Tremolo or vibrato?

[Tillmanator]

Hi Folks,

OK... classically trained flute playing mando convert here....

Would a mandolinist ever use vibrato rather than tremolo on long notes? Is tremolo ALWAYS the rule... or perhaps whatever you feel like doing?

At this point in my learning (just over a month) I can do neither really well, but I was just wondering for future reference.

Thanks for humoring my curiosity.

[Ken Sager]

Without much sustain (even good mandolins have very little sustain) a vibrato can only be used effectively in small doses. An effective tremolo can add a "feeling" of vibrato, but it isn't the same. Besides, a fretted instrument is hard to get a good vibrato from since a vibrato is a change in intonation and a fret pretty much dictates intonation. A vibrato-like bend can have the same effect, but without the sustain of a bowed note (as in a violin) it's hard to have an effective vibrato by itself.

That said, do what feels good. Tremolo, vibrate, wiggle, it's all good.

Best,
Ken

[Patrick Killeen]

I've just one thing to add to Ken's comment. Vibrato is quite common with electric mandolins, they have more sustain than acoustics which gives you scope to use string bending to get a vibrato effect.

Patrick

[Klaus Wutscher]

For the above stated reasons, vibrato is rarely used on the mandolin. Two players that use vibrato on occasions are Tim O´Brien and esp. David Grisman. Grisman in particular uses it a lot on slow- midtempo numbers to great effect. It can be very expressive if used with taste- just check out the albums grisman made with Jerry Garcia, particularly tunes like "friend of the devil" or "the thrill is gone".

Greetings from a mandolin player starting to play the flute:) - two instruments that are a lot more trickier than they seem at first glance...

[Eugene]

Vibrato is extremely common to, even expected of, classical and electric guitars in spite of their frets. One problem with vibrato on courses of paired strings is that it's difficult to get the strings to fluctuate in pitch in a way that sounds good together. No, it's not impossible and some mandolinists do use vibrato as mentioned, but vibrato is not as easy on a typical modern mandolin as on a violin...or flute.

[foldedpath]

String gauge and setup is also a factor, isn't it?

I'm just a beginner at mandolin (transitioning from guitar). I've been fooling around with some blues licks on my new mando, using T-I Medium flatwounds (actually a light gauge) while I get used to the instrument. I wanted to avoid the cheese grater effect until my calluses develop. With these fairly light (and slippery!) strings, I can do a little sideways-type vibrato across the frets, blues guitar style. Not much, but it's there.

Classical guitar-type linear vibrato doesn't work, or else my fingers just aren't strong enough. I don't think I could even pull off the easier, sideways BB King-type vibrato with heavier strings, or a higher action setup. And I'm talking really subtle vibrato here, at that... not the kind of deep, heavy vibrato King does. The instrument just doesn't seem to want to go there, so I don't think I'm going to invest much time in it.

[Evan Mahoney]

Embrace the Mandolin with it's qualities and limitations. Can you play tremelo on Flute or Violin or Guitar? The Flute can trill, the violin can play really fast stucatto and the guitar can try and tremelo, none can tremelo like the Mando, though. I'd intone to "learn your instrument, learn the music, and then forget it all and play."
Fly me to the moon, use tremelo.

[Eugene]

Classical guitar-type linear vibrato doesn't work, or else my fingers just aren't strong enough. I don't think I could even pull off the easier, sideways BB King-type vibrato with heavier strings, or a higher action setup.
I prefer the former because it can go both sharp and flat of the principal and keeps both strings at similar pitch. I can pull it off with most wound strings, but it's really tough on unwound strings at mandolin gauges. The latter can only go sharp of the principal and bends the pitches of the two strings of a single course differentially without real effort to mitigate.

[mandocrucian]

Personally, I prefer to use vibrato much more than tremolo.


The instrument just doesn't seem to want to go there, so I don't think I'm going to invest much time in it.

That's a self-perpetuating evolutionary trend. That's why mandolin players don't play long notes (without tremolo) - cause they never put in any time on getting some vibrato. Cause without the vibrato, the long notes just quack like a duck instead of singing. So what you get is a player cramming in a lot of notes instewad trying to cover up their deficiency in "singing tone".

