Crazy prices

[Skanderbeg]

I am sorry, but I just don't get it. I look at the classifieds here on Mandolin Cafe and the auctions on Ebay and I see the outrageous amounts asked for Gilchrist and Nugget mandolins. I haven't played a Nugget but I had the opportunity recently to play a Gilchrist. It was a nice mandolin, not great but nice. So why the crazy prices. I have a Weber Yellowstone and a Breedlove Cascade and frankly they beat the heck out of the Gilchrist sound and appearance wise. So is it just a craze or is there some special intrinsic value to these two makers that I am just not getting?

[8ch(pl)]

It is what the market will bear. If people were not willing to pay this much, the price would fall to what they were willing to pay. I doubt Gilchrist, Dudenbostel, Kremnitzer or other high end mandolin builders would ask less for their work. I know I wouldn't.

[John Flynn]

There have been a bunch of threads on this and there is always a lot of opinions and heated debate, but no definitive answers. The bottom line is that something is worth what people are willing to pay for it, period. People are willing to pay big bucks for some builders' products. Those brands you mentioned seem to have a buzz around them for the following reasons:
> Most experts, and a lot of other people, believe they build great mandolins.
> Some big name players play thier mandolins.
> Those builders have decided to go for a high margin, low volume business model and they have made it work. Some people have a lot of money to spend for mandolins and they will not be satisfied unless they spend it. I was at a workshop with a guy who owned two Gils and another guy who owned three Nuggets. Neither guy played all that well. I am not suggesting you should have to play well to own a great mandolin. It was a just shame that as great as those instruments were, those guys didn't make them sound all that good. Kind of a waste in my book. They might as well have been playing beaters. If they had bought cheaper mandolins and spent the rest of the money on lessons, they would have sounded better, but that is their business.

Another thing to consider: A fiddler/mandolin player I have a lot of respect for got to play a Loar once. He said he was not impressed with it when he played it, but when he heard someone else play it, the instrument sounded incredible. The really great instruments seem to sound better to the audience than they do to the player.

The bottom line is, why worry about this? If you don't want to pay big bucks for a big name mandolin, you don't have to and you don't have to give it a second thought. If other people do want to pay that much, let 'em and don't worry about that either. You have two great mandolins. Enjoy!

[groveland]

I have a Weber Yellowstone and a Breedlove Cascade and frankly they beat the heck out of the Gilchrist sound and appearance wise
I look at it this way: There was a thread just recently comparing Webers and Trinity College/Johnsons, suggesting the particular Johnson blew away the particular Webers. So if Webers are better than Gilchrists, and Johnsons are better than Webers, then Johnsons are better than Gilchrists.

I'd better hold on to my TC - It's bound to fund my retirement!

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[mandomick]

Some folks go fishing and cast and reel. Others throw out a line and troll.

[mythicfish]

The poor girl drinks moonshine likker
And the rich girl drinks Champagne
But my girl drinks old shoe polish
And she gets drunk just the same

Some old jug band tune ...

[jaco]

There are so many variables involved with the market price of instruments. If you look at a 59 Fender Stratocaster from a viewpoint of a slab of wood with some pickups and fairly good playability it's probably worth about $300-400 bucks. When you add in the fact that it was used on so many incredible recordings by artists like Hendrix, SRV, Clapton, etc. things change dramatically. As far as mandolins go, Monroe played an F5 Loar. It just goes on from there.

[David O'Brien]

In order to answer your question, I first have to ask how long you have been playing mandolin(s)? #There is a perspective that comes from years of hearing/holding mandolins that you can't have in just a short period of time, unless you are astute beyond your mandolin years. #That sounds pompous, but it is not meant to. . .

[allenhopkins]

If you think Gilchrists and Nuggets are overpriced, don't buy one. If you think your Weber and Breedlove sound better, keep them and enjoy them.

Subjectively, anything is worth what it's worth to you. Objectively, anything is "worth" what someone will pay for it. Evidently, that "someone" isn't you; you're happy with what you have, and that's good enough.

[foldedpath]

The top two or three classical guitar luthiers are in the $25,000 USD range, last time I checked. Archtop jazz guitars and flattop guitars from the top builders aren't cheap either.

If there are enough players to support it, and enough high-visibility artists using them, then it's a "fair" price... the market determines the value.

Even at those prices, the best new-construction fretted stringed instruments are "bargains" compared to pianos, or violins. And if you do some careful research, you'll find independent luthiers making wonderful instruments at much more affordable prices. I have two Steve Holst guitars -- a classical and a thinline arcthop, and a Harvey Leach baritone, that I think are killer values. And yet... I'd still like to own a Smallman or a Dammann classical guitar one day, if I hit the lottery. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[mandolinplucker]

I went in a bicycle shop to get a new mountain bike. I asked the salesman, "what is the difference in this $300 bike and that $1000 bike? He said " ride them both and if you can't tell the difference, you would be foolish to buy the expensive one." I couldn't ride any better on one than the other so I had $700 for other things. With mandolins- I could make a dude or Gil, sound like an Eastman or Kentucky. If I had the skill and talent to make a living with a mandolin, and a quality mandolin would make a difference in my sound and playing, then it would be worth the cost.

[JeffD]

The poor girl drinks moonshine likker
And the rich girl drinks Champagne
But my girl drinks old shoe polish
And she gets drunk just the same

Some old jug band tune ...
Now that is a tune!

[Michael Lewis]

dobnc, you have clearly stated the point. I have known this for many years but had to use many more words to get the idea across. Thanks

[David Hanson]

Some dealers, not the builders are pushing it a bit, there has been a 1926 Gibson Fern on eBay for a long time, they are asking $95K or in UK pounds £47K this is enough to buy a house where I live. I think this will be for sale for a long time yet.

Logically if you are making instruments for a living, you need to get the best price you can.

Dave H

[pjlama]

I wrote a quick thread about my new iPhone and made a statement which I believe applies here;

If you get it, get it, if you don't, don't.

I may need to add this to my closing.

[EdSherry]

I'm an economist by profession. #Whether the "better" sound is worth the price difference TO YOU is a subjective consideration. #Many beginning/intermediate players can't hear much of a difference between "good" mandolins and "great" ones, and if YOU can't hear the difference,

But the fact that Gils/Nuggets/etc. sell (often with a multi-year waiting list) for the prices they do clearly indicates that SOMEONE is willing to pay top dollar for those instuments. #

If you're not, that's fine; but that's not a basis for questioning the fact that "supply and demand," coupled with the fact that customers clearly ARE willing to pay the prices being asked, means that those prices ARE "reasonable" in a market sense -- i.e., that they are within the range that a willing buyer and a willing seller would agree to.

Many years ago (1984) I was fortunate to wander into Mandolin Brothers (Staten Island), and I bought one of the first Flatiron F-5s. #I bought better than I knew at the time; I played it against many instruments in the shop at the time (including a couple of Loars), and it just "spoke" to me. #I have been told by many players whose ears I respect that my mando is one of the finest mandolins they have ever heard.

Are Gils and Nuggets "worth" the price premium? #That's up to the individual buyer and his/her "willingness to pay." #But I've played some incredible-sounding Gils and Nuggets that, if I didn't already have my Flatiron, I would be seriously tempted to purchase.

[KNP String Band Mando]

Mystic Fish...More Verses

Well the rich gal she drives in an automobile
The poor gal she does it just the same
but my gals got her own private seat in the back of the sheriffs car
and she gets around just the same

Well the rich gal she'll kiss ya, yes she'll kiss ya on the cheek
the poor gal she'd love to do the same
but may gals got a rusty razor, and she'll run ya all over this town
and your gettin kissed just the same


As for the thread, i belived the prices are so high because of the vast amount of knowlage that these elite luthiers have about voicing and construction, and finishes. Im not sure if you guys have tried to shape and tune tone bars, but its a challange. Also I look at Gils, and Dudes, and Nugs as a timeless investment that will be looked at with great esteam in years to come. I for one do not have the money for these, but would love to own a Dude or Nug someday. For now ill keep saving for my "middle of the road" Collings MF-5V. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[KNP String Band Mando]

Just remembered one more verse...a variation

Well the rich gal shes drinkin straight whiskey
And the poor gal is drinkin just the same
but my gal drinks cold Pabst Blue Ribbon from a can
and she gets real twisted just the same

[joncl]

>With mandolins- I could make a dude or Gil, sound like an Eastman or Kentucky. If I had the skill and talent to make a >living with a mandolin, and a quality mandolin would make a difference in my sound and playing, then it would be worth
>the cost.

