Rundown on top wood

[fatt-dad]

When building a mandolin there are considerations on bracing and sound hole. If the carved gradations remain similar, just what is the affect of the top wood? I know that Red Spruce is a denser wood and that may affect tone. Just how much difference does a similarly-made instrument sound if the only difference is the species of top wood? Is it going on too much of a "flyer" to get a bluegrass mandolin made with Alpine spruce or something other than Red spruce?

Can anybody offer an opinion on the trends expected from different woods? If I wanted a powerful and projective mandolin sound with a good chop would my only choice be Red spruce?

Help~!

f-d

[Spruce]

"If I wanted a powerful and projective mandolin sound with a good chop would my only choice be Red spruce?"

I've heard and played great traditional bluegrass mandolins made from every species of spruce, as well as cedar and redwood...

It's all in the what graduations and archings you apply to the material you're working with...

[Chris Baird]

The material/acoustic properties of the wood can have just as much to do with tone as graduations and arching, BUT, species is not an indication of any particular material or acoustic property. You have to take each piece of wood (and consequently each mandolin)as it is... which may or may not be typical for either the species of the components or the builder.
Wood generalizations only work when coupled with a particular builder. And, of course, only that particular builder can accurately make the generalizations.

[fatt-dad]

So, does a builder learn to "master" red spruce (for example) and then branch out to another species? No doubt that experience plays a HUGE part in this! I just wonder if a similar effect can be coaxed out of different wood choices do you guys (gals) learn all as you go or focus on one wood property and then "graduate" to others?

Here's why I ask. If a customer says, "Gee, I'd like to have a cedar top, cause I played a buddy's and I loved it" do you take the order even if you've just made one or two with cedar in the past? Or do you suggest going to the guy's buddy's builder? Or do you figure that you can coax the best sound irrespective of the wood choice? And wouldn't you "expect" some tonal differences from one type of wood to the next?

I'm just naturally curious how it works. . . .

f-d

[Chris Baird]

The key to understanding top woods (or back woods)is in knowing that there can be immense variation among the same species. A good builder won't neccesarily "master" Red Spruce but rather master choosing and working with a particular wood that has material properties which match that builders arching and building style.
#If a builder works according to species he/she is bound to end up with a product of varying quality. If a builder works according to material properties that builder will always choose the right woods irregardless of the species used.
# Species only gives a builder a vague generalization, material properties give hard facts that can be worked with. The material properties of various species overlap so that, in some instances, they can be substituted for each other with no discernable tonal difference.

[kestrel]

What does irregardless mean?

[Chris Baird]

Main Entry: ir·re·gard·less
Pronunciation: "ir-i-'gärd-l&s
Function: adverb
Etymology: probably blend of irrespective and regardless
nonstandard : REGARDLESS
usage Irregardless originated in dialectal American speech in the early 20th century. Its fairly widespread use in speech called it to the attention of usage commentators as early as 1927. The most frequently repeated remark about it is that "there is no such word." There is such a word, however. It is still used primarily in speech, although it can be found from time to time in edited prose. Its reputation has not risen over the years, and it is still a long way from general acceptance. Use regardless instead.


I think I'll stick with irregardless just to taunt the hecklers.

[Steve Cantrell]

Hahaha. Excellent, Chris.

[MikeB]

Chris, you had that definition all ready, just waiting to pounce on the first "heckler," didn't you? Cool. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Lee Callicutt]

He don't not care. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Dave Cohen]

Fatt, once again, "chance favors the prepared mind". If you want some preparation for some kind of rational understanding of "tonewoods", I suggest the following:

1. Daniel W. Haines; "The Essential Mechanical Properties of Wood Prepared for Musical Instruments"; Catgut Acoustical Society Journal, 4, No. 2 (Series II), pp 20-32 (Nov., 2000).

2. Voichita Bucur wrote a large volume on the subject, if you want to spend $300 just like that.

Haines showed quite a bit of data. In fact, just enough to demonstrate that the physical properties of woods vary as much within a species as they do between species. When you are ready for a quiz on the Haines paper, I will give you some further assignments.

[Rick Crenshaw]

That's all well and good, but I'll tell... after a pretty good search of Englemann and Adirondack (Red Spruce) topped mandolins, you will NOT be able to convince me that they don't possess some pretty consistant tonal qualities. Perhaps it is the choice of the wood in each case, but I never heard an Englemann topped mandolin with the 'pop' and 'dryness' of Red Spruce. Consequently, only on very old Red Spruce tops did I find a buttery, chocolately, smooth, dark tone like Englemann can often possess. I did find mediocre examples of each... and granted, when new, they sounded different but not greatly so.

