Marty Stuart's F5

[Treblemaker]

I recently witnessed a fairly astounding performance by Marty and the Fabulous Superlatives (including Cia Cherryholmes on banjo) last Sunday at Rockygrass.

I had a backstage/poser pit pass for Sunday and was equipped with binoculars. I couldn't help but notice that Marty Stuart's F5 was covered in signatures that were scratched into the top of his mandolin.

By the looks of these scratches my best guess was that Marty himself was the youthful perpetrator. Names such as "Earl," "Hank," and "Johnny" were fairly visible.

Does anyone out there know the story behind this instrument? Is is a Loar? What vintage is it?

Marty is clearly a confident and kick ### picker.
His last moments on stage were a 10 minute solo mandolin piece that convinced me of his skills.

I guess there is no point in my last comments as anyone who played with Lester and Earle at 6 yrs of age clearly is one talented mofo....

http://www.swampland.com/img....lin.jpg (http://www.swampland.com/img/Image/articles/martystuart/marty_mandolin.jpg)

-Treblemaker
http://www.WorldWideTed.com

[sgarrity]

It's not a Loar. But I can't rememebr who made it. there have been several discussions about it on here. I'd try and search for a link to the thread but I'm lazy (and busy with this work nonsense). http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[AlanN]

His last moments on stage were a 10 minute solo mandolin piece that convinced me of his skills.
It's no Loar, could be a Randy Wood, but others on here surely know.

I've been convinced for 30 years.

[sgarrity]

From our own f5loar last time we had this discussion:

"It's a Rural Yarbough/Marion Kirk F5 Loar copy. Kirk learned to build the F5 from Randy Wood. Marty is most talented and would do well in a solo setting. I thought it was more of an early 70's model since he was born l958 and being 14 would be 1972 so something is off there if he told you 1982."

[don richards]

I heard..., Chris Warner...!!!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

["left"out]

I saw an interview with marty not to long ago where he talked about it. The first scratch was (intentionally) added by the Johnny Cash while borrowing it during a performance. I think he said Johnny thought it looked to new or something. After that I guess it was game on. Marty said he wasn't sure who most of the signatures where, and that he's pretty sure he didn't ask for them!
That's the story as I recall it, but I could be wrong.
Sean

[Kevin K]

Either way, whoever made it, it sounds good and he's a heck of a mandolin player.

[Timbofood]

Kevin, I used your "witty saying" the other day and got a great look from the sound guy!

[Mandolusional]

I saw the interview too, as I recall he mentioned he saved the money by himself to have that mandolin built when he was an early teenager. #He was very proud of it, and I don't remember the details but I think he was backstage and a performance where he let Johnny Cash check it out and next thing he knew Mr. Cash was carving his name into it while he looked on in shock! #That's where it all began, but if someone is going to carve their name into your prized instrument, I don't suppose you could do much better than the legend himself! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[evanreilly]

I think John R. carved his name and a cross into the instrument to remind Marty to always be humble.

[AlanN]

Btw, one GREAT record is Marty, RidgeRunner Records, #RRR0002 maybe, from '78 or '79. Talk about different grooves, everything from grass to blues to funk. Has several legends contributing, plus unknowns. He does a few bars of Rawhide on mandolin, simply great with his own stylisms.

[Mikey G]

Wonder what would happen today if someone starting whittlin' on someone else's mandolin? Johnny Cash or not, I know that would not work very well with me. The next time I'm around another mandolin player, I'll ask if I can see his mandolin and take out the old Swiss Army knife.

[woodwizard]

I will see him August 24th/25th in Eureka Springs AR and if I get a chance I'll ask him all about his mando and see what he says. There will be a lot of good pickers those days. 2 shows per day. Sam Bush, Ronnie Reno, Tennessee Gentelmen to name a few. My wife & I have got our tickets for both shows. Eureka Springs is a pretty cool little town.

[Scotti Adams]

..I thought the mando was origionally intended for Roland White who was playing with Lester at the time..Roland decided he didnt want it and passed the chance to buy it on to young Marty.

[Scotti Adams]

..here it tis...

[Scotti Adams]

...with the man

[Scotti Adams]

...

[Scotti Adams]

...

