Why the allure of F-4’s?

[yoods]

Howdy all,

I thought it might be fun and interesting to start a thread on Gibson F-4’s. They sure are pretty, and some I have played sound mighty fine, but most I have tried just sound like an A of the same period. So why the allure of the F-4’s? Why do they seem to just keep going up in price? Is this just a market bubble that will burst as the boomers get arthritis in their fingers?

Some more thoughts to kick things off; one thing I have wondered about them was, were they tap tuned when the tops were carved? Another question, besides the lure of the Loar period of ’22-’24, what makes the models made in the late teens through the twenties so special (so I have noticed because of the price)? One more, I have noticed a lot of the models seem to have a mahogany color stain, and I have seen a few that have more of a brown color stain. Why was that and does it make the brown ones more valuable because that coloration is rarer?

I look forward to hearing from all you smart and knowledgeable Gibson affectionales.


http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[jlb]

I cannot comment on the technical questions, but every F-4 I've tried (4 now in total)has been a dog...maybe all the good ones are all snatched up.

I think the allure is obvious...it looks fancier.

What I want to know from the Gibson afficionados is has there ever been an Gibson F-4/F-2 with a blonde-finished top like the A's?

[cutbait2]

the twenties represent: history, the Loar era, the first gilded age of mandolin interest, better quality control than subsequent decades (until recently). i think that double flower pot is an awesome inlay and they are generally very attractive instruments, and a heck of alot less than a period F-5

[doanepoole]

I am no mando-historian, but from what I've read casually, I have gottent he impression that the mando-boom was in its tail-end when Lloyd Loar took over...and that the F-5 was an unsuccessful ploy to try to reinvigorate interest in the declining market.

Am I wrong here?

[Jim M.]

I prefer the looks of the F4 to the F5, not by a lot, but I also am drawn to the oval-hole sound too. There are some great-sounding F4s out there that, I think, are comparable to the best F5s but with more of the oval hole tendencies. As far as light tops go, here's one from Frets.com:


http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Museum/Mandolin/Gibson/3PtF4/3PtF4Views/3ptf47.jpg

[Spruce]

I just love old F4s, and a good sounding one is a thing of beauty.

They are just a whole lot of fun to play in any style. #Even bluegrass.

Here's (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?392) mine....

I really like the look of the Handle tuners.

I also love the look of a well-figured piece of Red maple showing through old smelly F4 varnish...
The pics don't really do this one justice--the wood is pretty spectacular.

[berkeleymando]

The usual disclaimer about 'sorry if this sounds like a dumb question applies here ... but ...

Having had little experience actually playing a variety of F models (as opposed to looking for long periods of time at the multitudes of cool pictures of them on the 'net) and models with oval holes or Fs, I'd appreciate any thoughts about the different qualities of tone provided by them and how they contrast.

The usual characterization I have heard is that F holes give a more 'bark' or 'bluegrass' tone whereas Ovals give a 'sweeter' or 'classical' sound. Is this valid?

[berkeleymando]

I also meant to ask, how would you qualify "oval hole tendencies"?

[Spruce]

One comparison that you hear a lot is that F5s (or F-hole instruments) are louder than F4s (or oval holed instruments)...

The reality is that F5s are not neccessarily louder, they just seem to be louder.

If you record the various mandolins, the Dbs put out by a good F4 is equal to that of a good F5. #
The levels to tape can be very similar....
(Same mic, same pre, etc...)

This surprised me the first time I noticed it--I always figured the F5 would blow an F4 out of the water volume-wise.

You do have to work an F4 a lot more in a BG jam situation, but I guess that the more "focused" sound of the F5 just cuts through with a lot less effort...

[Bob A]

I'm sure there are a few dogs out there, but I'm generally charmed by F4s that I've played. New strings and a little "playing-in" time go a long way.

I love the double flowerpot, and the oval-hole sound. It's more intimate, less focussed and percussive than f-hole instruments, sweeter, delicate almost, woody, warm.

It's worth noting here that the strings of the period were generally quite light. I use PF250s on mine, and they're fine. An older instrument doesn't need heavy strings to sound good. I admit I'm not trying to play over anyone's banjo.

So far as I'm aware, there's a little price premium for Loar-era instruments, just becasue of the name. Also they have trussrods, which IMHO are not an improvement. Never seen a warped pre-trussrod neck. Bear in mind that until the F5 came along, the F4 was the premier top-of-the-line Gibson mando.

Since I'll never have a Loar, my '21 F4 will have to do for me this lifetime. And it can. The prices for F2 and F4 instruments are finally climbing to their true worth. Since it costs an easy 4K to get one made today, it's about time the market started factoring in the value of 80 years worth of aging and playing.

[evanreilly]

The F-4 was Gibson's 'Top of the Line' mandolin until the Master Model Series 5 instruments appeared.
Grisman's mandolin album has a picture of the 3-point blonde F-4 he has/had.

