Flatiron on eb@y

[MikeEdgerton]

My guess is that this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160145892709&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2Fsearch%2Fse arch.dll%3Ffrom%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dm37%26satitle%3D 160145892709%26fvi%3D1) is Chinese. I could be wrong.

[cooper4205]

My guess is that this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160145892709&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2Fsearch%2Fse arch.dll%3Ffrom%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dm37%26satitle%3D 160145892709%26fvi%3D1) is Chinese. I could be wrong.
it is, aside from the appointments the headstock and body scrolls give it away as one of the imported one, IMO

[bradeinhorn]

Gentlemen, let the fraud begin! Definitely looks like an epiflat to me. is it me, or does it look like the label has been removed?

[MikeEdgerton]

I sent him an e-mail asking where it was made. I'm gonna guess that he won't post the reply on the auction.

[Bernie Daniel]

Yeah interesting description:


Ebay description: "You are bidding on a Gibson Flatiron Mandolin. This mandolin is in like new condition. I have played in a bluegrass band for many years and I can assure you this mandolin plays easy and sounds mellow. It is in excellent condition.


He/she may have played in a band for many years - but not with that mando necessarily! #And it is in new condition because it is NEW? perhaps? #Notice the case looks brand new too http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Looks like an import to me the finish colors are not quite "right" are they?

[bradeinhorn]

Looks like an import to me the finish colors are not quite "right" are they?
they are right as rain...for the new imports. my guess is that he'll update it by the afternoon. in any case, if it sticks around the same price, 500 would be a pretty excellent deal on one of these. It's not a bad mandolin by any means.

i agree his wording was pretty deceptive, though. if the price starts reaching above what these go for new (around 700-800) I think the bidders and/or ebay should definitely be notified.

[mythicfish]

Just like watchin' the detectives ...

Curt

[bradeinhorn]

Don't get cute!

[12 fret]

He says its an F Festival Model which would make it a Montana made?

[MikeEdgerton]

I think the bidders and/or ebay should definitely be notified

We could notify eBay all we want but the guy isn't breaking any eBay rules (yet). So far everything he has written in that ad is true. It is a Flatiron by Gibson. As far as notifying the bidders if anyone had an e-mail address for Bidders 1-6 we could do that(the bidders names are hidden) but that would be in violation of eBay rules (interfering with an auction). I agree that if the auction stays where it is the price isn't all that bad. I have a feeling it will go higher.

[MikeEdgerton]

He says its an F Festival Model which would make it a Montana made?
I think they call it the F2 but I don't know if they have Festival in the name of the imports or not. last time I looked there was very little information available from Gibson.

[mythicfish]

If youse guys are so upset about the sale of a mandolin, I hate to think about how y'all would react if the country was at war with the worlds financial markets in a state of free-fall, and .... wait a minute! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Curt

[Givson]

That pointy heel does not look like the rounded heel on Montana Flatirons. #The finish is also suspicious. #My guess is that it's Chinese made. Also, Montana Flatirons did not come with a pickguard.

Janet Davis lists the "Flatiron "Festival" F2 F-style Mandolin" as made in China. They sell it for $799 without a case.

[bradeinhorn]

first of all there is no doubt it is one of the new ones. the old festivals didnt have back binding - i think there is at least one on ebay right now. all the specs of this one point to the new epiphone flatirons.

and mike- i would argue that failure to disclose pertinent information like where the instrument is made, the specific model number, or year of production, is fraudulent. ommissions are misrepresentations. Any one of those three pieces of information would settle the dispute instantly.

In any case, assuming the information doesn't change, this auction will be a good test of whether people will be able to tell the difference in these new models or if they'll be confused.

B

[cooper4205]

If youse guys are so upset about the sale of a mandolin, I hate to think about how y'all would react if the country was at war with the worlds financial markets in a state of free-fall, and .... wait a minute! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Curt
you ever thought about not chiming in on threads you don't like?

[12 fret]

[QUOTE] i would argue that failure to disclose pertinent information like where the instrument is made, the specific model number, or year of production, is fraudulent. ommissions are misrepresentations. Any one of those three pieces of information would settle the dispute instantly.

Disagree a little on this. Ebay is and always has been a "buyer beware" market. You could run an auction with no description if you choose. The seller may or may not know this information. I do think the description is too carefully worded to assume they don't know but they also are not stating it is USA made. The $500 may be a good price but there is also a reserve so its only going to sell if it goes higher. What's funny is that Gibson is so protective of their trademarks but have taken a marketing direction that could potentially result in some ill will from buyers thinking they are getting USA made Flatirons. Not everybody reads these forums.

[MikeEdgerton]

eBay doesn't care what you don't say, it cares what you do say. Right or wrong, those are the way the rules are written. I think this guy is hoping that people will assume it's a made in the USA Flatiron. Heck, he might have purchased it thinking the same thing. That doesn't make it right, it's just the way eBay applies their rules. As of now he isn't in violation of any of their rules.

[bradeinhorn]

#What's funny is that Gibson is so protective of their trademarks but have taken a marketing direction that could potentially result in some ill will from buyers thinking they are getting USA made Flatirons. Not everybody reads these forums.
I have seen these mandolins up close and "Gibson" is very hard to find on it. The major interior indication on the label is "Epiphone".

Yes, Gibson is the mother company, but this guy is just brand spamming.

[Bernie Daniel]

Quote (mythicfish @ Aug. 10 2007, 09:40)
If youse guys are so upset about the sale of a #mandolin, I hate to think about how y'all would react if the country was at war with the worlds financial markets in a state of free-fall, and .... wait a minute! #

Curt


cooper4205: you ever thought about not chiming in on threads you don't like?

Now THERE is a novel idea!

[12 fret]

Well, its working, Bids are currently at $1400, reserve met. Its in the same range as the real one listed

[bradeinhorn]

yeah....here we go!!!!

[jbrwky]

It's Chinese. The color is the same as the one I played at Merlefest and the Fluer-de-Lis on the headstaock is definitive.

[bradeinhorn]

by the way-ebay's listing policies prohibit "misleading information". though nothing is untrue per se. there is a ton of misleading info in this listing.

[MikeEdgerton]

Again, they would see nothing wrong with the listing because it doesn't say anything. They don't care what isn't written.

[fatt-dad]

the new epiphone flatirons.
O.K. so how 'bout this line-up:

Flatiron
Flatson
Nash-Flatson
New Nash-Flatson (really rare)
Flatiphone

I'm sticking with this vernacular to identify pedigree.

f-d

[12 fret]

Reading it over, the misleading element is omission. Like I said, the seller has carefully worded the ad in a way that they don't seem to be giving a fraudulent or inaccurate description. If the buyers don't ask , assume its USA made , and bid a couple of thou for an $800 instrument, it would seem to be within their guidelines.

[Ken Berner]

jbrwky, I also played that mandolin at MerleFest and my first reaction was regarding the color. It had a more yellow tint in the stain than any American-built Flatiron I had ever seen. Of course there was no misrepresentation there; you get what you see. Although I was not impressed by that instrument, it seemed worth the asking price ($799?) and certainly stacked up with that horde of Eastmans in the tent.

[MikeEdgerton]

Heck, no sense in not reporting it and seeing what eBay does. We'll see if they pull the auction. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[12 fret]

Looking at the bids, the reserve was apparently set at $1400. Seller appears to think its a USA model

[MikeEdgerton]

The seller has added the following (and replied to my e-mail with the same message). Apparently he has had other questions.

"All I know about this Mandolin is that is is in good shape with only a few small scratches on the top side. As far as where it is made I can tell you there is a sticker on the inside that I did not notice before that says "THE FLATIRON, Style: F-Festival
Number: DW07060011
"Gibson Original Acoustic Instruments"
Nowhere does it say thats it is made in china or in the US. I do not know if it is old or new, Mabye you can tell by the information I just gave you. Sorry I did not give the Number of it before i did not notice it. I will be adding it to the auction ASAP. Thanks
JT"

I knew Gibson was going to cause a bunch of trouble by putting that "Gibson Original Acoustic Instruments" bit on the label.

Guess I'd better order up a few from JDMC. That's a pretty healthy margin that guy is getting!

Just show some photos with closeups on the "Flatiron" inlay and say "I haven't had time to play this much so it is time for it to go. What you see in the photos is what you get."

It is possible that someone is messing with this guy by bidding high.

[cooper4205]

American made Flatirons shouldn't have the DW in front of the SN.

[MikeEdgerton]

It is possible that someone is messing with this guy by bidding high.

I doubt it, his reserve was 1400.00. That isn't to say that he didn't buy it from someone thinking it was an American made Flatiron. I suspect otherwise from our correspondance.

[bradeinhorn]

the one i saw - epihone was prominent on the label. perhaps this was an early prototype...

this guy is obviously full of it....i got the same email twice from him. he knows what he has and is playing dumb.

I also wouldnt be surprised if he or someone related to him bid the 1400 to drum up some bidding interest. I'd be very interested to know how he came by it.

[Peter]

This is the response to a question to the EBay seller. Pretty inconclusive!

"All I know about this Mandolin is that is is in good shape with only a few small scratches on the top side. As far as where it is made I can tell you there is a sticker on the inside that I did not notice before that says "THE FLATIRON, Style: F-Festival
Number: DW07060011
"Gibson Original Acoustic Instruments"
Nowhere does it say thats it is made in china or in the US. I do not know if it is old or new, Mabye you can tell by the information I just gave you. Sorry I did not give the Number of it before i did not notice it. I will be adding it to the auction ASAP. Thanks
JT

- home-spun"

Hope this helps.

[cooper4205]

I also wouldnt be surprised if he or someone related to him bid the 1400 to drum up some bidding interest. I'd be very interested to know how he came by it.
It seems strange to me too that this Flatiron would get bids that quickly. heck most of the U.S.-made Flatirons won't get bid on till the end or will be listed multiple times, yet this one is up to $1400 in a few hours when you can buy them completely new for half that.

[Peter]

Is there anyone in the seller's area who can go to view this to determine exactlt what it is? I'd do so but the UK is a bit far away!

[bradeinhorn]

Is there anyone in the seller's area who can go to view this to determine exactlt what it is? I'd do so but the UK is a bit far away!
it is absolutely a chinese made flatiron. i'd bet my daley on it.

[jbrwky]

Ken, I agree with your assessment. Worth $800 but not double that.

[12 fret]

Re: the conspiracy theories...

Don't think the bidder is in colusion only because they made earlier lower bids. If they were working with the seller they'd know what the reserve was. Seller may not know better either only because he set a $1400 reserve on what everyone thinks is an $800 instrument. If he was scamming, it would seem more likely to set the reserve below $1000 to insure it sells. The label issue does cast a shadow only because the made in China isn't present and the difference between this and other label styles noted.

[allenhopkins]

O.K. so how 'bout this line-up:

Flatiron
Flatson
Nash-Flatson
New Nash-Flatson (really rare)
Flatiphone

I'm sticking with this vernacular to identify pedigree.
How about "Flatulent"?

[John Hill]

Quote (mythicfish @ Aug. 10 2007, 09:40)
If youse guys are so upset about the sale of a #mandolin, I hate to think about how y'all would react if the country was at war with the worlds financial markets in a state of free-fall, and .... wait a minute! #

Curt


cooper4205: you ever thought about not chiming in on threads you don't like?

Now THERE is a novel idea!
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[bradeinhorn]

Fraudiron

[pickinNgrinnin]

I've owned 2 Nashville Flatiron Festival F's and this is not a Nashville made Flatiron. Not a Montana made either. I thought something like this would happen once they started making these in China. Some sucker is looking to take a fall. Buyer beware indeed.

[delsbrother]

I like Flatsontype better than New Nash-Flatson. I mean, if they had gone into production, wouldn't they have just been the latest model Flatson?

Anyway, this eBay auction is definitely Flatulent.

As I recall from discussions a while back when the Chinese-made Flatirons were first shown, the Chinese model is the Festival F2 while the original US-made was the Festival F (no 1, just F).