[hlebowi2]

At the workshop at Greyfox (he came in at the end of Sam Bush's time at the Master's Tent) Marty was asked about the mandolin. I forgot where it was from, but I do remember he said it cost about $650.!!
Howard

[hlebowi2]

picture 2

[hlebowi2]

#3

[bud]

Here is photo from Marty's encore at Rockygrass 07. He moved his mic out front, said he couldn't see the crowd. He blew me away. My first time to see Marty. His picking had a blues groove that took a seat to none of the great mandolin pickers at Rockygrass(including Grisman, Thile, Bush, Lawson, McReynolds, McCoury). It was a great festival for mandolin fans. The logo on this years poster and t shirts also had a great mandolin. I'll post a photo of it also.

[bud]

Here is the Rockygrass program cover for this year. #I think it would make a great tattoo for any who dare.

[Bing Cullen]

A few years ago when I bought his Pilgrim album I wrote to his fan club site to get info about his mandolin. I never got a reply, so I never bought another album. Anyway there has been a lot of confusing info about his mandolin about the cafe. One thread said he sold his Loar and now plays a $600 mando. That is probably a reference to what he paid for the mandolin under discussion here. He may not have a Loar, but he does seem to be a collector..I think he owns Hank williams D45 and Lester Flatts old D28.

[Martin]

A dare to get another mandolin tatto, oh boy that's all I needed.
To be continued in another thread.

[flatthead]

I always heard Chris Warner built it for Roland, but Roland didn't take it. I believe Marty roomed with Roland when he first went with Flatt.

On another note, I saw Marty about a year ago on one of those solo things: I think he said it was about the second or third time he had ever done it (maybe first time) and I have to tell you...he flat put it to it!! He played Lester's guitar, then the Clarence White Telecaster, then mandolin....back and forth for about 2 hours.....unbelievably good *tone*....that telecaster sounded about as good as I've ever heard any live instrument....

I got to visit a little with him later and I found him to be exceedingly articulate, cordial, and funny.....and he's got better hair than me.:(

[jim simpson]

I thought his was a Chris Warner as well. I've posted this pic before - a Chris Warner I used to own:

[jmpullen]

I am fairly certain that it is a Chris Warner product as well. I recall someone telling me once that it was a Kirk, but the word then came from a more knowing source that it was
from Warner. But like several have said, he is one more
kick a-- mandolin picker for sure. He could probably make a
gourd with a string on it sound good ! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[harrykat]

i also beleive marty plays the telecaster that belonged to clarence white; the one he used in the byrds with the b- bender.

[56 Gibson Hoss]

Are you referring to Chris Warner the banjo picker? He makes mandolins, or is it someone else?

[Crowder]

I've heard that Marty's personal collection of instruments is among the best if not the best in Nashville. He's a serious collector (and player!).

[f5loar]

Many are on a special display at the TN State Muesum in Nashville and will remain there through October. He also shows many of the vintage Nudie Rhinestone suits too along with other highlights from his collection that is stored in warehouses.

[Stephanie Reiser]

...but that Chris Warner says "The Gibson" on the headstock. I think I read somewhere that it was occasionally done, if not fashionable during a certain time-frame. Odd. I just hope that those who put other's name on the headstock put their real label inside the F-hole. Otherwise it's a forgery.

I saw Marty on the Grand Ole Opry with Skaggs, both on mandolin, and man...he sure could pick a lick.

[jim simpson]

Stephanie,
The Chris Warner that I owned (as illustrated) had a label inside that stated Gibson copy built by Chris Warner and dated (1973 - I think). I bought it used from a friend and new what it was. I had to do a bit of work planing the neck, adding a new fingerboard, thus the difference in binding color. I couldn't get how to age the binding at that time.
I've seen Hutto, Monteleone and other makers from thier early days making Gibson copies. I guess the quality of Gibson F's in the day made it more attractive to buy a good quality copy.

[Tighthead]

Are you referring to Chris Warner the banjo picker? He makes mandolins, or is it someone else?
It is that Chris Warner. He's also built banjos. I'm not sure how active a builder he is these days.

He does a lot of repair and set-up work through Campbell's Music Service just outside of York, PA.

