Stolen loar

[F5G WIZ]

Wow! Talk about stealin' something that is unsellable. That would be like stealing a Piccaso, no way anyone reputable would buy it. You never know, the guy who took it might not know what he has, keep an eye on Ebay! Hopefully it doesn't get abused and turns up at a pawn shop somewhere soon. What are the chances that it was targeted by someone who knows what it is? Wonder if anything else was taken during the robbery? Good luck to however it was stolen from. I hate theives!! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[Dan Cole]

I think most stolen goods with that high of a visibility or uniqueness usually end up in high end collection, locked away until the buyer dies.

I just don't see how one could sell it, play it at a jam, etc. Too many honest folk would ask too many questions.

I hope it it quickly found and returned unharmed.

I would bet who ever stole it actually has no idea WHAT they stole, its just a mandolin or a possible buck to the thief.

[bradeinhorn]

i agree - anyone who knows what it is would surely not think it would be easy to sell for what it is worth, if at all.

[Tighthead]

They don't have to sell it for anywhere near what it's worth--a 10th of it's value would make a good score for a thief.

How many out there would come across a Loar for 15k and buy it in a heartbeat, without asking "too many" questions? More than one might think.

A low down, dirty thing to do, no doubt. But if people will steal one-of-a-kind masterpiece paintings with the intent of selling it, they'll certainly steal a serial-numbered stringed instrument.

[dirty harry]

I'll bet it will surface, although both inside labels may be missing. Maybe other forms of identification are there though.
Harry http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[Dan Cole]

Removing the labels in my opinion makes the crime even worse!

[SGraham]

The thief (a druggie) will probably take it to a pawnshop and get $500 for it.
Steve

[JeffD]

Has this happened before with a Loar, and what was the result?

[Darryl Wolfe]

They are usually recovered. However, see my post and other discussion in Vintage Instruments, LPOD thread

[sgarrity]

Speaking of stolen Loars.....was Peter Rowan's H5 ever recovered?

[Darryl Wolfe]

yes

[Potosimando]

My good friend's car was broken into a few years back (smashed a window), and her $70,000+ violin was stolen. Yeah, $70 grand and she leaves it in her car--just for a little while she said, and in the shade...but in a good-sized city, for crying out loud. #She is a professional violinist and should have known better (actually professional or not, she should have known better). #

Anyway, she immediately alerted all the pawn shops in the region, and hardly slept for three days, whereupon she got a whispered call from a local pawn broker who told her that a guy just showed up with her violin and wanted $100 for it. #"What would you like me to do?" he asked. #Obviously she told the pawn broker to just pay the $100.

You always hope these sorts of things turn out so well.

[Ivan Kelsall]

On a past thread that someone posted,one of Ricky Skaggs's Mandolins went missing on his way over to the UK this summer - any news on that ?. I don't know which Mandolin it was,but on a photo of him playing at the Cambridge Folk Festival,it looked like he was playing his Gilchrist. Surely he wouldn't have been bringing his Loar over ?,
# # #Saska

[JeffD]

So you are thinking that the thief didn't steal the mandolin because of its vlaue, because if he even knew its value he would know he couldn't easily fence it.

That would imply that its not just the elite instruments that are at risk, but all of our mandolins.

[Super400]

Anything of perceived value is at risk. For this mando to have been the target of the burglary is certainly possible, but not probable. A thief is usually an opportunist, not using a lot of planning. Easy access to a hotel room is most likely more the cause than a carefully planned abduction of the Loar. Had it been a Fullerton, it would still be gone. I don't mean to take a shot at Fullerton, but the $$ value gap between a Loar and a Fullerton is unquestionable. The perception of the thief is that it might be something that can get them a few bucks.

[Jonathan Peck]

I keep checking back on this thread hoping that the next post will be a report that the instrument in question has been recovered. Nothing worse than someone stealing a man's tools.

-jonathan

[mrmando]

Thefts at hotels are usually crimes of opportunity. It is far more likely that the thief stole the Loar because it was a musical instrument than because it was a Loar. Since this Loar was undocumented until 6 months ago, it would seem that not many people knew that its owner possessed a Loar.

The day before the Loar was stolen, I had a suitcase stolen from a B&B in Victoria, B.C. There were no "valuables" per se in the suitcase. Apart from clothes, it contained my wife's new prescription glasses, which cost us a pretty penny but are worthless to anyone else. It's my own ruddy fault for leaving the suitcase out in the courtyard while we checked in, and then forgetting about it for over an hour. I'm sure the thief searched it for money, credit cards, passports, etc., and then dumped it when he didn't find any. The point is, the suitcase wasn't stolen because the thief knew what was in it.