I am convinced, however, that there are tone colors associated with each species, given that good examples of each are used. Maybe if I built more mandolins I would discover otherwise, but as of now I've played Englemann vs. Adirondack mandolins built by Gibson, Daley, Altman, Collings, Krishot, and others. There is usually certain tonal characteristics of the species that come through in each pairing, regardless of builder. They may all sound different, but the Englemann comes through and the Adirondack comes through in each comparison.

Then again, maybe I'm an idiot with predisposed opinions and biased sampling. Nevertheless, I'm convinced there IS A DIFFERENCE.

[Spruce]

"That's all well and good, but I'll tell... after a pretty good search of Englemann and Adirondack (Red Spruce) topped mandolins, you will NOT be able to convince me that they don't possess some pretty consistant tonal qualities."

You (or anyone else) couldn't pick out a Red Spruce billet in a lineup of Engelmann/European/Red billets....

What makes you think you can pick it out after it's been made into a mandolin??

[Bill Halsey]

You (or anyone else) couldn't pick out a Red Spruce billet in a lineup of Engelmann/European/Red billets....

Aw shucks, Bruce... If I order Red, how do I know what I'm gettin'? (Just kiddin') http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Seriously, is the standing timber the only way to tell?

Just as seriously, I may be ordering some Red from you; the stuff we've cut out here is full of bugs. Yuk.

[MandoChop]

I am no expert by any means, but my question is are there any double-blind studies re: tone of the tonewoods? I know there are "expert" ears out there, and I can definitely hear some beautiful tones coming out of old, Red Spruce mandos - but sometimes I wonder if it's more of the age of the instrument, possibly graduation of top, or perhaps other variables that account for "that tone". I would love to see variables remain constant (on a few mandos - i.e. Red Spruce, Englemann, Sitka, Cedar) except for the top wood, and have several models tested in a blindfolded manner. Is this too much to ask, or would this totally dampen all these discussions regarding mando's tone and squelch many cases of MAS?

[Paul Hostetter]

That's all well and good, but I'll tell... after a pretty good search of Englemann [sic] and Adirondack (Red Spruce) topped mandolins, you will NOT be able to convince me that they don't possess some pretty consistant [sic] tonal qualities.

Remarkably like spruce! Wow!

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Paul Hostetter]

That's all well and good, but I'll tell... after a pretty good search of Englemann [sic] and Adirondack (Red Spruce) topped mandolins, you will NOT be able to convince me that they don't possess some pretty consistant [sic] tonal qualities.

Remarkably like spruce! Wow, what an insight!

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Any double-blind studies re: tone of the tonewoods? You're joking, of course.

I know there are "expert" ears out there, and I can definitely hear some beautiful tones coming out of old, Red Spruce mandos - but sometimes I wonder if it's more of the age of the instrument, possibly graduation of top, or perhaps other variables that account for "that tone".

You just have a beer and think about that for three or four more minutes.

I would love to see variables remain constant (on a few mandos - i.e. Red Spruce, Englemann [sic], Sitka, Cedar) except for the top wood, and have several models tested in a blindfolded manner. Is this too much to ask, or would this totally dampen all these discussions regarding mando's [sic] tone and squelch many cases of MAS?

It would dampen nothing, but it would also mean absolutely nothing. For the 3,203,477th time, all you have to do is look at about 100,000 Martin dreadnoughts to see how much species means: 0. If it did, they'd all sound alike.

[Rick Crenshaw]

You (or anyone else) couldn't pick out a Red Spruce billet in a lineup of Engelmann/European/Red billets....

What makes you think you can pick it out after it's been made into a mandolin??
No, I couldn't. So you're saying there is no tonal characteristics to each species. I don't believe that. Looking at the appearance is not my bailywick (sp?). Listening is.

Let me ask you, why do you sell the different species if there is no difference? For that matter, why would any builder choose anything but one good source of a fairly consistent spruce?