[f5loar]

But did that Chris Warner learn how to make mandolins from Marion Kirk of Alabama? Marion Kirk learned from Randy Wood and teamed up with Rural Yarbrough.
And yes there was a long span of time in the late 60's to early 70's that dozens of unknown at the time mandolin builders(not so sure some were considered luthiers) that not only put "The Gibson" in the headstock in their F5s but also copied both labels and even used unknown serial numbers of the time. While most of these are quite easy to spot as fakes a few could pass as the real thing to most average mandolin pickers that don't know S**t about the real Loars. You'll find them worn and tattered in Pawnshops for $1000 these days.

[Jim Hilburn]

I'm really intrigued by that era when it was obvious there was a demand for F-5's and no big companies interested in filling the demand. It started with the conversions and then into the custom builds, whether or not they were intended to decieve.
This lead directly to the number of custom builders we have today. Gibson likes to portray themselves as the venerable old company that invented the F-5 but in fact are latecomers to the party.
By the way, this is not Gibson bashing, just my take on how it is.

[Ed Goist]

I heard..., Chris Warner...!!!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

I had the opportunity to chat with both Marty Stuart and his guitar technician for a few minutes after Marty's excellent concert in Kent, Ohio last night.

During the conversation, Marty confirmed that his F5 was built by Chris Warner (http://www.campbellsmusic.com/repairs%20&%20shop.htm).

Also, Marty's tech (and I can kick myself for not remembering the gentleman's name - he was remarkably gracious [especially when he realized how much of a mandolin geek I am]) brought Marty's F5 up to the edge of the stage and allowed me to take a few close-up pics. Here they are:

64115 64116

Here's a close-up of the first carving
on Marty's F5 - Johnny Cash's initials.
64117 64118

Also, I found this really interesting...The guitar tech's favorite 'signature' on Marty's F5 is from Doc Watson. it's the red label maker tape on the back of the peghead, and it's in braille! Now how cool is that!

64119

[8ch(pl)]

I have a program of the Grand Ol' Opry that I attended in spring 1973. Long before I was interested in Mandolin. There was a Bluegrass Band and they introduced a 14 year old mandolin player who did "There's a Bluebird Singing, in the Blue Ridge mountains...." )not the title).

For years this program was lost in my travels until I found it after I started playing Mandolin. The Bluegrass band was "The Bluegrass Band" and I believe Mr. Monroe was introducing Marty Stuart, who was 14 at that time. Am I right?

I keep the program in my Tenor banjo case.

[jim simpson]

Marty's looks like it may have had a new fingerboard and binding just like my old Warner. Cool pictures!

[John Gass]

Those are some great closeups of what I'm sure will be a museum piece itself someday. Awesome!

[JeffD]

Wonder what would happen today if someone starting whittlin' on someone else's mandolin? Johnny Cash or not, I know that would not work very well with me.

Are you kidding, If Johnny Cash, or Jethro Burns, or Marty Stuart, or Chris Thile wanted to whittle my mandolin I would hold it down for them.

[f5loar]

Marty at 14 or in '73 was with Lester Flatt and the Nashville Grass band. He would often sing that song with Lester during that era.
If he did any other bands at that time I would guess anything like it is today of pickers getting together and calling themselves something else other then the name of the bands they played in at the time. He was likely sitting in with other superpickers of the day. Do you remember the rest of the "Bluegrass Band" ?

[John Flynn]

I found this in a CMT interview with Stuart online

"Well, I'd saved my money to buy that mandolin when I got a job with Lester Flatt, and it was $650. For years, I was real proud of the fact that it never had a scratch on it. It looked like a brand new instrument for probably 12 or 13 years. When I got a job with Johnny Cash, he got on a kick of wanting me to teach him how to play the mandolin. And he was a horrible mandolin player. He'd take my mandolin on the stage and just play along with June Carter when she was singin'. One night I looked over there and he had his pocketknife out and scratched a huge cross on it and put his initials, "JRC," on it and then flipped the mandolin over and autographed it and signed, "Johnny Cash." My heart fell. After the show, I said, "What did you do that for?" and he said, "I didn't want you to forget the Lord." And I told him I could have remembered the Lord without him wrecking my mandolin. But it was all in good fun. And that started a trend after that. People just felt compelled to sign the mandolin. It has Stephen King, President Clinton, Bob Dylan, Billy Bob Thornton, Chuck Berry, Quincy Jones, Natalie Cole, ex-girlfriends, my momma and a lot of people I don't know on there. I'm about to run out of places for people to sign."