Yeah, and Marty Stuart, Ricky Skaggs, Chris Thile and Tim O'Brien could possibly make my JBovier sound like a Nugget.

The guy who fixes my Dodge has about $50,000 worth of hand tools. He needs those hand tools to do his job and he only buys top quality tools because he really can tell the difference.

Professional musicians are the same way with their tools. They get the best because they can tell the difference.

For most people a "hardware-store" mandolin is all they would ever need. Some people can afford better so that's what they buy, even though they don't need it.

[Dave Cohen]

What I really wanna know is how this thread got started in the 'Builders/Repair' section, and how it managed to stay here. I would really be pleased to see the moderator(s) move things like this to a more appropriate section.

[Narayan Kersak]

I have a Weber Yellowstone and a Breedlove Cascade and frankly they beat the heck out of the Gilchrist sound and appearance wise.
I have learned that beauty and sound are really in the eyes of the beholder. I was at a music store in NC once and they had a few nice mandolins, gibson, eastman, some no name brand, and Big Buddy. I was playing and a guy came up to me and asked me to play a few for comparison so he could hear the difference. He wanted to purchase one. So I played them, and the one he wanted (which he had previously told me) was the one he agreed sounded hands down better, when from my perspective it actually sounded like the crappiest of them all ( I thought it sounded thin and tinny and not very loud). And he said, "My this one just sings, the others sound thin and tinny and not very loud." (I lauged inside.) Of course the one I thought sounded best was actually the Big Muddy. Guess what kind of mandolin I play? A flat top. Everyone is called to different things it seems, and often their perceptions turn another persons trash in gold right?

[MikeEdgerton]

If you think Gilchrists and Nuggets are overpriced, don't buy one. If you think your Weber and Breedlove sound better, keep them and enjoy them.
There you go, no better answer can be given to the question.

[12 fret]

I think the economics of value work out like this for almost any product. If you compare the top model ( Loar, Gil etc) to the lowest end model (Rogue?) the difference is obvious. As you move up from the low end, you can close the gap pretty rapidly per $100 spent until you get to the point where you are at about 90% of the top model. Its that last 5-10% that gets expensive since thats where it changes from craft to art.

[Kevin Briggs]

Here's another version:

Well the rich gal shes drinkin straight whiskey
And the poor gal is drinkin just the same
But my gal drinks Colt 45 just like Billy Dee
And she gets real twisted just the same

[Kevin Briggs]

I've recently run into only one dilemma with my fabulous Weber Fern. It's custom with a red spruce top and specific neck profile we worked on. I kind of feel outclassed by it, and am having a hard time coming to grips with owning it. It's different than buyer's remorse, I think, because I absolutely love it. It's just that it is so nice and so much better than anything I've personally played and heard that I'm feeling "unworthy." I'm just a hack who stumbles over some nice sounding runs every once and a while, and the Fern is top shelf, unquestionably. It's one of those instruments that sounds "unbelievable." I mean, a chop, strum, single note, etc. sound better than I can imagine. I don't know what that quality is, but my Fern certainly has it.

The asking price for the Fern is a joke compared to what that instrument is able to do, comparatively speaking. If Weber went by what the market dictates for top shelf instruments, it would be somewhere near three times as expensive. I only hope I can do it justice over the years.

[Golman8]

Rich gal wears sweet perfume
pore gal wears the same
My gal don't wear no perfume atall,
but you can smell her just the same.

[David O'Brien]

thanks Michael for your kind words. #At Galax this week, a friend brought his '96 Gilchrist to the party because he didn't want to risk tarnishing his '04 Duff, his is number 97, my '04 Duff is number 98; and his buddy brought his '04 Duff, number 93. #We all love the sound and feel and look of our Duff's. #He told me that at the asking price of $3500, Paul Duff wasn't selling many mandolins. #Paul knows he makes a great mandolin, and he is competing with a lot of other luthiers out there; so what did Paul do? #He raised his prices, and low and behold, he says, orders went up. #Some folks, he pondered, didn't think the mandolins were going to be "good enough" since they were only $3500 in 2004. He didn't really want to make his mandolins out of reach to some players, but he wanted a market. #I have heard other instances of higher prices actually spirring demand. #Remember the story of the Loar mandola in North Carolina? #It was offered at $35,000; no takers. #The store RAISED the price to $39,000, and it sold in two weeks or so.

That last 5 - 10% is also the part most people don't notice.

[Golman8]

For years now. when I have to relist an item I have for sale, I raise the price, works every time! G.B.

[Ivan Kelsall]

I'm with Kevin on this. We both own Weber "Fern" Mandolins that we feel are utterly superb well beyond their pricing range.The quality of my instrument just makes me want to play it more,this in turn makes me a better player,& bit by bit i'm learning a lot.
How the sound quality of any specific instrument appeals to people is extremely subjective. In it's later years i think that Bill Monroe's revered Loar sounded quite poor. If you've ever watched his tuition videos,at one point he plays another great Gibson Mandolin belonging to either John Hartford or Ralph Rinzler,i'm not quite sure,but it was a whole lot better sounding than his own. I think that even Bill Monroe
recognised that fact,it was just that the one specific Mandolin & himself were part of the whole.
Regarding the high prices asked for Gilchrist & Dudenbostal etc.instruments,with all due respect to their makers who i hold in true esteem,indeed as i do to any craftsman who can make such glorious instruments,i do think the prices are high. I'm well aware of the costs involved in making such Mandolins,the materials,the tooling,the work itself. But if companies such as Weber & others are producing instruments of the quality that they are doing,using high quality materials,tooling & superb craftsmanship,
also being a bigger comapany they have higher overheads,then how do they manage to keep their prices so reasonable for such superb instruments ?.
I know that 'market forces' comes into play here & that makers will ask what they think (or know ) they can get,but there has to be a limit. If the same materials were given to Messrs.Gilchrist,Dudenbostel & Weber & the same instrument specification was given to each, then how much would each charge for their respective instruments,
given that they should be almost identical in build quality (not neccessarily
in tone)?. What would enable a higher price to be charged by one maker over another,or would the prices be the same ?. Is there some almost imperceptible difference in the materials used by one or another maker that dictates the high cost ?.
Let me make it quite clear,i have no objection re.the high cost of any item,provided one can see clearly that the cost is appropriate for the quality of that item.
The law of 'diminishing returns' also applies here. For the smallest amount of improvement,one pays a higher price,which increases as the improvements become more refined.
I also do understand that with Mandolins as in all things,if outstanding musicians play a particular maker's instruments,then those instruments almost by default become
a 'superior' instrument & command a higher price than other 'lesser' makes. But many times this is only a 'perception',not a 'reality'. How many of you have bought a highly
rated product only to find it not as good as the 'lesser' one that you had before ?. I certainly have.
To finish this ramble,all these things are very subjective. The top makers do indeed produce magnificent instruments & if i had the cash,i'd be visiting a few of them,just to satisfy my own curiosity,
Saska

[David Hanson]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder................get it out with Optrex.

Dave H

[PseudoCelt]

When Steve Gilchrist was Guest of the Week at Mandozine, he was asked a question about the market values of his instruments. Here's what he said:

"... For my work, I see it as two markets at work. The fixed market of prices that I committed to years ago when I took the orders, and the open resale market that has nothing to do with me and is out of my control. It is a little disconcerting however that instruments that I deliver can be resold the next day for 3-4 times what I'm receiving, but that's the way of the market and I'm not complaining..."

So the used price went way up long before Gilchrist himself was in a position to raise the price of his new mandolins. Presumably, he later adjusted his prices to reflect their actual market value.

The whole CGOW Q&A can be read here (http://www.mandozine.com/resources/CGOW/gilchrist.php)

Patrick

If used Gilchrists sell for over $20,000 he'd be kind of dumb to sell new ones for less.

I asked a maker how much his mandos go for, he said the F-models start at $10,000 but he's thinking about raising that. I asked what his backlog is, he said 2 1/2 years. Obviously he can sell all he can make, why should he give them away?

[MikeEdgerton]

Some old jug band tune ...
Charmin' Betsy and a dozen variants.