[Rich Michaud]

I have two F4s, a 1920 black-faced and a 1921 F4. The Black-faced was played in a Russian Balaikai orchestra in NY through the 1940s. Its tone is wonderful. Its history is facinating it is beautiful to behold. For certain types of music I would choose no other. (I have several excellent F5s to campare with it). I agree that not all F4s have good tone but isnt that true with Loars?. I find F4s to be works of art, full of history and fun to play. The shorter and wider neck is fine with me. No, it doesn't project the same way an F5 does, but my musical tastes are not just bluegrass sessions. If you can get your hands on an F4, judge for yourself. The old As are great as well.

[jlb]

I did not intend to convey I thought that all F-4s are dogs...just the 4 I tried when I was looking for one....perhaps if I sounded a little bitter is because I spent a great deal of time and mileage on my car hunting down an F-4, and could not find one I was pleased with.

But I am an avid fan of the old Gibson oval hole sound, and the gem of my mandos, though certainly not in terms of market value, is a pre-trussrod, pre-Loar, plain-jane A.

But alot of those less fancy A-models are hit-or-miss as well, in my limited experience.

Don't get me wrong. I greatly prefer the sound of oval-hole instruments, to the point that the only time my F-5 replica leaves its case is when I'm playing with a bunch of loud instruments at jams, festivals, and such.

[uncle ken]

I recently bought a 1920 F4 that needed work. After new frets and some repaired seams it is one of the best playing and sounding mandolins I have ever come across. I also own a 29 fern and have played a number of fine loars. Anyone who is crying about loars being out of reach should get over it and buy one of these. Late teens and early 20s have the best reputation. Here are some pictures (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?2845) and here is how it sounds. (http://www.mandolinproject.150m.com/cshuffle/ken123332000.mp3)

[TerryA]

Uncle Ken, that's some nice pickin'. Kinda reminds me
of Herschel Sizemore.

terry a

[Darryl Wolfe]

Here is Mike Comptons new main axe

[AlanN]

Man, that baby looks good, if I didn't look at the headstock, I coulda sworn...

[Darryl Wolfe]

back

[Tom C]

Spruce,
That's one nice lookin F4. For some reason all the F2's I've played sounded better than the F4's. I can't recall if the years were compatable. But I consistently like the sound of the F2s more. So I guess I can save a few $.

[Rich Michaud]

If anyone is interested, I have a very pristine late 1921 F4 in superb condition that I am willing to part with. (I have another F4 and can't financially justify keeping 2 F4s.) I haven't list it for sale but I may in the future. If anyone at Mando cafe wants it, please email me and I can give details and pics. (I am not a dealer). My luthier made sure it is in perfect working order-frets done, no cracks,clean, super beautiful finish, straight neck etc. $5500.00 on sale, willing to trade up. Rich Michaud

[AlanN]

I've seen some more of Compton's Gilchrist, simply stunning. And he has the right strap, too.

[danb]

What I want to know from the Gibson afficionados is has there ever been an Gibson F-4/F-2 with a blonde-finished top like the A's?
Here's a nice one:

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/12853_front.jpg

More details here:

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?2801

[Bob Sayers]

I'd been hoping for a long while that Gibson would build an F-5 with F-4 specs, notably those wonderful colors: sunburst red, blackface, or pumpkin with red back and sides. So far, I haven't seen a red Master Model, which would be the closest thing to ideal. But I recently encountered a Wayne Benson artist model which had the look with its satin red sunburst finish, blue abalone fern, and gold hardware. In fact, after thinking about it for a while, I broke down and bought the thing. And, for the moment at least, couldn't be happier.

Bob

Bob

[jlb]

Thanks for the pics! There is something about that color scheme I just love. To me, the sunbursts, ivory tops, blackfaces, and such tend to hide, in varying degrees, the beauty of the raw wood. I think the good old "normal" finish top (I said blonde before, but I don't know if that's right), and that reddish back really look great on the F-4s!

[Gary S]

Well I will chime in as well in praise of the Gibson F-4.
They can be as unpredictable as the other vintage gibsons but the good ones I have played have been wonderful. The openness and the bottom end is unsurpassed. The choice of beautifully grained maple back and sides and the unike reddish understated burst on the tops made for an extremely handsome mandolin. I own a 1923 and a 1917. Both sound very good. The 17 Is awesome. If you are used to the bluegrass mandolin sound it wont be for you. The f-2s often sound as good but wont have the maple, the flower pot(pots) and some binding.

The Loar era f-4s arent neccessrilly better than the others, but I believe they rightfully are more valuable considering the mojo. My humble opinion...Gary Silverstein

[bones12]

For old time music ( the highest achievement in music), the F4 sound is chill inducing. My two F4s (1922 and 1924)are both great sounding and melt in your hands. The later one has the raised fingerboard and a slightly different sound that the "lower" fingerboard. My 1923 F2 also has a great sound and is my choice for outdoor festivals. All have that mojo that always brings a big smile. They are great for me. Doug

[Spruce]

..."and melt in your hands".

