Cleaning up & minor tweaking

[LKN2MYIS]

Okay, need some advice (again).

Just took back from my folks home an old bowl back mando. My father bought it, must have been 1960, and it was old then. Hung on a wall for almost 50 years, never touched.

It obviously needs some clean-up and possible minor work, and I'd like to attempt to do it myself as a SMALL project. I'm attaching photos I took.

The issues I see:
1) Tuning buttons are FILTHY
2) Frets sticking out a bit on one side, and obviously short on the other
3) May need a new nut
4) Possible cracks in bowl (don't know how to tell if the scratches are actually cracks

Don't know anything about the mando - no labels, etc., just the "Bell" stamped tailpiece with NMSC below it.

Don't even know what it's made out of.

Are the issues above minor enough for a neophyte like me tl attempt? And, if so, how? )Particularly the cleaning part, this is one filthy instrument.)

[LKN2MYIS]

And

[LKN2MYIS]

and REAL dirty tuning buttons - not just yellowed, but dirty

[LKN2MYIS]

real dirty, and possibly cracked

[LKN2MYIS]

and frets sticking out

[LKN2MYIS]

close up of a possible crack - best shot I could do

[LKN2MYIS]

And the last shot.

Any directions on what and how to clean and repair, and any information about the instrument at all would be greatly appreciated.

AND - how scared should I be in trying to do this?

[Martin Jonas]

As long as the action is OK, this seems to be a basic, but fundamentally healthy bowlback. I don't think that scratch in the back is a crack, but keep an eye on it. Typically, the bowl would separate along the joints rather than have cracks within a stave, unless there has been a sharp localised impact damage (which yours doesn't seem to have). The bridge got mutilated at some stage. It would have been longer on both ends originally. Probably still functional now, but you may be tempted to carve a new bridge.

As far as cleaning is concerned, the builders will be better placed to answer that, but I have had good success on even fairly dirty instruments with using clean soft cloths and cotton wool buds dampened with very small amounts of warm water only, if necessary with a bit of washing up liquid. Don't use too much finger pressure, don't wipe the cloth over the dirty surface, just dab it on, and dry with a second cloth immediately afterwards. On the tuner hardware, you may need something like WD40, again in minute quantities on cotton buds rather than sprayed directly onto the mandolin, and dried off again immediately afterwards. Frets sticking out is fairly normal. If not too extreme, it doesn't bother me when playing. If it does bother you, carefully file the ends flush with the finger board, making sure not to mark the wood.

I don't think this instrument has much commercial value, so if you get it wrong, it wouldn't be disastrous, apart of course that one should treat any old instrument with a certain respect. Should be fun when cleaned up and strung up, though: bowlbacks are great!

Martin

[LKN2MYIS]

Thanks for the suggestions.

One thing about the frets - filing the hanging end might not be the answer, as they do not come to the end of the fretboard on the other side. Looks to me like they should be 'tapped' in at the longer side so they become almost flush with both sides.

And - any suggestions for getting the nut out? Just tapping it from the side until it slides out?

As you can see from the front face photo, much of the inlay on the "E" strings side has been worn away. The bride is bowed in towards the neck.

[Bill Snyder]

I suppose trying to tap the frets from the ends might work if they are bar frets but if they are more modern frets with tangs it sounds like a bad idea. Perhaps Paul Hostetter or someone else with considerable repair experience will chime in.

[LKN2MYIS]

Well, I don't think that they are 'modern' frets. This thing has to be a hundred years old.

About the bridge - since it is a non-adjustable REAL old bridge, how do I know what would be an appropriate replacement for it? I'm guessing I can't just throw anything on there (or can I)?

[JeffD]

#Should be fun when cleaned up and strung up, though: bowlbacks are great!
True-er words have rarely been spoken.

[Bill Snyder]

Well, I don't think that they are 'modern' frets. #This thing has to be a hundred years old.
You are probably right about them being bar frets but apparently modern style "T" frets have been around for a long time. From Frank Ford's site frets.com

"In fact, bar frets were about 40 years obsolete when Martin finally discontinued them in 1934!"

That would suggest that modern frets were available sometime before 1900.

