Am i at risk of injury?

[homeslice]

Hey mando folks! I first want to say that I love this site and that lurking around here has been both inspirational and helpful on many levels....so thanks to you all!

I purchased a mandolin and started taking lessons around the first of April of this year. This hobby has become an obsession very quickly since the moment I bought it I actually quit drinking (and I drank a lot), and now all of that time and energy is focused on the mandolin. Ive literally been able to trade addictions and I feel very blessed to have this in my life. Ok, here's the situation...

I play roughly 3 hours a day. Sometimes it's 6 and sometimes it's 2, but never any less. Its been that way every day since March. When I first began, the soreness in my left hand (I'm right handed) was expected and I thought of it as just paying my dues. Now, however, it has actually gotten worse and I am worried that Im putting myself at risk in the long term. Ive gotten some conflicting advice from the three folks that I know who play so... I am hoping that you guys/gals could throw me some opinions. Should I set aside a day a week to not play? Should I see a doctor? Should I take up banjo?

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Just some details on the pain: It goes away gradually during the day. I wake up with a very stiff pointer and middle finger (and painful) and by massaging and stretching through my day Im usually ready to play about 6-7 hours later. I have some shooting fingertip pain for about the first 10 minutes of play but I play through it and its gone....until tommorrow that is.

Thanks for your help. I apologize if this is misplaced or is breaking some rules. Please have mercy on a pain strickened newbie.

[12 fret]

Has your teacher analyzed your left hand technique? If he/she doesn't feel you are overstressing your hand, I'd see a doctor for advice.

[JimD]

That sounds pretty serious.

I do think you should see a doctor.

12 fret is right -- your teacher should be able to help you develop technique that doesn't lead to problems -- if not, find a new teacher.

Meanwhile here (http://www.musicianshealth.com/default.htm) is a site that may offer some insight.

[homeslice]

I've discussed it with my instructor but he didnt think that I should be concerned. The amount that I practice is to blame in his mind, and that I haven't taken a day off. As far as technique goes, I have several learning aids (books,vids) in addition to taking lessons that make me feel pretty certain Im ok there. I suppose I will go ahead and see a doctor about it. I really am in love with this instrument and would hate to risk not being able to play. Thanks for the advice. Jim, the info on that website was scary...had to look away from the carpal tunnel stuff. Dont want to think about THAT.

[olgraypat]

Okay. First things first. Back away from the "b" thing. You may think the drinking was bad, but just say no to the "b" word. Second, congrats on the cutting back on the drinking. Third, I have had a similar thing. I got it the first time when I puuled all the staples out of the carpet on our stairs by hand with a screwdriver. Seriously, had "carpal tunnel" like pain for over a year. Then when I took up guitar. Both times I found a wrist brace that I wore at night helped tremendously. You can buy them at a pharmacy. An adjustment on my technique helped with the guitar thing. And, a few days rest helped a lot. And finally, I would see a doctor...but maybe you just need to relax a bit. Spend some of your time learning the fretboard or theory or something other than playing. good luck

[groveland]

I'm with the guys above - Your teacher should be able to ID technique problems, and stretching can help alot. Also, it's good to see you're so zealous for the mando - But even with mando, there can be too much of a good thing!

As a new player, you're working new muscle groups in new ways. Early on, you're not going to be too efficient at it, and you'll be working harder to accomplish something that a year from now will be effortless. So right now, you're really hammering those muscles and tendons!

When I first got my mandolin a couple years ago, I practiced between 2 and 4 hours a day, 6 hours a day on weekends. Before long I got sharp pains in my thumb joint. (Having played guitar for several decades, 6+ hours a day for a lot of that time, this came as a big surprise to me.)

So after a year of this, I laid off the mando a bit - I practice every couple days for an hour or so, and the rest of the time I play bouzouki and long scale cittern. What this does is allows me to use different muscle groups and tendons, while still practicing the same mando tunings.

Over time now I have become more efficient in my mando playing, and therefore way more relaxed. Now I don't apply that same level of effort and stress to my hand... No more pain.