Bright Angel Lodge is a 30-second walk from the South Rim of the Grand Canyon. Some of the rooms are in detached bungalows. There would be a lot of foot traffic in and around the lodge; all tourist areas are likely spots for thieves looking to jack a camera, backpack, or other item. When I've left my instruments in a hotel room, I've often locked the cases and then cable-locked them to something like a radiator or drainpipe to help prevent them from taking a walk.

Unfortunately, at a place like the Grand Canyon it's likely that the thief will go some distance before trying to do anything with the mandolin. Apparently there are no pawnshops in Grand Canyon Village or Williams. The thief would have to go a little further out, to Flagstaff or Kingman.

[Paul Kotapish]

In the SF Bay Area, the thieves tend to sell stolen instruments at flea markets and other venues where there is no chance of someone calling in a serial number and description to verify that it's not on a stolen-instrument list. Much, much harder to track, and much harder to recover. And there are probably a bunch that never make it to market at all and end up as toys or wall hangers.

Never leave your instrument in the car!

[PhilGE]

Never leave your instrument in the car!
Which reminds me of the story of a friend who left his banjo in the backseat of his car when he went into a bar. After a few minutes he remembered the banjo and dashed out to the parking lot, but TOO LATE! He found the windows of the car smashed and five more banjos in the backseat.

[B. T. Walker]

Or the thief could die, and his family could unknowingly sell it in a yard sale for a couple of hundred dollars. From earlier threads, the owner would have to pay you to get it back were it to then be discovered.

That's too much. Sorry. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[NoNickel]

Not true. One of the reasons that you always need to be careful where you are buying is that a thief can give no better title than he has. His family would have no better title and if you found it had been sold at a yard sale, you can get it back if you can prove that you are the owner (that is have good title), no matter how far down the line it gets transferred. The only exception is if it were sold to a dealer in instruments. A purchaser from a merchant (in goods of that kind) can transfer good title even if he bought from a theif. Uniform Commercial Code Section 2-403

[F5G WIZ]

[quote=altair38,Sep. 12 2007, 18:22]Or the thief could die, and his family could unknowingly sell it in a yard sale for a couple of hundred dollars. #From earlier threads, the owner would have to pay you to get it back were it to then be discovered.


I think it depends on the laws in the state where you live. #My house was robbed a few years ago. #Luckily no instruments were taken but a lot of other stuff was, guns, jewelry, cameras. #What little bit of my stuff that I found in the pawn shops I had to buy back from the pawn shop at the price they paid the crook, the stuff they had already sold, IE my wifes wedding rings, could not be recovered from the person the pawn shop sold it to. #That is Ohio's screwed up pawn law. #Really made me mad that I had to buy back my own property, then on the way home from the pawn shop, and already steaming, I get rear ended by a guy with no insurance. #Bad day all around! # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[TonyP]

That's outrageous Wiz!!! Here in CA, it's all receiving stolen goods, so pawn shops have to be verrrry careful. I know of one guy, and he's probably reading this thread, who had his Loar stolen, and they found it in I think he said NYC. He flew out and got it. I don't remember him saying he had to pay to get it back. But, then again, my best friend had his x girlfriend get mad at him and back up to his place with a moving van while he was at work. She took everything, right down to the carpets. He only had what was on his back, and in his van. One of his guitars, I believe a '57 ES 335, amongst others she sold to a collector in Modesto. He went to the cops and they said it was domestic, nothing he could do. The collector told him too bad too. Thieves, no matter what their apparent social status suck. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[F5G WIZ]

Yeah, I thought it was outrageous too, I called a lawyer and was told that was the way it is in Ohio. I even had to go through a background check and pay sales tax to get back my guns and the felon who sold them the guns didn't even have to prove they were his. Pawn shops in Ohio are directly supporting crime. All they have to say is, we didn't know it was stolen and we didn't know he was a convicted felon. I won't set foot in a pawn shop in Ohio.

[Tim]

That buying your own stuff made me wonder. There is a legal difference in knowing it is your stuff and being able to prove that is is yours. Was that part of the issue?

[jim simpson]

A good friend had her banjo stolen in Phila. quite a while back. Another friend spotted it at a pawn shop on South St. She had to pay to get it back - It didn't seem right to me and no, she didn't find 2 more in the back seat!

[MikeEdgerton]

and no, she didn't find 2 more in the back seat!
Amazing, that's where I thought you were going. She should have reported the find to the police officer handling the case. Don't point it out to the shop owner, let the police do it.

[8ch(pl)]

I read a few years ago about a Stradivarius (that's a violin) being stolen from Carnegie Hall by (I believe) someone who worked there. 70 or so years later the man died and his family found the instrument among his effects. An insurance company had paid a claim on the Stradivarius, so it belonged to them. They paid the family a finder's fee after they sold it.

If anyone can add to or correct anything about this story, please do so.

