, here's the question, what are my choices for shopping to get new machines? I am not looking for the $17.00 set from ebay and notice both gold and chrome finish sets in the $40 to $50.00 range.

What is the difference between the Grover and Schaller styles - they both look to have white pearl-like knobs. Are these white knobs the only type that typically come with the $40 to $50 sets? What I have on it now is cheap white plastic.

Oh well, I ramble (the curse of typing fast). If someone can figure out what I am obsessing over, please chime in.

f-d

[amowry]

I've used both the Schallers and Grovers, and they seem pretty similar in terms of quality. The Grovers have black shafts, removable buttons, and a slightly higher gear ratio. I like the faux engraving on the back of the Schallers a little better, and Schallers seem to have slightly better name recognition and popularity for mandos. I believe the shaft lengths and spacing are identical, unless they've been changed recently.

[mandough]

I recently replaced my cheapo tuners on my Washburn M3SW mandolin that I have. I put the gold Grover tuners on with the (looks like rock crystal) knobs on them ($50 ones). The three center holes lined up perfectly but the two end ones did not. I had to fill the old holes and redrill the two end holes. Not a big deal but just letting you know. A little better sustain than my old tuners as they were not very stable. Much better looking.
The Schallers that I have seen have the gears reversed and the screwholes are on the opposite side of the gears.
That's why I didn't get those.

[mandough]

I recently replaced my cheapo tuners on my Washburn M3SW mandolin that I have. I put the gold Grover tuners on with the (looks like rock crystal) knobs on them ($50 ones). The three center holes lined up perfectly but the two end ones did not. I had to fill the old holes and redrill the two end holes. Not a big deal but just letting you know. A little better sustain than my old tuners as they were not very stable. Much better looking.
The Schallers that I have seen have the gears reversed and the screwholes are on the opposite side of the gears.
That's why I didn't get those.

[John Flynn]

I think one of the lesser-known good deals in replacement tuners are the Grover "Sta-Tites" for about $30. Unlike the Grover Deluxe tuners, they have solid metal buttons. They are what Mid-Missouri offers as "upgrade" tuners. They can be hard to find, but I just bought a set online after a search and I have seen them on Ebay. They work well and they look good, but not fancy, and the buttons can never chip or break.

[fatt-dad]

Dear NG, Thanks for the feedback. Jflynnstl, I am going to try to find the sta-tites. This is what I am shooting for - good, but cheap.

f-d

[John Flynn]

Try International Luthier's Supply. They have them even cheaper that what I said above:
http://www.internationalluthiers.com/machineheadsp3.php

The Sta-Tites are not listed as such they are just called "Grover A-Style Mandolin Machine Heads," SKU number #G304C. Also check out the Gotoh tuners on the same page. That is what Collings is using on their MT and MF. They are a good mid-priced tuner also.

[evanreilly]

The newer Grovers have an 18:1 turning ratio as opposed to the 16:1 ratio on the Shallers. I've used both & upgraded several mandolins. Most current machines have a 29/32nd" center-to-center hole; the main differences can be in the screw-holes thru the plate. Old holes can be easily filled with a maple toothpick with wood glue on the tip and trimmed when dry.

[fatt-dad]

jflynnstl,

Do you know whether the internationalluthier can supply specifications on the various tuning machines? I was looking at the machines at stewmac, which had the specifications and the machines that I am replacing are excact replicas to the stewmac "economy tuner". The closer I get to the original, the less fussing I will have over old holes - then again, maybe it doesn't matter.

f-d

[John Flynn]

fatt-dad:

In response your post, I have measured a set of Sta-Tites and compared them to a set of common "cheapos" that come on modern mandolins and to the specs for the cheapos on Stewmac. No guarantees made here, but the spacing appears to be identical on both the tuning pegs and the screw holes.

[fatt-dad]

M-J,

Thanks. I won't hold you to it, but that helps. Funny thing is that my Flatiron A5-1 (1984, Carlson) has machines that appear to be a perfect match (not that I removed them - they just measure out). They have the chrome tuning knobs and may actually be Sta-Tites also, whatever the case, they work well and that is my "best" mandolin.

I'll spend my birthday money on the new tuners and tell the world (at least the Cafe), how it worked out.

fatt-dad

[evanreilly]

here is the link to info on the new Grover (http://grotro.com/catpage9.html) tuning machines.

[fatt-dad]

Dear NG,

I have just replaced the machines on my Aria M-300 (two point with f-holes)! The Sta-Tites from International Luthier Supply were a great price (under $20.00) and a perfect fit (down to the screws).

One thing that I noticed was the holes for the string posts were "right" but not quite right. As such, this is somewhat of a source for some friction on the machine gears (i.e., without string pressure the string posts are under some friction from the sidewalls of the headstock holes). I guess a luthier (I'm not) would have a reamer to open up the holes. I have a drill (seems like an invitation to trouble) or can just leave it alone.

Comments?

f-d

[atetone]

fatt-dad, I am no expert on this but I find that very strange. The post spacings since around 1920 or 21 or something are to my knowledge all at 29/32 of an inch. Before that they were at 15/16.
I would hazard a guess that the problem is not the post spacing but rather the screw holes spacing.
Rather than start reaming the post holes I would fill the screw holes, line up the tuners properly and re-drill the screw holes. The beauty of it is that you will not be able to see that it was done once the tuners are put back on.
Seems a lot safer to me.
Also, did you get the bushings with the new tuners? They might be a bit different. Not sure about that one.

[atetone]

fatt-dad, unless of course the actual post diameter is bigger?
Maybe that's the problem, in which case maybe you will have to ream them out.
I would try to avoid that.
It might be worth comparing the diameters to the old tuners.
Like I said, I am no expert.

[fatt-dad]

Atetone,

I believe that the mandolin was originally made with the 29/32 holes somewhat off (just by a gnat hair). As such, some string posts rub and others do not. Just my observation. The question is whether to use a reamer to "fix" the problem or, seeing as they are in, just deal with it.

f-d

[fatt-dad]

Dealing with it was the way I went. The mandolin strung up no problem, the tuners worked great - now to get better - ha.

f-d

[Dru Lee Parsec]

Jiffyfeet came over to my place a couple months ago so I could help him replace the machines on his Breedlove Quartz KF with some nice Schallers. I like them so much I changed the ones on my Breedlove Quartz KO. The screw holes almost (but not quite) line up. I had to fill 2 of the old holes and pre drill the new locations.

But the post spacing was exactly the same.