Quick triplets

[MikeB]

I've been telling myself for some time now that I just don't care for those really quick triplets--or other ornaments--so characteristic of ITM on a lot of instruments. The truth is (drum roll, please) I just can't do them. I just watched one of Dan Beimborn's YouTube videos, and it was great, as are Kevin MacLeod's and anyone else's who can pull them off that well. I CAN'T.

I'd rather be able to do them and leave them out, than to leave them out because I can't do 'em. (Dang it!)

So, besides, hours of mindless practice (which I am prepared for by already doing plenty), does anyone have any advice on how to 'snap' 'em off like Dan (et al) does?

[danb]

When I was working on them I used to just practice on an open string, and work on the mechanics of the picking pattern. That part is fairly mechanical. You'll find that to get it to fall nicely on open strings you can focus on playing the rhythm in absence of the melody.

There are a couple different ways to play them that deal with string crossings etc.. for me it always used to be I could do them but I'd break rhythm in the tune. Keeping a solid beat and having confidence on a tune without ornaments also helps a lot.. the main challenge is just not breaking the beat with them.

A lot of it has to do with the setup of your instrument too. The action and pick thickness need to be all there for you. Reading your list of instruments above, I'd bet the 20 A is the easiest if you put medium to heavy gauge strings on it. My vega c-back has a pretty low action, so I bump the top when I go too fast on the triplets on that one. I've gotten much more picky about set-up over the years. One thing that took me ages when playing vintage pieces was to realize that it was in fact important to have the nuts, bridges, frets etc worked on so it played right

[MikeB]

Man, right from the Horse's Mouth! Thanks, Dan. I figured you'd pipe in here. I agree about that setup. I'm sure it's half the reason I am so in love with the Vega (which I also tend to bump somewhere when I get carried away). So, I'll start hitting open, single strings for awhile, see what happens. Perseverance. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[danb]

Man, right from the Horse's Mouth!
First time I've been called a horse's mouth


whinny

[mikeyes]

In addition to what Dan says, check out the videos at Mandolinsessions - Roger Landes on Triplets (http://www.mandolinsessions.com/feb07/Keyes.html) and #see how Roger Landes does them.

Mostly it is a matter of a loose grip and plenty of practice. #You can do triplets with a 1 mm thick pick (or bigger) and get full tone along with a nice triplet. #You don't have to have a .50 mm pick to make triplets.

[MikeB]

Thanks, Mike...that video on playing triplets shows a little trick with flexing the thumb. That looks to me like what Dan B (the Horse's MOUTH) does. I'm going to see if I can figure that out.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[danb]

Roger's description of triplets is very good. I checked to see if I do that too, I actually roll my thumb a little rather than flexing it, but there is a change in hand shape.

I'll probably have to film this to show it, but my pick grip looks like this (from an old web thing I wrote)

http://www.beimborn.com/stc/sm_pick_grip_closed.jpg


When I triplet, the thumb comes down like my little "hand face" is going "oh!". Very similar to what roger says, slightly different mechanical way of rolling the pick on the strings with a tight hand motion vs wrist for triplet.

Short strokes are the key indeed

[danb]

here's my short picking MPEG video (http://www.beimborn.com/stc/pick_2.mpg). You can see the thumb roll I'm talking about in there on a some of the triplets

Here's a youtube link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XymP9kBd3TY) in case the mpeg doesn't work for most folks

[oggiesnr]

Thanks for that Dan, I'll have to get some serious practice in http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

All the best

Steve

[MikeB]

That video is EXCELLENT, Dan. Not entirely sure I can do what you are doing, but at least I can look at an example and try! I love this site! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[danb]

Check Roger's clip too- his way works great as well, not sure which is easier for you! I watched his a couple times and I also do something with flexing the thumb, just not sure what. The triplets seems to get a bit of a roll in the hand too which you can see in my clip, but I'm not positive exactly what is going on. IN computer terms, I'm sending a macro to my hand that says "upstroke triplet" or "downstroke triplet". It's completely automatic now, muscle memory.

[mikeyes]

There is another triplet technique that uses wrist motion only and is the one favored by Gerry O'Connor and John Carty on the tenor banjo. It consists of a rapid Dum-de-da movement while holding the pick still and not moving the fingers (just the wrist.)

Both techniques work well and often a player will say he or she is doing one thing and then do the other.

Practice is very important in learning triplets and I can't emphasize enough that you have to be relaxed in order to pull them off. If you are not relaxed, they will not work, especially in the context of the music.

Before you use the triplet, you should hear it in your head. The best way to achieve this is to listen to a lot of Irish music. Dan's CDs are particularily good to listen to since I consider him to be one of the triplet masters. Roger Landes is another that I would recommend along with John Carty.