If this really is a Festival F then it is US-made.

In any case, this particular auction shows that the problems with origin-confusion are indeed real. People who have earlier Flatirons are going to have to be very careful in their descriptions to be sure potential buyers are confident that they are bidding on a real US-made Flatiron. Some potential buyers will simply avoid all Flatiron F-models on ebay. It could cost some poor guy some money...

[Bernie Daniel]

delsbrother: Anyway, this eBay auction is definitely Flatulent.

You are right -- it stinks. # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[woodwizard]

Just sent him a question. Explained the diff. between older and newer ones regarding price and told him Janet Davis's price. Asked if he had proof one way or the other before I bid. Wonder what he'll answer if at all.

[MikeEdgerton]

He probably has a few dozen messages like that already http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

He keeps sending the same boilerplate that he has at the bottom of the auction as an answer.

[Bernie Daniel]

Something smells here.

He does not know anything about the mandolins -- but he has "played in a bluegrass band for years"? Someone is lying here or what?!!

[cooper4205]

As I recall from discussions a while back when the Chinese-made Flatirons were first shown, the Chinese model is the Festival F2 while the original US-made was the Festival F (no 1, just F).

If this really is a Festival F then it is US-made.

In any case, this particular auction shows that the problems with origin-confusion are indeed real. People who have earlier Flatirons are going to have to be very careful in their descriptions to be sure potential buyers are confident that they are bidding on a real US-made Flatiron. Some potential buyers will simply avoid all Flatiron F-models on ebay. It could cost some poor guy some money...
but I have never heard of a U.S.-made Flatiron that has a serial number that started with DW. Plus the scroll carving is not what you'd see on an American made one. There is no doubt that this is a Chinese made one, whether is has F2 on the label or not. I agree, though, that these could cause a little confusion when it comes time for someone to sell their American made one.

You are very familiar with Flatirons. Not that many people who purchase mandolins really know much about them. If they hear a rumor that there is something not-right about Flatirons they won't buy one.

[cooper4205]

You are very familiar with Flatirons. Not that many people who purchase mandolins really know much about them. If they hear a rumor that there is something not-right about Flatirons they won't buy one.
i know, and agree with you on that. i was just saying that there is no way this could be an American one, even if it just said Festival F on the label, due to those other factors. it was speculated that this might cause some confusion in one of the earlier threads on the topic.

[KNP String Band Mando]

Icky Sunburst, yuck.

[kvk]

the new epiphone flatirons.
O.K. so how 'bout this line-up:

Flatiron
Flatson
Nash-Flatson
New Nash-Flatson (really rare)
Flatiphone

I'm sticking with this vernacular to identify pedigree.

f-d
Kinda reminds of the New Minglewood Blues, the All New Minglewood Blues, and the New New Minglewood Blues.

[kvk]

Wasn't there some guy that used to bid like $50,000 whenever a fake mando auction went up on eBay? Get suspended for 30 days and then do the next one. Kinda of an odd public service, the vigilante of eBay.

[12 fret]

Don't know if anyone noticed this in the past but in the case of the Flatiron and the D'Angelico auctions, the sellers ID and feedback show long time membership on Ebay but very little activity. Per the feedback, the Flatiron seller only has a handful of buying transactions, no feedback on any sales.

[bradeinhorn]

i am sure he has it. he is just playing innocent to get more than it is worth.

[mrmando]

He does not know anything about the mandolins -- but he has "played in a bluegrass band for years"? Someone is lying here or what?!!
Well, he could be a banjo player...

[woodwizard]

Got an answer to my question as far as where it was made before I bid. As follows:

i cannot tell in which plant this mandolin was built. i know it wasn't an original montana made because it would not say Gigson inside. i do know after gibson bought out flatiron they started building them in Tenn. there is no import markings on it so i'm at a loss as to know which is which. if you bid and buy i will refund if not satisfied! there are two other flatirons on ebay presently. sorry i can't do mandolin DNA!

He's determined.
I'll leave it up to you guys... but I'm not bidding!

[bradeinhorn]

pathetic- what a joker! This guy is becoming the master of talking around obvious facts. Still think he's not being misleading?

He will not answer the simple question - "how did you come by it?" which i asked him several hours ago. That I think would simply point to the truth too much.

[woodwizard]

I'm wondering if anyone can get a mfg date from the serial # he's now giving? DW07060011

[johnl]

Going by the Epiphone serial numbering scheme, DW07060011 is the Daewon plant in China, June 2007 (#0011). Could be a coincidence...

[woodwizard]

Yes! The TRUTH!
I wish someone would send that info to him. I know ... I know ... it wouldn't change anything. But atleast he would know we knew.

[Mikey G]

Definitely not a Flatiron festival...it's one of those Chinese pac rim mandos. I have a 2001 Flatiron Festival...no pickguard or back binding, plus different color and sunburst. I can tell without a doubt that it's not a Nashville Gibson.

Could be a coincidence...
Could be, but it would be quite a coincidence.

This guy seems to be like a lot of those "I don't know what this is" folks who do indeed know what it is but hope the bidders don't. Most people who honestly don't know what they have reply by asking where they can find the info you are asking for.

There is always the possibility he got shafted on it and is trying to pass the shaft along. At least he gave us something to talk about for a while.

[Meadowview]

I recently bought one of the "Gibson Flatiron" mandolins just like the one on E-Bay. It came with a Epiphone retangular hardshell case. Has a "Gibson Origional Acoustic Instrument" label inside and had a "Made in China" label on the back of the headstock. I gave $795 for it and the case---brand new.

Definitely not a Flatiron festival...
That's the problem... It really is a Flatiron Festival. That's what Gibson chose to call that particular Chinese model.

[12 fret]

[QUOTE] had a "Made in China" label on the back of the headstock.

Do I understand that there is a removeable (?) label with the "made in China" legend on the back of the headstock and the country of origin is omitted from the interior paper label? If that's the case its almost as if Gibson wants this kind of confusion

[pickinNgrinnin]

Here's a response I got from him:

I'M SURE ITS NOT MONTANA MADE BECAUSE IT SAYS GIBSON BUT NOT CHINA NOR NASHVILLE; HOW CAN I KNOW POSITIVELY? GIGSON SHOULD SPECIFICALLY IDENTIFY. I HAVE NO INTENTION OF MISLEADING ANYONE; I PERSONALLY SAW FLATIRONS BEING PRODUCED IN NASHVILLE AT THE OPRY MILLS MALL LOCATION AFTER GIBSON PURCHASED FLATIRON; HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO KNOW A CHANGE IN MANUFACTURING OCCURRED???

2nd response - all caps again:

I'M NOT SURE MY RESPONSE GOT SENT REGARDING THE FLATIRON I HAVE ON EBAY. ALL I KNOW IS I PERSONALLY SAW FLATIRONS BEING PRODUCED IN NASHVILLE AT THE OPRY MILLS MALL AND A FRIEND OF MINE HAD ONE AND I CAME UPON THIS ONE AND BOUGHT IT ASSUMING IT WAS MADE AT THAT FACILITY; HOW COULD I KNOW DIFFERENTLY; IT HAS NO OTHER MARKINGS OTHER THAN MADE BY GIBSON; I DO INTEND TO MISREPRESENT THE "ORIGIN" OF THIS INSTRUMENT. I BELIEVE WE HAVE MADE THAT ABSOLUTELY CLEAR IN REVISING OUR LISTING.

My 2nd response to the seller:

Dear home-spun,

You may not have known when you bought it that this was a Chinese made Flatiron. Check this website to the the Mandolin:
http://www.janetdavismusic.com/gibson_flatiron_mandolin.html

The Nashville and Montana made Flatirons did not have inlay (Fleur de lis) on the headstock that looks like yours. They had no binding on the back of the Mandolin, had no pickguard. The heel where the neck joins the body is shaped to a point. The US made ones did not have a pointed heel. There are many more differences here. I can guarantee your Mando is not a US made Flatirion. The Chinese made Flatirons are selling for $800 new. Gibson, in the last year, resurrected the Flatiron line in China after having retired the name and production back in 2002 or 03. Many Flatiron faithful, including myself, were not happy with Gibson's decision to bring the Flatiron name back on a Chinese made instrument. It's not a bad Mandolin for the money but it's not the real thing and you should probably state this in your ad.


Geeze, maybe Ted Wigglesworth moved to Florida? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[MikeEdgerton]

I sent him that link earlier today as well. This guy knows what it is.

[Bernie Daniel]

eBay policy copied from their site:

"Sellers may not disclaim knowledge of, or responsibility for, the authenticity or legality of the items offered in their listings.Sellers should take steps to ensure that their items are authentic before listing them on eBay. If a seller cannot verify the authenticity of an item, the seller is not permitted to list it."

Therefore I will act accordingly.

[MikeEdgerton]

Bernie, the problem is that it is authentic. I already reported it as a fraud by omission. I guess if more people report it they might do something.

[Bernie Daniel]

MikeEdgerton: Bernie, the problem is that it is authentic. I already reported it as a fraud by omission. I guess if more people report it they might do something.

Understood. Accordingly I also reported if for essentially the same reason. #

If possible I intend to notify the "winner", (and I use that term with some skepticism) of what he/she has purchased if at all possible.

With thousands of sales per hour I think the guy will skate as eBay will never act in time.

[12 fret]

I think this listing would pass any Ebay scrutiny. Fraud by ommission maybe, but the seller is covered if the only indication on the instrument that it is an import is a removeable sticker. A number of members indicate they emailed him to advise him of its origin but again, unless someone can direct him to a website that definitively IDs the serial number as import, he can claim no hard knowledge. The bidders are anonymous so unless the ultimate buyer challenges the sale, the sellers got it pretty well covered.

[Bernie Daniel]

The bidders are anonymous so unless the ultimate buyer challenges the sale, the sellers got it pretty well covered.

I thought they used to reveal the eBay name at the end of the auction -- they don't do that anymore?

[Dave Schimming]

The seller has very little feedback and completely avoided a direct answer to the manufacturing origin, run as fast as you can from this one.

[MikeEdgerton]

The final buyer will be shown at the end of the auction.

[allenhopkins]

Well, we had this thread (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=12;t=43540;hl=chinese+flati ron) and this thread (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=13;t=42497;hl=chinese+&nbspflatiron) about Gibson's decision to make Flatiron mandolins in China -- which I complained about, as another dilution and diversion of a respected US nameplate (e.g. Epiphone, Washburn, Regal, Oscar Schmidt, etc. etc.) to cover a line of imports.

There were a lot of posters who said things along the line of, "Hey, Gibson owns the name, they can do what they want with it, and besides, no one's going to mistake these imports for the American-made Flatirons -- in fact, the value of old Flatirons is going to go up!" Well, now we have four pages of Kremlinology and close textual analysis, speculating about the motives and ethics of someone who's selling an (apparently Chinese) Flatiron on eBay.

Without saying "I told you so," this is exactly what many of us expected would happen. Taking the respected Flatiron label and applying it to imports has confused people, who don't know whether this is a $2K (+ or -) Festival F made in MT or TN, or an $800 Festival F-2 made in Szechuan. Yeah, Gibson owns the label and can do what they want to with it, but if they had the transparency to call their new line of Chinese imports "Great Wall" or "Forbidden City" instead of Flatiron, we'd know exactly where we stand. It's legal, but it's devious, in my book anyway, and I think it's too bad Gibson chose to do it.

[JeffS]

Bernie, the problem is that it is authentic. I already reported it as a fraud by omission. I guess if more people report it they might do something.
How is it fraud by omission? It is a Flatiron. The listing is accurate. The seller is taking advantage of it for sure and I wouldn't be surprised if the seller is someone from here doing it to make a point. Blame Gibson if you want to blame someone.

Rather than report it to eBay for fraud I think everyone should call Gibson with the serial number. Explain it is on eBay and you want to verify it is an American made Flatiron vs an import before bidding. If some poor person gets 50+ calls a day like this they might make the imports a little more distinguishable than a peel off made in China sticker.

