Bonaparte's retreat

[Milan Christi]

I've heard Bonaparte's Retreat on a You Tube video played by Dan Beimborn. (The first part of this medley is another old-timey tune) What confuses me is the melody of Bonaparte's retreat as played by Dan. It sounds exactly like the version used in Aaron Copland's ballet, "Rodeo". Yet when I search for tabs of this tune I get a very different melody line that is very reminiscent of the Copland and Beimborn renditions yet not really the same.

Does anyone have some background on this tune? This one is a real puzzle for me. Is it just a case of a folk tune being modified? (I'm aware of the different melodies used for the same folk song.) Or are there two different versions with two separate histories?

Edit: Here's a LINK (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hv3LSK-Ev4) to Dan's mighty fine pickin'.

[Loren Bailey]

MC,

I believe the tune from Rodeo is called "Hoedown". You might want to try to search on that. It sounds to me like Copeland took some liberty with Bonaparte's Retreat. Dan's version is pretty darn tastey. In trying to emulate it I found every version of Bonaparte's Retreat I could find, took out the parts I thought fit and patched together a fairly similiar piece. It's worth noting that Dan is using an alternate tuning (ADAD?) on this piece.

Loren

[Jim M.]

THat's my favorite fiddle tune, and I keep one of my fiddle's in DDAD tuning to play it. William Steppe, an old time Kentucky fiddler, played the version that Copeland used for "Rodeo" (similar to Dan's version, which is a great example of cross-tuned mando). Steppe's version was transcribed by Ruth Seeger (Pete's mom) in one of the John Lomax collections. It is different from the "Bonaparte's Retreat" that you hear played by a lot of bluegrass fiddlers (Chubby Wise does a great version, btw).

I don't think anyone knows whether Steppe's version is the "Bonaparte's Retreat" or if the bluegrasser's version is closer to the source tune, but they are both great tunes.

Copeland used many folk tunes in his music, including "Simple Gifts" and "Miss McCleod's Reel".

I have a CD with Steppe's version, and I think I have the Lomax book. I'm too lazy to dig them up right now, but if you want more info, let me know.

[Milan Christi]

I found every version of Bonaparte's Retreat I could find, took out the parts I thought fit and patched together a fairly similar piece.
Thanks for the reply, Loren - I think it's interesting that I'm doing the same thing you are to come up with the version I like!! You're right about Copland calling that section "Hoedown" - I remember that from my symphony days (when I played trombone) - I'm surprised that this melody stuck in my head all these years. (Should be no surprise, I guess, since Copland was a genius.)

Jim - I think you cleared that up a lot for me. I know that folk songs can undergo many transformations over the years. This sounds like one such case. If you take the melody of the fiddle tune apart you can find the same notes inside of different phrases. I'm not familiar with the standard fiddle tune but you can bet that I'll be checking it out. (I never really listened to fiddlers before starting the mandolin - and now I'm a Kenny Baker freak!)

Thanks for the replies, folks! This place is always my first source for info (it used to be the library!)

[JeffD]

There are lots of examples where classical composers have borrowed and taken liberties with folk tunes, and in some cases given the tune an entirely independant immortality. There is a Mozart horn concerto that sounds so much like the Irish tune Coleraine that would confidently assume there is some such relationship between them.

[John Flynn]

One problem with any fiddle tune that starts with the name "Bonaparte" is the there are about two dozen tunes and major variations that start with that name and some of the them have gotten jumbled and mis-matched with each other over the years. #The "Fiddler's Companion" lists six with the exact title "Bonaparte's Retreat," and one of them is a jig! I have heard recordings where a tune called "Bonaparte's Retreat" has actually been what other folks call "Bonaparte Crossing the Rhine." While fiddle tunes are far from standardized anyway, the Bonaparte tunes are among the least standardized.

[Milan Christi]

Now that's interesting to note - I guess I have to start looking at fiddle tunes more closely. Since I've only been playing mandolin for a few years I haven't even scratched the surface of possible repertoire. I know there are some decent fiddler's web sites so I guess I'll broaden my search.

And as JeffD pointed out - if the 'big boys' can do it (Bach and the crew) I guess I can, too. Sounds like Loren and I are on the same page.

Thanks again, everyone!

[Paul Kotapish]

There are dozens of settings for "Bonaparte's Retreat," and all of them are a little different from the onther settings and all are "correct."

Most old-time fiddlers play the tune in open tuning: DDAD (from the low string up) and take full advantage of that growling low-octave D on the G string. Some players slow it down to a funeral march or retreat pace, others prefer to attack it lickety-split as a fast reel.

I prefer the slow, mournful settings, which seem to capture the sentiment of the tune a little more accurately.

