Is Bluegrass "Traditional Music"?

[Jeff_Stallard]

The recent bluegrass thread got me wondering whether bluegrass is, or is not, a traditional form of music. My first thought was NO, because it's a derivation of traditional American music, but someone responded with:


I looked up "traditional" and there was no mention of a number of years. The closest was talk of passing down from generation to generation and that can easily be done in the 50 years. Still when most people talk about traditional bluegrass they are using defintion number four from the Merriam-Webster online dictionary "4 : characteristic manner, method, or style"

So okay, I guess I'm wrong. But...I got thinking about it some more, and wouldn't that mean that any music that spans a generation is "traditional"? So...rap, rock n roll, and acid jazz would be traditional according to the above definition? That seems way too loose of a definition to me. Then I got thinking some more. Let's say that bluegrass was played with all electric instruments and a rock-tyle drum set. Would people still think it's traditional? So after a moderate bit of thought, here's my hypothesis:

Music is considered traditional by the instruments it uses.

For those who are getting a little defensive right about now, note that I'm making NO judgements about the quality, heritage, or legitimacy of bluegrass music. I'm merely exploring the definition of "traditional music" as it applies to bluegrass. It ultimately doesn't matter one bit whether bluegrass is considered traditional or not; it's still the same music.

So if you were able to get this far without hitting the Back button, give me your input. Do you think bluegrass is traditional music? If so, why? If not, why?

[GVD]

It ultimately doesn't matter one bit whether bluegrass is considered traditional or not; it's still the same music.

Nuff said the point is moot.

GVD

Since I was the one quoted, I'll chime in.

"Traditional" in regards to bluegrass seems to come up in a context when someone wants to distinguish the founding groups of the genre from the groups that are derivations. #With the caveat that it is hard to read "tone" in a typed message, the "bluegrass can't be traditional, it's not old enough" seems to usually be "I know more than you about musical terminology". My main point was that the word "traditional" has many meanings and to criticize someone for using a valid definition is wrong.

If you look at the fact that the Country Gentlemen were considered to be pushing the boundaries when they formed and are now frequently cited as a "traditional" band, illustrates how this is really a problem of scale and marginal changes.

Is there any confusion on this board about what is meant when someone says "traditional bluegrass", "newgrass" or "progressive bluegrass"? #I don't think so, it is just a convenient shorthand to facilitate communication among a particular group. #That sort of makes it jargon, which means it is very effective in the group, very confusing used outside the group.

[Coy Wylie]

From the standpoint of the general public, any form of music that uses only accoustic instruments (particularly an upright bass) would probably be considered traditional.

[onlyagibsonisgoodenuff]

If Bill Monroe had started bluegrass music with electric instruments and drums, then acoustic bands who play what most of us consider traditional bluegrass, would not be considered traditional anymore according to the definition, "characteristic manner method or style". So it just goes to show ya, ther's really no point in trying to define the music, let's just pick!

[Dru Lee Parsec]

How do we define "Bluegrass", "Traditional" and "Old Time" music? I don't know, but I know it when I hear it. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif But the thing that really touches me about this music is that unlike other music that I play (even Jazz) when I play bluegrass I feel this connection to the past. These are old songs that people from a different time and a different world wrote. When I play Ashokan Farewell for example I'm reaching back over 100 years into the past. Does that make it traditional? I still don't know, but I love to play it.

[Ted Eschliman]

My wife and I got a really good microwave as a wedding present 18 years ago. (This dates me, but microwave ovens were relatively new then...)
When we moved into our new house last September, it already had a good "built-in" one, so we didn't need the old one, despite the fact it works well, and as a "classic," its very solid.
My brother-in-law just moved out on his own, so we passed it down to him.
Guess he's getting our "Traditional" microwave...
Whoops, never mind. You have to plug it in.

Why should we have a mandolin cafe when there are children starving? #Nothing that is discussed on this board is really that important compared to some issues. #That is my answer to "there's no point" and similar responses in this thread.

As I re-read this, it occured to me that it might be more than semantics that the phrase "traditional bluegrass" isn't the same as "bluegrass is traditional music".

Classification of music is useful as a rule of thumb. #It is not useful if applied too strictly.

[Jacob]

#When I play Ashokan Farewell for example I'm reaching back over 100 years into the past. #
Ashokan Farewell was written in 1982 (http://www.jayandmolly.com/ashokanfaq.shtml).

[WaywardFiddler]

Ashokan Farewell reaches all the way back to 1982.
To be fair, that *is* the previous millenium....

As to "Is it traditional..." -- as The Bird said when they started labelling his music Be Bop: "Why can't we just call it music?"

[LilCreekster]

From that article

"...a Scottish lament written by a Jewish guy from the Bronx"


When I play Ashokan Farewell for example I'm reaching back over 100 years into the past.

Apparently he did a good job! I think the important thing is that it makes you FEEL like you are reaching into the past, feeling connected with a musical tradition that extends well before our own generation, and that of our parents and even grandparents (though that depends on how old you are hahah).

It's an interesting thought... what will be conisdered traditional in the future.

Though, thinking on it... I don't really ever think of classical as traditional, but using the timeline idea, it certainly would be! When I think of traditonal it's somehow simpler music, passed on through generations, families etc.

For the sake of brevity, I summarized in the earlier thread. #This is the full second definition of traditional:
2 : the handing down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example from one generation to another without written instruction

There is more than just the generational thing, essentially what Heather said.

[John Flynn]

There is an operational definition (as opposed to a dictionary definition) of the term "traditional." The way a tune is listed on a CD can either show the author of a tune or the term "traditional." Also, at some festivals, including one my band is getting ready to play, the tunes we do have to either be "traditional" or we have to have to show legal rights to play them. Looking at the definition that way, some bluegrass tunes are traditional and some aren't.