If that doesn't work then report them to the NFL for using the Saints logo on the headstock.

[mandomick]

Wasn't there some guy that used to bid like $50,000 whenever a fake mando auction went up on eBay? #Get suspended for 30 days and then do the next one. #Kinda of an odd public service, the vigilante of eBay.
Yep. There were several of us that did it but if I recall the sellers were mostly illiterate (in English) from half way around the globe and all used stolen photos and text.

That said, if you all are positive about the origin of this one, do I hear $30,000? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[The Mandolin Store]

Well..............this is definitley a Chinese Flatiron. I am 100% certain having had one in my hands. There have only been a handfull of these make it out for sale.
Dennis
www.themandolinstore.com

[K3NTUCKI8oy]

its trash

[Ken Berner]

Thank You, Allen Hopkins; that's it in a nutshell, for sure!

[Steevarino]

I guess we have all figured out this in indeed a China built Flatiron. #I'll just chime in that I agree with this. #I have one on my workbench right now, and it looks pretty much identical to the one pictured in the eBay auction. #I am putting one of my bridges on the one I have at the shop. I think it will make it sound better.

Things that make me certain it is one of the new ones: #Fleur-d-lis on headstock, unique sunburst and color, slightly different "The Flatiron" inlay, and the pickguard is different. #

The mandolin I have does have the "Made in China" sticker on the back of the peghead. #Easily removable, and would probably come off anyway, after a bit of playing, as it is closer to the neck than the pointy end of the peghead.

Later today I should have some results from the bridge change. #I'll tell you, these boys can copy! #My bridge saddle fits right on the post of their (slightly thinner) bridge base!

Steve

www.CumberlandAcoustic.com

I'm really beginning to believe this guy thought he was getting some kind of really great deal when he bought this mandolin (maybe from Musician's Friend?). He was probably planning to turn it on ebay when he bought it.

Here's what Musician's Friend says about the Flatiron Festival mandolin (this is on the page titled "Gibson Original Mandolins The world's finest, played by all the greats." The F5-G and F5-L are featured on the same page.)

"Flatiron Festival F: a touch of flash
Featuring the same solid-wood construction seen in each of these mandolins, the Festival F provides an additional visual treat with the luxurious three-scroll design and mother-of-pearl fleur-de-lis headstock inlay. And the nickel plated hardware really sets off the scrolled headstock design. As I played it, I was amazed at the power and fullness of the tone. It immediately became an extension of my body, allowing every musical nuance to shine through."

The comment about the "mother-of-pearl fleur-de-lis headstock inlay" in MF's description leaves no doubt that they are talking about the new Chinese-made model though they choose not to mention that model is an import and certainly intend for buyers to assume they are made in the same factory as the F5-G and F5-L.

[Bernie Daniel]

JeffS: Rather than report it to eBay for fraud I think everyone should call Gibson with the serial number. #Explain it is on eBay and you want to verify it is an American made Flatiron vs an import before bidding. #If some poor person gets 50+ calls a day like this they might make the imports a little more distinguishable than a peel off made in China sticker.


I agree with you Jeff it IS at least partly Gibson's fault. #

On one hand they hoped to benefit from the solid name and the respect that Flatiron has generated over the years.

Short term thinking. #They are tying "Gibson" to "Flatiron" while releasing less than top-of-the-line products under that name. #

Right now the name "Flatiron" means a mandolin that is basically the same as a factory "Gibson" with a different logo on the headstock. #

When the cheaper import Flatirons soon start to dilute the pool of "real" Flatirons does Gibson want these $800 wonders to be condsidered "same as a Gibson"?

AllenHopkins was right Flatirons will lose luster in the eyes of all but the kind of folks who know mandolins like those who are on this message board. #IMO

Just wait till they start bringing those mandolins in with "Gibson" on the peghead.

Yeah, I know. "Gibson will never put their name on an imported product." But the fact is they do it all the time now.

[12 fret]

[QUOTE] Right now the name "Flatiron" means a mandolin that is basically the same as a factory "Gibson" with a different logo on the headstock.

I think this is backwards. It was Flatiron, not Gibson, that truly revived the idea of a quality American mandolin at a marketable price. Had there not been a Flatiron, Gibson would either be out of the mandolin business by now or would be making far inferior products. Its possible to say that a Gibson is a Flatiron with a different name on the headstock.

[bradeinhorn]

Just to clarify things a bit - it is not clear anyone has been tricked yet!

Judging by the bidding history, i am pretty confident that the seller is linked into the current high bid. I have been watching the last few flatiron festivals, and also, what i say applies to almost all ebay auctions. the reserve is NEVER reached on something like this in the first 12 hours for a 7 day auction, unless it is super low. what happens is this: the seller sees some initial bidder action (the last bid before the current high bidder was $500) and then gets an associate involved to put in a really high bid to drum up action and interest and attempt to start a bidding war. first the current high bidder put in 1100 so it would seem incremental, and then he put in a higher bid to get to the 1400 reserve. this type of thing happens a lot with scammers.

in contrast, in a valid/healthy ebay auction, high reserves, if hit, are hit in the final hours/minutes of the auction. it doesn't make sense to get the excitement and bidding up any earlier than that. anyone actually interested, would hold off until the end to get the lowest price and the fewest competitors.

I think what will happen (if it stays up) - and what would have happened regardless of our involvement - is that no one else will bid past $1400. buyers savy enough about mandolins to bid beyond this point will figure out what it is pretty easy.

Additionally, if this guy just listed this mandolin as what it is #- even if he just said it was a 2007 model - or gave the specific model number F-2, or showed a a picture of the label (which I have seen and clearly indicates epiphone and china) - there woud be no doubt that it is not the american made flatiron.

Gibson is not at fault!!! All this confusion is from a jerk trying to make a quick buck by being vague and dodging questions. If he wasn't aware of what it was when he bought it - which i highly doubt - he has had more than enough information given to him in the past day to let him know what it is. he absolutely ommitted relevent facts, and he alone is doing his best now to maintain confusion by not admitting and being clear about what he knows. To tie Gibson in at this point is unfair. #They have used purchased good will to market a (particularly well made and good sounding) under $1,000 F-5 mandolin. #In contrast, on the secondary market, this seller has been playing games to trick people into buying something for more than it is worth.

[12 fret]

[QUOTE] Gibson is not at fault!!!

Gibson certainly shares some responsibilty for current and future misrepresentations of the Flatirons. It may be inadvertent or unanticipated but they chose a marketing plan that almost insures this type of thing could happen. They could have done about a 100 things at no additional cost to them that would have clearly separated the Asian and American production in the eyes of a casual buyer but they chose not to. Nothing illegal or even unethical in their actions, just dumb and shortsighted. People have mentioned that the Epiphone name was used in the same way but keep in mind that when that occurred, 99% of transactions would be face to face in a brick and mortar dealer where you would clearly see the (then) Japan origin. An e-commerce market or Ebay is a different animal and they took minimal or no steps to protect buyers.

For contrast, check Abe Wechter's guitar site. He also brings in Asian imports similar to his US made models but goes to great lenghts on his website to allow buyers of new or used Wechters to easily identify the country of origin. Maybe Gibson will follow suit with the Flatirons but I sorta doubt it.

bradeinhorn, when you went to see this mandolin what did the guy say when you told him it is Chinese-made?

[bradeinhorn]

bradeinhorn, when you went to see this mandolin what did the guy say when you told him it is Chinese-made?
I did not see the one on ebay in person. I have seen this model in person, however. since I told the seller, he has ignored my emails. and to answer 12 fret - i'm not sure what you mean by:

"{Gibson} could have done about a 100 things at no additional cost to them that would have clearly separated the Asian and American production in the eyes of a casual buyer but they chose not to.

If you actually see one of these mandolins in person - or marketed correctly online - it is clear it is not an american made product.
1) there is a made in china sticker on it (illegal to remove when marketed at new retail).
2) the internal labels say EPIPHONE in huge letters - the largest font on the label - and as memory serves me, it says made in china on that as well. The gibson OAI is in very small lettering.
3) the price is apprx 1/3 of the least expensive american made Gibson F mandolin.
4) The model number is different from any Gibson mandolin in production or flatiron ever made.

All of this is beside the point. This seller, a secondary market participant has hidden all of this. The second it is in the hands of the first buyer, gibson is not liable for that buyer's actions with it regarding resale. period. I think you guys who are blaming gibson are confusing the situation here. this is not an evil corporation situation, it is an evil individual situation. Had he listed it correctly, the value would be easy to figure out and that would be the end of it. People using ebay are savy enough to be able to Google a model number and find out a new retail price.

If you are just across the board #against the idea of companies being able to purchase other companies and use their tradenames, you're living in the wrong.......world. I know our mandolins are more emotional objects than most consumer products, but let's try to look at this objectively for a second.

So you consider this description by an authorized Gibson dealer to be A-OK?

Gibson Original Mandolins
The world's finest, played by all the greats.

Flatiron Festival F: a touch of flash
Featuring the same solid-wood construction seen in each of these mandolins, the Festival F provides an additional visual treat with the luxurious three-scroll design and mother-of-pearl fleur-de-lis headstock inlay. And the nickel plated hardware really sets off the scrolled headstock design. As I played it, I was amazed at the power and fullness of the tone. It immediately became an extension of my body, allowing every musical nuance to shine through.

[bradeinhorn]

neptune-what you are refering people to is a write up of the AMERICAN made Flatirons. It looks like an old press release/review of the gibson and flatiron lines in the late nineties or early 2000's.

here's a link (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/document?doc_id=82021&src=3SOSWXXA)

It mentions the performer a and single top bound festival F. If you click on either of those it will tell you that the product is discontinued.

Oh, and by the way. Gibson goes to great lengths to avoid mentioning anything about the instruments being made in China on the Epiphone web site. In the Epiphone history they mention that production was moved to Japan in 1970 and make a big deal about some limited edition Epi's being made in the US but no mention of China at all.

And where is FLATIRON on the Gibson web site? Plenty of opportunity there to avoid confusion but Gibson doesn't want to avoid confusion, they are depending on it.

[bradeinhorn]

ok...i'm sure they are depending on the flatiron festival 2 model to keep the gibson company afloat...

lest this get more off topic and develop into full out gibson bashing thread due to the actions of one unethical individual not related to the brand in anyway besides being a purchaser of their products - in the words of vanilla ice- "i'm outta here. word to your mother"

NO, it doesn't say the product has been discontinued. It says "We're sorry, there is no information for the requested product. Please continue shopping."

I have no problem with Gibson having instruments made overseas. Why do they make it so difficult for people to find out exactly which of the multitude of Gibson brands are imported to the US?

Gibson Guitar Corp.’s family of brands now includes Epiphone, Dobro, Maestro, Kramer, Steinberger, Tobias, Echoplex, Electar, Flatiron, Garrison, Gibson Baldwin Music Education, Slingerland, Valley Arts, Maestro, Oberheim, Sunshine Piano, Take Anywhere Technology, Baldwin, J&C Fischer, Chickering, Hamilton, and Wurlitzer.

Which are American-made?

[Bernie Daniel]

bradeinhorn: Gibson is not at fault!!! All this confusion is from a jerk trying to make a quick buck by being vague and dodging questions.

Bradeinhorn, I think you are being disingenuous here.

Of course no one blames Gibson for the actions of one Mr. "home spun" on the eBay auction. #That would be nonsense.

But Gibson is at fault for what I (and others) consider a stupid or even less than fully honest marketing policy. #That policy is causing confusion and "homespun" is taking advantage of it. #It is as simple as that. To that extent Gibson is "at fault".

If you want to defend Gibson that's fine with me - but by the same token you will have to live with the fact that I think their policy is ill-considered - again or should I say as usual? #

It is not like Gibson has a great track record in this arena. #You only have to look at their performance in mandolins and guitars the 1950's through the 1970's to realize that. QED.