[Antlurz]

Here's what Roger Siminoff has to say about it:

Notes:

1) Which soundboard wood is best for you? Generally speaking... Sitka spruce provides a full, bright, tone. German silver spruce has a full clear, bright tone. Adirondack red spruce is generally "warm" with clear bass and treble balance. Western fir typically delivers a very bright "bark" tone and is a bit stronger in the treble registers. Redwood, an often overlooked soundboard material for mandolins, provides the excellent warm, deep, "dark" tonal quality typically associated with older mandolins. We also have Western Red Cedar that provides warmth with clarity and brightness.

Irregardless, http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif I'd expect this to be only generalities.

Ron

[Rick Crenshaw]

...For the 3,203,477th time, all you have to do is look at about 100,000 Martin dreadnoughts to see how much species means: 0. If it did, they'd all sound alike.
Who am I gonna believe, you or my lying ears?

Look, I can hear differences in Adi and Sitka tops in some guitar models. #

I understand that the carving, bracing, grain, etc. all affect tone. #But I think there are some difference which are usually present in some species more than others.

Look, why don't you make a top out of slash pine? #How about if you used pinon pine? #There'd be a heck of a difference in the wood and the tone and you know it. #It's just a matter of degree. #But THERE IS A DIFFERENCE and that difference extends to spruces that grow in certain regions and conditions (hint: #this usually leads to speciation over extended periods of time). #Voila, different spruce; different environment; different tonal characteristics. #It's not that hard to follow. #

You can't prove it doesn't exhibit differences any more than I can prove it does. #You have more experience building - I'll accord you tons of respect in that regard. #I have some emperical data from my search. #I FEEL it and HEAR it. #I've already admitted to possible bias... but I swear in my heart of hearts I do believe that on the whole, Englemann and Red Spruce sound different carved and braced to their best characteristics.

You won't admit that... but I think you know that it must be true. #You won't convince me otherwise. #I've EXPERIENCED IT!

New edited in section: #I just got through playing my Sitka Daley and my Adirondack (Red Spruce) Daley. #I asked Sim for the different top woods but then told him to make the best sounding mandolin with a bluegrass tone that he could. #They both sound Wonderful. #The Sitka looks and sounds a lot like Steffey's though his is Englemann and being played by him so it sounds more smooth and round toned! #The Red Spruce sounds more midrangey, Loar like. #Sparkley, dry, hollow. #Sitka is more mellow but still bright but doesn't have the dry hollow pop of the Red. The Sitka to me sounds more like a good mix of Red and Englemann. Not as much pop and sparkle as Red, not as buttery, smooth, and round as Englemann.

So... I just proved that the spruces sound different and they follow the examples that I found in my search... in a general way. #So now, bow before me and admit that I am right. #I just proved it, right? #Couldn't you hear the difference? I should write a book! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Michael Lewis]

Good wood is good wood, and I have some of the best of each variety. Spruce Bruce is right, you can't pick our a variety by looking at it, except for sitka, sometimes.

:cool:

[Paul Hostetter]

Look, I can hear differences in Adi and Sitka tops in some guitar models...But I think there are some difference which are usually present in some species more than others...I have some emperical [sic] data from my search. I FEEL it and HEAR it... I swear in my heart of hearts I do believe that on the whole, Englemann [sic] and Red Spruce sound different carved and braced to their best characteristics...You won't convince me otherwise. I've EXPERIENCED IT!

Oh, well then, what's left to discuss? You're a goner.

[Paul Hostetter]

Look, why don't you make a top out of slash pine? How about if you used pinon pine? There'd be a heck of a difference in the wood and the tone and you know it.

Given that I have heard mandolins made of doodoo-grade paneling pine and so on, what do you think I know? Let me pose some questions for you:

What on earth is "speciation over extended periods of time?" What could that possibly mean to a luthier?

What's this? White pine?

http://www.lutherie.net/orvillebeautifulspruce.jpg

[Fretbear]

Dry Hollow Pop....there's a name for a band....

[Hans]

Well, I hesitate to step in here, but I have built quite a few mandolins with West Virginia red, Sitka, Italian, German and Engelmann spuce. From left to right, they generally go from the fundementalness of red to the complexity of German and Englemann.
Now Bruce is right, you could line up mandolins of each species, and it might be hard to tell which was which. The point is if you tell someone that this mandolin is red and hear how fundemental it sounds, and this one is German and hear how complex it sounds, they will begin to understand the difference. But lets take red and German as comparison as they are on the opposite ends of the spectrum. Red will be very fundemental, with that "bell like" treble, and make a good Loar copy when mated to the proper maple. German on the other end will be very complex, full, rich, lush, and sweet with a great POP. Italian is fairly complex with piercing trebles, and Sitka is between red and Italian, somewhat warmer than red. Englemann is generally warmer than German.
Now I'm sure there are other opinions...these are mine.

