Mandolins for irish music?

[shifflab]

Hey, I'm new around here and to the mandolin. I was given a Harmony mandolin (acoustic A-model from the 50's-60's), and I'm wondering if this can be used for Irish music? Or are there mandolins specifically used for Irish music? I realize that certain models and brands are better for different styles of music, but is this instrument capable of playing it?

Also, what brands make good Irish mandolins?

Thanks for your help!

[Zako]

Funny that you mention it. #A Mel Bay Irish mandolin book by Dan Gelo actually features a Harmony on the cover. Maybe it just looks good on there, or maybe you might want to contact Dan and see what's cooking with that.
Oh yeah. #Try Weber.

[Caleb]

I'm no expert on the matter, but this subject is extremely interesting to me. I've been told that it makes way more difference to Americans trying to play Irish music what sort of mandolin they use than it does to Irish people, living in Ireland, playing Irish music. From what I've seen, lots of folks here seem to prefer an oval-hole, teardrop shape mandolin for this type of music, but they say that in Ireland they pretty much play what they have. Americans are notorious for making and following trends, so this makes sense to me.

It seems to me that anyone can use any kind of mandolin to play Irish music well. It's way more about the musician than the instrment, in my view. The first guy that I really saw playing Irish music well was using a resonator manodoin, which I was not expecting, but his playing and tone were both incredible.

I'm learning this type of music and am using a Kentucky A-syle with F-holes, which, traditionally, is a Bluegrass instrument. I guess it could be argued that it's got the "bark" for BG, and the purist will prefer the more mellow tones of and oval-hole, but I really don't put much stock in that kind of stuff. I got the Kentucky as my introduction to the mandolin world and it suits me just fine.

For what it's worth, I've seen these same types of issues come up in the guitar playing community. People wonder whay type of guitar for blues, fingerstyle, flatpicking, etc. Really, in most cases, the instrument that you have is the one that you need. Some of the best music in history has been made by people who played what they had and didn't know better. We just have the options today and that makes the difference.

Anyway, sorry to rant, but hopefully this has been helpful.

[Celtic Saguaro]

Your Harmony is a good start for celtic. Assuming it's in good condition, it will do just fine to learn on. I wouldn't worry about anything but learning to play and enjoying it.

[JeffD]

#I was given a Harmony mandolin (acoustic A-model from the 50's-60's), and I'm wondering if this can be used for Irish music?
Absolutely. A few months back I was borrowing a friends Harmony (Stella) A model, from 1965 or so. Wonderful fun instrument, well suited to Celtic music.

[Tim2723]

While many players will go for the flat tops given their 'Celtic' look and sound (whatever the heck that is), the archtop A or F style will cut through in a session better. #The mandolin is a relative newcomer to Irish music, and doesn't have an ancient tradition in the way the the harp and fiddle do, so there's really no such thing as an 'official' Irish mandolin sound. #

There is a thing called an 'Irish' mandolin though. #It is a flat top with an unusually deep body. #Some like them, some don't. # Personally, I think they're a gimmick by certain makers to identify the mandolin with Irish tradition and create a new market.

For Americans who have a wider choice of instruments available, the louder the better seems to be the first rule of thumb. #In an Irish session, you need to compete against fiddles, banjos, accordions, concertinas, and sometimes pipes, drums, and even pianos. For a great many players interested in volume, the arch top (A or F style) is the weapon of choice. #The tonal differences between F holes and oval holes is a personal preference. #Both show up with equal frequency. #Your Harmony will do just fine.

And oh yes, welcome to Mandolin Cafe!!

[shifflab]

I totally get what you guys are saying about using what you've got. This instrument was my grandfather's so theres a sense of pride that is larger than myself in it-- I want to learn from this instrument. Though, when I get to a point where I want to buy an instrument that suits my style I want to be informed.

Thanks for the info

[Tim2723]

There ya go. The very best reason I can think of. Stick around with us and have a ball playing Grandad's mandolin!

[Caleb]

There is a thing called an 'Irish' mandolin though. #It is a flat top with an unusually deep body. #Some like them, some don't. # Personally, I think they're a gimmick by certain makers to identify the mandolin with Irish tradition and create a new market.
I think you're spot-on with the "gimmick" comment. That was basically one of the points I was trying to make, but you said it better.

You're also correct about the mandolin being sort of the newcomer to the Irish music scene. I found that out after I started doing some research and looking for "Irish Mandolin" records. I found out pretty quickly that there really aren't any. And most "Celtic" mandolin stuff out there is really just Baroque music with a slightly Irish flavor to it. I LOVE that stuff, but it's not the pub sound that lots of folks starting out on mandolin are looking for. That stuff is all played on fiddles, banjos, guitars, etc. The mandolin players have to jump in a find a spot to play in from what I've gathered.

[Tim2723]

If you haven't done so already, check out the Chiff and Fipple website. While mostly an Irish flute and tin whistle site, it has a good forum on traditional Irish stringed instruments. There you'll find a lot of info on the mandolin specific to Irish music as well as lots of links to Irish mandolin recordings and artists. It's not nearly as much info as you'll find on the Cafe of course, but it is a more specialized Irish forum, so that's a helpful thing too.