[LKN2MYIS]

That's amazing!



Is there a way to tell if they are bar frets or not?

[Bill Snyder]

It would appear from your photo that you can see the end of the frets. Take a look. If they are sort of "T" shaped like this
http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/headerimage/FretwireDrawing.gif
they are modern frets.
If they look like you could flip them over and they would still fit the slot they are bar frets.
Is that as clear as mud? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[LKN2MYIS]

Bill -

My only comment about the clarity is that my
eyes are 56 years old!

GREAT diagram, BTW.

I think it should clean up nicely. The wood on the back looks beautiful.

NOW - do I just 'tap' the nut out or would it be glued in?

[Bill Snyder]

The nut may have a bit of glue on it but I would not hesitate to give it a light tap anyway to see if it breaks free.
Oh and while I do occasionally draw illustrations for my posts I can not take credit for the above. It is copied from the Luthier's Mercantile website. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[LKN2MYIS]

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

I'm going to try and clean it up a bit, then get the courage to tap the frets, tap the nut, get a new bridge, and see how it sounds.

Just need a bit of time to get up my courage.

[Bill Snyder]

BTW in the interest of full disclosure I am not a luthier or a repair person. I have built a few instruments for myself and one of my sons and I have worked on some old, cheap guitars (such as replacing the nuts, refinishing, etc...) but only ones that I own. But so far so good.
If someone like John Hamlett or Paul Hostetter or any one of several other real builders/repairmen comes along and suggests a different path you and I both can learn something.

[LKN2MYIS]

The only accountability here is mine.

I've adjusted a few truss rods on guitars, fixed a few loose screws on machine heads, but that's about it.

Just really like to give it a shot, and this seems like a good opportunity. Mando didn't cost me anything, doesn't appear to have any inherent value - so - why not?

[brunello97]

I've purchased some vg ebony and bone bowlback bridges from a nice fellow down in Florida, Roy Johnston, who makes them. #I can pass along his contact information if you are interested, send me a PM.

I agree with Martin on this. It appears to be a modest American bowl in quite decent shape and worth getting playable. My limited experience has shown that these can be quite delightful in sound and playability if the necks have remained true (as yours appears to.) I have a few old bowls with these inset tuners-they have tended to be of good quality.

I'd seek some sound advice on the fret realignment. I've gently tapped some loose ones into place, but also have had to pull and resituate others. The pros here should have #more experienced advice. Paul, John, Rick etc. are HOF types and extremely generous with their contributions.

The standard stump speech requires caution on string gauge. Extra light strings would be the safe way to go.

If all goes well Jim Garber can swear you in to the Loyal Order of the Bowl.

Mick

[LKN2MYIS]

Mick -

I've sent you a PM - thanks in advance.

I am pretty excited about having a playable bowl back. I think I'll be more excited when it's in better shape.

I'll tap a few of the frets GENTLY and see how it goes. If not, I've got no issue with taking it to a repair guy to spruce up.

Any idea what woods this might be made out of? Back almost looks like Brazilian rosewood.

[Jim Garber]

If all goes well Jim Garber can swear you in to the Loyal Order of the Bowl.
Duly sworn... possession is 9/10th of membership.

Jim

[LKN2MYIS]

I accept this honor with all the dignity I can muster.

I promise to try and do right by this joyous weight, and realize that it is indeed a priviledge and not a right.

I accept guidance from those above me with due respect. I am never too old to learn, if not be taught.

Thank you from the bottom of my bowl (back).

[Martin Jonas]

Just a couple of thoughts:

Frets: I hadn't appreciated yours had slipped like that. The more common reason for the ends sticking out is that the wood has dried out an shrunk and the metal hasn't, leading to the ends sticking out on both sides. Yours are a bit different, presumably a gradual slipping under the influence of decades of gravitational pull while hanging on the wall. As long as the frets still cover all eight strings, I'd nevertheless be tempted to file them flush rather than try to tap them -- I fear you will not manage to keep them level otherwise and may even have them pop out completely. Either way, you'd have to level and dress all frets (which may not be a bad idea anyway).