[Rick Crenshaw]

Thank you, Hans. I agree as to SOUND. You can usually HEAR the difference in the types. I never claimed, nor would I claim, that I could tell which subspecies, variety, or whatever you wish to call it, was which by SIGHT. I don't care what it looks like. And I will gladly concede that I cannot tell which variety is which by sight. But one can hear differences even if those differences vary from piece to piece.

Fatt-Dad, if you are a first time builder, don't listen to me. Take the advice of the experienced luthiers. I built a Stew-Mac F5 from a kit. It is Sitka... and I believe that it wouldn't have mattered the type of spruce. I don't have, didn't have, the experience to make best use of the wood. My kit came out sounding great. Better than most Pac-Rim mandolins I've heard. Not as good sounding as my Daleys, but more than good and has a very pleasant and unique tone. In fact, comparing my Sitka mandolin to the Sitka Daley, you'd think they weren't of the same spruce family.

But I still believe that an experienced builder making the best mandolin in his/her style that he/she can make will produce different sounding mandolins from the different types of spruce... AND that each type of spruce will have common characteristics particular to that type.

Gentlemen, I've not meant to be a pain in the neck here, but I do disagree with you regarding the tone color of the different woods. I yield the floor and will have no more to say on the subject as my point has been made and all I know on the subject has been expressed.

Flame away. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[kestrel]

I wasn't heckling. I've asked that question of many people, and that's the best answer I've heard. Evolution of language, I suppose. Thanks for the answer, irregardless.

[fatt-dad]

Summary: Different builders have different experiences. To the extent there are audible trends, there are exceptions.

I just wonder what makes a casual picker "want" one wood type over another? I would imagine for a versatile instrument, maybe the best answer is to just put your faith in the builder. . . . Lord knows it would be difficult to make an "engineering" decision in anticipation of an outcome.

Am I getting close?

fatt not-likely-to-build-a-mandolin-beyond-my-dusty-IV-kit-anyhow dad

[Jerry Byers]

I just wonder what makes a casual picker "want" one wood type over another?
Because Loar used red spruce for the F-5. It goes along the same lines that everybody wants a F-5 because Bill played one.

[Dave Cohen]

One problem with descriptions like "fundamental" and "fundamentalness" is that they are possibly descriptive of strings, but not really descriptive of the wood itself. Strings are harmonic. Well, nearly so. Harmonic means, among other things, that they have a "fundamental" or first harmonic mode of motion, and higher harmonic modes of motion for which the frequencies are integral multiples of the first harmonic ("fundamental") frequency, and the wavelengths are rational fractions of the first harmonic wavelength. Most players know that intuitively from playing and tuning with "harmonics" on strings. Now comes the problem: None of the other component parts of a stringed instrument are harmonic. As soon as you change from a string to bars, rods, plates, air in cavities, etc., the frequency relations of the various modes of motion are nowhere near harmonic; there is nothing even remotely close to a simple numerical relationship between the frequencies of the various modes. Same deal for the whole instrument; its' modes of motion are the result of the coupled motions of its component parts - and nowhere near harmonic.

So when you talk about "fundamentalness", are you talking about the capabilities of the wood to emphasize the fundamental mode of a string? And which string(s)? When you talk about "complex", are you talking about the capabilities of the wood to emphasize higher string modes? And which ones? If you pluck a string near the "sweet spot", you get relatively stronger fundamental and lower harmonics. If you pluck a string near the bridge, you get relatively stronger higher harmonics. If you pluck a string exactly over the 12th fret, every other harmonic will be weak or absent. If you pluck a string at, say, one fifth of the distance from the bridge to the nut, every fifth harmonic will be weak or absent, and so on. But then, as the note decays, the missing harmonics tend to "grow in". The point of all this is that the intensities of the various string harmonics are greatly affected by where and how the string is plucked. And that effect is one that overwhelms whatever the capabilities of the wood are to influence same. Does that mean that the wood has no influence? No! Never said that. I do hold the opinion that the wood exerts a very subtle influence, whatever it is. And to those who are certain they can hear profound differences, I say "show me the data!"