[CES]

I'm surprised Connie hasn't done a little creative editing/whittling of her own given the ex-s on there...of course, the man does wear a T-shirt that says, "I love Connie Smith," but I don't know how tolerant my wife would be of that graffiti :grin:.

Glad you enjoyed the show and got to take a close look at it...pretty cool, indeed...

[8ch(pl)]

Well F5 Loar, by the song, I think you have confirmed that it probably was Marty Stuart. The band was Bill Monroe and the Bluegrass Boys, I didn't remember that until I found the program. That is what I meant by it being "The Bluegrass Band". I wasn't into Bluegrass at all back then and am more Folk now.

[Willie]

Chris Warner has done some mandolin repairs for me in the past but since then I believe he has started doing gun repairs and works only part time at Campbells music in a small town close ot York Pa....I haven`t seen or talked to him for some time so that might have changed by now...Chris is a fine mandolin picker as well as a banjo player and builder....

I can`t understand why some good builders couldn`t have made a fake Loar that would fool the "experts", if Gibson could do certain things then so could others....I`m not bashing Gibson or anyone just seems to me that if Gibson can now claim their MM is as close to an original Loar as possible then someone must be able to duplicate one....I have heard that there are some out there that would fool the experts but I don`t know, all I have seen and played seemed original to me....Willie

[f5loar]

Then maybe the ones you played were some of the fake ones! There are the really good fakes and then the really bad ones. There is a late 60's story of a fake Loar that was so real George Gruhn almost bought it until Harry West got in on the deal to disspell why it was a fake. I've heard lots of stories from guys that say they played a Loar only to find out it was a pretty good fake. And then I've actually seen many guys hold, inspect and play a real Loar and not know what it was.

[bluegrassgm]

OK - here goes... my honest opinion;
I don't get it! I must be missing something. I don't care whose names are on it... that mandolin looks absolutely terrible.
If that is "mojo" then I'll do without it.

I wonder what Lloyd Loar, Bill Monroe or Steve Gilchrist would think about it? LOL

[Willie]

F5 Loar....I met a fellow in Missouri that was showing off his "Loar" and he almost smacked me up beside the head when I showed him some things to prove that it wasn`t a "real Loar', the following year I went back to that festival and he came up to me and told me I was correct, that it was in fact a copy, it wasn`t even a good one...I can`t say that all of them that were said to be real were actually real but I have played and seen quite a few that I knew pretty much were the real thing, I loaned some money to a fellow once so he could buy one and I considered myself a half owner and had the chance to play and inspect it over real carefully, it is now owned by a Cafe owner...I`m sure I could be fooled tho....Willie

[Philippe Bony]

OK - here goes... my honest opinion;
I don't get it! I must be missing something. I don't care whose names are on it... that mandolin looks absolutely terrible.
If that is "mojo" then I'll do without it.

I wonder what Lloyd Loar, Bill Monroe or Steve Gilchrist would think about it? LOL

Bill Monroe did a lot of work with a knife on his own Loar!!!
:))

[bluegrassgm]

It's true Bill Monroe famously did a bit of pen-knife work on the headstock but most of the wear and tear on his Loar (just like Sam Bush's Hoss) was through good ol' fashioned playing the thing. (and I love the look of those instruments for that reason)

It's the notion of people just grabbing any sharp implement that's around then gouging their names into the timber of a fine instrument that I find hard to get my head around.

Still... it's whatever floats your boat I guess.
(it still just looks like a kids have had a graffiti party with it to me!)

[Bernie Daniel]

OK - here goes... my honest opinion;
I don't get it! I must be missing something. I don't care whose names are on it... that mandolin looks absolutely terrible.
If that is "mojo" then I'll do without it.

I wonder what Lloyd Loar, Bill Monroe or Steve Gilchrist would think about it? LOL

I agree with you completely! I don't care who wants to sign my mandolin (not that anyone would anyway!) -- I say no. That's what paper is for.