And because the status quo always reinforces itself, you get a chorus saying, "you can't do vibrato on a mandolin", or "play a mandolin like a mandolin" (meaning, "play a mandolin the way we play the mandolin"). Also, the setup and design of mandolins have often developed to service that particular sound, and you get "banjo killers" that are all initial attack and very little sustain, and to my ears, don't really sound that much different from the banjos they are intended to "kill".

Incidentally, finger vibrato actually increases sustain by exciting the harmonics. And the more harmonics shine through, the better the "tone" (imho).

There are two forms of electric guitar style vibrato (and string bending): 1 - you can push the string towards the bass side, or 2) you can pull it towards the treble. Interestingly, I use mostly push vibrato/bending when playing right-handed (frett with the LH), but when playing LHed (right hand fretting), pulling-vibrato comes more naturally.

Here's a tip, and an incentive to get out of first position. Vibrato gets easier when you put some distance between the note and the nut. You get so much better results putting the finger English on a B note at the 9th fret D-string than you will at the 2nd fret on the A-string. The further you pursue #the "tone" issue, the more and more you find that you'll be playing up the neck and frequently changing positions. You may develop a preference for the sound you get fingering a vibratoes note with certain fingers over others - and that may require you to change your hand position. (re flute: think of pitches that can have several different fingerings, each with subtle differences in either tone or actual pitch or restrictions as to how you can ornament that pitch.)

You can't do vibrato if you are using excessive finger pressure. So working on vibrato can help you begin to find "the point of optimal finger pressure".

Niles Hokkanen

PS: Doing tremolo on doublestops while applying vibrato is even more difficult, but it can really produce a luminous sound.
http://www.gosimpsons.com/ProdImages/krustysealkeychain.jpg

[kyblue]

do what feels good. Tremolo, vibrate, wiggle, it's all good.

I suddenly feel the urge to do all the above...
maybe right here in my office chair!
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[cyclonemandolin]

Could anyone give me some tips for improving a non-pleasant tremolo?

[mandolooter]

[QUOTE]Could anyone give me some tips for improving a non-pleasant tremolo?

Hours and hours of practice helps as does the right pick...I use a stiff pick thats almost round...the large surface area glides better for me. Everyone has there own preferences but using a wrist action vs. a forearm action works better for me.

[swinginmandolins]

[QUOTE]Could anyone give me some tips for improving a non-pleasant tremolo?

What mandolooter said and work through this book Evan Marshall Duo Style (http://elderly.com/books/items/650-1.htm) I've been in this book for over a year now and still learning and improving. Work through at a slow tempo with a metronome, and you should see improvement. At least I did.

[Santiago]

Listen to the folks who do it well and try to imitate their technique.

[grendahlk]

Hey there, Mando Lynn! I too am a classically trained flutist turned mandolin addict! Would like to chat with you offline about your experience so far with the mandolin!

Sincerely,
Kathleen

[jmcgann]

Can you play tremelo on Flute or Violin or Guitar?

Yes, and it's very common.

On flute it's called flutter tounging; violin (all bowed instruments) and classical guitar use it all the time in classical music.The notation is several diagonal lines through the timing stems. There are also written out tremolos, such as in the Villa Lobos 12 Etudes for guitar, many Barrios pieces, etc.

[Tillmanator]

Can you play tremelo on Flute or Violin or Guitar?

Yes, and it's very common.

On flute it's called flutter tounging; violin (all bowed instruments) and classical guitar use it all the time in classical music.The notation is several diagonal lines through the timing stems. There are also written out tremolos, such as in the Villa Lobos 12 Etudes for guitar, many Barrios pieces, etc.
I respectfully beg to differ with you. Flutter tonguing is flutter tonguing. It has nothing to do with tremolo. A tremolo is like a bunch of 32nd notes between two different notes. And it's not notated on the stems.... at least for the flute. On flute it's notated with the diagonal bars spanning the space between the two whole notes of the notes that you move between. Or if it's tremolo on half notes, the diagonal bars hook the two bars together, but they don't slash through the stem like in percussion notation.