I've looked at a lot of spectra of mandolins, and haven't seen any evidence of especially strong fundamentals associated w/ particular woods. etc. There certainly are differences, but I don't claim to have them figured out. I guess my problem is with the borrowing of physical concepts like "fundamental" and using them completely incorrectly.

[Chris Baird]

Each species will have its range of material properties. Most good wood suppliers only send out examples of that species which represents the "middle of the road" respectively.

It is possible, however, to have some very soft light weight Red Spruce and some very hard dense Engelmann. My point is that the material properties control the tonal response but species doesn't necessarily dictate material property. So, making a blanket statement that Red Spruce has a certain sound is a bit misleading. It would be more accurate to say that dense/hard top woods have a certain tonal characteristic where as soft/light top woods have another... etc.

[markishandsome]

only on very old Red Spruce tops did I find a buttery, chocolately, smooth, dark tone like Englemann can often possess.

I just did a blindfolded test picking on a stick of butter and a bar of chocolate and let me tell you there sure is a difference in tone http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif .

Slightly more seriously, I don't think the debate here is whether one piece of wood will sound different from another piece of wood, of course it will. The assumption people take issue with is whether there's a one-to-once correspondence between species and tone, of course there isn't. Saying "Norway spruce will sound rich and mellow" is the same as saying "People from Norway are tall and Blond." I'm sure there are many who are, but it's just a stereotype and doesn't hold for every last Norwegian (spruce or countryman). Stereotyping different wood species may provide a rough idea of what to expect when building an instrument out of a certain species of wood, but it doesn't guarantee diddlysquat. You said yourself that you've played red that sounded like engelmann. I think the point some folks here are making is that the spruces are all so close (they are all spruces after all) and the variations within species so wide that formulating these stereotypes just isn't reliable enough to be worth the effort.

[Jerry Byers]

One aspect of the wood that hasn't been addressed yet is response vs. compression (if that is the right term). My understanding is that Engelmann will bottom out long before Red Spruce. Given that Red Spruce tends to be denser, is it possible that the perceived sound or tone differences is due to the ability to load it up more?

[Hans]

#Without going into semantics, harmonics, modes, nodes, bars, rods, plates grads, fundemental, complex, where the string is plucked, etc,etc...
The original question was just changing the top tonewood, leaving all other parameters constant, da-da, da-da...
How 'bout this. This is my experience. Red spruce sounds like one note played on a piano. German sounds like a chord. Neither is bettr'n the other, just different. Folks that choose one wood over the other on my instruments are doing it for tonal qualities. Hard, soft, medium, I have never been able to make German sound like red and vice-versa.

Yup, fatt-dad, ask a question and you'll get a thousand different answers. Are you getting close?
Close as two atoms, close as two galaxies! # #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Rick Crenshaw]

Each species will have its range of material properties. Most good wood suppliers only send out examples of that species which represents the "middle of the road" respectively.

It is possible, however, to have some very soft light weight Red Spruce and some very hard dense Engelmann. My point is that the material properties control the tonal response but species doesn't necessarily dictate material property. So, making a blanket statement that Red Spruce has a certain sound is a bit misleading. It would be more accurate to say that dense/hard top woods have a certain tonal characteristic where as soft/light top woods have another... etc.
I can buy that. So if one assumes Red Spruce is GENERALLY more dense/hard/stiff than Englemann, one can assume certain general tone colors/characteristics of that variety/specie/subspecie/whatever they are, n'est pas?

[Bill Van Liere]

Dear Hans Brentrup

Thank-you very much for the beautiful Italian (some refer to it as this) top A model mandolin you made and I now own. For an old fiddle tune geek like me, I have never found anything better for playing everything from stately O Carolan pieces to lively Cape Breton reels.

Dear Benjamin R Wilcox

Thank-you very much for the beautiful Red Spruce top F style mandolin (BRW) you made that I play. With it's dry woody bell-like treble tones and plenty of pop, I can usually sweeten any banjo/dobro laden blugrass jam.

It all works for me, hope it does for you too

Bill Van Liere
Horticulturist/Urban Forester and part time Mandolinist

[fatt-dad]

. . . and then along comes carbon fiber.

Thanks for you all's replies. This is interesting!

f-d

[Dave Cohen]

Jerry, the amplitudes of the modes of motion of stringed instrument parts stop well short of the "bottoming out" to which you are referring.