[John Flynn]

If Weber went by what the market dictates for top shelf instruments, it would be somewhere near three times as expensive.
NOTE: This is not Weber bashing! The following applies to similar statements about any instrument. Respectfully, that statement is just ridiculous. Macro Econ 101: (which I used to teach at the college level) All instruments sell for what the market dictates. Period. Any statement to the contrary indicates a misunderstanding of what the term "market" means. Micro Econ 101: Also, all brands eventually settle out to an intersection of what the market dictates and the company's business model. Weber has been in business for a while, so they are selling for what they are worth, no more, no less. Just try selling one for three times the going price and then come back and tell me I'm wrong.

[Don Christy]

Just try selling one for three times the going price and then come back and tell me I'm wrong.
How about provenance considerations?

Let's say I have a Weber Sweet Pea that Paul McCartney played on a recent summit trip to the top of Mt. Everest. I suspect I could sell it for a little premium. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Seriously though, I started this reply completely tongue in cheek. But now I wonder how much of a "market" there really is for the big names (Gils, etc). The supply side isn't very flexible so the prod numbers are so low that I wonder if much of the price isn't actually driven by provenance. Or maybe provenance is the wrong name; maybe sponsorship. I suspect the price of any small builder that currently sells for $4000 would go up significantly (and almost overnight) if Thile or Compton or Steffey started playing them. This would be less true for a larger manufacturer where there really is a flexible supply.
Don

[salleyann]

There's no getting around it, supply and demand dictate market prices. Small supply,large demand equal high prices and vice versa.

[Tim]

Supply and demand? #What about Giffen Goods? #In the collectable market does low supply lead to high demand (the basic supply/demand model assumes they are independent)?

That was partly in jest but could the anecdote about the Duff be an example of a Giffen good? #Most of the theoretical explanations of those that I've read (and I only casually read about these things, I'm not a professional) suggest that there might be a class of goods where the general public can't discern quality so they use price as a proxy for quality (wine and perfume are two cited examples) resulting in increased price causing increased demand. #Perhaps that's what's happening with the Duff.

[mythicfish]

Despite the learned and often lengthy explanations of the experts ... When YOU pay 5 figures for a mandolin it's" a lot of money"; but when I pay that price (theoretically) it's "worth every penny".

Curt

For a whole bunch of reasons, mandolins cannot be Giffen Goods. The could very definately be Veblen Goods.

[Don Christy]

Well this turned into an interesting thread (for me at least). I don't remember much from my econ classes and certainly didn't recall anything about Giffen and Veblen goods. A little wiki research led to some interesting reading. Thanks!
Don

[MandoPirate]

buying "THE" mandolin for cheap is alot like getting to know your all time favorite musician before they are famous .... it all about the timing. Now if you figure out who the next best Mandolin makers are before they get famous and raise their prices .. let me know please!

MP

[salleyann]

[QUOTE]Supply and demand? What about Giffen Goods? In the collectable market does low supply lead to high demand (the basic supply/demand model assumes they are independent)?

No matter what causes the increase in demand, whether inflated price or preceived greater value or "Jonesing", facts are facts, and "supply and demand" is a fact.

[mythicfish]

"facts are facts, and "supply and demand" is a fact."

Just don't be disappointed when they fail to #explain or prove anything.

Curt

[Spruce]

I love this movie!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_yDWQsrajA)

[Tim]

[QUOTE= ]No matter what causes the increase in demand, whether inflated price or preceived greater value or "Jonesing", facts are facts, and "supply and demand" is a fact.
I'm not denying supply and demand. #It is just a over simplification to the point of fitting that category of stating the obvious as if it were profound. #

Nothing false and no real information. I might be jumping to a false conclusion here but I think most people that raise this issue really want to understand why supply and demand are changing (they just don't ask it that way).

[Kevin Briggs]

NOTE: This is not Weber bashing! The following applies to similar statements about any instrument. Respectfully, that statement is just ridiculous. Macro Econ 101: (which I used to teach at the college level) All instruments sell for what the market dictates.
As always, Johnny, you make a solid point. Your perspective always adds good angles on issues, and you prod the heck out of me to think more deeply about what I write. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I'm sure STE is selling their mandolins at the market they've settled into over the years. I was just saying that STE might have carved it out differently from the beginning, and established a presence in the $15,000+ range, and their top models are good enough to warrant that, judging by quality alone.

In the beginning, when STE first got started in the late 1990s, the mandolin market was so much different. Back then, $5,000+ for the Weber Fern was probably a pretty spicey meatball! They've since raised the retail on their mandolins, like two times since then, but are now vastly less expensive than mandolins of similar quality. Obviously, I'm just an armchair economist (is that the right word?).

You made a good point though, Johhny, in that my definition of "market" had something to do with the quality of an instrument, and less to do with what "market" probably means.

[12 fret]

What I think some of you guys are leaving out of the equation is scale. I think I'd rather have Weber's bottom line than Gilchrist's. Weber established pricing based on achieving the widest market penetration at the quality level they were prepared to provide. When you look at pricing from a Gilchrist or any of the top luthiers, remember that demand can shrink as well as expand. Go back over a 10 or 15 year period and see who the "hot" builders were and see how many are still around. A store manager at a Wal-Mart probably makes more money on an annual basis than 98% of the customer builders.

[Joe Parker]

Who cares about any of this? Now skeedaddle-all of you-go play your mandolins whatever they cost!! I mean it! Don't make me have to keep you after class. Play what you like,it's ok,really! Seriously,folks;how many times does this subject have be brought up??

JPP


"a manager at WalMart"?? Where did that come from?

[John Flynn]

Who cares about any of this? Now skeedaddle-all of you-go play your mandolins whatever they cost!! I mean it! Don't make me have to keep you after class. Play what you like,it's ok,really! Seriously,folks;how many times does this subject have be brought up??
Why do you care? If you don't like the subject, skip these threads. Nobody forces you to read them. I happen to be very interested in economics, especially as it applies to the mandolin market and I have learned some things here I have not learned on other similar threads. Some other people seem to be interested also. So bug off. I think the person who is really wasting thier time on this thread is you, playing self-appointed "Junior Hall Monitor" and scolding us about being here.

Back to economics: There is no question the "Veblen Good" effect happens with high end mandolins. Almost every market, except for "pure, theoretical markets" that don't actually exist, have something other than linear supply and demand curves. I do think that the high-end builders have been able to take advantage of getting a "buzz" going about thier products that allows them to price way beyond practical value.

Even though the Veblen effect is in play, that does not mean that other builders can immediately take advantage it. Weber, for instance, could not get away with just tripling prices without there being something else in the mix. Say they could get a few big name players to endorse them and play Webers as thier regular instruments, then they could start creeping the prices up and get away with it.

I think it is interesting that in blind taste testings and the big names have not always been clear winners. It would be interesting to do an "economic taste test." It would never happen of course, but the idea would be to have all the top builders build similar models with no headstock logos, labels or other identifying visual characteristics. Have an event where high-end buyers get to try out each instrument and bid on thier favorites. My guess is that the prices would not go nearly as high as the market currently bears and that the builders who normally charge the most would not necessarily get the high bids.

[12 fret]

[QUOTE] I think it is interesting that in blind taste testings and the big names have not always been clear winners

Not surprising though. Tone is a purely subjective quality. If your judging panel were to consist of a bluegrass player, a celtic player, an old time player, and a classical player, you would no doubt get 4 different selections as "the best" Also, as you consider the economics of these things take into account that cost of ownership of a Gil is probably less than a Weber. Keep both for 5 years, sell it, and you probably get back 80% of your Weber investment and you probably make a few thou profit on the Gil.

[John Flynn]

12 fret:

You make a really good point about the resale value. It seems to indicate there are at least three different distinct markets we are talking about here, if not more. There is a pure collectors'/investors' market, a player/investors' market and a pure players' market. For instance, I know people who own a bunch of high-end Martin guitars who don't play that well and rarely play their instruments. Status of owndership, financial worth and re-sale are everything to them.

Then there are people who play a lot, but who also buy/sell/trade all the time. Financial value is important, but playability and tone are equally important. I am in what I would call the "buy and hold" or "pure players" market. I can't bear to sell an instrument once I have bonded with it, so the re-sale means little or nothing to me. Tone and playability are everything. My buying thrill is not getting the big name, but getting the instrument that, to me, sounds and plays like a big name, but costs a lot less.