I am a mando noob, but I've been playing the flute for 30 years.

[Peter Hackman]

Can't say that I use any vibrato, at least not consciously, but I do
use #slides
and drops, and mordents (corresponding to trumpet #lip trills)
much the way I do on guitar, devices that partly depend on sustain, and partly enhace whatever sustain there is.

Tremolo is to be used with economy! I tend to use it too much; playing back things I recorded I sometimes cringe - why did I tremulate there, instead of going for a snappier phrasing?

Three players come to mind when I reflect on this topic. One is Matt Flinner who uses hardly any tremelo at all.

Another is David Grisman who also uses this device quite sparingly and to great dynamic effect; it appears tht he often slants his pick so as to take the tone down to /I've used this expression before) a throaty whisper. A third player is Sam Bush who sometimes heats things up considerably with his tremolo. These players, of course, all belong to the "new acoustic" category; I don't know where your interests lie.

Also give Mike Marshall a listen; his soloing on Minor Swing (Wine Country) has some nice shakes.

[mandocrucian]

Re: flute

So what do you call it when you "roll the R's" ala Ian Anderson/Tull? Also, when humming through the flute, I often get this weird, uncomfortable resonance in my ear - what's the deal here?

<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>BTW: will swap mando instruction for flute instruction should any flute-players-gone-mando come through No. VA. Or, if anyone wants to get rid of excess archery gear.</span>

NH

[jmcgann]

A tremolo is like a bunch of 32nd notes between two different notes.

Kind of like a trill (which I know is interpreted differently for different eras)?

Flutter tounging would be multiple attacks on a single note (although it can be used on consecutive notes as well)- rapid attacks on a single pitch would correspond to mando tremolo, which was the point I was trying to make to Mr. Mahoney. I stand corrected on the specific lingo used for flute, thanks Lynn!

The tremolo definition and it's notation is the same thing for violin (and the rest of the bowed family) and the guitar as well as mandolin, though. Flutter tounge on flute is analagous to mando tremolo.

Mandos with good sustain can be milked for tone longer (and a little subtle vibrato can help there)without having to use tremolo. All mandos are not created equal as far as duration of sustain goes, but let's face it, wind players and string players have it all over us for sustain! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

Two favorite Andy Statman mando features on jazz ballads with wonderful tremolo: "Barbara in the Morning" from "Flatbush Waltz" CD, and "Stardust" (an epic, incredible portrait of melodic variation, interpretation, and improvisation) with Peter Erskine, Buell Neidlinger and Richard Greene on "Buellgrass Across The Tracks" (reissue of "Big Day at Ojai" on vinyl). Tremolo can be an amazingly expressive technique.

[AlanN]

I would give my left orb for a copy of Big Day at Ojai. If anyone is willing to do that, we can horse trade...

[mandolooter]

buy it here (http://www.k2b2.com/across_the_tracks.html)

I didn't but it sez ya can.... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[AlanN]

Thanks very much.

[mandolooter]

Hey....keep the left orb, I was just being nice...:p

[jmcgann]

Now if only we could get Swingrass '83, with that killer Andy solo on Thelonious Monk's "Skippy", on CD!

[Tillmanator]

Re: flute

So what do you call it when you "roll the R's" ala Ian Anderson/Tull? #Also, when humming through the flute, I often get this weird, uncomfortable resonance in my ear - what's the deal here?

<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>BTW: will swap mando instruction for flute instruction should any flute-players-gone-mando come through No. VA. Or, if anyone wants to get rid of excess archery gear.</span>

NH
That "rolling of the R" like Ian Anderson of Tull is indeed flutter tonguing. As for the strange buzzing when you sing into the flute.... I have felt that too when doing weird stuff for a Contemporary Chamber Ensemble I play with.

I'm going to liken it to the beats that happen between two mando strings when they're not exactly in tune with one another. I'm sure you're familiar with that sound. Or perhaps it's an odd overtone that happens when the pitch you sing is different than the one fingered on the flute. And your head is this nice echo chamber right there! Those are the only possibilities that I can think of.

Or maybe your ear is supersensitive to certain frequencies?