Hans, the "chord vs single note" analogy is possibly even worse from a physical standpoint. I'm sure that you hear something definite. My problem is not with the semantics, but with the physical description. Don't wanna raise your hackles though, so I'll just drop it. Don't know nuthin' 'bout da-da, da-da. Something to do with Idi Amin?

[Spruce]

Well, I hesitate to step in here, but I have built quite a few mandolins with West Virginia red, Sitka, Italian, German and Engelmann spuce. From left to right, they generally go from the fundementalness of red to the complexity of German and Englemann.
Now Bruce is right, you could line up mandolins of each species, and it might be hard to tell which was which. The point is if you tell someone that this mandolin is red and hear how fundemental it sounds, and this one is German and hear how complex it sounds, they will begin to understand the difference. But lets take red and German as comparison as they are on the opposite ends of the spectrum. Red will be very fundemental, with that "bell like" treble, and make a good Loar copy when mated to the proper maple. German on the other end will be very complex, full, rich, lush, and sweet with a great POP. Italian is fairly complex with piercing trebles, and Sitka is between red and Italian, somewhat warmer than red. Englemann is generally warmer than German.
Now I'm sure there are other opinions...these are mine.

This post--in a nutshell--is what it's all about. #

The individual maker's approach as to what he or she is used to in a certain species of spruce in order to produce a certain type of tone, is a valid observation.

If you like what Red Spruce has to offer, don't choose a chunk of soft-to-the-fingernail Engelmann and expect to get the same results...

But don't make a statement like:

"That's all well and good, but I'll tell... after a pretty good search of Englemann and Adirondack (Red Spruce) topped mandolins, you will NOT be able to convince me that they don't possess some pretty consistant tonal qualities."

....because there's a lot of lousy sounding Red Spruce mandolins kicking around out there that hardly "possess some pretty consistant tonal qualities." # #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

"So if one assumes Red Spruce is GENERALLY more dense/hard/stiff than Englemann, one can assume certain general tone colors/characteristics of that variety/specie/subspecie/whatever they are, n'est pas?"

Yeah, you can make that GENERAL observation, but it's hardly always true.
Not by a long shot.

I've seen and milled lots of Engelmann that was as hard-to-the-fingernail as any Red, and would fool any "expert" as to what species it might be.

That is my point.

Hell, there's lots of "Red Spruce" mandolins out there that everyone is raving about the "Red Spruce Tone" on that are actually White Spruce.
White and Red logs are next to impossible to tell apart in the logyard, and there is no way in the world that the White hasn't snuck in there on a regular basis.
Hell, I've probably done it... # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

"Let me ask you, why do you sell the different species if there is no difference?"

I did not say there was no difference. #What I said is that you cannot generalize about the characteristics of the various species....
Big difference....

"For that matter, why would any builder choose anything but one good source of a fairly consistent spruce?"

Great question.

A great strategy for a maker is to get ahold of a whole tree, and dial in the tone you want from instrument to instrument using this (hopefully) fairly consistant material....

That's how I got into this crazy business in the first place. #
I was building mandolins and wanted to find a few hundred billets of the same stuff so I could dial it in over the years....

Then I started hanging out with good mandolin makers, and threw my tools (except for the chainsaw) in the bay.... # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Jim Hilburn]

Way off topic but has anyone ever had any experience with Black Hills spruce?

[Rick Crenshaw]

I see I provided lots of quotable material... good and bad!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Glad I could add some combustible material to this 'debate'. Bruce, we're not that far off in our thinking... I think. But whatever... I've found two mandolins that I'm nuts over and have them in my possession. It would take a bit of cash to get them out of my hands. I worked with one builder... and believe me, Sim Daley was probably sick of me dropping by his shop every time I got within a hundred miles of Nashville. I played every Englemann, Sitka (already had one of his), and Red Spruce mandolin he had available. Chances are 50/50 if someone out there has a Daley made in the last year, I've played on it while in the white. I noticed differences in HIS mandolins made with HIS stock of Sitka, Englemann, and Red Spruce. He'd tell you that tone varies and in all honesty, he knew what I responded to by the time my Red Spruce was built. It's a killer version of the "vintage" Gibsons (with the exception of Reischman's Loar. That's the smoothest sounding Loar I've ever heard. Course that could be HIS touch on the mando.)

Anyways, I've enjoyed this tremendously.

[ab4usa]

Spruce,

When you send a regular customer top wood, do you try to match properties of what you have previously send or is that impossible?