Each of those different markets will have a different supply/demand curve, so the answer to the OP will be different depending on what group someone is in.

[Joe Parker]

I've got a varnish Veblen F-5 on order.I can't wait to get it so I can sell it and make a killing off it.

JPP

[12 fret]

[QUOTE] I know people who own a bunch of high-end Martin guitars who don't play that well

I know exactly the kind of jerks you're talking about.....Uh, scratch that you're talking about me. I buy em because I like the way the sound, play, look, and feel. Heck, I even love the way my 000-28 smells whenI open the case. I say why deny yourself when the market is such that they really don't cost you anything if you keep them and play the stink out of them 3-5 years

[cooper4205]

who says you have to be good to buy an expensive instrument? you just have to want it and have the money.

[MikeEdgerton]

who says you have to be good to buy an expensive instrument? you just have to want it and have the money.
Amen.

If the only people that could buy expensive instruments were people that could play them well there wouldn't be a CF Martin Company, a Gibson Company, a Sim Daley, etc. etc.

Do you long for one of those minty fresh Loars that came out from under a bed in pristine condition? Chances are it was purchased for or by someone that couldn't play the damn thing.

There isn't any reason why someone that can afford a decent mandolin shouldn't just buy it if they want it. I can go to just about any large public jam and point out a few dozen people that have nice instruments that don't play that well. God bless them all for having the sense to buy decent instruments. They're doing all of us a favor by supporting the companies and the individual builders that build mandolins.

[Joe Parker]

Yeah,now we're talking real economics! If you can afford it and you want it, then I say get it! That's what I do.Man,I bet my Veblen has appreciated 20% since this thread started. I love this stuff. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

JPP

[mandodan1960]

It's been my experience with cars and boats that normally depreciate that if you don't really want to spend money buy the most expensive model. (huh) One that is rare or so unique that it will appreciate. i.e classic car buy a Shelby or California Special. Boat, get an immaculate "miami vice" Scarab that people dreamed of having when they didn't have any money. They have it now an that's what they want. It may not appreciate but it won't drop like a rock like a "new" toy dealers are getting ready to sell thousands of. Of course it has to be something that you desire and want to own and enjoy as well. The same with mandos if you have a great deal of money then it may only cost in most cases what that money may have earned had it been invested. Hey, this is my hobby and I made a lot of money so I deserve it mentality. My point is that there is more price stability in the high end and you may make a few bucks. The low/mid range you don't get the quality and stand a greater chance of coming up short. Just my thoughts. Read in a investment book one time that rule number one is don't lose any money. All lost money is a 100% loss and that is very hard to make up. Hard to do I know but it make sense.
Mandodan1960

[allenhopkins]

Man,I bet my Veblen has appreciated 20% since this thread started. I love this stuff.
Yeah, but they're starting to make Veblens in China. I predict the bottom's going to fall out of the market.

[Big Joe]

If you don't think the upper spectrum mandolins are a good deal, then don't buy one. If you do think they are worth it and want one bad enough you will find a way to get one. Our activities will support our priorities. Many who have not developed an ear for the difference will not think the extra is worth it. On the other hand, for those who can it is quite the difference.

When I was younger I drove an old beat up Plymouth with tons of rust. If the rust had ever fallen off, the car would have fallen apart. It would not always start that easy, used a lot of gas and oil(but was a good mosquito fogger http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif ). Still, that car got me back and forth for a good while. It did the job I needed it to.

I did develop some discernment over time and now have a very nice upper end Suburban with every option that was available. The brake and gas pedals even adjust with the touch of a button on the door. It has its own GPS navigation system, reclining rear buckets, seperate heating and air conditioning systems for front/back and even zones for the front. The seats are heated, it has a power sunroof, XM radio, CD player, DVD player, rear radio, remote controls, wireless headphones for the DVD or rear radio. It has heated seats, 10 way power seats plus power lumbar supports. In other words, this partial list shows it is a much higher end car than the old 70's Plymouth I used to have. It still only gets me from point A to point B. It was worth the difference to me. I don't have any intention of driving clunkers anymore and I have no intention of playing lower or mid range mandolins any more either. I CAN tell the difference and it is worth the difference to me.

You are welcome to chose what you wish. You may be very happy with the Plymouth. It will still get you there, just maybe not quite in the same condition when you arrive. Thank you.

[homeslice]

Try saying Veblen 5 times......really fast! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

I'm four months into playing mandolin. I discover little tone variations almost hourly now. A month ago I wouldnt have been able to tell a lot of mandolins apart. If all of this "discerning" continues at the current pace, a one billion dollar mandolin might start making sense. Then again, I've got a lot more discovering to do with the one I have now.

[Jason Holmes]

I hear you, homeslice. The more you know, the more you almost wish you didn't know.

As MAS has inevitably struck me, and as a fine instrument made by someone else is out of my (wife's) price range at the moment, I think I'm on the road to try my hand at building my next instrument(s) this winter. Wish me luck.

[Ivan Kelsall]

As a matter of pure conjecture,what do you think that the reaction would be if a top notch Mandolin player such as Adam Steffey (insert your own favourite here),began playing say,a Weber or an Eastman & declared it to be ''the best Mandolin i've ever played '' ?.Do you think that the prices of those instruments would double or treble in price ?.
Big Joe,as usual, makes a good point " if you don't think that the upper eschelon Mandolins are a good deal, then don't buy one ". That's ok as far as it goes,but what would make a prospective buyer perceive it to be a good deal ?. Is it the construction,
the materials,the tone or ''THE NAME'' on the headstock ?. I'd bet if someone were to
take a top maker's Mandolin & put the name of a lower brand on it,it wouldn't get much of a look in. I'm not saying here that i'm any better than anyone else in this. I'm all too aware of my own prejudices,that's why i take time to overcome them by trying personally, to be more open minded. As Big Joe will testify,Gibson & other top brands such as Fender,Gretsch et al have sold thousands of instruments because of the name on the headstock (i am not inferring that they weren't good instruments as well) but in instruments, the 'designer label' mentallity is also present.
I'd bet that there are a lot of musicians with 'top name' instruments of all sorts who know that their particular instrument doesn't really cut it,but who are inclined to stick with it because of the kudos the name brings - '' he's playing a Gibson,Fender etc. he must be good''. That mentallity is there, we all know it & we know that people will pay ridiculous prices to be 'one up' on others. There is a musical 'one-upmanship' culture & this helps to maintain prices at a ridiculously high level.
As usual,these are my personal thoughts & in no way are my comments to be taken as criticism of any maker's instruments top end or otherwise. If i were fortunate enough to have the chance to play a Gil. or a Dude.etc.,then maybe my comments would be slightly different,but i still stick to my 'designer label' point,
Saska

[Lefty&French]

I love this movie!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_yDWQsrajA)
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Best answer, I guess.

I'm sorry for bringing up the Veblen Goods subject. I must have missed the part in the forum rules that said "No subjects above third-grade level."

[allenhopkins]

I'm sorry for bringing up the Veblen Goods subject. I must have missed the part in the forum rules that said "No subjects above third-grade level."
Don't apologize -- we love it! I really dig the way this thread has developed. The economics of "branding" and what for want of a better term, could be called "conspicuous consumption," surely do have a place in our discussion.

So let's hear a vociferous chant: "THOR-stein! THOR-stein!..."

[homeslice]

I'm sorry for bringing up the Veblen Goods subject. I must have missed the part in the forum rules that said "No subjects above third-grade level."
I apologize for poking fun at that. Im also glad that you brought it up as I learned something new when I looked up what it means. I guess I'm a little immature and while it may be a funny sounding word, I didnt intend on your post being devalued. It actually puts a sensible perspective on this subject, and I think that's what most folks are looking for here.

[JeffD]

God bless them all for having the sense to buy decent instruments. They're doing all of us a favor by supporting the companies and the individual builders that build mandolins.
And somebody has to restock the secondary market!

[Tim]

For a whole bunch of reasons, mandolins cannot be Giffen Goods. The could very definately be Veblen Goods.
Consider this scenario: #A punk mandolin band smashes a mandolin at the end of every show. They use an Eastman for weekday shows but use a Weber for weekend shows. #Eastman raises their prices so they can no longer afford the Weber to smash and buy additional Eastman mandolins.