Triplets are not part of the tune (with the exception of musical triplets which are often written into tunes, mostly hornpipes) rather they are part of the lift and rhythm. When you get better at using them (you will eventually have an epiphany) then learn to put them in tastefully and never the same way every time you repeat the tune. Of course, there are times when they just sound right and you do repeat them, but if you are slaves to the triplet, you will sound boring, the same as if you were reading tab. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[MikeB]

Triplets are not part of the tune (with the exception of musical triplets which are often written into tunes, mostly hornpipes) rather they are part of the lift and rhythm. When you get better at using them (you will eventually have an epiphany) then learn to put them in tastefully and never the same way every time you repeat the tune. Of course, there are times when they just sound right and you do repeat them, but if you are slaves to the triplet, you will sound boring, the same as if you were reading tab. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif


This is very helpful, Mike, differentiating triplets that are 'part of the tune' (which I think I play fairly well) and those that are 'not part of the tune' (these are the ones I hear so often and cannot do). Thanks....thanks to all, again!


When you get better at using them (you will eventually have an epiphany)

I can't wait for that!

[kmmando]

Actually, I'm pretty #### at triplets, truth be told, and Dan is the real meister at making millions of wee notes.

I suppose it's because there really isn't a great need for triplets in Scottish music, over and above that which is written in the score, and of course pipe music has an entirely unique vocabulary of ornamentation, which is practically impossible to replicate. It's all about phrasing I suppose, and a lot of that is how you playthe tune with or without and special tricks.

It's fun to try triplets, and I must admit to just chucking them in as and when I remember to do so, often with quite awful results.

Just enjoy playing the tune until it is automatic, and, at that point, you might find the brain starts doing things with your fingers that you weren't aware of, and out pops a triplet! Relax and don't get hung up about it would be my advice, and have another pint while you're at it - that loosens most parts nicely!!!

Glad you liked my one decent set of wee notes anyway!

slainte # Kevin Macleod

[Dagger Gordon]

Kevin is right in pointing out that triplets is less of a Scottish thing, and indeed that Scottish ornamentation (particularly pipe stuff) is a bit different from Irish music.
I guess what I'm really saying is that triplets are essentially an Irish phenomenon, and a tenor banjo one at that.
Incidentally, Kevin and I both play a lot of Scottish dances - indeed playing for dancing is mostly what we both do - so we are very aware of the need for good timing and rhythm in our playing. Frankly, I have heard players to be so obsessed with getting in a lot of triplets that their timing and swing has suffered. Much better to concentrate on the swing aspect, and if you get in lots of triplets as well, so much the better.

It's maybe also worth noting that Irish music is not the only influence on some of us in Scotland. I've got a lot from listening to Norman Blake, both on guitar and mandolin. I've tried to develop a more chordal style of playing from listening to him, and not really worried much about triplets. I tend to try to use them for emphasis.

[MikeB]

So much good advice from my friends and experts! Thanks, guys! Besides these fine posts, I got some PMs basically telling me the same thing: That ornaments are overrated, that they are just that--ornaments, to 'not think too hard about them.' Vague as that sounds, I do get it. I never wanted to lose the soul of the music in trying to 'get it right,' whatever 'right' means. But, it's one thing to choose to play a tune a certain way, and another to have a specifically limited set of skills. I generally don't like to hear tons of those quick triplets in a tune, but I do wish I had the option of tossing one in IF AND WHEN I want to.

So, this thread has been very helpful and educational for me. Dan went especially above and beyond the call with that video, and thanks, Mikeyes, for pointing me to more help from truly fine sources. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[danb]

Good point. You want your hands to do them, but you largely don't want to worry about them.

[fatt-dad]

Learn Harvest Home - that'll help your triplets!

f-d

[Paul Kotapish]

The real secret is hot java--and plenty of it.

[mikeyes]

Dagger,

All those outside influences, the next thing you know Shetland Islanders will be playing swing guitar. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Dagger Gordon]

I think you know the answer to that, Mike!

[jmcgann]

the next thing you know Shetland Islanders will be playing swing guitar.

Ah, Peerie Willie, one of the greatest of the greats in my book!

Hooray for corrupting outside influences! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Dagger Gordon]

Did you hear Peerie Willie Johnston died earlier this year?

For those who don't know who we're talking about, Willie was a wonderful guitarist from the Shetland Isles who applied his own version of swing guitar to Shetland fiddle music. He recorded quite a bit with Aly Bain and Tom Anderson. His influence on guitar accompaniment has been enormous.

[Jeroen]

Isn't Dan actually teaching us sixteenth notes instead of triplets in that MPEG? They possibly are what MikeB asked for help with, but aren't nearly as tough as picked triplets in a bouncy reel or hornpipe.

[danb]

No, those are triplets. There are mostly eigth notes picked in DDU DDU, but there are some ornaments put in there that show the pattern of the pick.

I don't have players-eye viewpoint like that of a faster reel or similar, but the technique is similar

The other thing to remember is that they are rhythmic as opposed to melodic. I am playing slower than normal there, but you don't change the speed of the ornament much.. you don't really want to pick out the individual notes more clearly as you slow, you still want that ryhthm effect instead.