[oggiesnr]

Over the years I've played Irish music on flat-tops, arch tops and round backs. I've played a couple of "celtic" style mandolins (a Sobell and a Fylde, neither were mine) and I didn't like them that much. They were beautiful instruments but for me they didn't work. I also find the idea of a mandolin being for "celtic" music odd. It assumes that there is an homogonous body of music which can be labelled "celtic" whereas there are huge differences between say the music of Kerry and Highland Fiddle music.

As far as Irish music is concerned the magic is in the ornamentation. Listen to any master Irish musician on any instrument and its the rolls, crans and turns which seperate them from the rest of us. Likewise I wouldn't get hung up about finding irish mandolin music on record, personally I think it's a blind alley (though it can be fun). Listen to the music and go from there, the instrument it's played on is irrelevant. I was taught Irish music by a fiddle player and at the time my main instrument was anglo concertina.

All the best

Steve

[emitfo]

Hi shifflab, I hope I got here in time! There's a lot of bad information and it is imperative that you know about this: If you attempt to play what is commonly referred to as "Irish" music on 50's-60's era Harmony mandolin you will be endangering not only yourself but the entire universe! When the first vibrations emanate from this instrument of destruction you'll probably smile and be pleased with the pleasant sound you're creating then, if you continue...I shudder to think! Life as we know it could be inextricably altered beyond the Rubicon! Fortunately I've been trained in how to deal with these Cosmic instruments. I will contact you and let you know where to send this dangerous weapon. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[PseudoCelt]

...they say that in Ireland they pretty much play what they have.
I think that's true - flattops with round holes have become associated with Irish music because that was what was available cheaply in Ireland in the 60s/70s, when Irish mandolin got started. Now, a lot of people play cheap A-styles with F-holes, because that is what you can buy easily. I've always suspected that if someone describes a mandolin as good for Irish music, all they really mean is that it doesn't have a traditional bluegrass tone.

Here in Scotland, I've seen all sorts of mandolins in sessions, including a few bowlbacks and resonators.

Patrick

[danb]

Indeed there is really no special instrument required. It's what you like. It's not a "canonical" session instrument (where you'd expect to see one quite often at various sessions) so there is really little in the way of a traditional type of instrument requried. Mostly folks nowadays choose loud ones!

[Steve L]

For now, I would take your grandfather's Harmony in for a pro set-up to get it in prime condition and play it until you really feel you need something better/different. I play a Breedlove KF archtop and carved back with f holes. A lot of bluegrass players aren't wild about these, but I only play Irish and i like it a lot. 3 things I especially like is the wide( 1 3/16") neck, the radiused fingerboard, and the oversized fret wire. For me, much easier playability, better for drone notes and easier for open sounding chords vs closed position voicings.

As others have said, any good instrument will do. One thing it seems many Irish players do is use very thin picks yielding a somewhat thin sound. Try using a relatively thick pick. I like the Dunlop Tortex jazz guitar picks, either the green or purple. I actually like the very pointy ones but most mandolin players seem to dislike the point on their picks. I can get the triplets and trebles much better with those myself.

Good luck and be sure to keep your eye on the "Celtic" section of the board.

[POB]

I'll concur with what's been said here thus far.

I play guitar and some mandolin at a regular session here in Galway with another mandolin player who plays a Davy Stewart and a Joe Foley. Both are excellent instruments and probably fit the stereotype of what people class as "good for Celtic". Sometimes another mandolin playing friend of ours sits in and he plays a Collings M1 (I think). As for me, well I currently play a rather more humble StewMac Campfire kit (soon to upgrade to a Don Kawalek Mill Creek kit when I get the time to finish it...). All very different instruments and I've certainly never heard anyone pontificate on the suitability of one instrument versus the other (even if the Campfire is somewhat...rough around the edges compared to the other instruments I mentioned . http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif )

[danb]

I am quite fond of harmony mandolins by the way. They have great tuners, they intonate, and I love the look of the batwings. I have an electric/acoustic and bought an acoustic batwing for a friend of mine to learn on. I think they sound pretty good too!

[Tim2723]

And when looking for Irish mandolin music on CD, be wary of recordings labeled 'Celtic'. A lot of those CDs are little more than New Age music played on synthesizers heavily processed to sound mysterious. They are frequently labeled "A Celtic Journey" or some such thing and usually have a picture of a beautiful young woman in a gossamer gown, her long hair blowing in the wind of the New Zealand seaside (where The Lord of the Rings was filmed).

You'll find very little Irish mandolin on those.

[POB]

...They are frequently labeled "A Celtic Journey" or some such thing and usually have a picture of a beautiful young woman in a gossamer gown...
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif So true. The mystical windswept woman is the leprechaun of the new Millenium.

[Tim2723]

Gee Pádraig, do you mean that Irish girls don't always dress like that? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[POB]

Begorrah, no!

[Tim2723]

Of course, she could also be standing in a potato field in Idaho for all it matters. #As long as it's green, you know.

