Flying fingers

[claytonstewart]

OK, I've got a bit of an issue with my left hand when playing fast or playing a technically difficult song.

I sometimes start to get what I call "flying fingers", meaning that instead of keeping my fingers calm and close to the strings, they begin to fly around and eventually I start to lose control of them. They've even threatened the guy sitting next to me a time or two!

Any suggestions on keeping the left hand cool under fire?

[dcoxmandolin]

Ok, here's a thought for you. Music gets you excited so let me ask you this. Does this problem occur when you are doing the songs at home? My experiences from jams are that you get out of your comfort zone. Banjo players are the worst about this, I mean as far as pure speed goes. The next time you have a "Flying Fingers" trainwreck just think of the song or songs, leave the jam for a few minutes and wander of where it's quiet. Repeat the songs and at the comfort level you are used to. See if the problem goes away. It sounds like you need to just slow the songs down and work on your technique and attack the songs another day. I hope this helps. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[jmcgann]

Practice slowly (slower than you think) and keep your fingers down as you ascend the strings. (http://www.johnmcgann.com/techtips.html)

[micall5]

I get the same thing. I usually do have this problem when trying to play too fast and mostly in front of others. I feel it's because I am a bit slower (still) and try and keep up with a tempo that is above my ability. This may not be your case but it sounds similar. I am guessing I just need more practice, for myself, but also to calm down in front of others. Comfort is key I believe.

[claytonstewart]

Well, my problem does occur almost exclusively when I'm playing with others or in front of people. But, if I really like a certain song and I'm trying hard to nail a tough few measures, it can happen then as well. I think John is right, that practicing real slow until the piece is second nature would help.

Being nervous in front of people isn't usually a problem for me but put an instument in my hands and I turn into a nervous wreck.....makes it tough to jam! I've tried the standard tricks(playing for one person or trying to picture something peaceful) but they haven't worked so swell.

What do or did you guys use to get comfortable?

[MikeEdgerton]

When you can play it without thinking about it and it becomes more like a simple muscle response then you don't have the problem.

[entau]

what mcgann said - and I have found that by changeing the way I hold the neck with the left hand helps -

if you watch people like Mike Marshall, Thile or Ronnie M play

#1 they have mandos with super skinny necks
B. they tend to cradle the neck in thier palm - rather then press against the back of the neck with the thumb - ( for certain positions and notes it seems the thumb does have to press on the back of the neck)

low action helps - but just generally relaxing is the key

I hope I'm not confusing anyone or giving illadvice
but I definatley have the flying finger curse - carried over from guitar.

[jmcgann]

I don't cradle the neck with the palm at all- the point of contact is the thumb on the side, and the pad just below the 1st finger-and that's it. If you collapse your wrist or try to hold it like a baseball bat, you won't get a mile down the road without inviting tendonitis, carpal tunnel or more...

I also don't have a "super skinny neck"- it's a pretty standard size with a radiused fretboard.

I doubt any of the above named players cradle the neck with the palm.

[entau]

this is what i meant

[entau]

or this

[Steve Cantrell]

Check out some Mike Compton videos for economy of motion in the fretting hand. His hand barely appears to be moving.

[entau]

or this

[jmcgann]

In none of those pictures is the wrist collapsed or the neck "palmed". Notice the slight- slight- bend in each players wrist- it's closer to a straight line than a collapsed grip.

Notice the sunshine coming from under Gator's palm!!! Dead giveaway there.

[jasona]

Gator explains his grip in a video on D'Addario's site--and its exactly how John explained his left hand position. Same for Thile and, I expect, Ronnie.

[entau]

agian I apologize if my choice of words was misleading -

but I guess that's why I am not a mandolin teacher.

[jmcgann]

No problem, I am only jumping in to help clarify what I think you meant to say http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

It's tricky trying to explain technique in words, when a picture is worth 1000. The other thing is that there may be a dozen ways that work, but 250 that don't work, if you define "work" as "allowing you unlimited potential". Some approaches and techniques make you "hit the wall" and hinder progress...like the way I played for my first 13 or so years!