In that situation isn't the Eastman a Giffen Good? # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif #

Okay, its contrived! #Thanks for the clarification on Veblen versus Giffen.

[Larry Simonson]

I find it a bit amazing that so much more attention is focussed on the light emitted from peg head (or inside label) than from the waves emitted from the played instrument.

[Tim]

Mandolin Cafe Message Board has a total of 427,123 posts (393,536 replies to 33,587 Topics)

Sort those topics and count the messages before you are "amazed" by the fact you assert.

Tim, the reason your scenario doesn't work is the option to simply stop smashing mandolins.

Giffen Goods is one of those theories that whenever someone tries to find a real-world example someone else finds the reason it isn't.

[John Flynn]

Tim, the reason your scenario doesn't work is the option to simply stop smashing mandolins.
Well, I am not for smashing instruments, period, but to look at the hypothetical scenario from a purely economic perspective, if smashing mandolins is an expected part of this hypothetical band's act and they might lose fans by not doing it, then they really don't have the option to stop smashing mandolins. The mandolins to be smashed are consumable goods that are necessary to thier business. So Eastman raising prices could have an effect. My guess is that what would really happen is that they would find even cheaper mandolins to smash, like Rovers or Johnsons.

[Joe Parker]

I'm sorry for bringing up the Veblen Goods subject. I must have missed the part in the forum rules that said "No subjects above third-grade level."

Neptune,don't apologize for any thing(except maybe your lack of a sense of humor),I'm glad you brought an educated perspective to this subject and I,for one,am relieved to finally know which mando/economic category I belong to.Lighten up,we're just playing around.As the old saying goes-"sometimes you have to take the Veblen Good with the bad."

JPP-third grade Gilchrist owner
Eight year olds are a tough crowd but we like to have our fun.

[David Newton]

Instead of commenting on the subject of the thread, I thought I'd comment on the thread itself. The originator of the thread has not been seen since post 1, so I assume he's a troll. I used to think trolls were a bad thing, but they do start invigorating threads, after all, so maybe I change my mind.

Giffen Goods are a fun subject.

Veblen Goods can give the owner importance he would not otherwise deserve.

[MikeEdgerton]

The originator of the thread has not been seen since post 1
He only had 14 posts at the time he started this. Give him a few months to come back and actually read all of the answers. He might just be shy. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Tim]

It seems to me that the Giffen and Veblen, to the extent they exist, are only applicable in a subset of a larger market. #Veblen seems to be very useful in some segment of the mandolin market. #With Giffen a subset of the potential pool will just leave the market, but the ones that remain in the market and adjust their behavior are the ones of interest to economic study.

Having read a lot of papers that try to come up with a model to explain the behavior of a subset of a population, I tend to believe that some people just make random decisions.

[Dale Ludewig]

IMHO, this entire subject is complete nonsense. Builders charge what they need to/ can get away with/ what the market will bear, etc. People need to understand that every different builder is doing so under different conditions. Is this some amazing concept? Builders charge what they need to. I know of no builder who is getting rich No builder will charge more than what the market will bear and the players out there will decide if the the product is worth the price, for whatever reason. I don't think any builders are taking advantage of the "market". They're probably the last ones to do any such thing. IHMO.

[Keith Miller]

[QUOTEare asking $95K or in UK pounds £47K this is enough to buy a house where I live]
would not even buy a wee garage in Edinburgh I'm afraid http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[MikeEdgerton]

I don't think any builders are taking advantage of the "market".
Without re-reading all the posts I don't think anyone has implied that other than maybe the first poster.

[uncle ken]

I try to play everything out there and I think you can get "the sound" for under 10k. There are builders and factories doing it right now. It helps to be a fanatic and play hundreds of instruments including vintage and new to get a perspective on "the sound". If all you care about is tone and playability you don't need to spend a fortune. Sure a $200,000 vintage instrument might sound a little better but probably not $190,000 worth. If you're a collector of antiquities, that's another story.

[Big Joe]

Uncle Ken...If it sounds good enough to you then it is not worth the difference. However, some can tell the difference and what you think of as a slight difference is all the difference in the world to someone else. While you can state your preferences with your situation at this moment, not everyone is in the same situation you are. If I could find a mandolin for under 10K to match the ones I have, I certainly would grab them. That "slight" difference not worth the extra $ to you may well be worth it to others. It is important not to place our limits on others when it comes to mandolins or guitars or http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Again, if what you have sounds good enough, enjoy it and love it. Don't spend any more money. However, if you have not found your mandolin nirvana, you will likely keep looking. Some of us have found that place and we are very happy. If you like the upper end mandos and they spark your fire, you may well find yourself finding a way to purchase what you never thought possible. Our priorities are supported by our activities. If we really want an expensive mandolin we will find a way. If we don't, then we don't have to worry about it.

[cooper4205]

if uncle ken still has his Three Couch Potatoes (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=15;t=19687;st=350), I'd be willing to bet he's reached mandolin nirvana! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[uncle ken]

I added one more potato earlier this year. I play four vintage Gibsons from the 1920s daily and am very familiar with the vintage Gibson sound and love it. I've played many Loars over the past 30 years as well. I still stand by statement though about being able to get "the tone" or at least close enough for under 10k. I'm amazed at what's available now compared to when I first started playing some 35 years ago.

[Dagger Gordon]

If you're a serious player you should have a good - indeed very good instrument. That is beyond dispute.

But whether it has to be the absolute best money can buy is another matter.
There comes a point where the buck has to stop with you and you can no longer blame the instrument for any shortcomings you think it might have. Then it's time to do a bit of practise!

Also, I know people travel around to play concerts with ridiculously expensive instruments but there is a risk of them getting damaged and there's quite a lot to be said for making do with 'second' best.

There comes a point that it isn't a question of the best mandolin money can buy, it is the best mandolin for a particular individual. Practice is not a substitute for the right mandolin. Some folks find the right mandolin and stop looking. Some haven't found it yet.

How many hours does it take you to build a perfect F-5 mandolin? How much do you make per hour, after taxes and expenses?

[Spruce]

" I'm amazed at what's available now compared to when I first started playing some 35 years ago. "

Ain't that the truth....

[Jim MacDaniel]

I am sorry, but I just don't get it. I look at the classifieds here on Mandolin Cafe and the auctions on Ebay and I see the outrageous amounts asked for Gilchrist and Nugget mandolins. I haven't played a Nugget but I had the opportunity recently to play a Gilchrist. It was a nice mandolin, not great but nice. So why the crazy prices. I have a Weber Yellowstone and a Breedlove Cascade and frankly they beat the heck out of the Gilchrist sound and appearance wise. So is it just a craze or is there some special intrinsic value to these two makers that I am just not getting?
...

[Skanderbeg]

I was quite surprised by the reaction to my initial posting. I was told to "get a life" by one brilliant individual. It was suggested that I probably hadn't played enough mandolins to know a good one when I heard it. There was esoteric discussions regarding market forces and it was also suggested that I was hiding since I hadn't responded to the many comments.

Frankly, I did not reply since I found with one exception the comments non-responsive to my inquiry. Maybe I didn't articulate the question clearly. So let me try again. There are hundreds of luthiers copying the F-5 design. Therefore there is nothing special in the design of this particular model. While there may be variations in the frills and bracing the instruments made by the major manufactures and individual luthiers are all quality instruments (not refering to imports). So what is special about the Gilchrist and Nugget. Are the geared pegs 24 carat gold. Is the wood the last of the Ecuadorian rain forest left on earth. In other words is there something special that Gilchrist and Nugget incorporate in their mandolins that can't be duplicated that make them unique, because if it is just the market forces at work, then I suspect it is hype and one ups-manship that drives the prices so high.

By the way in answer to the question I have been playing and collecting mandolins since 1980 and owned at least 25 great mandolins for which I have paid large sums in some cases, but that does not mean I can't question the basis for extreme prices out of proportion to the intrinsic value of the instrument. (Yeh Yeh Yeh. I know market forces, whatever the market dictates, trolling doesn't mean actual sales and all the rest of the excuses for these ridiculous prices.

[Big Joe]

I think the question has been adequately answered. They can get more for their product because they are worth more. Nothing simpler than that. If they weren't worth that they could not get that. There are a number of issues. Quality, rarity, reputation, history, tone, playability, set up, etc.