[jbrwky]

Some of us were waiting to go on stage at Merlefest and Marty came walking by. Someone said, Hey Marty, and he actually came over. The guy said, we're about to go on stage and we're nervous, any advice? Marty said, Close your eyes and go to a place that's deep, dark and blue..... We're like.. WHAT??!! Very funny. he's an interesting guy.

[Ed Goist]

...snip...Very funny. he's an interesting guy.

I was fortunate enough to chat with Marty for a few minutes after I took the photos posted above...Like a major nerd, I started the conversation with a comment based on a Mandolin Cafe thread I had been reading that day (can you believe it?)...

I introduced myself, shook his hand, and told him it was an honor to meet him. Then I said (and yes, I actually said this to him)..."I have you on my Mount Rushmore of mandolin players, along with: Mike Marshall, David Grisman, and Bill." (I almost couldn't believe I had just said something this corny).

His reaction?...He smiled widely and said: "Ed, that's some tall cotton you got me in there!" - (How great is that! ), Then he said, without missing a beat..."You know that Mike Marshall is CRAZY...He sure can play, but he's crazy!"

Needless to say, it was a brief conversation that I'll remember forever.

What a cool guy!

[Murphy Slaw]

Great stories. I emailed his fan club for any info he could share about Scotty Stoneman because he played with Scotty, but never heard anything back.

[Willie]

Any of you that have the RFD-TV channel, Marty has a great show being shown this week, it`s a repeat...He is really pushing his new CD, "Ghost Train", but he pays tributes to a few of the people that influenced his career...

I never cared for Marty`s way of doing MC work but he is a fine musician and also gives a lot of credit to people that have helped him on his way up....This week he features songs that he has written, one for Connie, his wife, another for his dad....

No mandolin playing tho....Willie

[Ed Goist]

...snip...I never cared for Marty`s way of doing MC work but he is a fine musician...snip...Willie

Hi Willie; what is it about Marty's MC that you don't like?

Would you say that your favorite MC is a more strict, Bluegrass-type of mandolin style/content?

I'm not asking to be contrary, or to start a scrap, I just trying to identify what it is about Marty Stuart's mandolin playing that I like so much...and I'm thinking that what you dislike, and what I like, might be the exact same thing. :)

I'm relatively new to the mandolin (been playing and listening seriously for about 9 months), and the players and playing styles I have identified as favorites (Marty Stuart, Tim O'Brien, Rebecca Lovell, John Paul Jones, Norman Blake, and Levon Helm to name a few) seem to be heavily influenced by the Blues and Rock, and not the strict Bluegrass approach.

I'm therefore curious as to whether you find Stuart's mandolin style not 'Bluegrass enough'.

Thanks much.

[Bernie Daniel]

I'm really intrigued by that era when it was obvious there was a demand for F-5's and no big companies interested in filling the demand. It started with the conversions and then into the custom builds, whether or not they were intended to decieve.
This lead directly to the number of custom builders we have today. Gibson likes to portray themselves as the venerable old company that invented the F-5 but in fact are latecomers to the party.
By the way, this is not Gibson bashing, just my take on how it is.

Please explain. 1) in fact Gibson IS an old company (pre-1900 and so is about the oldest active mandolin builder here in the USA anyway, (you can debate the venerable part; and 2) Gibson Mandolin & Guitar Company DID invent the F-5 in 1922! :) Before that there were NO F-5 mandolins.

[Bernie Daniel]

Any of you that have the RFD-TV channel, Marty has a great show being shown this week, it`s a repeat...He is really pushing his new CD, "Ghost Train", but he pays tributes to a few of the people that influenced his career...

I never cared for Marty`s way of doing MC work but he is a fine musician and also gives a lot of credit to people that have helped him on his way up....This week he features songs that he has written, one for Connie, his wife, another for his dad....

No mandolin playing tho....Willie

Yeah the Marty Stuart Show is the highlight of my viewing week (although I watch very little TV aside of the news) and RFD TV is just great from 6 pm to midnight every Saturday (Gaither Gospel Hour, Presley Family show from Branson, Midwest County Show from Sandstone, MN, Cumberland Highlanders from Rosine!

That Ghost Train review show last week was awesome -- Marty is a fine man.

[Bill Snyder]

Ed I could be wrong but when Willie said he doesn't like Marty's way of doing MC work I thought of master of ceremonies.