[Le7beda]

It is not like Gibson has a great track record in this arena. You only have to look at their performance in mandolins and guitars the 1950's through the 1970's to realize that.
Who is currently at Gibson that you could pin the blame upon for that?

[12 fret]

[QUOTE] You only have to look at their performance in mandolins and guitars the 1950's through the 1970's to realize that.

Not to get off the Flatiron topic but if you have any extra '56 or '57 Les Pauls that you think are sub-par, I'd be glad to provide a home for them

[bradeinhorn]

I'm not being disingenuous at all. I'm being totally sincere.

I honestly don't feel it is gibson's policy that is causing confusion here. wouldn't you agree that even if just the model name was stated specifically on this auction (which it easily could be at this point) there would not be the same confusion? A buyer need simply put the model name into google and three online dealers will give a new price of 749-799 dollars. Additionally, they will find one dealer - janet davis - listing the full specs on the instrument including its chinese origin. the other two companies- guitar center and musicians friend- do not list made in china or any specs, however, they do not associate the gibson name with the flatron festival f-2 model on the product page. i'm sure a quick email to either company would give the same specs JD lists. a reasonable mandolin buyer would also be able to deduct that the instrument is not american made judging by its price point being much closer to pacrim mandolins than US produced ones.

furthermore, if a potential buyer knows what a flatiron mandolin is (or was, and recognizes the relatively small company for the quality that it is recognized for on places like the mandolin cafe, i'm sure he will be savy enough to do a bit of research into the current state of the company and find out as much as possible about the particular model before buying it.

the difference with our friend on ebay is that he is intentionally HIDING all the relevent product information that would let buyers know instantly what he is really selling.

as to why it's not on Gibson's website yet, i don't know. I'm sure all of their plethora of products don't hit the webpage as soon as they come on to the market. maybe they are unsure where to list it being in the middle of their line. I could see them not wanting to put it on the gibson page as it is not american made, however, in comparison to the epiphone mandolins, it is currently a huge step up from those. Perhaps a separate site is in development...i don't really care.

nice stable of gibsons by the way bernie http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Bernie Daniel]

Le7beda: Who is currently at Gibson that you could pin the blame upon for that?


http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif? #Why do we need someONE to blame -- I have no idea - I do not have a set of Gibson company rosters at hand -- actually.

The point was there is a corporate record of less than stellar thinking vis a vis marketing and image for Gibson. #The example mentioned is not the only one -- I could mention others. #

Of course, Gibson is not the lone ranger. #The point is most organizations make decisions all the time and not all of those decisions are particularly smart ones. #The decision to slack off on quality in order to maximize profits in that '50' - 70's period by Gibson was but one example.

The current "Flatiron thing" sure looks to me to be another less stellar idea. #In fact on the whole it seems downright STUPID #-- but that is my opinion.

They might sell a few Flatirons -- great for the short term -- Maybe in the longer term they diminsh the newly re-established image of "Gibson -- the best mandolins and so forth" #Good trade?

Hey it's their call it will not cause me any heartaches. #But that is my opinion.

[12 fret]

I think you lack the elements of the criminal mind. Of course full disclosure or a highly informed buyer would avoid the confusion. If all you know is "Flatiron Festival" and you google that, you wil likely get lots of info on American made as well as the China models. Remove a "made in china" sticker ( illegal? make me laugh) change or remove a label and you could fool enough potential buyers to make a nice profit.

As far as what Gibson could have done, here's two. Stamp "made in china" on the back of the headstock instead of using a sticker. Two, capitalize the "i" Flatiron to create a distinguishable characteristic not easily altered by an amateur counterfeiter. Consider what happens as real Flatirons appreciate in value. A little distressing and a few dollars in mods and you're in the vintage business

[Bernie Daniel]

bradeinhorn: Nice stable of gibsons by the way bernie #


Thanks actually I love Gibsons. # There are many really really outstanding builders of mandolins but I will probably never own anything but a Gibson (in a few months I hope I will own a 1937 F5 -- when I get that one I will be cured of MAS for life).

I just can't understand why they would mix the name Gibson up with Flatiron if they are going to abandon the luthier-made or at the minimum "made in the USA" policy for those mandolins. #Why associate "Gibson" with "made in China"? #Am I missing something here? -- is this not plain as mud?

Some marketing guy (team?) thought there was a dollar or two to be made off the Flatiron name and this is how they are trying to get it. #That is the part I think is stupid.

That's all.

I see where you are coming from. Mea Culpa. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[MikeEdgerton]

They really aren't associating Gibson with China any more than they did when they started making the Epiphone's out of the country. If the web had been around when the the Epiphone changeover was made you'd have had the same confusion. When the first Epi's went to Japan they came with a label that was identical to the Kalamazoo label, it even said Kalamazoo on it, then below it they had Made in Japan. I think they'd eliminate the confusion if they just put Made in China on the internal label.

[bradeinhorn]

i wish i had it in front of me...i am sure the internal label i saw included made in china on it. and it is a legal obligation to include the made in china sticker on new products.

and 12 fret-a reseller who tampers with these labels and does not disclose them is certainly acting with fraudulent criminal intent. especially when they are hiding other pertinent information like model numbers and year of production, etc...

[MikeEdgerton]

Any imported item has to have the country of origin on the item. The stick on "Made in China" label meets that requirement. I'd be happy to know it was on the internal label.

There is no legal requirement for a used product to have a Country of Origin label.

[12 fret]

I don't think the issue is resellers foisting them off as USA made but secondary and used markets. If you think that "made in china' sticker is going to survive past the first sale, you are more trusting than I. Take a look at Fenders on Ebay sometime and track how many have had the "made in Mexico" decal altered or removed. No doubt your mattress still has the "do not remove under penalty of law" tag attached but I yanked mine off and am still a free man.

[bradeinhorn]

There is no legal requirement for a used product to have a Country of Origin label.
no one said there was....

and 12 fret-no one said there was a penalty for removing the label or selling on the secondary market without it. the point was that - if these were removed and not mentioned - it is arguably a part of a plan to deceive the next buyer. clearlythere are other indicators of this plan in the initial listing

this is not some "in grandpa's attic" find. the mandolin was made sometime in the last 6 to 10 months. the seller knows what is and is purposely hiding it in hopes to reap the benefit of tricking someone.

Again-he is one bad person.

As other F2s come up, and more retailers begin selling this model or other new flatirons, the chance of confusion will be much less. also, most people who come to sell these on ebay will not have these deceptive intentions. They will represent them as overseas made gibson or epiphone flatiron mandolins, mention the exact model number and other relevent details that will clue people into exactly what they are buying.

I just don't think it is that big a cause for concern and nothing new. the only explanation I see is flatiron owners being upset about their instruments being undervalued or associated with a poorly made product. The only one who should be worrying about the quality of these new mandolins is Gibson. It's their money at stake. Flatiron owners should be happy to have a well built instrument that is not changing in tone or value and allow businessmen to make their decisions.

[12 fret]

Glad to hear there won't be any problems with identification. Of course, this thead, subtitled "Chinese or American" is now 5 pages, over 100 posts, and over 2000 views. Hard to think there's that much interest in a clearcut ID.

Imagine what would have happened if this same mandolin had been brought into the US via grey market , without Gibson participation, and either while Flatirons were still being produced or discontinued. Would Gibson have said "no problem"? or would they have sued the pants off the producer? What might have been the basis for damages Gibson would have sought? Maybe dilution of market by confusion, reduction in market value of the name, potential for counterfeiting, and I'm sure they would have thrown in something about devaluing the instruments from existing customers. Its their decision but if they are hoisted on their own petard over it, so be it.

[Le7beda]

The only one who should be worrying about the quality of these new mandolins is Gibson. It's their money at stake. Flatiron owners should be happy to have a well built instrument that is not changing in tone or value and allow businessmen to make their decisions.
Ain't that the truth.

[bradeinhorn]

i would assume that gibson, like any smart company, would most certainly want to stop counterfeiters. I don't think they are worried about being hoisted on their own petard here (nice phrase by the way). They have been doing this for years with tons of brands US and other that they have purchased.

In addition - this f-2 is an EXCELLENT value. As for it's competitors in the sub-1000 market, the one I played was far superior to the eastmans, kellys, boviers, and kentuckys i have played. I' have heard similar comments from others. As i stated in an earlier post, for those heart set on a new scroll mando for less than 1000 dollars, I would recommend this mandolin highly. Most people who buy it, will buy it new from reputable stores. I think it will do really well, and be a gateway mandolin into the rest of the gibson line.

[MikeEdgerton]

There is no legal requirement for a used product to have a Country of Origin label.
That wasn't even being discussed, thanks.

[fatt-dad]

I'm still mad that the name Flatiron has been distilled.

Don't like the auction copy and figure that the guy knows exactly what's going on (prior to this discussion at the cafe).

I'm going on vacation! Figure this'll be on page 10 or so when I return.

f-d

[Bernie Daniel]

MikeEdgerton: #I think they'd eliminate the confusion if they just put Made in China on the internal label.

Agreed. #In fact I was in the Guitar Center (Cincinnati)today and in the acoustic room they had a new Eastman and several new Epiphones. #The Epiphones all had "Made in China" on the INSIDE label -- as you suggest. #Why wouldn't they do the same on the Flatirons?

Aside: #The Epiphones looked and sounded quite decent but they were not show stoppers - the Eastman was a little better I thought - but comparable -- but I was really impressed with the quality of its workmanship. #But the best import there that day (quality/$) was a Washburn -- IMO.

[bradeinhorn]

has anyone confirmed the label yet?

Mike, this thread is about a used mandolin.

You said: "Any imported item has to have the country of origin on the item. The stick on "Made in China" label meets that requirement. I'd be happy to know it was on the internal label."

All I did was point out that your statement was not entirely correct. It was indeed being discussed, YOU brought it up. Sorry if my correction upset you.

Interesting how the Flatiron brand parallels the Kentucky brand.

The best Kentuckys were made in Japan. Then production moved to Korea. Then production moved to China. A lot of people who have Kentucky mandolins aren't aware that there were three different sources.

The best Flatirons were made in Montana. Then production moved to Tennessee. Then production moved to China. At this point there aren't many people who know Flatirons are being made in China. Anyone who buys from an on-line dealer like Musician's Friend, who does not typically mention that a product is imported, might be surprised to find out his new Flatiron was Made in China. This marketplace confusion is not unintentional.

[12 fret]

The labels are important in the case of a new instrument but internal or external labels are easily removed if there is an intent to deceive. I think what really surprises me about this instrument is that it is a pretty good replica, if not quite a reproduction, of a recently produced model. Thinking back, most of the re-branding for Asian production in the past involved release of new designs under an old name. Original Japanese Epiphones had no features in common with the US made models other than name. Can't actually think of a manufacturer bringing in close replicas other than Fender. As an aside, I do have a Sigma SM-30 2 point snakehead from the early 70's and it still has the "Japan" sticker on the back of the headstock.

[mythicfish]

"As an aside, I do have a Sigma SM-30 2 point snakehead from the early 70's and it still has the "Japan" sticker on the back of the headstock. "

Tell me about it ... I had an early KM-180S. Nobody knows adhesives like the Japanese.

Curt

[laddy jota]

I have enjoyed this thread immensely. I have always heard that bluegrass players (not all but most of us are) were a highly ethical lot compared to other musical types, and this indicates there is some truth to that stereotype. Here is some food for thought (possibly better placed in a separate topic but included here because this topic inspired it). Who was it who made the first copy of a Gibson F-5 anyway? Did they feel any guilt? Gibson battled the Les Paul copiers in court over that classic form but the F-5 has been reproduced without restraint. Of course some are very good. I have never heard of any outrage over the infringement of the F-5 form. I was reminded of an article in the classic journal called "Mandolin Notebook" from July 1978 in which Mike Holmes interviewed a man named Wayne Henderson who copied F-5's right down to the "The Gibson" MOP script on the headstocks and labels inside. Mr. Henderson said, "as far as putting the Gibson name on there, if it is not on there it just destroys the art form. It just don't look right." To distinguish his copies from the real thing, he said he, "made little marks and things on the inside" (apparently so that [he]could tell the difference. Perhaps the eBay seller is trying to preserve the art [sic] form. ps. I still call it a craft.