[claytonstewart]

OK, what held you at the wall, so I can avoid it???

I've been carefully watching my left hand, and the way I'm holding the instument is very similar to how Gator holds his. I have a Thile video in which he explains some about proper left hand movement, but it seems like it's aimed at much better players than myself....

Not to bring up to many of my problems(though I will) but I'm also pretty prone to getting a sore left elbow when I play a whole lot, say more than an hour or two per day. Any thoughts on that one?

[mandocrucian]

but I'm also pretty prone to getting a sore left elbow when I play a whole lot, say more than an hour or two per day. #Any thoughts on that one?


I think you just need to schedule a one-shot lesson with a qualified instructor who knows about ergonomics to show you how you should position the instrument and hold the thing for maximum efficiency. Or you can just keep do what you're doing and shell out later to a doctor about your (oncoming) RSI problems.

Niles H

[claytonstewart]

[QUOTE]
shell out later to a doctor about your (oncoming) RSI problems

Not sure what RSI is. However, is there a specific way to hold the instrument that aleviates the problem? I never had this problem with guitar.

I guess I had similar issues when I used to rock climb, but I wouldn't think the two are related...

[Peter Hackman]

In none of those pictures is the wrist collapsed or the neck "palmed". Notice the slight- slight- bend in each players wrist- it's closer to a straight line than a collapsed grip.

Notice the sunshine coming from under Gator's palm!!! Dead giveaway there.
To me it looks as if Ronnie and Mike are chording, whereas Chris is single-stringing. His left hand position looks absolutely exemplary to me.

Chording will often cause a slightly concave arching of the wrist,
far however from causing contact between the palm and the neck.
The Monroe chop chord is worst; as far as I can see Del is capoing
at the first fret, so it could be Ronnie is fretting the
chop Bb.

It's a wide-spread myth that necks must be super-thin for super playability.
If someone asked me how the neck shapes differ between my guitars I couldn't answer; it means so little. Between my two mandolins the decisive difference is the nut and the fretboard. One is radiused.

[mandocrucian]

RSI = repetitive stress injury
more info (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=repetitive+stress+injury&btnG=Google+Search)

[jmcgann]

OK, what held you at the wall, so I can avoid it???

The opposite of this advice. (http://www.johnmcgann.com/techtips.html)


My former technique:

1) Held pick in tight fist
2) Played from elbow rather than wrist
3) Bashed right index fingernail into string with pick attack, causing divot in nail
4) Lifted each left hand finger up into the air while ascending string
5) Pick lifted out into air after attack rather than staying low to string
6) Held pick dead perpendicular to string rather than angled, spanking the string rather than drawing tone
7) No metronome practice and rushed phrases
8) Improvising from licks rather than melodic variations (on fiddle tunes)
8a) Wondered why my playing sounded bad # # # # #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[mando.player]

John's advice on keeping your fingers down until you need to move them has really helped my playing. In addition to playing faster (speed is relative in my case http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif ) it's made a huge difference in my tone. I play much cleaner as a result of it. It took a while to get used to, but now it's almost second nature. It's the first thing I address when learning a new tune.

[claytonstewart]

jmcgann, have you been spying on me?? I think I'm guilty of most of your items, although my nails are divot free. I'll work on your tips.

[dcoxmandolin]

Just a thought here as well. We have all had those moments when we got nervous in front of a croud or a jam. Thats something that will pass as soon as you quit worrying about what others may be thinking. Just relax, it's just music so have fun with it. I learned a long time ago that people won't shoot you if you don't have a good break.

That stuff McGann is talking about is good but everyone is different. I hold my pick much differently than Thiele, I've tried to hold it like he suggests but no dice, it won't work for me. Every person has to determine what works for them as far as position of fingers, pick angle and grip of pick and such. Take Sam Bush for starters, he has flying fingers and I think it's cool. I spoke with John Moore several times and came away with the above mentioned thoughts.

Time and practice is key. As for me, I am a Technican by trade and so I approach my mandolin style and playing like I approach a piece of machinery that's broke. I listen to it, make repairs and if I have troule with something, I disassemble that part of a break and rebuild it until I have it right.