[Bernie Daniel]

Ed I could be wrong but when Willie said he doesn't like Marty's way of doing MC work I thought of master of ceremonies.

Marty has Eddie Stubbs for the MC job. None better for that! :)

Regarding the earlier comment about no mandolin (#57) -- it depends. Some shows he plays several mandolin numbers -- others none.

[Ed Goist]

Ed I could be wrong but when Willie said he doesn't like Marty's way of doing MC work I thought of master of ceremonies.

Bill, if you're right, how funny is that? :))

[Jim Hilburn]

I first became aware of mandolins and bluegrass in the early 70's. Many had been into it in the 60's or even the 50's when the festival scene was really getting underway. There were a lot of people looking for Martins, Gibson banjo's and mandolins.
Suppose you went looking for a mandolin in '65. Gibson made F-5's then but the were nothing like the mandolins of the 20's. You would be hard pressed to find one that would give a satisfactory sound if you wanted to sound like Monroe. And it still was pretty pricey. The market was in guitars and mainly electric guitars. Mandolins were just a sideline at the time.
There were no imports other than European designs which weren't suited to bluegrass. In the used market, the Loars were pretty much spoken for or selling for as much as a car and only a few would make that commitment. There were the Gibsons from the 30's,40,s and 50,s. The build quality was always good but the tone quality wasn't. That's why early luthiers started taking them apart and re-graduating them. Oh, yeah, there were Harmony's and Stella's.
Then there was a handful of guys who realized that if you wanted a good bluegrass mandolin you were going to have to make it yourself. By the mid 70's there was a good number of guys making mandolins and Chris Warner was one of them.

[Bernie Daniel]

I first became aware of mandolins and bluegrass in the early 70's. Many had been into it in the 60's or even the 50's when the festival scene was really getting underway. There were a lot of people looking for Martins, Gibson banjo's and mandolins.
Suppose you went looking for a mandolin in '65. Gibson made F-5's then but the were nothing like the mandolins of the 20's. You would be hard pressed to find one that would give a satisfactory sound if you wanted to sound like Monroe. And it still was pretty pricey. The market was in guitars and mainly electric guitars. Mandolins were just a sideline at the time.
There were no imports other than European designs which weren't suited to bluegrass. In the used market, the Loars were pretty much spoken for or selling for as much as a car and only a few would make that commitment. There were the Gibsons from the 30's,40,s and 50,s. The build quality was always good but the tone quality wasn't. That's why early luthiers started taking them apart and re-graduating them. Oh, yeah, there were Harmony's and Stella's.
Then there was a handful of guys who realized that if you wanted a good bluegrass mandolin you were going to have to make it yourself. By the mid 70's there was a good number of guys making mandolins and Chris Warner was one of them.

Oh, I agree with every point you make there -- in fact I kind of followed the same path of "mandolin awareness" -- in terms of style and quality (an about the same time period too). Certainly the Gibson company lost their way after WWII and for a long time thereafter at least in mandolins.

And certainly the private builders moved in to fill a real need. My only point was -- and it is not big deal -- Gibson is still the Godfather of the American mandolin and they still get the credit for inventing the F-5 mandolin -- despite their obvious period of disrepute.

Of course in the early 1970's a new car could be had for $3 - 4K. When exactly did the prices started jumping up on the Loars? What year was did that transaction take place where Frank Wakefield bought two Gibson mandolins -- a Loar signed F-5 and an F-4 one afternoon in Columbus Ohio for a total of $200? It was related on the Mandolin Extravaganza CD.

[Jim Hilburn]

The first number I heard in the early 70's for a Loar was $4k. There are several guys posting here that were in the game in those days.
Everyone was trying to find that little old lady with one under the bed that they could get for $200.
Bernie, we're on the same page about Gibson. I'm glad they hired Loar when they did.

[f5loar]

Finding a new Gibson F5 in '65 or '66 was pretty tough. They only made 15 in '65 and 11 in '66 so you had to turn to the used market which was even harder as any picker that had a real Gibson F5 was unlikely to get rid of it at any price. That's what created a market, the shortage of Gibson not making many of them , bad or good. While one could argue it was not a great sounding F5 many pros still used them. It was still a high end professional grade model and Gibson was the only game in town back then. Late 60's saw the upswing in Gibson copies and the 70's saw an increase in the import market which was making them better then Gibson in the 70's whos remake of the classic F5 was worse then the 60's. It was not until 1978 when pickers realized Gibson may have struck gold again in the F5 with the new F5L and they started to regain the market back.