There is yet another possible way to think about this. Is the music actually part of an identifiable social tradition? Celtic music obviously is part of the traditions of the Irish and the Scots. Cajun music is similarly part of an identifiable social tradition. It is not as clear with American old-time music and blues, but I do think they can be linked to definable geo-socio-ethnic groups.

I love bluegrass. I think it is great music. Personally, though, I do not consider it traditional in that sense that it comes from an identifiable cultural tradition. Bill Monroe created it out of multiple music traditions to be commericially viable popular music. There is nothing at all wrong with that, but it does not put it in the "traditional" column in my book.

I do think the discussion is important for those people who care deeply about all these kinds of music. If we, as a community of musicians, do not strive to preserve these distinctions, then these distinctions will eventually cease to exist and there will be no distinct bluegrass, Celtic, old-time etc., just a mish mash of "What's Happenin' Now."

[mad dawg]

Per Meriam-Webster on-line, tradition is defined as:
1: an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior (as a religious practice or a social custom)
2: the handing down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example from one generation to another without written instruction
3: cultural continuity in social attitudes, customs, and institutions
4: characteristic manner, method, or style

These seem to permit one to consider Bluegrass, Rock, Blues, and folk as various forms of traditional music, since they seem to meet all four definitions (even the one about being passed on from one generation to the next).

[Paul Kotapish]

"Why can't we just call it music?"
Music is an awfully big river with lots of tributaries, branches, and backwaters, and sometimes it's useful to have a map with some names on it.

Bluegrass is one of the performance-oriented branches of traditional American mountain music. Among it's primary tributaries are traditional Appalachian fiddling, Appalachian variants of traditional English, Scottish, and Irish ballads, traditional gospel music, and traditional blues. Other tributaries include distinctly commercial songwriting, production values, and performance shtick. The music is passed on primarily via oral transmission, and the form is enjoyed as often as not in informal sessions for the amusement of the participants only. It may not be pure or all that old, but in my book, bluegrass is a traditional music form.

From a really strict constructionist view, the mandolin and guitar barely fit the category of traditional instruments, and the bass and dobro are definitely recent interlopers. The fiddle and the voice and possibly the mountain dulcimer were the primary vehicles for traditional mountain music until the 19th C. when banjo joined the act. Guitar and mandolin were common in urban parlors at that point, but it wasn't until sometime around the turn of the 20th C. that they became commonplace in rural folk music, too.

Are rock and hip hop traditonal musics?

At this point, there is a probably a good argument to be made that some rock bands are playing a form of traditional music.

As for hip-hop rapping, it can be seen as a branch of older African and African-American traditions of rhythmic storytelling, with tributaries including the Griot praise songs, Jamaican toasting, and southern ballads.

At some point every song, instrument, and style was brand new, so definitions and semantics get tricky. The fact that a lot of folks think that "Ashokan Farewell" is an old, traditional song speaks to the complexity of the issues and muddiness of the waters. The fact that the song is passed on from player to player and that it is held in esteem as a chestnut give it a fair amount of trad cred.

[Jeff_Stallard]

2: the handing down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example from one generation to another without written instruction


Though, thinking on it... I don't really ever think of classical as traditional

It sounds like the key is that it's music that's passed down socially. When I think of classical music, the word "social" never comes to mind.

[Paul Kotapish]

I love bluegrass. I think it is great music. Personally, though, I do not consider it traditional in that sense that it comes from an identifiable cultural tradition. Bill Monroe created it out of multiple music traditions to be commericially viable popular music. There is nothing at all wrong with that, but it does not put it in the "traditional" column in my book.
The boundaries between traditional music and commercially viable popular music have always been hazy, and often the finest, most knowledgeable purveyors of hard-core traditional music are also professional or semiprofessional performers, too.

Idiomatic purity is pretty hard to sustain over time, and traditional music has always evolved, shifted, and changed from day to day and village to village. The specifics exist in the moment only.

What Bill Monroe did was codify his vision of mountain music, just as almost anyone who plays and sings in front of another person does.

The Bothy Band did much the same thing to traditional Irish music, as did Ivo Pappasov with Bulgarian music, or Musikas with Hungarian music, or Vasen with Swedish music, or Martin Carthy and Dave Swarbrick with English music. Each of those ensembles developed their sounds squarely within those traditions, just as Bill Monroe was squarely within the tradition of mountain music.

[cam]

Thanks for the informative posts Paul Kotapish. I really enjoyed your workshops in the acoustic guitar mag.

[mandough]

Bluegrass... traditional? If you like Bluegrass where I live (downtown L.A.), well that's practically Punk!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[danb]

"Traditional" is often a term used to mask the expression of a preference for doing something in a certain way. Even where there is a definitive start point in a genre such as with Bill Monroe, the changes in style of his band over the years and the variety of music he played make the excercise of sticking a flag in the sand and defining X as "Traditional" and Y as "not traditional" is a largely semantic excercise.

"Traditional" is usually used in a negative sense as in "I don't really like that band, they aren't traditional". Personally I think that the two halves of that statement are equivalent!

[ngzcaz]

Since I indirectly started this thread, Thought
I'd throw in my two cents. There's an old saying
" Beauty is in the eye of the beholder "

Perhaps that says it all..

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Jeff_Stallard]

There's an old saying " Beauty is in the eye of the beholder " #
Is that a traditional saying?

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[f5joe]

Bluegrass Music ............... it is what it is.

That's enough for me. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif