Scroll anti-envy

[emitfo]

I'm not sure what to call it, I see other people referring to "scroll envy" and I'm curious whether others experience "anti-envy" and what they might call it? I look at a mandolin with an F-scroll (is that redundant?) at whatever price point and I think "What could s/he/they improved if they'd left that off? Better wood? More time tap-tuning it? Higher quality electronics(where applicable)? How much less would it be if they'd just left it off?" You get the idea. I like the Breedlove's ORIGINAL take on the "F" style--just sort of a cut-off block. It's like a respectful nod toward the tradition but remaining true to the utilitarian ideal.

[Steve L]

I never got the whole scroll thing. #I have a Breedlove KF and I like the design though my motive in buying it was it was a really good one-shot deal with a former dealer liquidating stock.

[Celtic Saguaro]

I don't worry much about having a scroll or not. #I have a mandolin with a scroll. I have several without. I didn't buy the one for its scroll or the others because they didn't. #That said, all things considered, the scroll is mostly about vanity: "It's prettier so it must be better." http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

I don't deny that scrolls do make the instrument prettier, and in that regard I do find Breedlove's K-style a little lacking. They sound fine though.

[John Hill]

For years I only played A-styles because frankly I can't tell enough of a difference in tone from A to F's (although some will say there is, I'm not debating that...I just can't hear it myself) to justify paying that much more for the same instrument. I will say that a well built scroll is beautiful and I now have an F-style on order but what I can't do without anymore are the lower lap points on an F-style; it just makes playing so much more comfortable for me that I'd never go back to an A just because of them.

As it is I just bought a Breedlove FF yesterday and all I can say is that is a great deal for a scroll mandolin, if not traditional. Wonderful tone more importantly.

[MikeEdgerton]

If I ever develop Breedlove envy I'll chop the scroll of my Gibson F5G. Till then I'll simply enjoy the heck out of the way it looks and sounds. Right now I'm going to go sit and play my Flatiron A for a while.

With that said I think many newcomers make the mistake of thinking they need a scroll (even with the fresh take of the Breedlove stump) when in reality they could get a better mandolin if they just buy an A style. This is a matter of individual taste, kind of like dancing at a Bluegrass festival.

[Jonathan Peck]

Some like em short, some like em tall
Some like em thin, skinny legs and all
...Aerosmith

Alot of us just like mandolins...all kinds...but that said, price will likely be the biggest determining factor in buying a good instrument. There are lots of choices in every price range...life is good. Always get the most mandolin that you can afford

Or...you can think of it as evolution with the 'F' style mandolin being at the top of the food chain. Just out of curiosity, I just tried to think of a few 'A' style mandolins that cost more than 10k and who builds them. I didn't get very far

[Tighthead]

I won't call it 'anti-scroll' as I think the F-style mandolin is beautiful, but at this point I prefer the simple elegance of a nicely done A. I've gone from the typical beginner's scroll-envy to a preference for A-style mandolins.

One thing I like about A-style mandolins is that they seem (to me) to offer a more flexible canvas for a builder, specifically the headstock. I know there are F-styles with different takes on the traditional headstock, but I would say the vast majority are locked into the "traditional" look. The headstock on an A-style, in contrast, offers an opportunity for the builder to come up with his own take.

[Walter Newton]

Some like em short, some like em tall
Some like em thin, skinny legs and all
...Aerosmith
Aerosmith covering James Brown, that is!

[steve V. johnson]

My musical instrument world has stuff from all over the planet, and from that perspective I'm often amazed at how the Gibson F-style has captured the imagination of so many people. #The F-mandolin is a unique shape and device, known the world over.

I was just thinking about that this morning, and then I found this thread. #Hmmm....