[Rroyd]

I would assume that if it had been located, it would be posted on the cafe, but perhaps this should be bumped up to maintain its presence in our minds. It is out there somewhere, and could be hanging on a second-hand store wall 2000 miles away. (As I recall, the one mentioned by TonyP spent some time in such a place not too far from where it had been stolen before passing through the hands of a well-known vintage instrument dealer on the other side of the country.)

[F5G WIZ]

Noticed that the stolen Loar was taken off the stolen mandolin list. Does anyone know if it was recovered?

[sailaway]

i recall that about 3 weeks ago a loar showed up on ebay, serial number was provided. i emailed the seller who was a music shop with a good e bay and a BUY IT NOW price. shortly there after the listing DISAPPEARED, and the seller store has refused to reply to my email.... i wonder, could this be the bright angel still missing loar http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Big Joe]

Our laws in Tennessee are more favorable to the victim. Our store recovered a couple instruments stolen. One from a pawn shop. We were not out, the pawn shop was. They did catch the crook and he did go to prison. Then my son's house was broken into a few years ago. They got his prized vintage J200 guitar and a couple other inexpensive instruments. I got a call from a dealer who knew a collector who purchased that guitar from someone that was very suspicious for a ridiculoulsly low price. He bought the guitar. The police went to his house and collected it. We were not allowed to pay the guy who bought the guitar. We did let him know of our appreciation in other ways though. I don't think he lost anything if you know what I mean. Enough said on that.

Each state has laws that govern recieving of stolen goods. Many states will award the property back to the original owner if there is sufficient evidence it was theirs to begin with. Make sure you have a list of all your instruments, their serial number, and preferably a photo of that instrument. In the event of theft you will have enough proof of ownership to suffice and you will have a MUCH better chance of recovering your instrument. In my son's case, his guitar was pretty well known because of his place in the music industry and the fact his guitar was autographed to him by Jimmy Dickens. That made identification quite easy.

[Rroyd]

Hopefully we will continue to be updated on this topic, as there are some aspects about it that are interesting, to say the least. Its recent surfacing as an undocumented Loar and the appraisal via photographs which apparently are not available for comparison to any instrument that might turn up makes one wonder whether this one is going to be located under the usual circumstances. Sailaway's post is food for thought.

[sailaway]

here is another true stolen instrument set of stories: world famous mandolininst acciedently leaves his instrument a gibson Loar era H mandola on sidewalk as he check into motel. it diappears... it turns up 300 miles from Pgh at Vintage instruments of Phila. ( the serial # is truthfully reported on the net.....) someone on the net tells Vintage that it is a famous player's stolen mando from pittsburgh... Vintage returns it to rightful owner, the Moon twp police meanwhile get the name of the crook from Vintage, as crook sold it for a couple thousand bucks to Vintage adn took a check, haha-- motel video shows the crook who was a motel guest STEALING it from the park lot -- OWNER had a name tag on the case and a name tag inside -- BOTH of which name tags were missing from the mandola when it was 'sold' to Vintage..so cops had enough info to prosecute the crook. Mean while, vintage is a hero, AND presumably vintage can turn the loss into the insurance co, OR get the $ from the crook as part of the criminal prosecution....Here insert soliloquay on the value of having NAME TAGS on the outside and inside, AND hiddne somewhere in the instrument case, AND having every weird sticker you can lay your hands on on the OUTSIDE of the case to make it unique and recognizable.....:angry:

[Rroyd]

Gee, it's been about a year since this supposedly happened, so here is an update. The stolen Loar was apparently a copy made 7 or 8 years ago; since it was appraised for insurance purposes using
photos, (by Gruhn's, as I recall) one would assume it was well done, and the builder must have done some research on an appropriate serial number and date for it to appear authentic. However, there were too many unanswered questions, like "has anyone actually seen this mandolin in person?" When the answers were found, they did not point to a missing Loar at all, bringing about an investigation of what turned out to be a case of insurance fraud.

[B. T. Walker]

Thanks for the update. You always wonder what happened in these cases, and now we know. Figures it was a scam.

[Bill Snyder]

In Texas if you can prove that merchandise in a pawn shop is your stolen property the pawn shop is out the money they paid for it. You get your stuff back. Proof can be a list of serial numbers, but a unique, custom made ring, even with photos is hard to prove to be yours (no serial #) so you might not get it back.
This happened to my brother a few years back. He got back several tools but could not get back his wife's jewelry.

[man dough nollij]

This thread is from before my time here on the cafe, but it's interesting. I don't have any super valuable instruments, but I think I'm going to stick labels on the inside of them. Just a little label with my name and address stuck on the neck block could greatly help get it back if it ends up in a pawn shop. Also, taking a date-stamped picture of the instrument and a close-up of the label would be good, too.

[Aran]

I like to spend a month or so every year travelling in Asia or such like....

This year I came back from India to find I had been broken into and it really sucked. My then best mandolin was hidden in a black case under my bed and thank god was not taken. I must have a dozen instruments of one kind or another and was very lucky not to lose any, the junkie lowlife took all my playstation games and stuff (no loss as I play mandolin now).