While it would be easy to say all F5's are the same, they certainly are not. They have different graduations, dimensions, carvings, frills, tone, playability. It is a matter of structural and sonic issues. If you can find one in a lower price range that suits you, then go for it. If that makes you happy and suits your needs and ears then that is what is best for you. There are not that many higher end mandos anyway so not everyone can have one. If you don't think there is a difference large enough to cause you to dig deeper in the pocket, then you are a blessed man. Some need the extra and are willing to pay for it. It is worth it to them.

Why buy a cadillac if a horse will get you from point A to point B? For the very same reasons one buys a higher end mandolin rather than a good lesser expensive one. They both get you there, but the ride is a LOT different in many cases!

[sgarrity]

I just can't resist...

If you don't understand the difference between a pile of mandolin parts and a great mandolin nobody in the world is going to be able to explain the value of a great mandolin.

[JeffD]

extreme prices out of proportion to the intrinsic value of the instrument. (Yeh Yeh Yeh. #I know market forces, whatever the market dictates, trolling doesn't mean actual sales and all the rest of the excuses for these ridiculous prices.
With all do respect - a mandolin has no intrinsic value. Nothing has. Intrinsic value is a myth. The only value anything has is the amount people are willing to pay for it. There is no other value.

You can chuckle at market forces, but the reality is that that is the reality. There is nothing else.

[JeffD]

" I'm amazed at what's available now compared to when I first started playing some 35 years ago. "

Ain't that the truth....
I have said it elsewhere - I think we are living in some kind of golden age of accoustic instrument building. All the physical understanding has come together with todays technical precision, and an ancient love for craftsmanship - some critical assemblage of forces, and the result is instruments repeatably built as good as the best of the best were made infrequently.

I don't know much about luthiary, but I am astonished at how much lovely sound pumps out of my Weber Aspen II. Its just a little wooden box.

[Glassweb]

I added one more potato earlier this year. I play four vintage Gibsons from the 1920s daily and am very familiar with the vintage Gibson sound and love it. I've played many Loars over the past 30 years as well. I still stand by statement though about being able to get "the tone" or at least close enough for under 10k. I'm amazed at what's available now compared to when I first started playing some 35 years ago.
I agree with you Ken... it's a whole different ballgame for today's mandolinists than it was 35 years ago... choices, choices, choices - I also agree that if one takes the time to sample everything being offered in the current market they will certainly do well for under $10K... even under $5K... tell me the Collings MT and MF mandolins aren't the best mandos for the money... superb instruments!

[Paul Kotapish]

Skanderbeg,

I think your question is fair enough, but I would argue that you are mistaken to conflate the effects of market forces with hype and one-upsmanship.

The top-name luthiers have a reputation for building exceptionally fine instruments. We can swap anecdotes until the cows come home about how my old Flatiron A with rusty strings can out-chop your new Dudenbostel any day of the week, but enough superb musicians have performed on, recorded with, and sung the praises of Dudes, Gils, Nuggets, Gibsons, and Collings instruments so that those select hatchets have an association with quality that is widely recognized.

Is every Gilchrist or Gibson or Dudenbostel worthy of all the hubbub? Perhaps not. But enough of them are so exceptionally good that it's a fairly good bet for quality and a reasonable investment beyond that. Are there individual Flatirons, Webers, or Eastmans that are as good as any of the top-name instruments? Probably, but not on a consistent-enough basis to really equalize the market.

There's not really an effective response to the perception that Dudes, Gils, Nuggets, Loars, (you name it) just don't seem that much better than the more reasonably priced instrument. Some of us hear and feel a difference--others of us shrug and wonder what all the fuss is about.

(I understand that. I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would spend all that extra money on a Lexus or BMW or Mercedes when my old Honda Civic does everything I need it to do for a fraction of the price of a fancy car.)

And some of us have better ears than others. I know that when David Grisman or Mike Marshall or Jody Stecher picks up a mandolin, they are listening with a far more sophisticated set of ears than I will ever have, and they perceive subtleties that will always be lost on me.

The analogy to my local housing market is apt. Prices here for homes are ridiculous, and for the same money that I spent on a small fixer-upper here one could own a palace in many other parts of the country. But I love this area, and the qualities I treasure--qualities that may well be imperceptible to anyone not as enamored of the bay area as I am--are worth the ridiculous price.

[uncle ken]

I agree with you Steven about the Collings A's. Everytime I pick one up at a store and play one it takes all my will power to resist getting out the credit card. Those have to be the best sound for the price anywhere.

Maybe this generation of builders being so good has to do with how we grew up addicted to music and artistry, the 60's and all that, also our disposable income and willingness to pay for quality instruments. Back in the old days of Gibson, instrument building was probably considered manual labor (although highly skilled) today it's artistry and highly valued.

[Steven Stone]

[So what is special about the Gilchrist and Nugget?]

Steven Gilchrist and Mike Kemetzer (SP?).

Ask any luthier...the more skilled they are the more respect they have for these two guys.

And if YOU can't see the difference between their work and a factory-made instrument you just aren't looking close enough.

The poster who wrote "Either you get it or you don't" obviously gets it. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[David Newton]

Sometimes when I go fishing, I get lots of hits on a piece of bait, but then the action cools, so I put another piece of bait on...

[Spruce]

Groundhog Day indeed....

OK, here's an observation...

I know of at least 3 well-known and very talented mandolin makers who came back from "retirement" to build again....

How cool is that??!!

Why do you think they started to build again??

The fact that it is now possible to make a living building mandos (as opposed to the 70-80's) speaks volumes, and should be celebrated and congratulated, not chastised...

[JeffD]

Sometimes when I go fishing, I get lots of hits on a piece of bait, but then the action cools, so I put another piece of bait on...
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I'm done.

[Jim M.]

I know of at least 3 well-known and very talented mandolin makers who came back from "retirement" to build again....

How cool is that??!!
I think that's very cool. Let me think, Stan Miller, Tom Ellis -- who is the 3rd?

[Lefty&French]

...By the way in answer to the question I have been playing and collecting mandolins since 1980 and owned at least 25 great mandolins for which I have paid large sums in some cases, but that does not mean I can't question the basis for extreme prices out of proportion to the intrinsic value of the instrument. (Yeh Yeh Yeh. #I know market forces, whatever the market dictates, trolling doesn't mean actual sales and all the rest of the excuses for these ridiculous prices.
In French: Bla, bla, bla.
(PS. Steve, I think it's spelled Mike Kemnitzer)

[mrmando]

I was in one of my favorite shops the other day, and I look in the repair room and see a mandolin case, so I ask the feller about it. Out comes a shiny new F5 built by someone I'm told is a highly regarded guitar luthier. It has a torch & wire headstock and the fancy fretboard inlays one sometimes sees on pre-1912 Gibsons, although in other respects it appears to be built from Siminoff plans. All the work is very, very clean, the one-piece maple back is nicely flamed. Even has an abalone nut. Gorgeous, gorgeous.

But then I pick on it a bit, and beautiful workmanship aside, it just doesn't have anything going for in terms of tone. I say to the feller that he probably can't get more than $1,800 for it, because starting at around that price, there are plainer mandolins that sound better. I check the date on the label: 1993, but it's obviously never been played or owned or purchased by anyone, and with good reason.

But hey, if someone thinks that mandolin is the equivalent of a Nugget, I will be more than happy to buy that mandolin and trade it to him for said Nugget.

[Andy Fielding]

But the fact that Gils/Nuggets/etc. sell (often with a multi-year waiting list) for the prices they do clearly indicates that SOMEONE is willing to pay top dollar for those instuments.
Yes, and as often as not, they're people who can only stumble through a few tunes, have more money than they know what to do with, and enjoy collecting fine instruments for their home showcases.

I've known several of these people over the years. My sense is that most haven't the talent or dedication to become anything more than musical dabblers, so they compensate by amassing collections of fine instruments, which make them feel more "musical". There's also often a kind of power thing: they could casually buy all these high-end instruments that, for most musicians, would be either a very serious investment or simply impossible.

Some non-playing collectors invest in instruments purely on speculation. Others see them as art objects (which they are, of course) and collect them the way they'd collect paintings or fine china.

These people, not musicians, are what has driven up prices so ridiculously. It's always been that way, with all kinds of instruments—guitars, violins, pianos.