And the F-style has a lot of ... um... 'cultural baggage'. # In a lot of places in the world, when a player pulls out an F-mandolin, folks have certain expectations. #

I think there's a difference in sound between A & F, and it's subtle, but among instruments made by the great builders of each style, I think the differences between the A & F area a bit more apparent. # #But in the main, at the less stratospheric levels of luthier's craft there is less difference. # A little to none, as others here have noted.

The art of sculpture of F- mandolins has, in the past few decades, certainly become High Art, with details of carving, the shape and dimensions of the scroll, the headstock, the bindings and inlays, ALL the details, expressed in tremendously fine terms. #

I've been a fan and observer/student of guitar luthierie for a long time, but a relative newcomer to the arts of mandolin building, and what I've learned (mostly via the Cafe, thanks) about the degree of craft that goes into fine mandolins is amazing and inspiring.

All that doesn't inspire me to want to own an F-style mandolin, but I want to know what these great luthiers are doing, so I like to see, hear, and when I can, play some of them. #But my needs and my ability to actually -play- mandolins is much more simple. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Thanks,

stv

[Jonathan Peck]

Aerosmith covering James Brown, that is!
Not trying to hijack this thread, but I didn't know that. I just watched a live JB version on y*utube. Very cool!

James Brown - Mother Popcorn (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcowWn6ilgA)

[Santiago]

You need at least one of each. :-)

[DryBones]

Does anybody make an A style with a "lap" point?

[Bill Snyder]

Does anybody make an A style with a "lap" point?
Occasionally.
One that comes to mind (although past tense now) is the Rigel Gypsy Q.
http://www.rigelinstruments.com/uploads/q95_large.jpg

[nkellstadt]

The Rigel Q95 has a lap point, but I'm not aware of any active builders doing it.

[JEStanek]

I think there may be a few others doing the odd ball A style (or two point with lap point) but I can't recall seeing one on a production model since the Rigel Gypsy Q (which I loved). #There may be some less expensive imports with an A body and a point...

Regarding the scroll. #I like a well executed one. There are some fine examples posted by folks... but I'm finding myself more drawn to less florentine models. #My next mando is going to be a L&H Style A inspired instrument by Brian Dean. #No body scroll or lap point but asymetrical points and a headstock fiddle head scroll. #I find that model and a really well executed three point oval hole to be the height of mando beauty and stylings. #On a utilitarian (and wallet basis) the plain A is great for me. #

I don't know if the body scroll gives anything to tone (given same builder and materials with two different styles is this b/c of the scroll or just two variant instruments having slightly different tones)? #I'm not a good enough player to hear it or afford it if there is a difference on high end instruments. #I also feel the A balances better with less mass in the headstock (so why get the fiddle head scroll... vanity I guess). #If wishes were mandos, my next "dream" instrument would be a Brentrup black face, red backed, 3 point oval hole with Mike Blohm's repro Handel tuner knobs. #Hans' take on this with the pickguard that is scalloped to follow the extension is on a different plane...

I do think a lot of new players are in a big rush to get a scroll to look the part and spend money on aesthetics instead of a better build but... If they dig the scroll they'll practice more and play better.

Jamie

[John Hill]

Does anybody make an A style with a "lap" point?
Occasionally.
One that comes to mind (although past tense now) is the Rigel Gypsy Q.
http://www.rigelinstruments.com/uploads/q95_large.jpg
No, not the lower lap point but the upper one. The one that rests on your left leg while sitting (or should I say, rests on my left leg anyway).

To be accurate a two-pointer a la Phoenix would fill that need I have for that point so I'm not necessarily fixated on the scroll per se...but it sure is purty.

[mandroid]

The 14 fret neck, is what I would miss.

[Alex of the North]

Scroll disdain? I've got it. But then I also drive a hatchback when I could afford something bigger and fancier, live in a smaller house than I could afford, etc. I think I inherited some kind of anti-ostentation gene. I can't help myself.

[Mark Walker]

Split the difference - play a two-pointer! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[kestrel]

Not Anti-envy, just an observation. Scroll and points - silly looking and totally worthless appendages, musically speaking. But, Monroe played one, Orville apparently thought they were purty, so people follow...