[Paul Hostetter]

A great strategy for a maker is to get ahold of a whole tree, and dial in the tone you want from instrument to instrument using this (hopefully) fairly consistent material....

This illustrates another angle on why good small makers can fall prey to assumptions about various tonewoods. When someone says they use different woods and each has a specific quality that they can discern, what they're really discerning is how that particular batch of wood works for them. And it's not necessarily representative of the species - just of the limited supply they've gotten and used.

One person who comes to mind is Dana Bourgeois, who has bought and milled entire trees. He's found a lot of variation within those single trees: some tops spoke and some just mumbled. Same tree. Imagine how variable it can be within a species.

I have to repeat my earlier remark that it takes thousands of instruments of a single design and method of construction to offer any meaningful insights into species, as in: Martin guitars, or Larrivee or Taylor, etc. And even that gets gnarly: everyone likes red spruce because it's what the golden age Martins used. Not all of them, or even very many, really had that magic, but True Believers don't want to hear that, but surviving six or seven decades changes the sound of any guitar, hopefully for the better if all goes well. Moreover, when Martin is using P. rubens now for their "Golden Era" and "Authentic" lines, they're carefully picking wood that really meets the test for tap and stiffness and so on. They're listening much harder and choosing much better now than they did in 1935, that's sure. Back then they only looked at wood. If you think you need to depend on a species for a sound, I think you have to build and then examine an enormous pool of instruments, where you can average the sound you get with as little subjectivity as you can muster (which won't be much).

I've found the gourmet lines of Martins using the often bizarre looking P. rubens to be consistently great sounding instruments, but I'd have to say the same about their Engelmann and Sitka tops as well, when they're selected with such care for their upper-level models. Does it sound good because of the species? Or because it was well chosen and used? I have to keep going back to big makers because the sheer size of their output eliminates quirks in small batches of wood such as what boutique makers use.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Hans]

Well, I'm still working off the pile of red I got from Ted Davis many years ago. If he says it's red from W. Virginia, must be cause he hauled it down the mountain hisself.
Paul, 1000's of instruments? Jeez I'd better quit building...
Dave, I'm out of analogies...going to IBMA? I'll be at the fanfest only. We can talk analogies. I'll bring German and red. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Mario Proulx]

This is almost as much fun to read as a glue discussion...

Carry-on!

[Dave Cohen]

I can corroborate what Paul says about the variation within a single tree, or even within a small portion of a tree. I have bonked numerous plates into my computer and fft'd 'em. Even pieces that were adjacent in the billet sometimes had surprisingly different frequencies for the free-plate modes.

Hans, I'll be at IBMA again. Not sure why, but I'll be there. Maybe I'll get a laptop and we can take power spectra of the Germans and the Reds. Could resurrect the cold war??

[foldedpath]

I just wonder what makes a casual picker "want" one wood type over another? I would imagine for a versatile instrument, maybe the best answer is to just put your faith in the builder. . . . Lord knows it would be difficult to make an "engineering" decision in anticipation of an outcome.

At least a few of us casual pickers might choose a tonewood just to be different. I recently bought a Lebeda F5-Premium Plus with a redwood top. Back, sides, and neck are maple. The top is stained solid semi-transparent dark brown with a little grain showing through. It's sort of a chocolate brown version of a blacktop. I wanted something a bit out of the ordinary, and this is definitely different.

A store already had it in stock; I didn't place an order for that specific tonewood, but something about the idea appealed to me. I know some great-sounding archtop guitars have been made with redwood tops, and I'm focused more on blues, jazz, and maybe a little Celtic than bluegrass. I wasn't looking for a Loar copy. Also, I live out in the Pacific Northwest so the idea of redwood was appealing (if something of a coals-to-Newcastle thing, getting this from a Czech builder with great local toneweoods). Anyway, I thought I'd give it a chance. I don't have the experience to place it within the tone spectrum of other instruments, since I haven't heard many high-end new or vintage mandos in person. But it sounds like a mandolin to me. I really like it.

Faith in the builder is critical with this sort of thing. I'm not sure I would have made an unusual choice like that with a less well-known luthier, with fewer instruments under their belt. I figured Jiri must have had a good stash of redwood on hand, and wanted to work with it, and knew what he was doing.

[Spruce]

"I noticed differences in HIS mandolins made with HIS stock of Sitka, Englemann, and Red Spruce."

Exactly....