Bridge: You could just try to carve one freehand out of a block of ebony, modelled on your current one. Otherwise, a decent source for suitable bridge blanks is Cafe member Dave Hynds (http://www.mandolinluthier.com/repro-bridges.htm) in France. All of the bridges listed in the first group on that page (from "Loveri" to "de Meglio") are of the same basic design as yours and just differ in the decoration. All will do -- just pick the one that's most similar to the remnants of yours or alternatively one that takes your fancy. You'll want to specify a bone saddle, rather than brass. Dave will make a pretty high blank; you'll have to lower it to your required action yourself.

Wood: Brazilian rosewood is probably right -- it was much cheaper back then and used on even fairly modest instruments.

Good luck, and welcome to the Order!

Martin

[JEStanek]

I would recommend you not use WD40 on those tuners. Paul Hostetter posted a very nice set of instructions in this thread. (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=32383) The Tri-Flow with teflon won't leave an oil behind to trap dust and make gunk in there. When I ever get around to trying to service up my old bowlback (if you have one that's not playable are you a member of the Order of the Bowl or just a Bowl-sier?) this is the method I'll use for servicing the tuners.

Jamie

[Bill Snyder]

I think the suggestion of WD-40 in this instance was as a cleaning agent for the buttons, but I might have misunderstood.
Jamie is right, don't use the WD-40 as a lubricant.

[Martin Jonas]

Indeed, the suggestion was to use WD-40 as a cleaning agent. You're going to have to get rid of existing gunk and Tri-Flow is not going to be much help with that. Also, these are enclosed tuners, so you might be grateful for something that can penetrate. Paul's old post was about lubrication of essentially clean open tuners, which isn't quite the present situation.

I've used WD-40 on several old bowlbacks to good effect, and with no subsequent lasting odour or build-up of gunge, but of course it's up to you what you feel comfortable with trying.

Martin

[JEStanek]

No I misread (or under read the post). Apologies.

Jamie

[LKN2MYIS]

Just a couple of thoughts:

Frets: I hadn't appreciated yours had slipped like that. The more common reason for the ends sticking out is that the wood has dried out an shrunk and the metal hasn't, leading to the ends sticking out on both sides. Yours are a bit different, presumably a gradual slipping under the influence of decades of gravitational pull while hanging on the wall. As long as the frets still cover all eight strings, I'd nevertheless be tempted to file them flush rather than try to tap them -- I fear you will not manage to keep them level otherwise and may even have them pop out completely. Either way, you'd have to level and dress all frets (which may not be a bad idea anyway).

Bridge: You could just try to carve one freehand out of a block of ebony, modelled on your current one. Otherwise, a decent source for suitable bridge blanks is Cafe member Dave Hynds (http://www.mandolinluthier.com/repro-bridges.htm) in France. All of the bridges listed in the first group on that page (from "Loveri" to "de Meglio") are of the same basic design as yours and just differ in the decoration. All will do -- just pick the one that's most similar to the remnants of yours or alternatively one that takes your fancy. You'll want to specify a bone saddle, rather than brass. Dave will make a pretty high blank; you'll have to lower it to your required action yourself.

Wood: Brazilian rosewood is probably right -- it was much cheaper back then and used on even fairly modest instruments.

Good luck, and welcome to the Order!

Martin
Well, if I just file the frets, they won't covoer all 8 - possibly 7.

If a tapping doesn't do it, I think the local repair guy will have work to do.

As far as the tuners, there doesn't appear to be any place to lubricate them anyway. My concern with them is if they simply don't hold anymore, which I will test shortly.

Brave new world for me.

[LKN2MYIS]

UPDATE:

Okay, today I took off all the strings (furry green ends at the loops of the A and E courses.

Cleaned it up as best I could.

Removed the nut.

Tapped in the frets (they are bars).

So - I would think that I would need to put some type of lubricant on the machine heads (TriFlo?). It appears that it would have to be put in at the base of the winding posts on the front of the headstock. Am I on target with this?

The nut, by the way, is the tiniest I have ever seen and looks plastic. The bridge is bowed in the center towards the sound hole.

Contacted a recommendation to have a new bridge made (I also need a new nut - any ideas?