Too bad. Imagine if makers stopped plastering their names on their instruments, so the instruments' values could be judged solely on their musical quality, durability, and attention to detail. But that's not the kind of society we live in. When you walk into a jam session with a famous name on your peghead, you get instant admiration, even if that particular instrument sounds like a Salvation Army special (or if it does because that's how you play it!).

<inflammatory comment removed by Moderator>

[mrmando]

I think that's very cool. Let me think, Stan Miller, Tom Ellis -- who is the 3rd?
Rolfe Gerhardt?

A while ago Melvin Tucker said he was thinking about starting to build again, but I don't know if he followed through on that.

[Mandolin Mick]

Andy Fielding-

Enjoyed reading your post. Very true about collectors and the prestige of owning a Gibson as opposed to a Silvertone.

My favorite experience is with my Hofner Bass. I was in a Beatles tribute band years ago and when I'd take it out of the case people would gather around and ask, "Is that a REAL Hofner?" After a while I learned to answer the question before it was asked as I brought it out, "Yes, it's a real Hofner!"
The difference with that bass though ... you can only get that tone from a Hofner!

[DannyB]

Even with some of the responses the OP is getting I think it's a valid question. Now I wouldn't have mentioned any of the names of the builders and possibly made it a little more of a generalization but this has been hashed out on here before. My question would be, How much did the internet have to do with the upswing of pricing? My opinion is that it had alot to do with it. Again that's my opinion. I've been playing for over 25 years, I'm not as good as I'd like to be and I do feel a good instrument makes a big difference in your playing. The sound and playability naturally will make you want to practice more. That being said my opinion is also that the prices for a bunch of them is way too high. Again only my opinion, at spbgma I played a $2500 dollar instrument that would have rivaled just about anything there, I did play a $35000 dollar instrument that blew that one away but for me there's no way I'd pay that for any mandolin. I am NOT a collector just a picker who likes to eat and have a few other toys. So I do what everyone on here has suggested, I buy what I can afford, and the best sound I can afford and I still feel it was overpriced but I'm a tightwad so to speak. So boiling this down do I feel they are overpriced? The answer is yes. Is this just one more dummy's opinion? YES IT IS... Maybe I'm just ticked that they are way out of my price range and I could never afford them...Who know's?

DISCLAIMER
Warning no mandolin buyer or builder was harmed in the forming of this opinion!

[jim_n_virginia]

Don't know what would make you want to resurrect a almost 3 year old post on a subject that's been hashed to death but ... :grin:

People can buy whatever they want or can afford. It doesn't matter if they can stumble through a song or not. And inexperienced collectors are not what drives the prices up it is the market and what people are willing to pay for one. Like Mike Compton or Tim O'Brien who own Gils and Nuggets.

For every non musical collector who buys a Nugget or Gil I'll bet you can find a a professional musician who has a highly developed sense of music who has the bucks to afford and instrument of that caliber and can appreciate the tone.

That would be like saying the reason price's for a Lambourgini is so high is because of rich collectors who barely know how to handle a race car.

No it is because not that many are made and a lot of people who can afford them want then for whatever reason. It is the same with an Nugget or a Gil, there's just not that many of them and more people want them.

I'll bet if Mike opens a huge factory and starts cranking out 1000 Nuggets a day I'll wager the prices with be down to Eastman levels pretty quick.

But think about this... how many Nuggets have there been for sale in the Cafe classified in the last five years. The number is surprisingly low just like Loars, just like Gilchrists.

[Big Joe]

A good share of those who own the big buck mandos can play them... really play them. Not all, but a good share. Of course, many of them bought them before they were big buck mandos too.

[chip]

Some just don't get it and never will. :popcorn:

[RichM]

Yes, and as often as not, they're people who can only stumble through a few tunes, have more money than they know what to do with, and enjoy collecting fine instruments for their home showcases.

I've known several of these people over the years. My sense is that most haven't the talent or dedication to become anything more than musical dabblers, so they compensate by amassing collections of fine instruments, which make them feel more "musical". There's also often a kind of power thing: they could casually buy all these high-end instruments that, for most musicians, would be either a very serious investment or simply impossible.



Yes, these horrible, horrible untalented fools who have the nerve to purchase instruments that they can afford, and will give them the great pleasure of enjoying playing music on a fine instrument. How dare they? Don't they know that fine instruments are only for the mega-talented? Excuse me, sir, you're not allowed in the Gilchrist aisles. The Hondo II aisle is right over there.

I've never understood this "only great musicians should be allowed to own great instruments" attitude that some people espouse. I'm a passable player who has chosen to make music a hobby rather than a career. I'd probably never blow anybody away with my mad skillz, but playing music has been one of life's true pleasures for over 30 years. I have always wanted a Monteleone Grand Artist, but have never been able to afford one. But you can be darn sure that if I won the lottery or came into an inheritance, I'd pick one up fast. Sorry that someone might think I'm not "good enough" to own one; they can cry in their beer while I'm enjoying my fine, fine mandolin.

[woodwizard]

[QUOTE=jim_n_virginia;765718]

People can buy whatever they want or can afford. It doesn't matter if they can stumble through a song or not. And inexperienced collectors are not what drives the prices up it is the market and what people are willing to pay for one.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I concur ~o)

[tcapps]

Rich, you are right on. Well said.

[allenhopkins]

If there were a proficiency exam for acquiring instruments, I sure wouldn't have 75 of 'em. Maybe two or three.

[mandroid]

It's all relative.. Maybe If Skanderbeg can get a big Income Raise for his work,

it won't feel like as much of a price problem..

:popcorn:

[woodwizard]

I'm sure nearly all of us here would have even more pricy/high end mandolins if only ... we had a lot more money. :)

[Mandoblab]

WAY, WAY EARLIER in this thread, there was discussion regarding price being set by the law of supply and demand:

I would imagine that there probably isn't a lot of disagreement that both Gilchrist and Dudenbostel build equally fine instruments. Yet Dudenbostel mandolins currently sell for about 5K more than Gilchrists. Why?

Well, Dude has built about 50 mandolins to date. Gilchrist has built about 650. In this I believe we have a good example of supply and demand dictating the relative price.

Mandoblab

[pjlama]

Wow, I forgot all about this one. It does have a familiar smell, kinda like staying over your grandparents when you were a kid. Ahhh this is it;

[pjlama]

I'm sure nearly all of us here would have even more pricy/high end mandolins if only ... we had a lot more money. :)

Ain't that the truth, I'm no great shakes but if I could swing it I'd own a Loar in a heart beat.

[Greg H.]

WAY, WAY EARLIER in this thread, there was discussion regarding price being set by the law of supply and demand:

I would imagine that there probably isn't a lot of disagreement that both Gilchrist and Dudenbostel build equally fine instruments. Yet Dudenbostel mandolins currently sell for about 5K more than Gilchrists. Why?

Well, Dude has built about 50 mandolins to date. Gilchrist has built about 650. In this I believe we have a good example of supply and demand dictating the relative price.

Mandoblab


I think there's a major flaw in your logic here. The reason Gilchrist has created so many more mandolins than Dudenbostel is that Gilchrist started making mandolins in the mid/early 70's, whereas I believe that Dudenbostel has been doing this (as a primary business) since the late 90's or early 2000s(please correct me on this......I'm guessing on when he made luthery his primary job).

[chip]

If I had the money I'd buy a 23 Loar, 26 Fern, etc. Great mandolins and good investments, as it is I'll just settle for my Gil:)

[buckles]

I think there's a major flaw in your logic here. The reason Gilchrist has created so many more mandolins than Dudenbostel is that Gilchrist started making mandolins in the mid/early 70's, whereas I believe that Dudenbostel has been doing this (as a primary business) since the late 90's or early 2000s(please correct me on this......I'm guessing on when he made luthery his primary job).

Lynn has built more guitars than Mandolins.

[Paul Kotapish]

I've never understood this "only great musicians should be allowed to own great instruments" attitude that some people espouse.

Agreed, Rich.

These ongoing threads about high-priced instruments always seem to boil down to a few basic theses:

- That Gilchrist (Nugget, Dudenbostel) ain't five times better than my ______ (fill in your favorite reasonably priced maker here), therefore it's a ripoff

- Anyone owning a Nugget (Dudenbostel, Gilchrist) bought it for the status it confers

- Anyone other than a top professional who collects fine instruments is just compensating for lack of musical ability

All of which sounds like sour grapes to me.