Just remember this, the joy is in the bluegrass journey so pick away and it'll all come together with time and practice. Be yourself!!!!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[lastchair]

) Held pick dead perpendicular to string rather than angled, spanking the string rather than drawing tone


John, which angle should it be? (rotated on vertical axis of the pick) If 12 noon is dead center, is it 1:00 or 11:00 that is better?

or is it rotated on the horizontal axis, leading with top edge of pick or leading with bottom edge of pick?

[Stephanie Reiser]

) Held pick dead perpendicular to string rather than angled, spanking the string rather than drawing tone


John, which angle should it be? (rotated on vertical axis of the pick) #If 12 noon is dead center, is it 1:00 or 11:00 that is better? #

or is it rotated on the horizontal axis, leading with top edge of pick or leading with bottom edge of pick?
Mike Marshall taught me to angle my pick ahead some, and it has made a world of difference.

[lastchair]

Hmmmm... I guess a picture is worth 1000 words here. Not sure what ahead means, is it

------------------- string
\ pick

whereas right now I'm slapping the string sideways

--------------------string
- pick

[Don Stiernberg]

There's a drill I've been teaching for years intended to counteract the "flying fingers", but first I must concur with my esteemed colleagues Dr. Hokkanen and Dr. McGann, what they have said above resonates with my experiences...particularly the part about having someone review your hand position IN PERSON with an eye toward avoiding repetitive stress injury.

Anyway, the drill:Go to the G string, 5th fret. Play consecutive frets and fingers...C, C#, D, D#. Hold them down. Now, do the same activity on each string, following this rule: YOU ARE ONLY ALLOWED TO LIFT THE FINGER THAT IS GOING TO PLAY THE NEXT NOTE. When you get to the C note on the E string, you're done, go back to the low string to start over again. It's a non-musical drill, or at least not a real melody, but each note should be clear and sing with nice tone. PLEASE! Do this very gingerly, work your way into it so as not to pull tiny muscles in the fingers. I contend that maybe 5 minutes of this every other day might possibly give a payoff in a few weeks. You'll not only be strengthening muscles, but practicing assigning your fingers to specific positions. But again, PLEASE take just a little at a time, it's a bit like going to the health club, where you wouldn't start with too much wieght or too many repititions...

Jethro Burns got me thinking about this when he observed in a lesson that pulling your hand away from the fretboard and then pushing it back "takes time". He seemed to not be playing at all even when ripping off the smokinest lines...then again his hands were huge and he started working the mandolin at age 4 or whatever...

The drill above was actually shown to me in a bar between sets at a gig, by a fellow plectrist who attributed it to some famous guitarist, perhaps Frank Zappa..

DISCLAIMER: For some of our greatest mandolin players, the distance travelled by the fingers between notes is of no consequence. The same can be said of right hand techniques. People play every which way and get stunning results sometimes. Still I feel it pays to consider physiology, technique, common sense, what has worked for others, and such like, particularly as pertains to maintaining our hands so we can play in comfort for long periods of time, year after year.

Here's another little catch-phrase that may help...if your left palm is grabbing too much neck, or your thumb is over on top of the fretboard, or your left hand fingers are flattened out...."Drop your watch to the floor", which is just another way of saying push your (fretting) wrist away from your face so as to encourage the fingers to come down onto the board at more like a 90 degree angle.

Nervousness?Particularly in jam sessions, it's real easy to forget that music is not a competition. Sure we want to meet the standards of the music, be heard and recognised for our efforts, but ultimately you're there trying to sound a bit better than you did last time, and to blend with and compliment your fellow musicians. A lot of pickers are worried about what others think or how they measure up to the other cats,all the while forgetting that those people are (most likely)similarly preoccupied...

Try keeping notes on when things work out too, when you feel relaxed and get off good breaks. Why did that happen? Was it that you could hear yourself better than usual? Were you more aware of the chord progression or have a"worked out" break that settled in with the band? Keep track, then go for that each time..