You asked.

[Santiago]

It's a mighty complex carving for a strap hook. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Jonathan Peck]

the holy grail

[JEStanek]

Glad you liked my photoshop Captain! In my mind that's how I feel some people view the F5. You'ld never catch me on a lake in a canoe wearing plate armor waiting for some ladies to hand me a mandolin! I would fall overboard and drown!

Jamie

[Jonathan Peck]

Love that one.It's a work of Art! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Tighthead]

"Look mate, if I went 'round, sayin' I was Bill Monroe, just because some moistened bink lobbed an F-5 at me, they'd put me away!"

With apologies to Michael Palin

[PaulD]

I used to really dislike the looks of the F style scroll, but it grew on me. I've got my F-9... pretty plain mando but nicely done scroll and it sounds like a Gibson. I'd like a nice F-4, but I'm also fixating on 2 points right now. As somebody said above, you need at least one of each.

You could ask the same question about other ornamentation... who needs a fancy headstock or fretboard inlay? Does it enhance the tone? Who needs a sunburst? My F-9 plays great with a simple matte finish.

pd

[fredfrank]

You know, just the fact that this thread was started proves that you do, indeed, have scroll envy.

The only reason you don't have one is because:

1) You can't afford one, and this is how you make yourself feel better.

or:

B) You can afford one, but you've spent so much time telling all your friends and family how ridiculous mandolins with scrolls look, that you can't buy one now without looking like a hypocrite.

Disclaimer: In case my sense of humor doesn't come across as intended, this was only meant to be a joke. Har!

[fwoompf]

I like F's and I can't afford one, but my A also looks awesome. :cool:

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~garnetb/flatmando/red5.jpg

[fatt-dad]

I don't mind looking at models with lots of curves, but I can't afford one.

f-d

[Bob Wiegers]

I find symmetry much more preferrable to scrolls...and I think a scroll on the bottom would be a bit much...

[Tighthead]

I like F's and I can't afford one, but my A also looks awesome. :cool:
I think that's the coolest tailpiece I've ever seen.

[DryBones]

Looks like you need to buy a Newell then! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif I'm digging the point on the end of the fretboard too. Probably matches the point on the headstock? Come on, we need to see a full picture now! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[fwoompf]

Sure thing!
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~garnetb/flatmando/red1.jpg

Looks like you were right about that point on top..
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~garnetb/flatmando/red4.jpg

[Chris Biorkman]

You know, just the fact that this thread was started proves that you do, indeed, have scroll envy.

The only reason you don't have one is because:

1) You can't afford one, and this is how you make yourself feel better.

or:

B) You can afford one, but you've spent so much time telling all your friends and family how ridiculous mandolins with scrolls look, that you can't buy one now without looking like a hypocrite.

Disclaimer: In case my sense of humor doesn't come across as intended, this was only meant to be a joke. Har!
That was hilarious!

[Ivan Kelsall]

I'm one of the fortunate amongst us,i'm lucky enough to have both an 'F' & an 'A'
style Mandolin & i think that they are both beautiful. I had two 'F' styles but for a number of reasons,decided to trade one in for my 'A' style Weber 'Beartooth'. I love 'A' style Mandolins for their simplicity & sheer grace,& looking at the wonderful 'A' style instruments made by Mr. Brentrup,anyone can see why,
Saska

[Tim]

I can understand liking A-styles (I own one).
I can understand liking F-styles (I own one).

I can't understand those who like A-styles but can't explain it without insulting those who like F-styles.

[emitfo]

You know, just the fact that this thread was started proves that you do, indeed, have scroll envy.

I hope you're not a scientist because that's an awfully low level of proof that you seem to require!