Most of the folks I know with Gils, Nuggets, and Dudes can play the heck out of them.

Yes, it is frustrating that there are speculators who snap up fine musical instruments with the sole purpose of profiting from them when the price goes up.

But most collectors I've met are actually real music lovers, often extremely capable musicians, very knowlegeable about the instruments they collect, and frequently view themselves as conservators of valuable assets for the musical community. Many arrange to loan instruments to upcoming players and otherwise share their wealth.

[piiman]

regardless of playing ability, If you can afford a high end instrument then you deserve it.

[Mandoblab]

Dear Greg H.,

I think I might not have explained my point very well. What I was trying to make note of was the relative availability of each builder's product to meet the demand.

If we assume that both Gils and Dudes are equally desirable to own, (that is, the "demand" for each builder's instrument is approximately equal) then mandolin buyers have 13 times the potential "supply" of Gilchrist mandolins available to meet the "demand" then there are Dudenbostels (650 vs. 50).

Hence, the much larger pool of Gils relative to Dudes might be responsible for the 5K premium on the Dudes.

Mandoblab

[pjlama]

If I had the money I'd buy a 23 Loar, 26 Fern, etc. Great mandolins and good investments, as it is I'll just settle for my Gil:)

Sorry Chip but I don't feel too bad for you :))

[fishtownmike]

A Yugo can get you to point A to point B as well as the BMW 750. I can't understand why the BMW cost so much more.

[pjlama]

It's the name ;)

[Bow-man]

I'm fixin' to "upgrade" from my '02 Custom Weber Bitterroot to a Collings. I suck as a player. Yeah, maybe I'm a fool, and maybe I don't deserve it. But it's ok. I'll play it just the same!
This whole thread is sort of like a cigar thing; I love good cigars. the thing is, I don't quite have the palate to distinguish between certain nuances between the higher end brands. I just know what I like and don't like. My cousin can remember every single cigar he's ever smoked-- the finish, the aroma, things that I just cannot perceive. Same thing with Scotch. Now I can tell subtle differences between Island, Highlands, certain malts, etc., but not cigars.
I only wish that my ear was as refined as my taste buds or my cousin's nose so that I could perhaps better appreciate the subtle (or not so subtle) differences in higher-end instruments. One thing's for sure-- my Weber is way better than my first mando, an Alvarez A-style. And Arturo Fuente's will always be better than Swisher Sweets, I don't care who you are! Consequently, the prices reflect this.
As a side note: some folks don't like Cuban cigars and say their quality has gone down, don't taste as good, etc. But I can't help but wonder if that's because they are so hard to get for them so it's easier to poo-poo them from afar? Could the same be true for high-end instruments, too?

[Tony Sz]

A Yugo can get you to point A to point B as well as the BMW 750. I can't understand why the BMW cost so much more.

A Yugo got blown off of the Mackinac Bridge some years back. Too bad the people inside weren't driving a BMW

[unclelee]

My verson

rich gal drinks the best champange
poor gal does the same
my gal drinks her after shave lotion
and she gets drunk just the same

[JeffD]

A Yugo can get you to point A to point B as well as the BMW 750. I can't understand why the BMW cost so much more.

Because so many people are willing to pay more. Thats it. Every other explanation, whether true or not, is another discussion and besides the point. The real question to ask, it seems to me, is why are so many people willing to pay more. And I have to admit I often haven't a clue. :crying:

I have come to believe that there is no difference between actual value and perceived value. Actual value would be the price someone is willing to pay and perceived value what that buyer thinks its worth. :disbelief:

Whether this should be the case or not is also another discussion. :grin:

[Mark Gibbs]

If you spend the big bucks for a high end mandolin you expect the sound to be superior, the finish to be superior, and that it will last for lifetime. What is nice about wooden instruments is that you don't necessarily have to buy the most expensive instrument to get those qualities, you just have to shop around until you find one...
The last Bluegrass festival I went to the best sounding bluegrass type mando on stage was a 1970's Ibanez F-5

If i had 15k to drop on a mandolin, I think I'd spend 5, pocket 10 and buy a Wiens. :)) :grin: :whistling:

[birdman98]

These threads have a way of going into "it's worth whatever someone is willing to pay" mode.

I think the OP may have been wondering if there is a significant difference in man-hours, materials and building expertise that goes into the construction of the super-high dollar instruments, thus establishing the price gap between a $20,000 mando and a $5,000 one.

Or maybe it's purely the name on the headstock that drives the difference???

[RichM]

I posted this in another thread a long time ago, but I think it's relevant to the question you're asking here. The OP was asking why a Colling MF5V cost so much more than what he thought were comparable instruments. I think the answer is as relevant here as it was there:

1. The Collings MF5V is probably more expensive to make than many other less expensive mandolins. The expense may be driven by the quality of the raw materials, but is probably more significantly driven by the cost of hand labor to complete the instrument. Is it $6000 more labor? Almost certainly not. Is it more labor than Don Paine or Rolfe Gerhardt put into their mandolins? Almost certainly not, either, although anybody producing a varnished mandolin is going to have a signficant labor input.
2. So why does Collings charge so much for an MF5V? Because:
a. Enough people are pleased enough with Collings' quality that they are willing to pay that.
b. Collings has some business formula that indicates that this price point is feasible.
c. There is a high enough demand for Collings' product that the customer base at this price point hasn't been exhausted yet.

In simplest terms: that Collings MF5V that doesn't float your boat DOES float someone else's boat-- enough so that Collings can sell what they make at that price point. And as other posters have noted, if you can't hear the difference between a $3000 mandolin and a $9000 mandolin, lucky you-- you just saved $6000.

My opinion: above a certain price point, the difference between mandolins becomes less about shaky terms like "quality" and more about issues like "preference." I have played a couple Oliver Apitius mandolins that just knocked my socks off. If I were very wealthy, I would own both of them. However, I am not very wealthy, so I own neither. But if I had a disposable $10K, yeah, I'd have one.

I have a bunch of mandolins, but my two favorites are by Dave Cohen and Peter Coombe-- two top-notch luthiers who are pretty well-known on this board, but probably not super-famous to the world in general. While neither mando was cheap, they were bargains compared to the prices for comparable instruments by Gibson or Collings. So in the end, Dave and Peter took less money for their labor than the might have. Lynn Dudenbostel, Steve Gilchrist, John Monteleone, Mike Kemnitzer-- what you'll pay for a box of wood and steel from these guys would buy a minivan. They're probably not paying much more for their raw materials, but they're able to charge a great deal more for their labor. Reputation for a reliably high quality product drives demand, demand drives price, and the market determines where the price will stop.

You might as well put a Picasso next to a well-regarded young artist and ask why it's worth $25 million more. Did Picasso use more expensive paints? No man-- it's a *Picasso.*

[fred d]

:)) That was a hour of fun wasted time but amusing all the same. I also find it amusing that Bluegrassers (mandolin players) talk about thr price of their instruments (high end $$$$$$) Blues players talk about what trash can bin they found theirs in as in anything money does't buy ability and happiness> Wife and I have about 75 middle low and high end instruments and don't we have fun I love wiskey and she likes wine :grin::crying::sleepy:

[JeffD]

These threads have a way of going into "it's worth whatever someone is willing to pay" mode.

I think that is the right lense through which to see this.


I think the OP may have been wondering if there is a significant difference in man-hours, materials and building expertise that goes into the construction of the super-high dollar instruments, thus establishing the price gap between a $20,000 mando and a $5,000 one.

There may be, but I think its the sound quality and playability, followed by aesthetic considerations, that folks are willing to pay for, irrespective of how long it takes to create something like that.


Or maybe it's purely the name on the headstock that drives the difference???

This may be true in some cases, but I don't think it holds water as a general statement. Whether the better tone, playability, and beauty of the instrument is worth the price difference to you or me is another thing entirely. But it is worth it to enough people to allow the high end luthier to sell at those prices.

[frankenstein]

Reputation for a reliably high quality product drives demand, demand drives price, and the market determines where the price will stop. Yep! there it is
i feel. Reputations don't fall out if the sky or get handed out for free. They have been earned. Gilchrist was one of the only ones building a decent mandolin way back then and now after how many mandolins ?? Man that's hard work and hard work and vigilance for your product is what get's you one of them reputations.. Details are what you are looking for in a fine instrument so if you can't hear the difference you don't have to pay for it. it's all good..:)