[Le7beda]

has anyone confirmed the label yet?
OK, here's where I hop from the fence of indifference regarding Gibson's current marketing measures. If Gibson were to allow all of their dealers the ability to feature photos of new product on the internet, the questions and confusion surrounding this label (not to mention the eBay broo-ha-ha) might very well be a moot point. At least one reputable dealer would have a clear shot of the label on the internet by now.

[Steve L]

I was reminded of an article in the classic journal called "Mandolin Notebook" from July 1978 in which Mike Holmes interviewed a man named Wayne Henderson who copied F-5's right down to the "The Gibson" MOP script on the headstocks and labels inside. Mr. Henderson said, "as far as putting the Gibson name on there, if it is not on there it just destroys the art form. It just don't look right." To distinguish his copies from the real thing, he said he, "made little marks and things on the inside" (apparently so that [he]could tell the difference.
[QUOTE]

Mr. Henderson is welcome to come by my yard and fertilize the roses with this train of thought.

[bradeinhorn]

has anyone confirmed the label yet?
OK, here's where I hop from the fence of indifference regarding Gibson's current marketing measures. #If Gibson were to allow all of their dealers the ability to feature photos of new product on the internet, the questions and confusion surrounding this label (not to mention the eBay broo-ha-ha) might very well be a moot point. #At least one reputable dealer would have a clear shot of the label on the internet by now.
not sure that is the case. there are only three dealers i can find easily on line with this model. two are HUGE retailers with thousands and thousands of products (GC andMF). For the vast majority of their instruments they have 1 stock body shot. they likely dont have the time or space to show multiple angles of everything nor list full specs on brand new products instantly. the other smallish dealer that has it - janet davis - makes the country of origin clear. i don't think anyone is tryng to hide anything. and again, the price point being so much lower than american made f-5 mandolins or any used American Flatiron F-5 on the market is enough alone to halt any confusion.

Additionally these major retailers will clearly label the products made in china and have very fair return policies as well if anyone is somehow buying under the impression it is not an import.

[MikeEdgerton]

I think you'll find the Gibson court battle was over the headstock shape not the body shape.

Janet Davis, FQMS and Guitar Center/Musician's Friend are the only dealers allowed to show the Flatiron instruments on the web. If more were allowed you probably would have found more.

[bradeinhorn]

Janet Davis, FQMS and Guitar Center/Musician's Friend are the only dealers allowed to show the Flatiron instruments on the web. If more were allowed you probably would have found more.
what are you getting at?

If Gibson were to allow all of their dealers the ability to feature photos of new product on the internet, the questions and confusion surrounding this label (not to mention the eBay broo-ha-ha) might very well be a moot point. At least one reputable dealer would have a clear shot of the label on the internet by now.

[bradeinhorn]

and if my wife had wheels...

[Le7beda]

and if my wife had wheels...
...you'd remember what the label said? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[12 fret]

I think this thread is not about what a dealer is going to do with a new item. Whether dealers show labels or not isn't the point. I expect dealers to disclose what they are and where they are from. My argument is that in the used and secondary market, where the controls do not apply, some people, such as our esteemed Ebay seller, will possibly perform a labelectomy in hopes of foisting these off as US made. They are superficially close enough copies to make it work. A few changes, a little distressing, and you could double your investment and probably fool 65% of potential buyers. Cafe members represent the top 10 or 15% in terms of mandolin/brand knowledge but there are far more people out there that would not be aware of the changes and could be taken in pretty convincingly.

[Jim Broyles]

If Gibson were to allow all of their dealers the ability to feature photos of new product on the internet, the questions and confusion surrounding this label (not to mention the eBay broo-ha-ha) might very well be a moot point. At least one reputable dealer would have a clear shot of the label on the internet by now.
I don't know if what you say is accurate or not, but this is how the mandolin is advertised at Janet Davis:

·Solid spruce top
·Solid highly flamed maple back
·Superior proprietary tone bar bracing
·Scooped fingerboard
·Fleur de lis peghead inlay
·Cremona inspired color with thin poly finish
·"The Flatiron" pearl logo on the peghead
·"The Flatiron" on tailpiece
·Nickel hardware
·WBW bound top, back and peghead.
·White pearl acrylic tuning buttons
·Pearl dot fingerboard
·Adjustable bridge
·Bound pickguard
Made in China

Emphasis mine.

Why do they have to post a shot of the label, when the ad copy clearly states the origin of the instrument? The idea that somehow Gibson and its dealers are conspiring to keep images of a label off the internet seems far fetched to me and the implication that the dealers you mention are not reputable because they have not posted such an image, is a cheap shot in my opinion.

[Jim Broyles]

Just to clarify, I believe the eBay seller in this thread knows exactly what he has and is not fully disclosing that information in order to maximize his profit. The price is already almost twice what a new one with a warranty would sell for, so the buyer will be overpaying unless they can be informed beforehand. Furthermore, I do not believe Gibson to be culpable in any way for the confusion in this case.

[bradeinhorn]

The idea that somehow Gibson and its dealers are conspiring to keep images of a label off the internet seems far fetched to me and the implication that the dealers #you mention are not reputable because they have not posted such an image, is a cheap shot in my opinion.
thanks.

there are tons of copies of all kinds of things on ebay all the time: clothing, furniture, jewelry, etc. the authenticity of many of these items is much harder to spot than this instrument. before spending well over a thousand dollars on the thing you're buying, wouldn't you do a bit of inspection, what with the ease of the internet?

Even in a completely innocent situation (where the seller didn't word things ambiguously and suggest the mandolin was perhaps US made, and not disclose that he has been told by several people of the true origin....), this instrument has enough differences from US made Flatiron Festivals that warrants at least a cursory search and inspection.

Have you ever sold anything on ebay? You get dozens of messages from "experts" telling you that what you have is junk, trying to get you to warn off bidders so they can steal your item with a low bid.

This guy probably has the same opinion of all the people who have been hammering him with messages that some on this forum have of him.

[Meadowview]

I have pictures of the label inside "The Flatiron" mandolin, but can't figure out how to post them

Blind faith is such a wonderful thing.

[Bill Snyder]

I have pictures of the label inside "The Flatiron" mandolin, but can't figure out how to post them
If the pictures are stored on your computer click http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/Skin/Default/images/t_reply.gif and go down to the Browse button and find the picture on your computer. Then hit Add Reply.

[Jim Broyles]

Have you ever sold anything on ebay? You get dozens of messages from "experts" telling you that what you have is junk, trying to get you to warn off bidders so they can steal your item with a low bid.

This guy probably has the same opinion of all the people who have been hammering him with messages that some on this forum have of him.
Yes, I have sold dozens of things on eBay and I've always listed them as honestly as I could, provided pictures of any flaws and posted plenty of pictures. I have never had any emails such as what you have described. If you have, perhaps you've been selling junk at high prices. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif Seriously, I never had any such communication, and my feedback rating is 321, 100% positive, with 65 as a seller.
That guy, if selling a Chinese Flatiron, and the consensus here is that he is, is being disingenuous with his model name - "F Festival," because the name for the China-made Flatiron F style is the F2, and it is clear on the label, if I recall correctly from a previous thread.

[Jim Broyles]

Blind faith is such a wonderful thing.
Blind ignorance is a contemptible thing.

[acousticphd]

they might make the imports a little more distinguishable than a peel off made in China sticker.



When the first Epi's went to Japan they came with a label that was identical to the Kalamazoo label, it even said Kalamazoo on it, then below it they had Made in Japan. I think they'd eliminate the confusion if they just put Made in China on the internal label.


Over the course of 20 years or so, I can't clearly remember seeing an import line (eg, Epiphone, or Sigma, or Fender Squire. etc) by a venerable parent company where the country of mfr was imprinted on the logo or label. I'm sure there are notable exceptions, but the usual thing is the little "Made in Korea" or "Made in China" gold and black sticker on the back of the headstock. Pick up any modern Epiphone or Fender Squre and the sticker is the only clear indication. The sticker can stick for a good long time if it isn't removed intentionally.

[Le7beda]

Why do they have to post a shot of the label, when the ad copy clearly states the origin of the instrument?
Brad asked if anyone could "confirm" what was written on the label (check the thread). And confirmation usually takes a photo (or in hand -- but then everyone would ask that person to post a photo anyway). I wasn't implying that any dealer not posting a clear photo of the label was disreputable. I assume all of them have to be reputable to keep a Gibson dealership. I only wish all of them (not just three) were allowed to list/picture their stock online.

And if they were, we'd have a better chance of avoiding a thread like this -- which has turned into a drag. We're all here looking for information and there's only three dealers (one with decent photos) that are "allowed" to distribute that info online.

And, yes, we all know where it was made.

[Jim Broyles]

Yes, I was aware of what Brad asked. My point is in response to the poster who was not you, who said that at least one reputable dealer would have posted a shot of the label. This may not imply disreputability on the parts of the three dealers allowed to post pictures of the mandolin, and BTW, I wouldn't mind confirmation of this allegation, but the inference is not a stretch. My question is still, "Why?" There is no attempt to deceive on the dealers' parts, and they are not responsible for what some one lists on an auction site. I think avoiding confusion about the labels is on the buyers, not the sellers. The Montana Flatiron enthusiasts may not like it, but the decision is Gibson's and at least they named the model F2, which is fairly distinguishable if the mandolin has F holes, is it not? Caveat emptor and all that.

[Bernie Daniel]

Neptune: Have you ever sold anything on ebay? You get dozens of messages from "experts" telling you that what you have is junk, trying to get you to warn off bidders so they can steal your item with a low bid.

Neptune, I have sold a number of things including mandolins and guitars on eBay (I have a 100% favorable comments rating) and I have never had this happen to me -- but I sure it does happen.

[woodwizard]

Just got an email from home-spun saying he bought it in Nashville from Gibson. In regard to my question to him about it's history.

[bradeinhorn]

i've been emailing with him too...if he doesn't change this listing he is a real ......

[Jim Broyles]

Just got an email from home-spun saying he bought it in Nashville from Gibson. In regard to my question to him about it's history.
In my opinion, this is not true.

So now Gibson doesn't sell their own products? Come on. You guys are really pushing it now.

If he bought it at the Showcase he paid $1,332 for it.

[MikeEdgerton]

If he bought it at the showcase it would have been sold at list price. What is the list price?

OK, list is indeed 1332.00 + tax, if in fact he bought it there. If the Showcase sells for less than list price I've never seen it. I came real close to buying a guitar there years ago. I decided to wait until the next day and checked the prices online that night in my hotel room. The next day they did offer to make up the difference in merchandise but they wouldn't sell for less than the list.

[bradeinhorn]

he told me he paid apprx $900 with the case from a store. also claims he doesn't know if it was new or not...(i mean come on -what kind of store would not make that obvious). I've never seen someone repeteadly respond so vaguely to straight forward questions in my life...

[MikeEdgerton]

Hmmm, it looks like his story has changed then.

[bradeinhorn]

he also claims to have seen these flatirons in production in nashville 2 years ago...

[Kevin K]

So the showcase will not sell below list? I didn't know that.

[MikeEdgerton]

Unless that policy has changed and I doubt it would. No manufacturer wants to compete with their dealers. It's bad business.

Now, with that said I was offered a second (I know Big Joe says they never sold seconds but I was there). It was a Dobro Hounddog that had the headstock label burned a little off center. When I checked Elderly that night they had the same second cheaper (must have been a batch of bad necks or something). Call it B stock, whatever. It was offered to me at less than list. That was 4 or 5 years ago.

[12 fret]

So.... Let's review.

Seller says he bought it somewhere at a store that did not tell him if it was new or used and paid about $900 for it. So he decides to sell on Ebay and puts a reserve on it over 50% higher than he paid the dealer. And of course, since he bought it, played in a band, he's not sure if its new or used but we do know all the labels fell out or off. Is that about it? Sounds legit to me.