[bernabe]

Bill Monroe did a lot of work with a knife on his own Loar!!!
:))

I believe it was Marty [when he was a teen] who walked in on Bill backstage one night while he was scratching up his mandolin with a Knife. Bills reply, "maybe now no one will want to pick it up". He apparently had a problem with folks playin his mandolin.

[f5loar]

That would have been teenager Sonny Osborne (who was a Bluegrass Boy at the time) in the early 50's when he saw Monroe take a knife to the finish back stage at the Opry. Marty was not born when that took place.

[Gail Hester]

It's interesting the way that story seems to have a life oif it's own. I was talking to Ronnie McCoury a couple weeks ago after his show here in WA and he related the same thing that f5loar said, that Sonny Osborne heard a scrapping sound and went to see what Bill was doing and found him scrapping the laquer oversparay off with a knife. He said he didn't like the way it sounded with that thick finish on there.

[Willie]

Ed, I love Marty`s mandolin playing, I think he is right up there at the top of the list along with Ronnie McCoury, Doyle Lawson, and Bobby Osborne....Just to name a few....It WAS in fact his way of talking that I was refering to, I sometimes hear him slur his words but I am an old man and don`t hear as good as you young un`s...I am a friend of Eddie Stubbs and they don`t come any better than him when it comes to MC work.....

In my band I am the leader and one thing I have found in 50 years of playing is that enunciation (sp) of your words when talking on stage is something that is very improtant, you can bore the crowd to death if they can`t understand you and they get bored by you talking too much, unless you are Ron Thomason of Dry Branch Fire Squad, a great story teller...

I tape every one of Martys shows and get some good material from them....Willie

[Ed Goist]

Thanks Willie. That's pretty funny (me thinking your MC meant 'mandolin content', and going so in depth in my post) :))

I love the Marty Stuart Show also, and watch it every week on RFD. My two favorite mandolin moments on the show so far were when Marty performed 'Walkin Through the Prayers' (http://www.martystuart.com/mss-4-10-10.htm), and when he and Connie Smith performed 'Wayfaring Stranger' (http://www.martystuart.com/mss-12-26-09.htm). Just awesome!

Also, The Quebe Sisters were on the 'Wayfaring Stranger' episode...That was a great show.

[Chris Warner]

I will finally put the question to rest as to who made Marty Stuart's autographed mandolin. It was me , Chris Warner. I originally built it for Roland White and when delivered, Roland was not playing at the time and didn't need it. Marty was living with Roland. As I remember, Marty was about 13 years old. Marty ended up buying the mandolin and the rest is history.
Chris Warner

[Bernie Daniel]

Thanks Willie. That's pretty funny (me thinking your MC meant 'mandolin content', and going so in depth in my post) :))

I love the Marty Stuart Show also, and watch it every week on RFD. My two favorite mandolin moments on the show so far were when Marty performed 'Walkin Through the Prayers' (http://www.martystuart.com/mss-4-10-10.htm), and when he and Connie Smith performed 'Wayfaring Stranger' (http://www.martystuart.com/mss-12-26-09.htm). Just awesome!

Also, The Quebe Sisters were on the 'Wayfaring Stranger' episode...That was a great show.

Definitely one of my favorite episodes of the series too. I also like his "What will become of the working man" though its not one of the mandolin songs.

Some keep asking RFD-TV to turn it into a one hour show --but I hope they don't. I've learned to savor every minute the show and it would be hard to keep it a fresh if it were twice as long each week. Did you buy the first year highlights DVD?

LeRoy Troy is great and he's a hoot but I'd like to see him less often maybe every other week or so -- then have the guests or Connie do a second number. And I wish Eddie Stubbs would get out the fiddle more often. But those are just opinions.

Good to hear the confirmation by Chris Warner that he made the mandolin. Given Marty's success he could have about any mandolin he wanted so its a fine tribute to the builder that he has stuck with it all these years. Anything special about the mandolin that comes to mind as far as its construction?