"When you send a regular customer top wood, do you try to match properties of what you have previously send or is that impossible? "

I used to label each tree, so that I could send out a piece from the same tree later on if need be.
But now I'm getting wood from so many sources other than the tree itself, that it's harder to do.
But I do try to label the trees if I mill them....

"One person who comes to mind is Dana Bourgeois, who has bought and milled entire trees. He's found a lot of variation within those single trees: some tops spoke and some just mumbled. Same tree. Imagine how variable it can be within a species."

Yep.
That's why I said "hopefully".... # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

"If he says it's red from W. Virginia, must be cause he hauled it down the mountain hisself."

He did.
Sunburst helped him with a few of those logs too....

"Faith in the builder is critical with this sort of thing"

Yep...
I got a very well known builder's first Red Spruce mando once, and it just didn't have it.
But every one after that sure did...

So that's why it's kind of a lousy idea to stipulate wood choices to your builder. #
Let them pick the wood they want to work with....

"Way off topic but has anyone ever had any experience with Black Hills spruce?"

That's Picea glauca, right?
I stopped at a few sawmills in South Dakota way-back-when looking for a log, but never found anything that large...

If I lived in the area, I'd definitely go have a look.

[Stephanie Reiser]

Let me ask you, why do you sell the different species if there is no difference?
I don't think Bruce said there is no difference: I think he said that "...you or anyone else could not tell the difference..." between the various species. I would bet that Bruce can, even by looking at the split billet. I know this isn't apples or apples, but I can look at a board of White Pine, and can tell the difference between Ponderosa, Eastern, Sterling, or even Radiatta. Subtle difference that the average person does not see. But I think Bruce can tell the difference in his Spruces.

[Paul Hostetter]

Paul, 1000's of instruments? Jeez I'd better quit building...
No!! Keep building, by all means!

But...do you do it just to showcase species of spruce?

Dana Bourgeois in a recent communication:
I re-read your piece on European spruce. Nice job sorting out the old myths,
though mythology does sell guitars! I try to retain a healthy skepticism
about provenance, but customers seem to be ever more interested in labels
and less interested in what their ears tell them. Oh well, as long as they
keep buying guitars...

[Spruce]

"But I think Bruce can tell the difference in his Spruces. "

Nope....

I can ID Sitka with a 30x hand-lens, but the rest of the Spruces are next to impossible to positively ID either in raw wood form, or under varnish...

Wish I could....

I can guess though... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Hans]

[QUOTE] "But...do you do it just to showcase species of spruce?"

Ahh, nope. Believe it or not some folks don't like that red spruce tone much.

Dave, see you that Friday morning...we can talk "sports"... # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[fatt-dad]

Ahh, nope. Believe it or not some folks don't like that red spruce tone much.
So there's one builder that would agree there is a "red spruce tone"? And, I was just beginning to feel a consenus that there is no consensus. . . .

f-d

[JEStanek]

Paul wrote, "I've found the gourmet lines of Martins using the often bizarre looking P. rubens to be consistently great sounding instruments,..."


http://www.movie-gazette.com/directory/img/paul+reubens.jpg

MMMmmmm Spruce-ie-ey. Couldn't help myself. This is a very interesting topic, which I have little to no first hand experience other than digging P. Ruebens which isn't exactly the same thing...

Jamie

[sunburst]

So there's one builder that would agree there is a "red spruce tone"? #And, I was just beginning to feel a consenus that there is no consensus. . . .
Does Han's experience make a consensus?
Hans can generalize the sound he gets from the different spruces that he has, but that may or may not correlate with the results I or other builders get from the spruce that we have.

If there was a bet involved here, and I was a betting man, I'd bet you will never find a consensus of opinion on whether or not one can generalize about species vs. tone, let alone a consensus on the generalizations themselves.

[Hans]

Funny, I don't feel like a consensus. Take what I said about tone and wood species with a grain of salt.
Why don't we all debate existentialism instead? Start out with you don't exist and see where that gets you. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Paul Hostetter]

Descartes and a couple of his copains are drinking in a bar. Noticing an empty glass, the bartender says “Alors, René, will you have another bière?”

Descartes replies, “I think not,” and instantly disappears.

[Jim Rowland]

Good one,Paul. I understand he was immediately followed by an unidentified consensus.
Jim

[Paul Hostetter]

An unidentified flying consensus.

[delsbrother]

http://www.wvfest.com/performers/pix/special.jpg

[tjg]

Well, isn't that Special.