I really expressed exactly what I think when I see scrolls. I don't hate them they just kind of bug for the reasons I gave. I considered not posting it because--joke notwithstanding--I know how enamored/married to/in love with scrolls the whole scroll crowd is and I did fear a negative reaction which was not my intent. Someone suggested "scroll disdain" which made me laugh and is kind of accurate but way too negative for me. BTW I don't have any friend...or family, and after this post you probably see why! Most of the people I know barely know what a mandolin is let alone the finer points of an "A" style vs a "F" style. Also you're right, apparently I'm not as rich as most of the folks who frequent this board--I figured this out when I saw all the Classified ads with high end Rigels, Webers, Gibsons for sale from people who are "just thinning the herd" when I'm just trying to get one decent one!---but I figure by hanging out here all this money and riches and mandolins will rub off on me! <== http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif WHEW! What a long sentence that was!

And thanks for playing!

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[fredfrank]

Please read my disclaimer.

[PaulD]

Also you're right, apparently I'm not as rich as most of the folks who frequent this board--I figured this out when I saw all the Classified ads with high end Rigels, Webers, Gibsons for sale from people who are "just thinning the herd" when I'm just trying to get one decent one!---but I figure by hanging out here all this money and riches and mandolins will rub off on me!
Just buy what you can afford and play the hell out of it. When you can afford more buy what you like. When you really have more money than sense buy a Gil or DMM! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif(Just kidding... don't shoot me!)

Seriously, I started on a borrow Kay A-style, then bought a Flatiron "Pancake" in '81. I played the Flatiron for years as my only mando until I bought a Gibson A-40 and then jumped on the Guitar Center F-9 closeout a few years back. I could plunk down money on a much nicer mando but I have some problem justifying the expenditure for how much time I actually get to play. Besides, the F-9 is a very decent mando and I could probably still sell it for more than I paid. I have sprung for an octave mando for my wife and we just popped up to the top of the Arches wait so I need to work out what we want with Chris... that will be my first real mando-splurge and there's a good chance it won't have a scroll!

pd

[MikeEdgerton]

Getting a nice Gibson F style mandolin is actually quite easy. I was able to swing a deal with a guy with horns and a tail. I gave him my soul, he gave me my F5G. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blues.gif

[DryBones]

Getting a nice Gibson F style mandolin is actually quite easy. I was able to swing a deal with a guy with horns and a tail. I gave him my soul, he gave me my F5G. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blues.gif
So you've met Big Joe? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Just kidding! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Ivan Kelsall]

Nice one Jason - very funny,it really did make me laugh!. I look forward to the forthcoming courtcase for libel against Big Joe (just kidding !),
# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # Saska

[JeffD]

I think the scrolls are appropriate to the era in which they became popular. Lots of things in those days were ornamented and decorated. The scroll is almost whimsical, as are the points, sheer exhuberance of the designer, and countless headaches, I assume, for the builder.

I would own one of each if I could, but till then, I do also like the straight forward simplicity of the A style.

My favorite would have to be the bowl back however.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Alex of the North]

"Scroll disdain" is a bit negative for me too, even though I'm the one who proposed it on the last page. I can see why people like the things, but they don't appeal to me personally. I don't disdain other people's scrolls, in other words. I just bought an Eastman 604, and I love it, but I would remove the marquetry around the oval hole if I could. Jeff D is exactly right, the scroll was appropriate to the era, it's a very victorian gew gaw. I guess I'm into more modern aesthetics. I guess I could find something even more stripped down and modern than an Eastman, but it would have cost more than I choose to afford.

[Robert Moreau]

F's, A's, Jazzmandos, bowlbacks, citterns, lutes, ouds... scroll or no scroll, gotta love them all.

[Jim MacDaniel]

From a purely aesthetic point of view, I tend to favor mandolins without scrolls, although I do enjoy several designs inspired by the F5; e.g., Monteleone, Holst, Giacomel, Mann, Rigel's G, Breedlove's K -- as well as Breedlove's new F-style.