[bradeinhorn]

he's talked me and others in circles here. i officially give up. if in the case the high bidder is actually a legit individual, which i highly doubt, I will do my best to warn them of what they are buying.

we aren't totally clear on the internal label situation, though all retailers I have talked to agree there would have been an external made in china label on the mandolin when sold new. The chances that he bought it used when the serial number seems to indicate it was made the month he bought it, is very slim. Therefore, it either fell off or he intentionally removed it for resale. I think all would agree the latter situation is much more likely. As someone mentioned earlier, these stickers don't come off without more than a little help.

Either way, the seller has enough information in his hands now to be clear in the listing. the fact that he isn't proves how shady he is.

[12 fret]

I would urge some caution as far as notifying the buyer. I see people pay way too much for stuff on Ebay all the time but consider that to be solely a matter between seller and bidders.

[Big Joe]

I don't know when he purchased this mandolin, but if it has been before about May of this year it would be made in the USA. The new Chinese Flatirons are pretty new. I played my first one about a week ago. It was pretty impressive for the 800 MAP price they sell at in the Showcase in Nashville.

The presence or lack of label really means nothing. They are only held in place by a little glue or two sided tape. The Festival F would be a Montana or Nashville designation. They do not use that on the Chinese models that I am aware of.

In any case, it is a used mandolin and it is what it is. I don't see any indication of anyone doing anything to decieve or mislead anyone. He is selling a used mandolin that says Flatiron. That seems to be the only claim he makes and that is a true claim. He may not have any idea where it was made. In any case, just ask when he bought it. Once you have that you may well know whether it is Chinese or USA. Simple enough. Certainly not enough to generate seven pages of speculation. Of course, I sometimes forget that is what makes the cafe turn http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif .

[Jim Broyles]

Joe, I would agree with your post if we were only talking about his listing, although I think the Q&A is a little fishy, but the information which bradeinhorn has provided regarding communication with the seller doesn't look real legitimate, IMO.

[MikeEdgerton]

That serial number is the same as an Epiphone serial number is it not? It doesn't look like the serial number in my Gibson or my Montana Flatiron. I'd be hard pressed to call it anything but an import no matter when he bought it.

[delsbrother]

Big Joe, can you tell anything simply by looking at the auction's pictures? Earlier in the thread there were posts pointing out things that made the instrument "obviously Chinese-made." Is this true? And do you recognize the serial number given as proof of origin one way or another?

[Bill Snyder]

I contacted the seller and asked if he could provide pictures of the interior label. This is his email reply verbatum:
"we tried photographing it but could not get the camera close enough nor thru the small f hole but here is what it reads "The Flatiron sytle F-Festival, number 07060011, gibson original acoustical instrument". nothing m ore."

[Big Joe]

The photo is not enough to determine the place of manufacture. If the label says Festival F it is not chinese period. Whether it is Nashville or Montana can most easily be determined by looking in the end pin to determine if there are any bolts in the neck joint. If there are, it is likely made in Montana. If there are not, then it is a Nashville product.

The date of purchase would be a good indication also. But with the description I've seen it is as represented. Again, I have not read every post in this thread, but it is hard to tell much by a photo.

[cooper4205]

would a US-made Flatiron have a serial no. that starts with DW like the one on eBay?

[bradeinhorn]

joe-

with all due respect, this is a chinese made flatiron. i am sure of it. besides the serial, it has all the specs of the new chinese flatirons i have played. and for the record, the model is called the flatiron "festival f-2" - see janet davis's site and others selling it like musician's friend and guitar center.

the seller purchased it in june of '07 (is it possible the 0706 represents that year and month respectively as production date), likely new and for a price much resembling the retail price of the dealer's mentioned. he then listed it on ebay without the F-2 distinction and that, amongst other vague responses he's given have made the situation more fuzzy.

I'm sure the truth of all of this will be revealed eventually. From what I have seen and what has been described I think there may be some inconsistencies in the internal labeling.

[bradeinhorn]

one label (this is not from the ebay listing) #- for the record - this is TOTALLY different from the one i played at grey fox - also doesn't seem to say festival on it so it's possible there are three different labels:

[bradeinhorn]

another angle

[bradeinhorn]

also

[bradeinhorn]

very vague label, huh? one final note- jim at janet davis gave me this as a serial number for the one he has - #6605395 - similar to this one but very different from the ebay number. i wish i could remember the grey fox vendor's name. anyone? they were the ones with the martins and gibsons for sale. pretty nearby the raffle tent. i think they were from a store in vermont.

[Big Joe]

The one on the e-bay sight is probably a Chinese made, but that is hard to tell for sure. The photo blorts the dimensions so spotting it as a fake is a bit harder than a photo that is not skewed. Second, the color is not like the Chinese ones I've seen. I saw the one at Cumberland Acoustics today and it is a bit closer to this one in appearance than the others I've seen. The serial number is not familiar to me so it could easily be what really determines it as a Chinese made. That can be easily determined by calling Gibson or the Showcase and asking.

I can tell you two things. First, I see no fraud on his sight. If he can sell his mandolin for more than he paid for it that is the free enterprise system at work. I think they can be bought new for about 800 if they are available. On the other hand, if he has someone willing to pay more (this was not the first bid, but bid no 8) and someone wishes to pay that for it then it is not fraud no matter where it was made. If this mandolin were made in Montana or Nashville it would be a real bargain at that price. I doubt any of you would be so excited to tell him he was selling it too cheap.

Second, this mandolin is a quality product for the price if it is Chinese. I was more than mildly impressed with the examples I saw for the money. No, they would not match my DMM, but then you could buy 200 of these for less than a single DMM. It is a good value for an intermediate mandolin.

I have no interest in what happens with Gibson, but let's not get bent out of shape. It is advertised as a used mandolin and the guy says he does not know where it was made. Whether he knows or not is not important. He certainly is not making any claims that it was made in the USA and his statements would lead one to bid based on the lowest common denominator, not the highest.

Where ever it was made I wish him luck at selling it and I hope the new buyer gets as much enjoyment from this mandolin as I got from my first mandolin (a pac rim job) that I played for a few years before I could afford and American Made mandolin. I then went from made in the USA to another pac rim (Gilchrist) before going back to made in the USA. Not all pac rim mandolins are bad http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif .

[bradeinhorn]

one more thing from paul price who was nice enough to send those pictures (this is regarding the pictured mandolin):

"The serial number on the label inside the mandolin does not have the prefix of "DW", however it is on the warrenty card, which by the way is from Epiphone."

So, that should explain the missing DW and the epiphone label I saw.

[jefflester]

How long has the "Gibson Original Acoustic Instruments" name been used?

[Bill Snyder]

#No, they would not match my DMM, but then you could buy 200 of these for less than a single DMM. #It is a good value for an intermediate mandolin.
Joe 200 mandolins at $800 is $160,000.00 and 200 mandolins at $1,400 is $280,000.00. I know Gibson is proud of the DMM but I believe that is a bit much by a factor of 10 or so.

[bradeinhorn]

no-with the addition of the new flatiron line they upped the prices:D

[Big Joe]

Oh well....at my age I don't have to worry about math...that's what grandkids are for. They must have been studying a "new" math http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif . I've been caught red handed being stupid. Would you believe this is not the first time?

[bradeinhorn]

sheesh...another bidder. what a shame.

[BlueMountain]

I purchased one of these Flatiron Festival F2s on eBay BEFORE I was able to find out anything about them other than the rumors on here back in April (but I couldn't find them again), and I sold it on eBay a week later. This was back in June. It was simply listed as a Flatiron F2. NOW I can find ads on Janet Davis and Musician's Friend, but I couldn't find anything at the time on the web, not even an announcement from Gibson. Turned out I bought it and sold it for around the price they are selling for and for much less than the "list price" of $1332. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....&ih=006 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=160132336642&ssPageName=STRK:MESO:IT&ih=006)

Anyway, having owned one, I can tell you this:
The one I played had NOTHING on it to indicate that it was made in China, even though I searched with a mirror. The serial number at that time, 6605382, didn't tell me it was made in China. The label reads: “The Flatiron Model / F2 / 6605382 / Gibson Original Acoustic Instruments.” Nothing else. There is no Made in China sticker on the back of the neck. No place of manufacture.

Playing? The one I had was very attractive (see the photos on the ad), and the sunburst was sort of pinkish (I've seen sunrises like that). It played MUCH better than any of the recent Epiphones I've played. It's definitely worth $800. Very pleasing tone and quite a nice chop to it. I don't think you'll find a better new F style for $800. I've only played about half a dozen Eastmans, but it seemed to me that it was as good as they were. That is to say, nice tone, but not a "tone monster." Nice tone, but not especially loud, not dominating or quivering with excitement or anything. Nothing to be ashamed of, though, and I'm sure a better player than me would be able to bring a lot more out of it. I've played some 60s Gibsons that sounded like blocks of wood. This is a lot better. On the other hand, I've played older Flatirons that were great mandolins. This isn't. I sold it because I have five mandolins that sound a lot better, some of which I bought used for less than what these sell for, and all luthier-made. Fun to play it, though.

As they say, Caveat Emptor. Whoever is bidding $1750 for this rather than grabbing that Kentucky 1500 selling for $1500 is not paying attention. But I'd be pretty disappointed to overpay by a grand. However, the ad is not fraudulent, even though I wrote the seller and explained things to him.

[MikeEdgerton]

even though I wrote the seller and explained things to him.

You and a few dozen others http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

There's always the chance the bidders think this is one of the American-made prototypes. I've never seen any confirmation that there actually were American-made prototypes but the prototypes had to be made somewhere.

If it doesn't say "Made in elsewhere" it can't be imported, right?

[MikeEdgerton]

The new Flatiron's have a sticker on the back of the headstock that says Made in China. They are easily removed. This one has a serial number that is in the same format as the Epiphone mandolins. It begins with a DW.

[bradeinhorn]

The new Flatiron's have a sticker on the back of the headstock that says Made in China. They are easily removed. This one has a serial number that is in the same format as the Epiphone mandolins. It begins with a DW.
exactly. i really dont think there are any doubts as to the origins of the current ebay listing. as to blue mountain's post, we can't really assume just because his didn't have the m.i.c. sticker that none of them do. he also bought his used. both dealers i've contacted assured me that this model when new in fact has such a sticker. also, the ones with similar serial numbers - 66xxxx had the dw on the warranty card.

the difference with the current seller is that he claims to have no information regarding origin. even if you are among the pool of people who are still on the fence, i think it would be reasonable and fair, in the interest of full disclosure to list the information regarding the serial number as an indicator of place of manufacture.

and as to american prototypes - i don't think we've seen any sort of proof of anything like that existing. not sure how the instrument manufacturing business works, however, i do know that in other manufacturing industries, like the garment industry, samples are made overseas if that's where production is going to happen.

[bradeinhorn]

well, the auction is over with a bidder paying 1000 dollars more than the going new market retail price....hopefully he will find out the truth before paying.

[cooper4205]

well, the auction is over with a bidder paying 1000 dollars more than the going new market retail price....hopefully he will find out the truth before paying.
wow, the person that won that auction could've gotten an American-made Flatiron A5 and still had a few hundred to spare for that price.

[bradeinhorn]

he could have bought the a-5 performer i have for sale AND a new calton case for it!

[mythicfish]

"well, the auction is over..."

And not a page too soon. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Curt

[MikeEdgerton]

I seriously doubt the winner will be paying for it. Unfortunately when the seller sends the second chance offer to the next highest bidder thre will be nobody to help that guy.

[bradeinhorn]

anyone know if the next bidder is anonymous to seller?