The version that Aaron Copeland incorporated in "Hoedown" was lifted note-for-note--according to banjo maven and musicologist Stephen Wade--from a setting played and recorded by W.H. ("Fiddling Bill") Stepp. You can purchase a monograph on the topic here. (http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0734-4392(200024)18%3A4%3C343%3ATRO%22RF%3E2.0.CO%3B2-U)

You can also listen to snippets from about 90 different artists--include W.H. Stepp--at the iTunes store. Bobby Osborne's mandolin setting--replete with dramatic key changes--is available there for 99¢, too.

This is one of the things I love about fiddle tunes--endless variations, interpretations, and opinions. The repertoire is living, breathing, and constantly evolving.

PK

[Scotti Adams]

Danny Roberts plays a great version on his "Mandolin Orchard" Cd. He also uses an open D tuning.

[danb]

I did my cut in DDAD tuning too.. drop the G down low to a D, drop the top e to a D, retune a couple times as that low D creeps up. My setting is mostly Aly Bain's setting (fiddle in DDAD) with a few snippets from "how they played it in Milwaukee circa 1993"

First tune is Midnight on the water. On my disk I followed that with Whiskey Before Breakfast, which also works great in DDAD

[Milan Christi]

Wow -thanks so much for all that background. I know now that I'll be delving deeper into the woods with this tune. In all of my musical endeavors I seem to get caught up in the melody and this one has been a favorite since I played the Copland piece more than 30 years ago in a symphony orchestra. Little did I know back then about the heritage of American music. (I used to be young and stupid!) The road just keeps on going and I see I'm not the only person mesmerized by the journey.

I really appreciate all this background -thank you!! Rest assured I'll check out all the recordings mentioned.

[Milan Christi]

Hi Dan - I was typing while you were posting. Thanks for chiming in! I was hoping you'd notice the post. I'm going to re-string my old Gibson 'A' and try out the tuning.

I really enjoy that little YouTube snippet - it's as much fun to watch as it is to listen. Thanks!!

[Paul Kotapish]

I did my cut in DDAD tuning too.. drop the G down low to a D, drop the top e to a D, retune a couple times as that low D creeps up. My setting is mostly Aly Bain's setting (fiddle in DDAD) with a few snippets from "how they played it in Milwaukee circa 1993"

First tune is Midnight on the water. On my disk I followed that with Whiskey Before Breakfast, which also works great in DDAD
Nice one, Dan. As always, lovely playing and nice settings.

I'm sure you already know this, but both "Midnight on the Water" and "Bonaparte's Retreat"--in that tuning--are associated with the Thomason dynasty of Texas fiddlers. Benny Thomason was the fiddler who first taught Mark O'Connor. He could play in the slicker, swingier style associated with western contest fiddling, but also had a great store of these older-sounding pieces. When he relocated to Washington State near Seattle, he was mentor to Mark--and many other NW fiddlers--and guided him to his first championships at the Weiser conventions.

I believe those settings were passed down from Benny's family back in Texas.

[MandoSquirrel]

That always gets me when I watch his vids; I don't know how he doesn't lose them when he "looses" them. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[danb]

Thanks for the nice comments. I got browsing youtube and gotta recommend Mike Compton's setting of Jenny Lynn (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjecEywRBLk) in AEAE "sawmill" tuning. That's the sound I hear in my head when I dream I am playing the mandolin

[12 fret]

I think a lot of the very old fiddle tunes are like that. I've seen versions with 2 , 3, and 4 parts with various indications of what parts substitute for others. Over many decades, these things change as people remember them differently or get titles confused. Another one like that I've noticed is Cluck Old Hen. I've heard about 10 versions of that that have nothing in common but the title. Such is the tradition

[danb]

I listened to that clip I did- I combined a couple different versions of the tune with the one that is most popularly known as "hoedown". There are a number of variations you can mix in. John McGann also has a great version on his "Upslide" disk, I often shamelessly steal those riffs when I play it too, though for some reason I don't appear to have in that video clip.

Mandolins that do DDAD well are unusual beasts too. That Steve Owsley Smith mandolin was a humdinger for it. I found I kept it in DDAD when I still had it, and I don't have an instrument that lives in that tuning now.

Experience has shown me that Vega cylinderbacks sound fantastic dropped to "Dead Man's" tuning like that too. In fact, they just plain sound fantastic, great old-timey sound.

I like to hear a sort of dulcimery tone (drone and unison) in my music, and always try to get a couple extra strings going when I play

[Milan Christi]

Even though I frequently play my guitar in altered tunings I've never tried it once on the mandolin - but I will now. But I'll have to wait until this weekend because my company thinks they need me to work all the time. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif It's hard enough to get an hour in to practice every day.