I don't mean to go long here, but I've been interested in these areas for some time. I hope there's something useful here, and thanks for taking care of your hands!

[mando.player]

I had the opportunity to have John Moore as an instructor at Kamp. I was in one of the intermediate groups. Some how, by fate I suppose, we were all really interested in technique. After confirming that this was in fact what we wanted to spend our time talking about, John spent the better part of 2 hours answering questions and making suggestions. He's a pretty cool guy and I'm surprised you don't hear about him more. Emory Lester also spent a fair amount of time talking technique.

[Sonomabob]

Thanks all. This is really important stuff if you like to play everyday which I do.

I had a nagging elbow pain until I got some good advise on how to hold the left hand as mentioned in the posts. The pain cleared up. Sure glad that is isn't necessary.

Also my teacher has been working on different pick techniques and they work well too. The sound of the instrument can really improve. Try different things.

[jmcgann]

[QUOTE= ])
John, which angle should it be? (rotated on vertical axis of the pick) If 12 noon is dead center, is it 1:00 or 11:00 that is better?

or is it rotated on the horizontal axis, leading with top edge of pick or leading with bottom edge of pick?

I tip my thumb toward the floor slightly to get the angle.

[jasona]

5) Pick lifted out into air after attack rather than staying low to string
I had an instructor who worked with me to develop volume by literally bouncing my hand off the strings behind the bridge as I picked. I now get much better tone and speed through economy of motion. I appreciate what that lesson did for me, at the time, but I think it might have done more harm in the long run than good.

Great post BTW Don. Cubs going to the playoffs this year do you think?

[jmcgann]

That stuff McGann is talking about is good but everyone is different. I hold my pick much differently than Thiele, I've tried to hold it like he suggests but no dice, it won't work for me. Every person has to determine what works for them as far as position of fingers, pick angle and grip of pick and such. Take Sam Bush for starters, he has flying fingers and I think it's cool.

Well, actually, if you go to Youtube and look up Sam and watch his left hand, you'll find his left hand fingers do stay down on the strings. I've performed with him myself and seen him in action close up, and can testify that he is 100% cool, but does not have the 'flying fingers' syndrome.

I'm not trying to sell my guidelines as the only way to play, but these are things that I picked up from great players like Russ Barenberg, Sam, Andy Statman etc. firsthand, so it's not the "whatever works" school of thought- they are ideas that have a proven track record demonstrated by some of the best players on Earth. So, for myself, I found them good guidelines, and in fact, they really helped my development beyond words. I like to pass them on in my teaching, because they really bring results for people who are open minded and hard working. "Whatever works" led me up blind alleys and dead ends for many years.


As Dr. Don suggests, thought and common sense, as well as gathering ideas from great players, can lead to great things
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[claytonstewart]

Having only seen the two on video, I guess my firsthand knowledge is pretty limited, but Sam Bush does seem to have alot more finger movement than Chris Thile. Thile's fingers barely seem to go anywhere, even when he's crankin' thru something...but, just a difference in style I suppose.

I really like the post by Don in regards to incremental strength buildup. I am sure I will find that valuable. But in regards to stage nervousness, it can be hard for someone new to the scene to get comfortable for the simple reason that the scene is fairly "ethnocentric" or
"mandocentric", if you take my meaning.

[lastchair]

Thanks John. I will try tipping my pick thumb towards the floor.

One thing I wonder is if Thile had violin lessons. He seems to grip his mandolin like a violinist, as well as the way he uses his fingers. Of course he's got those nice thin elegant LONG fingers. Like Paganini.

[Peter Hackman]

Thile plays the fiddle on his first CD, one or two numbers, I believe.

[David Horovitz]

Some great advice here and, as has been noted, it's true that there are some who get great results without necessarily adhering to all of this technique.

I've been trying to work on increasing my volume while also not sacrificing good tone and clean playing. There is a video on YouTube of John Reischman performing this year that really got my attention. He's pumping his right arm and clearly bending from the elbow but is also flexing his wrist ever-so-slightly. I've experimented with this and have found I get greater volume, improved tone and smoother connection of notes.