[jim simpson]

Chris,
Welcome to the Cafe' and thank you for setting the record straight. You can see that we are a pretty obsessive lot here.
I posted the picture ealier in the thread of one of your mandos that I used to own.

[Chris Warner]

Bernie,
There is nothing special about the construction. I learned to build them on my own with limited good mandolins to observe. There were better mandolin builders at that time and many wonderful artists that have built fine mandolins since. Marty's was certainly one of my better sounding mandolins and I'm proud that he likes it and has continued to play it all these years.
Chris

[Jim Hilburn]

Chris, I'd love to hear your recollection's of the F-5 building scene from when you were building.
I'm in Colorado and while we're obviously way out in left field there has always been a strong bluegrass scene here and there were several guys building F copies at least by the early 70's .
When I finished my first mandolin in '80 I had a local luthier do the set-up work and he gave me a folder filled with tracings of arches and scrolls and early computer read outs of fret spacings, stuff that had been passed around among those who wanted to make one. It's just always been something I've been interested in, how individuals got involved in doing something that only big companies had done before.

[Chris Warner]

Hi Jim,
The only other builders that I recollect being aware of at the time were Randy Wood, Tom Morgan, and some others who I can't remember just now. There weren't any in my immediate area. Hence, my having to learn on my own. My techniques were crude at the time. Having limited funds to buy bending iron and proper planes, I did all that with what was available to me. I built about
19 or 20 F5 style and then built 4 to 5 slightly altered variants on the F5 with an inlayed W on the peg head. Nothing real exciting.
I was just learning to build banjo necks and mandolins and repairing instruments.
Chris

[Bernie Daniel]

Hi Jim,
The only other builders that I recollect being aware of at the time were Randy Wood, Tom Morgan, and some others who I can't remember just now. There weren't any in my immediate area. Hence, my having to learn on my own. My techniques were crude at the time. Having limited funds to buy bending iron and proper planes, I did all that with what was available to me. I built about
19 or 20 F5 style and then built 4 to 5 slightly altered variants on the F5 with an inlayed W on the peg head. Nothing real exciting.
I was just learning to build banjo necks and mandolins and repairing instruments.
Chris

Building an F-5 at that time -- with relatively little backup or help and lacking many of the tools used today was quite an amazing feat I would say.
I assume that you probably did not have any paper patterns or plans. Where did you get the proper dimensions and the information for graduations etc. Did you have to take an F-5 apart in order to get your start?

Given how much work the Gibson factory under Derrington and others had to expend to re-create the Loar model I think the accomplishments of you and other builders back in those days was pretty remarkable. I say this because not only were good looking F-5's made -- but they sounded good as well!

[Chris Warner]

Bernie,
I did not have exact dimensions of an original, but having taken backs off of some F4's and "50's" F5's and 12s to do repairs, or to thin tops, I learned how they were constructed. I experimented with top graduations and bracing thickness's with some good results and some better than others. Hope this answers your questions.
Chris

[Eric Hanson]

Thank you Chris for your contributions to this thread, and more importantly, to the world of mandolins.
I really enjoy hearing the history of the builders and techniques used. I have visited a shop close to where I live and am enthralled with what goes into the construction and sculpting of these beautiful instruments.
....Sorry for the drool all over this subject. I still consider myself a bit of a newbee, but greatly enjoy and appreciate all that is shared or the rest of us to read.

[Jerry Hayes]

I've been a fan of Marty's in most of his musical endeavors for years and saw him in action a couple of times. My best memory of his playing comes from about 12 years ago or so when my band opened for his at a Truck Rodeo in Va. Beach, Va..... He did his last tune and then for an encore he came on solo with just his mandolin. He sang and played Merle Travis' old tune "Dark as a Dungeon" and it made the hair on the back of your neck stand up! It's probably got to be one of the best solo performances I've heard by anyone in my entire life and I've been around for a helluva long time. Whoever was running the sound system was also a genius as every little thing about the mandolin's tone was brought out to perfection. The only other acoustic performance I've ever seen which came close might have been Allison Krause's.........JH in Va.

[michaelpthompson]

Marty at 14 or in '73 was with Lester Flatt and the Nashville Grass band. He would often sing that song with Lester during that era.

Like this:

http://youtu.be/o6nmib7UaKA