Great description of the F4 experience...

When I pick up an F5 (even a real good one), I always feel like I'm going to battle...

[Hubert Angaiak]

I guess there would difference in tone between the F-4's and the F-2's from reading this thread. My '14 F-2 sounds much mellower than my F-5 copy and I like playing it when I'm alone. There was a thread somewhere that said there in't much difference in tone between the oval hole series whether A or F style. I've also read that one instrument will sound better than the other. Are the instruments finished on a Monday sound better than the ones finished on a Friday or Saturday? Would this explain the need for a sound engineer to sign an instrument off? If so.. what happened to the 22-24 F-5's that didn't pass the sound test? or are these called "unsigned Loars".

[Spruce]

Check these (http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.cgi?search_and_display_db_button=on&db_id=9902&query=retrieval) out!

[yoods]

Howdy all. I have greatly enjoyed reading all your experiences, thoughts, #information, and pictures on F-4’s. Thanks for taking the time to write and post pictures and links.

A few weeks ago I started this thread because I had seen and played an early twenties F-4 that I thought was really special and wanted to learn more about F-4’s in general. It was for sale, and although I was not looking for another mando, I was very sorely tempted except for the very steep price tag (for my meager income). But I am sure, as you all know, when you find the “one”, the combination of sound, playability, and looks, it may not always reveal itself to you when you are looking for it, and you can afford it.

For the last month or so I have not been able to get it out of my head (even with all the reality checks of $$!) and recently I have been giving serious consideration to finding a way to get it, even if it means borrowing. So, my mando friends, any more comments you can add about F-4’s? I am not looking for anyone to talk me into buying it, but more of a conformation that the value (in the high $4,000 range) for such a vintage instrument will maintain. I kinda look at buying such an instrument as “renting it" while enjoying playing it before it is passed on.

I am also interested in learning more about how F-4’s were built, their construction; what kind of bracing do they have, what special things the luthier’s might have done, if anything, #to check their sound to improve them while building them. Any notions or knowledge are welcome.

Thanks in advance and look forward to your responses. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[evanreilly]

If it is an early '20s F-4 with a truss rod, it may be from the peak time of their production. #I have a 1924; I sold it twice and was able to buy it back both times. I really regretted selling it, because it was such a good mandolin, both in tone and playability.
They (Gibsons) have a single brace running across the top; no tone bars like violins & the F-5. #They are built with tops that are a good bit thicker than the F-5, which was modelled after the violin. #IN spite of the seemingly heavier top, they still can project great tone & volume.
They are like real estate, not any more being made and there is always demand.
If you really fall for it, grab it while you can; you may really regret it for a long time, because next time one comes around, it may be twice the price. #Just my $.0125, from a Happy F-4 owner..<G>

[Spruce]

"I am not looking for anyone to talk me into buying it, but more of a confirmation that the value (in the high $4,000 range) for such a vintage instrument will maintain."

Even though F4's have taken a good bump in price in the past couple years, I think they are still one of the great bargains in the vintage mando world...

[Bob DeVellis]

I've collected some information and pulled it together at this website. (http://bellsouthpwp.net/r/d/rdevelli/Gibson%20F-4.htm)

[yoods]

Evan, Spruce and Bobd, thanks for your comments. Bobd, a special thanks for the link, very helpful and very interesting information, especially about Loar's influence on quality control.

Evan, to answer your question, the F-4 I am looking at does not have a truss-road.

After reading the info at Bobd's link I have a question; since Loar was at Gibson from 1919 through 1924, do you think that F-4's during that period had graduated tops like the F-5's did?

[evanreilly]

Nope; altho Loar may have 'overseen' the production of all the mandolins between 1922 & 1924, the F-5 Master Model was a radically new style, with an entirely different top construction from the F-2 and F-4 of the same era. Different graduations, different bracing, different neck/body joinings.

[Bob A]

About the only things you can do for an F4 are to get an adjustable bridge, and lose the tacky pickguard - rplace with a side-screw-mounted one like the F5. (But keep the old parts!).

I favor the non-trussrodded style personally, and feel that the wider thicker neck is ideal. But that's a personal matter, of course.

If I didn't have one, and played one that really moved me, I'd do whatever it takes to get to keep it. There is a definite upward price move, and trust me, it is not a bubble.

[yoods]

I favor the non-trussrodded style personally, and feel that the wider thicker neck is ideal. But that's a personal matter, of course.

Yeah, that is one of things noticed about the playability of this one is the wider neck.

Thanks all for your comments, it helps in my education on this model and I am sure others have found it interesting as well.