Also, John's fingers seem to be lifting off the fingerboard a considerable distance or at least more so than would seem efficient, especially playing up tempo as in this video. The crux of his thumb and hand are also clearly pressed against the back of the neck. Notice how he slides his fingers up to a note but the thumb stays fixed and pressed against the neck.

I'm not trying to dispute any of the knowledgeable advice provided here but it just seems there are different ways of getting equally great results and some experimentation can be enlightening.

John Reischman & The Jaybirds Live (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nw_ESip7VsU)

[Peter Hackman]

I think jmcgann's advice is sound; then there are various deivations
and limitations determined by your individual anatomy. I've tried to observe my left hand knowing very well that my bahavior probably changes when I observe it. My impression is that my fingers stay on the frets whenever possilbe, and/or whenever needed. If I play a scale from g to d on the 3rd and 2nd strings
my index finger will be on its way to that d befor I've played the c. that seems logical and economic to me. If the figure moves up from g to c and then back again, my index finger will stay in place.

That's 3rd position. 1st is harder. I've tried to place my four fingers
slowly, one at a time, on the notes ab, bb, c, db
on the g strings (in the important key of Ab) and there's no way I can do it - my hands are too small.

Of course Ive had to adjust to that anatomical fact. I suppose that also is the reason I like to play up the neck on guitar (where the music is, anyway) and move freely between various scale and chord positions. Of course, I no longer know exactly what I'm doing, or why, but it can probably be analyzed.

But quite generally, go by the rules, break them when you know them, and for a definite purpose.

[danb]

I've got the flying fingers when I do hammer-on and pull-offs (push-offs?). I've found that with a nice light set-up you can really get some nice left-hand tone that way. If you've ever watched fingerstyle guitarists or Uke players you'll see what I mean, there is a whole world of note effects on the left hand you can get *with* the flying, but I think it's something to do intentionally and when you need it, rather than constantly. You wear out the muscles on your left arm too quickly otherwise http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Boy I can sure hear what Don is saying up there too, in a group situation the world changes. You always want your cool stuff you've been working on to be heard, but everyone has fun if you blend and keep it subtle. Taking the lead role and dominating is a pretty rare occurence, so you should develop a more conservative blending style of playing to optimize fun at jams!

[AlanN]

but everyone has fun if you blend and keep it subtle.
Hear Hear!

When a jam session disintegrates into a slug fest, it ain't fun no more, and it's no fun shushing people either. I find myself doing that at one particular jam too much. I don't like doing it [and the other <ahem> musicians don't like to be shushed], but I simply cannot hear the music when it gets too loud (which now that I see it in print, is somewhat of an oxymoron).

Subtlety, chord/groove implication, leave notes out - these are a few of my favorite things http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Klaus Wutscher]

John, that Tuck Andress site is a goldmine! Not only highly informative, but also really funny, when he talks about trying to be prepared for any given situation , and why it doesn´t work...

Here are some examples of realities I have personally encountered which were not sufficiently addressed by this style of preparation:


Borrowed guitar, different string spacing, bridge or nut sliding during string bending or vibrato, wrong strap length or strap breaking during solo, unwound guitar string used as backup strap gradually cutting through shirt and shoulder, sleeve snagging on bridge suddenly locking up hand, wrong pick, dropped pick, broken pick, no pick, pick stuck between strings, finger caught between strings, wrong strings, dead strings, sticky strings, blood on strings, broken strings, no extra strings, jar of honey spilled all over strings, vintage L-5's gig bag shoulder strap breaking immediately before album release concert for 5,000 people causing guitar to fall on concrete and creating crack from tailpiece to neck which gradually splits apart during performance with action getting higher and higher, amp too far away, amp too close, amp broken so play through bass amp or P.A., tone all wrong, overdrive bypass switch broken, cymbal in ear, band too loud, audience too loud, band downstairs too loud, bad monitors, no monitors, in-ear monitors broken so Patti is heard acoustically but Tuck is heard only through house PA 50 yards away resulting in Tuck being unavoidably out of sync with Patti by 1/6 second for whole show, guitar buzz, RF from nearby transmitter louder than the music itself, brownouts making organ pitch fluctuate randomly over an octave range, power outage, equipment plugged into 230 volts immediately before show, earthquake during show in high-rise, outdoor desert performance at 131 degrees with sand-blasting winds, sub-freezing outdoor mountaintop performance with snow storms and 40 mph winds, high altitude dizziness, no sleep, no food, too much food, wrong food, food poisoning, fever, locked bathrooms, way too many liquids before long show, nagging suspicion that zipper is down, contact lens falling out during moment of peak concentration, compromised hand position due to repeatedly sliding full width of stage while trying to keep playing but not collide with Patti on yacht in rough Finnish Gulf of Bothnia, charts blown away by wind, charts on thermal fax paper, charts in wrong key, charts without bar lines, charts with bar lines all displaced by two beats, charts in bass clef or C clef, chord charts with do/re/mi instead of C/D/E and everything else in Portuguese, realization that Miles Davis, Dizzy Gillespie, Joe Pass, George Benson, Chaka Khan, Bobby McFerrin or Steve Gadd just walked in, drunks falling on stage, drunks disrobing on stage, drunks grabbing instruments or band members, band members falling asleep during song, pigs frolicking in sawdust-covered frat house knocking over band equipment, thinly veiled animosity between bride's and groom's families erupting into violence during heartfelt version of My Romance, nightly juggling of playing and operating the lighting console/footswitches and talking to audience members and trying to reign in tempos and egos of various fellow top-40 band members, arrival at duo gig with unbelievably loud, aggressive fuzz-wah hard rock bass player to discover that assignment is to back up elderly white-haired and white-suited gentleman singing unfamiliar country songs to unforgiving patrons, crowded upscale happy hour dance floor unraveling into pandemonium as normal-looking customers all collapse to the floor and writhe around on each other while astonished saxophone-playing duo partner walks out leaving helpless solo guitarist playing The Hustle for 25 minutes, funk bass player imprisoned in lounge band insisting on popping strings throughout sensitive ballads, accidental imprisonment of Patti in wine cellar out of earshot during guitar instrumentals, onstage and on-instrument living creatures with varying numbers of legs, belligerent drunken bowling alley lounge customer demanding that funk band play Debussy's Clair de Lune while remainder of band looks expectantly at guitarist, drummer watching ball game on portable TV with headphones throughout performance, guest singer repeatedly changing keys at random moments, realization that the people who have just boldly picked up instruments and are unexpectedly sitting in are Herbie Hancock and Wah Wah Watson, guns drawn at rehearsals to settle disputes about form of song, marginally famous singer resorting to the dreaded "Do you know who I am" line, drummer and delusional would-be front man jumping off the drums in the middle of a song and mistakenly chanting "we don't need no drummer to keep that funky beat" to a dance floor packed with suddenly hostile former dancers, unstable band member deciding that it is his responsibility to educate the audience over the microphone, bass player playing random notes and rhythms because he is not a bass player at all but nonetheless booked the gig, drummer announcing that he killed somebody just before the show, swimming pool party turning into orgy with splashing on inexperienced solo electric guitarist sitting beside pool doing his first solo gig and fielding endless requests for the same song he had just played yet again, bride's and groom's special song evaporating from mortified solo musician's mind at the crucial moment, band member disappearing suddenly when his chair falls backwards off riser, unstable enormous man peaking on LSD brandishing artificial limb removed from his companion at audience and threatening band to "sing with this", mirrors on back wall of club causing introspective young guitarist to question meaning of his life at early stage in career.



DRUMMER ANNOUNCING THAT HE JUST KILLED SOMEBODY BEFORE THE SHOW #tops it all... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[Arto]

Sorry to disturb an important and very useful thread, but this wonderful clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ve_EhkMVbFY) got me thinking that flying fingers do not always mean bad technique. I don´t know if I have ever seen so beautiful, graceful left hand use...

(I do NOT doubt that for common mortals, keeping the fingers down is better option!)

[AlanN]

That is a wonderful clip, thanks for posting.