How triplets are notated is an interesting one. I prefer to see gracenotes in terms of accuracy. Some people notate jigs with triplets as having 2 16th notes in them. What's noted out and what you hear in this case are not always exact because of the nature of the music

[oggiesnr]

I've also seen them notated with a "roll" over the first note (can't find the symbol on the keyboard).

Karenn Tweed in her accordion book makes the point that with long rolls and triplets you hear the shape of the group of notes rather than the individual notes.

All the best

Steve

[Dagger Gordon]

Sixteenth notes? Triplets were bad enough to get my old head (and my fingers) around.

Surely when you're blasting away playing somewhere (quite possibly with a few pints inside you) you're not thinking about that kind of stuff are you?

[danb]

Not at all Dagger, it's a very artificial thing to me to try to note stuff out. I used to do more of this stuff when I was involved with transcribing O'Neill's into ABC some years ago, but there is a difference between these things.

Again, it's applying theory after the fact and seeing what describes it rather than trying to conform to classical definitions

[Jeroen]

I was feeding this stuff to my notation program and doing midi
playback to check. Now Dan says that he plays the real triplets I will have a closer look at his example and see if I can dissect his pick movements, which I have understood are non-conventional but functional.

[kmmando]

Jeez, looks like Vivaldi or something!

[danb]

Jeroen: One thing I'd suggest is not to get too bogged down in notation or theory. It seems always to fall short of describing what's really going on. Triplets are like a punctuation mark rather than a sequence of notes, and the main goal is that they add an accent without breaking the rhythm of the tune. You can notate them a variety of different ways, but it's not always going to capture what's going on. My advice would be to focus on the doing of it, and the playing of them. For me it was something that "I just started doing" eventually, it was never really conscious to insert them into a tune.

I'm not sure if that sounds like mumbo-jumbo, but hopefully that's of use to you.

[Jeroen]

Don't worry, Dan. I did not intend to dig into notation or definitions. I only wondered about the difference between , uhm, single and double snap embellishments and the consequences for pick direction solutions. Your post in the jig thread gave me all the info I needed.

Next time I will clarify my examples with

tweedelee, tweedelee, twee diddle ee, twee dippety dee

instead of the eeky TAB.

[ald]

Where do you place your triplets in Harvest Home, fatt-dad?
I just use them in the second part where it goes up a bit higher. Do you use triplets all the way through?

[whistler]

Re Harvest Home, in addition to the A 'pedal' note in the B-part, I presume fatt-dad was referring to the descending run of triplets:

(3efe (3dcB (3ABA (3GFE|

that appears in the 4th bar of both the A and B parts - although it can be replaced with a much simpler

edcB AGFE|.

However, the triplet run in The Harvest Home is, to my ear, a melodic feature - sequence of notes - and hence does not necessarily require the same approach as the 'rhythmic' triplets referred to so far in this thread. That is not to say it could not serve as a good triplet exercise - there are more opportunities for triplets besides the standard runs (and, as an alternative variation, the possibility of not using any triplets at all). But to apply the 'snappy' type of triplets that are used to punctuate the rhythm of jigs and reels, to this tune might perhaps break the flow of the melody. Many hornpipes feature triplets as an integral part of the melody and it is therefore important that each note is given its true value.

[Bren]

This topic interests me too as I think it's related to the pick direction questions I had in the jig thread.

The problem for me isn't so much doing the triplet burst but how you come out of it. Sometimes it's like taking a bend too fast and skidding out of control. I suppose the answer to how you come out of it, as in driving, is how you go into it, which must lead us to pick direction among other things.
A "Scotch snap" can present similar problems.

The triplets were a mystery to me when I first heard the likes of Barney McKenna or Louis MacManus doing it - I never knew they were triplets, I just heard them as little shudders, or bursts of tremolo, indeterminate numbers of notes, and I always liked the effect. Much as I like it, and admire especially in the playing of Dan Beimborn and Gary Peterson (who I read also thinks of them as bursts of tremolo)I don't play them much because I'm useless at it. It may make the solo playing a bit dull but I've never had anyone in a group or session complain because I don't play enough triplets.

I'd still like to be more capable at it though, so these posts are very helpful.

I think triplets in a hornpipe are different as they tend to be part or variation of the melody. It's when you hear them in the straight rhythm of a reel or among the "big" triplets in a jig they have that hair-raising effect.

[fatt-dad]

Here's a tabbed out version from mandozine.com Not quite how I play it but close.

Enjoy!

f-d

[oggiesnr]

If you compare many hornpipes and set dances which are in "O'Neill's" with modern printed versions you'll find that a lot of the triplets have vanished in the newer versions. "The Hunt" and "The Three Sea Captains" are a case in point. I don't know whether it's a case that O'Neill noted everything and so these triplets we would now regard as ornamentation and thus optional or possibly as tempo in sessions have got faster they have been dropped from usage. Or possibly some other explanation...:)

All the best

steve