I can't tell you how many people I've run into who love 'Celtic' music but can't understand what I'm playing, having never actually heard ITM. #They also often intend to learn to speak Celtic one day.

Saints preserve us! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Steve Baker]

Surprisingly, no one has mentioned Simon Mayer yet. He has a variety of books and cds on "Celtic Mandolin", only he's the real thing. Check him out at Elderly.

FYI.

Steve

[DryBones]

BTW, its a tradition here that when you mention an old mandolin handed down from a relative that you post a picture of said mandolin. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif We love photographs

[Narayan Kersak]

For a year I played an alvarez a800 in the irish group I'm in. No one complained and it was a lot of fun. Now I have a mowry flat top that works just as well, and sounds a hell of a lot better and louder. Still no one complains, and it is a lot of fun.

[ilovemyF9]

I have a Weber Y2K and the volume keeps up with the fiddle, guitar, bouzouki and accordian players that I have sat in with. No probs! I found a heavy pick helps as well.

[danb]

here's a laugh for you all:

http://www.beimborn.com/cq/celtic_quest_cover.jpg

I'm recorded on that playing bouzouki & mandolin. Yes, there are crickets and waves crashing against the majestic new zealand coast. Yes, that is stonehenge, but hey.. all part of the "land of celts"?

Oh yes, and for some reason there are loon calls in it. A bird native to minnesota for the most part. I think it was originally celtic though..

[Tim2723]

That's great Dan! But to be truly Celtic in the New Age tradition it must be sung by long-haired maidens with henna tatoos and be recorded by elves.:laugh:

[Jim MacDaniel]

shifflab -- from my limited experience, it seems that when it comes to ITM, the mandolin you choose to play is less important than the music. The moral: play the mandolin that you like, and learn the tunes favored by -- and as played by -- your local sessions. (I am still working on both of these ;)

Also, as you are new to your instrument, if you can find a local "slow session", these are a great forum in which to learn the tunes, and improve your playing skills.

[Rick C.]

So Dan,

Should I get a really good loon that can stay on pitch, or can I just sample it? #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I do have a couple of turkey calls around the house here somewhere, pretty sure I still have a deer grunt call in the truck from last season...

Seriously, at the All Ireland last year, most of the competitors were playing instruments many here would consider "junk", including the guy who won the senior category. #But you know, none of them sounded -bad-, and since they weren't having to compete with louder instruments they were entirely adequate.


# # # # # Rick

[cwtwang]

As long as the Harmony is set up nicely and feels good/is in tune/intonated correctly, it should be fine for learning Celtic then, save yer money for three years or so for a used Sobell and keep the Harmony for your backup/camp/beach/fishing/ mandolin http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Cheryl

[Caleb]

Surprisingly, no one has mentioned Simon Mayer yet. He has a variety of books and cds on "Celtic Music", only he's the real thing. Check him out at Elderly.

FYI.

Steve
True. I just picked up his record "Music from a Small Island" and it's great.

[mistercliff]

I tend to agree with the general consensus here and that's to make your music and not worry so much about if the instrument is in the right fashion. Your music is the concern. Certain instruments may sound a little more "traditional" than others, but it's really your style that is the priority. I used to live in Africa and my musician friends would make music with literally whatever they could find, using the rigid edges on a Fanta bottle with a nail to get a washboard-like sound, banging cans together for percussion. To be honest, I have a hard time ever even imagining better sessions than those since they had total heart. You can have the best instrument in the world, but it's the heart that makes the difference.

[Dagger Gordon]

If your mandolin is fairly easy to play and has got reasonable volume it will do fine.

I had been playing for years without any concept that some mandolins were considered better for 'Celtic' than others. In fact I didn't know that until Mandolin Cafe, quite recently really. I bought a Sobell because I had heard Dave Richardson of the Boys of the Lough playing one, and liked his sound. I'd no idea that bluegrass guys used F5s or anything like that.

Actually there's a lot of things I didn't know, such as DUD DUD pick direction for jigs etc etc.

These things never worried me before because I wasn't aware of them.

I think most people in Ireland probably make do with the best they can find and don't worry about it that much. They will be judged on their playing rather than their instrument.

[red7flag]

The two oval A instruments I have are really well suited for Celtic music. #I was surprised how good the Stanley is though. #The clear tone through the registry feels comfortable with Irish tunes. #Probably my favorite playing Irish music is the White Dove. #It has a clear voice, but for an oval hole it projects well too. #When I play that instrument, I naturally gravitate to my Irish tunes. #I have never played with an Irish group. #The Irish songs I play are either ones I wrote or ones I like. My experience is mostly playing in bluegrass groups. My love of Irish music, just comes from the heart.
Tony

[Santiago]

If your grandfather played Irish music on it, there's no better testimony to its authenticity.

[KanMando]

This discussion forced me to go to the basement and retrieve this LP circa 1976 - that's right vinyl. The front cover photo shows Andy Irvine holding what appears to be a "teens" Gibson A mandolin (back side). This is confirmed by the photo in the following post.

[KanMando]

Here's the photo from the back cover. #Paul Brady has the Gibson now. #
This is a great record by the way - it was on the Mulligan label.