[johnl]

I'd been hoping a new Epiphone 'Masterbilt' mandolin would appear, since the Epi Masterbilt guitars have been pretty well received (and they've already made a Masterbilt banjo and two ukes as well). With the Epi-style serial number and other Epi-related items, I'm thinking these new Flatirons were originally going to be the Epiphone Masterbilt mandolin; but Gibson opted to go in this direction instead (for whatever reason). Regardless, it will be interesting to see how well they sell (in the retail world, I mean; not auction-land).

[bradeinhorn]

from the high biidder after my email alerting him to the truth:

"Thanks...expected a Montana made item, will advise of outcome"

justice served for now....
Brad

[MikeEdgerton]

No kidding, does he know they made them in Nashville as well?

[Bernie Daniel]

The thing sold for nearly $1800.

Too bad -- I sent the buyer "tool-spot" a note about his bargin.

[bradeinhorn]

yeah bernie- look up a few posts in the thread. the buyer is not taking it. i wonder how many emails he got from us folk.

[Bernie Daniel]

Dun ta dun ta dunnn

Law and order brought to you by the THE MANDOLIN CAFE!

In addition to all that....Faster than a speeding bullet, able to leap tall building in a single bound...for truth, justice and the american way (or put your own country in there)

and we can restring you mando....

[Big Joe]

This certainly is not the first time someone has overpaid for an item on e-bay. No matter what we think, someone thought it was worth 1800 or whatever the selling price was. Why should we care? At the moment there are two happy people...the guy who bought the mandolin and the guy who sold it. They are the only ones who matter. It is the free market system and in this case the seller won. Maybe you should put yours on e-bay and see if you can be so lucky. The seller never misrepresented it, only said it was a used Flatiron. No lie there. Anything you buy on e-bay you need to be very careful to do your research and know what you are buying. The buyer had the same opportunity as anyone else to research this instrument and chose what he/she wished to bid. I just really don't care. Thank you and just my opinion.

[cooper4205]

yea, he did misrepresent it Joe. he ommitted the fact it was an import and played dumb to try and maximize his profit. the guy that bought it thought he was getting one that was a Montana vintage. how else would you explain someone paying almost $1,000 more than what I new one could be had for right now- he thought he was getting a deal on a U.S. made one.

[Hal Loflin]

WOW JOE...I have read numerous post that you have made over the years and I have always seen you as a level headed, pretty fair guy. I am suprised at some of your statements.

1. Why should we care?

Because even though the seller might not have known when he listed the item he did after numerous emails sent to him by those here on the cafe that do care about all of the facts not being listed on this mandolin and he chose to not change the listing. The seller was even a little vague about where the mandolin came from. You can see from a post earlier that the buyer thought he was getting, and wanted, a Montana Flatiron and those of us that own, or have owned, Flatirons, as well as have seen the new made in China Flatirons, see that this is clearly not a Montana or Nashville Flatiron but the import model.

2. At the moment there are two happy people...

Seems like there is really only one...the seller. The buyer, as you said, did not do his research and is obviously not a frequent flyer here at the cafe or he would have been well aware. He is aware now and it appears that he did make a purchase based on what the item description said it was, not what it actually is. He probably feels like he has paid way too much for this mandolin and not bought what he thought he was getting...an empty feeling that I have had before.

3. The seller never misrepresented it.

I actually agree with you there but he was made aware by members of this forum. While working at Gibson would you have sold an instrument to someone if just prior to the sale you found out that it wasn't exactly what you had represented upfront. Only knowing you from your many fair post and defense of Gibson over the years, I would honestly assume that you would not follow through with the sale or at least let the buyer know that you had obtained information that had not been given upfront.

Even though we live in a "free enterprise" society, that doesn't make it right to be deceptive if you know more facts than one is representing.

Oh well...as you said at the end of your last post...Thank you and just my opinion.

I hope none of you guys end up in court over this.

The seller never once said this mandolin was made in Montana. He said he could not find any indication at all on the mandolin as to where it was made.

A bunch of ebay cops sent him emails claiming his mandolin was not what he said it was but none of those people saw that mandolin in person. They were all acting from assumptions.

Now you have interfered with the execution of a lawful contract.

The seller did not violate any Ebay rules or policies, however at least two posters on this topic DID violate ebay rules.

"Transaction Interference

Members are not permitted to email buyers in an open or completed transaction to warn them away from a seller or item. If you have a problem with a transaction, please use the feedback forum and review our Fraud Protection Program."

[MikeEdgerton]

Nobody is going to end up in court, eBay "might" suspend an account, but they rarely do. If they do suspend an account you can simply open another using your real name and the same credit card number. They do nothing to stop it. eBay operates to make money and they don't really like shutting anyone down. That's why eBay is currently facilitating the largest online fencing program for stolen goods in the world. This one is so far down on the eBay radar that I doubt they would do anything other than send out an automated e-mail response. Every day people lose many thousands of dollars buying cars and other really big ticket items that don't exist. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that at least one of the members here that might have alerted the buyer was an attorney. I honestly don't think that he felt any threat of litigation.

Why did you assume I expected ebay to take anyone to court? The seller could certainly bring suit for tortious interference against those who urged the buyer to breach the contract.

Ebay will lose money on this because the seller will file a non-paying bidder report and ebay will end up losing their commission. Ebay won't go to court but they may well suspend or revoke some accounts.

[mythicfish]

"Now you have interfered with the execution of a lawful contract."

And perhaps someone should "return the favor" by informing the seller of the names of those responsible.
Is there an extradition treaty in effect between eBay and the Mandolin Cafe. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Curt

[Steve Cantrell]

You cracked me up that time, Curt.

[cooper4205]

I hope none of you guys end up in court over this.

The seller never once said this mandolin was made in Montana. He said he could not find any indication at all on the mandolin as to where it was made.

A bunch of ebay cops sent him emails claiming his mandolin was not what he said it was but none of those people saw that mandolin in person. They were all acting from assumptions.

Now you have interfered with the execution of a lawful contract.

The seller did not violate any Ebay rules or policies, however at least two posters on this topic DID violate ebay rules.

"Transaction Interference

Members are not permitted to email buyers in an open or completed transaction to warn them away from a seller or item. If you have a problem with a transaction, please use the feedback forum and review our Fraud Protection Program."
for the record, I never contacted him. But why are you busting their chops? the seller is in the wrong, policy or no.

[MikeEdgerton]

Why did you assume I expected ebay to take anyone to court? The seller could certainly bring suit for tortious interference against those who urged the buyer to breach the contract.

Ebay will lose money on this because the seller will file a non-paying bidder report and ebay will end up losing their commission. Ebay won't go to court but they may well suspend or revoke some accounts.
Well actually you have a better chance of eBay taking you to court than the seller. The seller would have to have the information to bring the suit and pay the attorney. We're talking cross country here in several states. The discovery alone would eclipse the guys profit so many times over that nobody would ever do that. Again, argument for the sake of argument.

Curt, do me a favor and list those that you know have interfered. Keep in mind that you have to make some pretty big assumptions. I see one guy that says he got an e-mail response from the buyer. See any others?

[mythicfish]

"the seller is in the wrong, policy or no."

This is absolute rubbish!
Consider the following hypotherical situation:

You are at a festival or other such gathering and are negotiating the sale of an instrument when a third party walks up and says:
" Hey, I've got a newer model of that instrument that looks better, sounds better and I'll sell it to you cheaper"
Would folks be justified in calling you dishonest?

Curt

[bradeinhorn]

first off - #awesome post curt.

next - neptune - i was not acting off any "assumption" when i emailed the the seller to tell him what he had, or the buyer to tell him what he (thankfully) almost bought. It was clear to me from the pictures that seller posted that he did not have a US made Flatiron mandolin. Other FACTS, not assumptions, like the serial number, manufacturer code, not to mention the instruments specs, details, and other cosmetic features all pointed to the import model.

In any case - and I don't mean to get personal here - I have to question your ethics a little bit. Knowing what you know - if it was you in this situation, wouldn't you want people to come to your aid? You are defending a well informed seller who was just trying to make a quick buck out of pure TRICKERY! Whether he bought the item used or new (and i'm pretty sure he bought it new), don't you think a musical instrument store would be savvy enough to sell it for a little bit more than than HALF of what their customer sold it for used a few weeks later without warranty and with some cosmetic issues!? Don't you think that a business which probably likes to maximize their profits to the best of their ability would have just sold it on ebay themselves if they could legitimately market it and sell it the same way the ebay seller did?

With all the zillions of transactions ebay does, as mike mentioned, it is impossible for them to fully police what is going on, especially in grey areas like this where a dishonest indivual is trying to take advantage of this with a vague listing, and by playing dumb to the truth. In order to foster, the best safest and most well informed ebay community (particularly in the mandolin/string insturment subsector), I think it is totally legitimate for people like us to get involved in situations like this. One less d-bag on ebay...that's how I see it.

And finally, just so we're all clear, there is no claim for tortious intereference with a contract when the contract itself is based on fraud/misrepresentation/relevent ommision - rendering it illegal. In a court of law, any decent litigator would be able to build a case that this mandolin was clearly a new model import. He'd show the history of the flatiron company and possible propensity for confusion without certain key pieces of information. He'd then show the endless emails seller received, proving that he knew exactly what he had and what these clarifying pieces of information were. He'd then show the vague listing without any of this information revising it, and that would be about it.

B

[bradeinhorn]

"the seller is in the wrong, policy or no."

This is absolute rubbish!
Consider the following hypotherical situation:

You are at a festival or other such gathering and are negotiating the sale of an instrument when a third party walks up and says:
" Hey, I've got a newer model of that instrument that looks better, sounds better and I'll sell it to you cheaper"
Would folks be justified in calling you dishonest?

Curt
curt- you're hypothetical is totally flawed.

this is a correct version:


You are at a festival or other such gathering and are negotiating the sale of an instrument when a third party walks up and says:
"Hold on a second - that mandolin is not being fairly represented to you. Just so you're aware, it was not made in this country as earlier, and more valuable versions of the brand were, the correct model name is this, and it actually retails new for about half of what the seller is asking."

That is not dishonest - it is being helpful to someone who is about to be swindled.

[mythicfish]

Hey Brad ... what happened tomy "awsome post"?

Here are the hypothetical "facts" in the situation which I outlined:
The newer, better, cheaper mandolin which the third party offered hade been stolen from a van not five minutes ago.
No trickery on the part of the seller.

It's the buyer who is responsible for finding out the facts.
When you don't have - or can't get - the facts, you are always at a disadvantage
If someone says that your mother loves you ... Check it out

As for the "Good Samaratin" defence"

Q. What's the opposite of "good"?
A. Good intentions.

Curt

[bradeinhorn]

the awesome post was about your extradition thing.

as to this further flushing out of your hypothetical, you kind of lost me.

the picture you painted was the traditional interference with contract situation...it involves no misrepresentation or ommission.

additionally, in your example the third party is not a good samaritan but an interested seller (with other criminal issues of his own, apparently)....so again, i don't see the relevance.

[mythicfish]

I'm saying that there is a range of possibilities.
You just want to be "right".

Best of luck in the future
Curt

[bradeinhorn]

I'm saying that there is a range of possibilities.
You just want to be "right".

Best of luck in the future
Curt
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif ?

Brad, you violated ebay rules and US law and you think you are right. Nothing you can say can make you right.

[bradeinhorn]

ok...i guess you're right. someone please alert the authorities....

this is the most amazing thread ever.

[sgarrity]

Three cheers for Brad!!! Since when was being honest and decent not the "right" thing? The seller may not have intentionally mislead anyone but he conviently left out the country of origin.

[cooper4205]

Brad, you better get out of town quick. Ebay will be knocking on your door any minute http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif seriously, if I didn't know any better and got ripped off, I'd hope someone would give me a heads up about it.

[12 fret]

I'm wondering if this whole fiasco has changed anyone's opinion from their previous posts in the original threads on this topic?

[Jason Holmes]

I'm with you, Cooper. On one hand, rules are rules, and yes it is technically interference with another's transaction. On the other hand, I'd be really glad if someone interfered before I spent $1800 on an $800 mandolin because I didn't know any better. Thankfully I do know better.