I also tried cleaning out the inside of the body with a towel. Not a whole lot of success.

I know these are only small steps I've taken, but oddly enough they are rewarding.

I appreciate the continued help and support.

[JEStanek]

I wonder if anyone else would recommend removing the tuner plates to clean/lubricate them inside? I would be tempted or at least as for someone with bowl experience if this is a safe idea? Sounds like your making steady, prudent progress.

Jamie

[LKN2MYIS]

Well, slow and steadied (or, my interpretation, terrified).

I had thought about unscrewing the tuners and the tailpiece, but was worried about the condition of the screws.

I'll listen to any and all advice. I'd prefer to do all of this once, correctly, and then just enjoy my first bowl back.

[Bill Snyder]

$2.00 + shipping will get you a bone nut from International Violin. You have to shape, cut, polish and notch it. For $2.00 each get a few in case your 1st one is not satisfactory.

[Martin Jonas]

I wonder if anyone else would recommend removing the tuner plates to clean/lubricate them inside? I would be tempted or at least as for someone with bowl experience if this is a safe idea? Sounds like your making steady, prudent progress.
My mother has a vintage mandolin of mine on permanent loan, with closed tuners. When the tuners seized up, my father took them off, cleaned and lubricated them and put them back on, which he found very straightforward. He is a professionally-trained metal worker, but has no experience with mandolins or indeed instruments in general. So, although I haven't done it in person, I would think it's not likely to be a big problem, as long as the gears are in decent condition and it's just a question of cleaning rather than of wear or abuse.

Martin

[Bob A]

Bowl grunge: toss some rice into the bowl and shake it around. Dump it out. Works best if the rice is uncooked.

Screw holes: if the replaced screws have stripped out the wood and will not hold, a few splinters of wood shoved into the hole as fillers will generally hold screws in place.

Cracks in bowl? The way to find out is to place lips over crack, and suck. If you sense air movement, it's coming thru the crack. If not, you just look sort of odd.

[KNP String Band Mando]

The rear end of the bowlback looks like some nice Rosewood, from the days before Martin used up the whole worlds supply http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[LKN2MYIS]

Between the knowledge and humor, I'm glad I've been accepted to the Order Of The Bowl.

[LKN2MYIS]

I simply could not believe it.

Following great advice, I poured a cup of uncooked white rice into the bowl and shook it for several minutes. It came out dark gray! Unbelievable.

On a darker note (get it?), I took the mando into a dark room and shined a very bright flashlight into the bowl. It appears that one of the strips BETWEEN (or that holds?) the rosewood staves together has a little light shining through it. Doesn't appear to be an actual seam separation, but more like that wood has almost decayed through. Again, not the stave itself, but the would joining the two staves.

So - what are my options?

AND - how hard would it be for me, a neophyte, to replace the frets? They are barred can be removed easily. Is this a big for me?

[Bill Snyder]

The likelyhood of finding repalacement frets is probably slim. There was a thread here a few months back of someone looking for replacement material for bar frets.
Using modern frets would be a lot of work. Your options for that is a fingerboard replacement or filling in and reslotting the existing board. Neither of these is a simple task.

[LKN2MYIS]

Thanks for the info.

It appears that this little guy will be headed to a local repair guy for an estimate.

[Martin Jonas]

Why do you need new frets? Are the old ones very worn? Given the value of the instrument and the cost of a refretting job with replacement bar frets, I would suggest you stick with what you have if at all possible. If there is insufficient fret height left for levelling and dressing, it is common to raise the existing frets by adding shims into the bottom of the slots. This way, you don't need a new fingerboard and don't need replacement bar fret wire (which is a pain to get in exactly the right width).

Martin

[LKN2MYIS]

The frets are VERY worn, as are some spots on the fingerboard itself.

When I re-positioned the frets, I examined each one. Some of them are simply way too worn, almost to the point of being level with the fretboard.

I just thought that if it wasn't too difficult a job, I could attempt it myself.

[Bill Snyder]

Take a look at this thread (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=22604;hl=bar) on bar frets.

[LKN2MYIS]

Yep, too big a job for me. Thanks for the links.