But I have to say this little thread has motivated me to do some more listening to old-time fiddle tunes. I really wish I would have started this mando stuff about 20 years ago. But having a resource like the Cafe speeds up the process of uncovering 'new' music.

And I do think that Bonaparte's Retreat will get worked into my ever-growing repertoire.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Thanks to all who have lent their time to my quandary - I really appreciate it!

[Jack Roberts]

This tune was recorded in 1937 by Alan and Elizabeth Lomax. The performer was W.H. "Bill" Step, and contains 4 (or maybe 5) parts. An A and B part was adopted by Copeland almost without modification into Rodeo. Mandolin players usually play the another of the twos A and B part.

Try tuning D' D A D for the Copland version and used the two lower Ds as a drone.

Copeland liked to borrow American tunes for his orchestral pieces. "Simple Gifts" is the main theme of "Appalacian Spring", for example.

[Milan Christi]

This tune was recorded in 1937 by Alan and Elizabeth Lomax. The performer was W.H. "Bill" Step, and contains 4 (or maybe 5) parts.

Are you aware of any recordings available of this performance? I checked the Internet Archive site but turned up nothing - actually I think they are undergoing some server renovation.

BTW - I de-tuned my old A1 with not very good results. I had just changed strings (J-74) so the tuning was problematic but I also thought the tonal balance of the instrument deteriorated. Haven't tried it on my F5 yet.

[oggiesnr]

Bonaparte's Retreat seems to start life as a late 18th/early 19th century Irish Reel. #It is one of a bunch of tunes (like Bonaparte crossing the Rhine) which date from that revolutionary era (bear in mind that Ireland was also ina state of rebellion at that time) where Bonaparte in a heroic figure for some. #

I was taught it as a set dance (slow reel speed with a dotted feel) by a fiddler who came from the Glens of Antrimn.

All the best

Steve

[Jack Roberts]

MC:

I tried it on my 1918 A-1 as well, (with J-74s) and it plays O.K., but not great.

As Paul Kotapish points out, you can download this tunes from the i-tunes store. If free is your favorite price, the historic recording of the three parts Copeland used can be downloaded from:

http://www.aca-dla.org/Berea/image/1426.mp3


Bonaparte's Retreat (http://www.aca-dla.org/Berea/image/1426.mp3)

The Berea College website has many other versions of this tune.

You can also learn more from:


Library of Congress page on Aaron Copelan (http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/collections/copland/index.html)

[danb]

The free clip is great, it reminds me vividly of recordings of John Doherty (and amazing Donegal fiddler who inspired the likes of Altan). My favorite piece of musical turf is where Northern Irish fiddlers (the sound of the Scottish pipes frequently heard within) meet Appalachan American Old-Timey. Drones, dulcimers, bouzoukis, resonators.. all at home in that place.

Isn't there just a fantastic smell of turf and hillsides in that recording?

[Milan Christi]

Thank you!! Those links aren't working for me but I'll keep foolin' around with 'em. Much appreciated! Funny how a tune gets stuck in you head. I hadn't heard it in many years until I saw Dan's clip - kinda like MAS, I guess. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

BTW, Dan - your albums have gotten a ton of playing time in this household lately. 'Torch and Fire' really lights me up! Terrific music and masterfully played!

[danb]

Thanks Milan, glad you like them

[Jack Roberts]

Thank you!! Those links aren't working for me but I'll keep foolin' around with 'em. Much appreciated! Funny how a tune gets stuck in you head. I hadn't heard it in many years until I saw Dan's clip - kinda like MAS, I guess. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

BTW, Dan - your albums have gotten a ton of playing time in this household lately. 'Torch and Fire' really lights me up! Terrific music and masterfully played!
If the links don't work, copy this url into your browser, go to the Berea College website, and do a search for "Step". Bonaparte's retreat is the first on the list

www.berea.edu/hutchinslibrary/specialcollections/specialsound.asp

I noticed the the server is down today. You guys must all be downloading Bonaparte's Retreat at the same time!

Jack

[Milan Christi]

Perfect! - that site will keep me busy for a couple months. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif The 'Step' recording is fantastic - almost sounds like two fiddles the way he accents the drones. I'll be busy for a while - that site is loaded with a lot of things to pique my curiosity.
Many thanks!!

[oggiesnr]

Here's another early example from the juneberrys78 collection. #Be warned the site is addictive #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Bonapartes Retreat (http://www.juneberry78s.com/otmsampler/01%20A%20A%20Gray%20-%20Bonapartes%20Retreat.mp3)

All the best

Steve