[Bernie Daniel]

Amazing what a topic like this leads to.

Here is my take:

1) It is clearly an import Flatiron -- no question.

2) It is clearly worth considerably LESS than a Montana made Flatiron (say $1000 -- ballpark number)

3) The seller clearly knew this (if he did not know it at first he certainly did after about a dozen unsolicited emails from the Cafe).

4) After learning that he was selling a "used" $800 mandolin (and btw how could it be used? #you can hardly find new ones at this point in time) he refused to clairfy his auction and was ready and willing to bilk a buyer out of whatever he could get.

This seller is a guy to be defended? #Not by me.

Let's say you are in line at the grocery store and the person finshing up their payment inadvertantly leaves their credit card on the counter, you observe the next customer pick it up and instead of calling "hey you left your credit card" -- they slip it in their pocket instead. #Should you just let it go -- a lesson to be learn by the first person -- always keep track of your credit cards? #Or should you say something? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[MikeEdgerton]

Brad, I think you're an honorable guy. What you did was the right thing to do. By the way, he's older than 11 or 12 and younger than 20. That's my take.

[Big Joe]

A Johnson mandolin sold for $459.00. That is more than it is worth. Why didn't someone tell the buyer? Probably because no one cares about the Johnson and it does not drive emotional outbursts. I have seen lots of misrepresentation on e-bay and it is not unusual to pay more than what something is worth. I still don't believe the product was misrepresented. If the buyer is willing to pay that much, then it is worth that much to him. Why he would want that particular one rather than a different one is beyond me, but for some reason he did and was willing to pay that for it. My daddy always said a fair deal was when both parties said "yes". I don't see much has changed since he was around. While I applaud Brad for his desire to help someone, I did not see anyone ask for his help. Why was it any of his business? Why is it any of my business? Why is it any of any of our business? Oh well, I guess it was something to talk about in the heat of an unusual August. After twelve days over 100 degrees my brains may be fried anyway http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif .

[bradeinhorn]

joe-did you read above? the buyer is not buying it because he thought it was a montana made flatiron. it was not what he wanted and appreciated the info...for the record, i only told him what it was - if he still wanted it, he would have been free to buy it.

and also for the record, i missed the johnson auction, but had i saw it, i certainly would have said something to the buyer. as my posting track record indicates, i really have no emotional connection to flatiron mandolins. i have one for sale right now in fact. You'll note the origin is clearly stated. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[John Hill]

Instead of wasting time contacting the seller, eBay is the one to contact. I've let them know people were selling mandolins that weren't what they represented and they've either modified the listing or removed the listing. The sellers don't care who you are or what you think and will sell unless eBay pulls their listing.

[bradeinhorn]

ebay was contacted by a few of us, i'm sure. as mike pointed out however, they have neither the deisre or manpower to police everything like this and wil often side with the seller to make money. they care not for the intricacies of mandolin model numbers.

i thought in this case it might be reasonable to contact the seller, as he may not have been aware of the potential confusion he was causing. in fact, good natured sellers on ebay clarify their listings all the time in the interest of being fair and not causing problems after the sale.

[12 fret]

Well guys and gals, I'd advise you to NEVER read a desription of an Epiphone mandolin on Ebay. I'm guessing 40% or 50% of the ads will state "Made by Gibson" and omit any reference to Korea or China. Most don't sell for much but there's always the chance somebody will believe they are getting a USA made instrument.

[MikeEdgerton]

Instead of wasting time contacting the seller, eBay is the one to contact. I've let them know people were selling mandolins that weren't what they represented and they've either modified the listing or removed the listing. The sellers don't care who you are or what you think and will sell unless eBay pulls their listing.
John, I contacted eBay within hours of the auctions start (noted in a previous message in this thread). eBay doesn't kill any auction unless the account has been hijacked.

[MikeEdgerton]

10 pages, fatt-dad will be so proud when he gets back. It was the called shot, he'd said it would get here. I honestly doubted him.

[Jason Holmes]

Interesting example, the Epiphone. Is there any Epiphone instrument that's not made Asia? I was under the impression that they all came from there.

[MikeEdgerton]

They are now, they used to be made in the USA prior to about 1970.

Gruhn Article on the Epiphone Strand. (http://www.gruhn.com/articles/epistrand.html)

http://www.mandozine.com/instruments/images/strand.1937.jpeg

Mandozine article on the Epiphone Strand (http://www.mandozine.com/index.php/instruments/instrumentinfo/epiphone_strand_1937/)

[12 fret]

Ethics consistency test....

If you see a listing on Ebay for a Montana made Flatiron that the seller had mis-identified as an import and was offering it on a buy it now basis for $500, would you buy it and say nothing or would you contact the seller and advise they can get 3 times that for it?

[cooper4205]

Ethics consistency test....

If you see a listing on Ebay for a Montana made Flatiron that the seller had mis-identified as an import and was offering it on a buy it now basis for $500, would you buy it and say nothing or would you contact the seller and advise they can get 3 times that for it?
yep. I've let people know when they've had pre-Gibson Flatirons before when they've had them identified as Gibson made ones. usually the pre-Gibson ones will command more money.

[The Old Sarge]

Ethics consistency test....

If you see a listing on Ebay for a Montana made Flatiron that the seller had mis-identified as an import and was offering it on a buy it now basis for $500, would you buy it and say nothing or would you contact the seller and advise they can get 3 times that for it?
Some might say you have gone from preachin' to meddlin' with that question. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

This has been a most interesting thread. As I followed it one thought kept going through my head, there are sins of commission and sins of omission. I felt like the seller might have committed one of the latter.

[MikeEdgerton]

I regularly tell sellers that they have misidentified instruments either way. Most of the times they send a nice thank you message to either. There was a Gibson A with a pumpkin top on eBay this week listed as a 60's Gibson mandolin.

[12 fret]

OK, but the question is if the seller had listed that pumpkin top for a $199 buy it now, would you buy it or educate them?

[MikeEdgerton]

If it ever happens I'll let you know. I'd probably assume it was a scam and the account had been hijacked.

Honestly I never see those deals, I just hear about them. The majority of the eBay sellers are savvy enough these days to search closed auctions.

Let me try and put this into further perspective. I do believe that everyone has a price that will push them over the edge. Several years ago I found a wallet in New York City. It had ten one hundred dollar bills in it, and American Express card and a drivers license. The next morning a perfect stranger had a FedEx delivery to their house that had a wallet, ten one hundred dollar bills, an American Express card and a drivers license. I paid for the FedEx shipping. Our FedEx account was on the delivery, she tracked me down and called very thankful. If the wallet had twenty thousand in it I can't say what I would have done, and that is simply an honest response.

[Bernie Daniel]

Mike Edgerton: I regularly tell sellers that they have misidentified instruments either way. Most of the times they send a nice thank you message to either.

I do the same thing when I see it. #

There is or was (have not looked today) a nice old F2 for sale -- ID by the seller as "just as good today as it was in 1898 when it was made" #

I thought that this seller may have no clue so I sent him/her a note and advised him to look into Gibson F2 prices.

I suppose I could have interfered with someone getting a bargin or maybe the mandolin had some fatal flaw and the seller will have the last laugh.

This thread has been interesting and I will think more before getting involved in these transactions in the future.

In the case of this Flatiron though I'd do the same thing again exactly -- no question.

You never know where your next lesson for life will come from.

[12 fret]

Everybody is hedging on the question. Letting someone know their item is dated incorrectly or was from Nashville not Bozeman is not the question. If these items are on a pure auction, its probable that other will note that and bid accordingly.

What I'm asking is if you see a listing for a mandolin with a BUY IT NOW price a fraction of the value due to the seller not knowing what they have, do you buy it or advise them to pull the listing and re-list at the true market value?

[mythicfish]

Here's a side of this fiasco that hasn't been explored.
Whoever contacted the buyer also wanted all of us to know that he had done it. ,,, Why?
Folks may want to speculate either publicly or in private. I couldn't possibly comment.

Curt

[12 fret]

Huh?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Bernie Daniel]

12 fret: What I'm asking is if you see a listing for a mandolin with a BUY IT NOW price a fraction of the value due to the seller not knowing what they have, do you buy it or advise them to pull the listing and re-list at the true market value?


Yeah, say you are on Eastern time and you wake up at 4 a.m. with imsomnia and stumble down to the PC. #Some person on Pacific time has just posted a nice 1940's Gibson A50 in great shape with the case "that belonged to my father" and has no clue about its actual value because there is a "Buy It Now" for $300.

I doubt this would ever happen BUT if it did....what do you do? #

I honestly have no clue -- I'd like to have that probem sometime though.

I think what one SHOULD do is to go ahead and buy it and then maybe try to work out a fairer price with the seller after it is shipped to you?

Now you have the bargin mandolin safe and in your hands so the REAL test begins -- will you now send the seller some additional payment to "right things"? #Or not? #

Good question. #Keep everyone "honest".

[mythicfish]

"What I'm asking is if you see a listing for a mandolin with a BUY IT NOW price a fraction of the value due to the seller not knowing what they have, do you buy it or advise them to pull the listing and re-list at the true market value? "

Depends on whether you want to buy it or not.
We call that "cash register honesty"

Curt

[12 fret]

[QUOTE] I think what one SHOULD do is to go ahead and buy it and then maybe try to work out a fairer price with the seller after it is shipped to you?

So you're saying that AFTER you buy it and AFTER you have it in hand you would only then would you re-contact the seller , who is perfectly happy with their $300 , and you would try to give them more money? Really???

[mythicfish]

<Comment removed for violating board posting guidelines>

[Scott Tichenor]

This is turning into more of an argument than discussion. There has been some fairly negative fallout behind the scenes here that's unfortunate but occurs when everyone is trying to win an argument and prove a point that can't be proven. There's a fine art of knowing when to walk away from a conversation online, and clearly, some of you don't understand that concept. If you can't discuss this without wading into territory outside of what's appropriate for this forum then please move on.

[bradeinhorn]

(this was written simultaneously with scott's last post)
12 fret- i think this is a silly discussion. it seems to me that you are just trying to trip people up and point out hypocrisy for only acting ethically when it is the buyer who needs protection (or information) and not the seller.

i will say that in this situation - I would not say anything to the buyer, and if it was something that I wanted to buy, I would not hesitate and go right ahead and buy it.

As a seller of a good - as long as you adequately represent it for what it is - you should be able to set a price for the good as high or as low as you like. When you have the item in your possession and you wish to sell it, it is on you to adequately authenticate, point out any possible flaws, damage, or other factors that would lessen or raise the value. We live in a world where it is very easy to find out what you have before you sell it. before listing it, it is very easy to run a search on ebay or the rest of the internet, or to go out to a store specializing in the type of good one is looking to sell. without the item in front of him, the buyer, does not have this luxury to such #a large degree and is basically at the whim of what seller tells him.

outside of this, especially in a buy-it-now situation, prices are often set low to generate a quick sale. People might be very well aware of what they COULD sell it for if they wait for the right buyer to come along, but sometimes they don't have the time and just need the money asap.

personally, i always proceed with caution, and don't think i'd ever buy a vintage instrument like that...if the price is too good to be true, it probably isn't. especially on vintage instruments, those 4 or 5 hundred dollars you "saved" will often go right back into the the repairman's pocket.

[Scott Tichenor]

(this was written simultaneously with scott's last post)
And affirms my point so concisely http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[12 fret]

I have been in that situation. Bought a guitar on Ebay a few years ago, seller obviously did'nt know what they had and had listed it poorly. It was an auction but I bought for under $200. A month later, a dealer gave me $1500 for in trade. Didn't feel bad or dishonest about it. Seller was happy and so was I. As far a hypocrisy, I wouldn't notify a buyer or a seller unless solicited. Everybody is entitled to their own mistakes.

[fatt-dad]

$1,777.xx is just awesome, er I mean aweful. . . .

I'm shocked!!

fatt who-just-doesn't-worry-at-the-beach-or-when-I-return dad