This year all my axes are going into the safe at work when I'm away.

Just curious.... Is this thread now about a stolen Loar that isn't really a Loar??

[Rroyd]

Right. Perhaps a thread should be started entitled "The Loar that Wasn't."
After insuring a copy as an original Loar, and then having it stolen, the owner ended up being caught with his hand in the cookie jar, so to speak. There were some "interesting" aspects related to the "theft" itself, enough to make one wonder if the theft had been arranged, or had even taken place.

[D C Blood]

Here in Nashville there is a store called "Nashville Used Musical Instruments"...they advertise regularly on TV that they buy used equipment. One day several years ago our home was broken into and two Martin guitars were taken (they left my mid-level mando). Nashville Used MI was one of the first places we checked, and sure enough, later that same day they called us saying they had our guitars. The thief had sold them to the store for $400. We got them back, did not have to pay the store anything. Why does this store buy things that are obviously stoleen, you ask? Because the owner stands a much better chance of getting the goods back. Apparently their insurance covers losses like that. They pay by check , requiring photo ID, and the check has to be cashed at their own bank, with another ID. If more stores and pawnshops adopted this policy, more stolen instruments might be recovered. :)

[Capt. E]

The owner of a local music store told me a good story: A guy comes into the shop with a violin he wants to sell in exchange for a keyboard...the store owner sees easily this is a very good violin: the case was probably worth more than the keyboard the guy wants. While the staff keeps the guy busy looking at keyboards, the owner takes the violin over to the local violin shop to ask about it: out of the back come two police officers; Turns out it was a $100,000 18th century Italian violin stolen from a U of Tex student who had checked it out from the school (Violin owned by Mobil Oil and on permanent loan to the school). The store owner said the guy who brought it in was still at his shop...you can guess the ending.

[danb]

did I miss something here? I haven't heard the updates you folks seem to be commenting on about this reportedly stolen loar

[TonyP]

several posts back it was revealed the whole thing was an insurance scam Dan. Sounds about right with how it seems most known Loars #'s are cataloged. I didn't ever remember hearing what the serial # was. And it seemed suspicious that it was not all over the Cafe.

Made me remember when I first met a prominent NW luthier/dealer that told me about being at a festival way over 10yrs ago. And a friend came to him and told him there was a Loar for sale there for a good price. When they got looking at the mando and our friend started asking some pointed questions the guy got squirrely and took off. Smelling a rat he started following up and it seemed as though a not above board organization was using this as a way of making $$$. At that time I think Loar's were just starting to really skyrocket. All this said, I wondered when such a scam as this would be perpetrated, especially with the advent of the distressed MM's. While we on this board would know how to get hold of someone to tell if something was authentic, it would seem it's still possible to pull the wool over the eyes of a lot of unsuspecting folks.
I appreciate that this thread was updated.

[danb]

Was that post in this thread and deleted? i couldn't find it.. curious to know the details as I was involved in the initial reports etc

[cooper4205]

Dan,

check out Rroyd's post at 10:12 p.m. on Sept. 12, it's right above altair38's.

[danb]

ok, I see it. The original details sounded quite suspicious when I heard them. So this has been definitively settled as a case of insurance fraud? I realize there were some grounds for suspicion early on because nobody had ever inspected in in person- I suppose what I'm asking is "has this issue been settled with a smoking gun" or other evidence clearly establishing this?

[jim_n_virginia]

Here in Virginia if someone buys stolen stuff, it doesn't matter whether they say they didn't know or what, it that person doesn't give the stolen merchandise up they can be charged with recieving stolen merchandise.

A friend I know bought some really high end sound equipment for pretty cheap on the street and a week later the cops show up at his house. Someone who had been in his house recognized the equipment that had been stolen a few blocks away and secretly reported it.

The cops gave him a choice, give up the goods or be charged it was his choice. He gave it up but was mad that he lost the money he spent, which was not a lot.

Just proves that old saying, "if it is too good to be true it probably IS!"

[f5loar]

This reason alone is reason to have the F5Journal document your vintage prewar Gibson F5/H5/K5. It if gets stolen you got an established record for ownership and easier recoverey. Same goes for those that think they have a Loar but don't. Best get a 2nd opinion from someone who knows and get it registered in the F5Journal. Owner's names are withheld. Having your photographs of the mandolin on the web archives makes it easier to identify stolen mandolins too. You can change or remove those labels but you can't change that grain pattern or pearl inlays.

[Scott Tichenor]

Adding a link to a more recent discussion about this serial number (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?81016) for the benefit of someone finding this thread on a search. You should check the discussion at the link provided as the most recent information.

[mrmando]

Well, thanks to Antiques Roadshow, we finally have our smoking gun.