One last thing - I read in a Chris Thile interview (which I haven't been able to track down since) that he was practicing so much that he started to injure himself - He proceeded to remove 4 of the 8 strings to alleviate some of the tension and continue to practice. (If anyone knows this interview, PLEASE post a link!)

[JimD]

Look back at the site and find the stretching routine.

I seems like alot at first because it deals with the larger muscles of the arm and back but don't forget that they are all connected. (The foot bone's connected to the ankle bone, the ankle bone's connected...) Of course, the muscles that control the finger movements are in the forearm too. (Slight biological oversimplification but mostly true...)

I had a muscle spasm problem a few years back from trying to carry my instruments to gigs on the subway. Those stretches were the only thing that cleared it up. I've been doing them daily ever since...

[Pete Martin]

Look up "Musicians and Injuries" and read up on overuse injuries.

Two of the most common things that bring on overuse injuries:

1) Drastic increase in work load (you've DEFINITELY done this).
2) Many overuse injuries come on at or after the age of 40.

My suggestion is if you are in pain, STOP PLAYING! and find a Performing Arts doctor, or at least an Occupational Therapist who has worked with musicians. There is a "find a doc" link on the M & I page, that may help you. If not, ask friends, teachers, Musicians Union, etc for leads.

I know personally two great players who did not stop playing when they had pain. Unfortunately, there is a good chance neither will ever play again. It has been over 10 years for both...

Be very wary of sports medicine docs and therapists. Tendon injuries often do not respond to the same treatments for bigger muscles. Before I knew better, I went to a sports med clinic. One week of their "treatment" approach cost me about a year of playing.

Best of luck.

[GTison]

yes, some will advise "strengthening" your hands. Your hands are already strong enough. It is too much playing time. Orthopedics, means you can Splint it, Cast it, or Rest it then Drugs. After that surgery. That's just what they do. If you live in a big enough city to have a musicians injury doc go there. Also go to the library and ask for the book: " The Athletic Musician" that's a great book and a must read for anyone w/ hand problems from playing.

[Truckadero]

My advice to new and enthusiastic musicians like yourself: "never practice...always play!" Keep it fun. Maybe back off on learning all the new licks at your fingertips and spend some time listening and studying the "sounds" of the masters. Big Mon, Sam, Butch, etc. Play slowly and build up those hands. Stretch those tendons slowly with easy scales. You read like you are heading for many years of enjoyment with this instrument. Take it slow and pay attention as you go. Pick On!

[homeslice]

As hard as it will be for me to do it, Im going to stop playing for a couple of days(starting tomorrow) to see what happens. Maybe if I give myself a few days to heal up I'll be OK. Its going to be very hard for me to keep my hands off of it but from the responses here I'm actually scared. I know that nobody means to do that but it seems like very bad things are a possibility. I had actually made up my mind to see a doctor today, but since I haven't tried the logical thing of stopping a while...I think I should start there. After all, if there is really bad news regarding my hand, I'm not in a big hurry to hear it.

Thanks to you all for sharing your knowledge and resources with me. This is something I've been in a little bit of denial about and it's been good to hear somebody's wheels spin on it besides my own. All of this advice has given me a nice balanced perspective and I really appreciate it. I hope that one day I'll be able to contribute something helpful to you.

Unless, of course, I morph into the one-handed freak that bangs his head against the wall everytime mandolins are mentioned.:D

[Walter Newton]

I think listening to the signals your body is giving you and taking a break is a wise idea...ramping up to playing 2-6 hours a day in a couple of months is quite ambitious...as others have said you can still put in aluable study time away from the instrument working on theory or just listening to great players.

[dcc]

Moderation is good in all things, even obsessions, especially when pain is involved. #Pain exists for a very useful reason, namely, to stop us from really really hurting ourselves badly. #Makes sense to take it easy for a while. #

oh, and if your fretboard isn't radiused, you probably want to get it radiused. #much more ergonomic that way.

[Chris Biorkman]

A few years ago my brother was playing guitar so much that he started to develop tendonitis in his left hand. He started drinking a lot of water and alternating putting his hand in ice water, then hot water (I think ten minutes total, switching every minute or two). He did this several times a day. The problem eventually went away. The same routine worked for my wife when she developed carpel tunnel from typing too much.

I think one important thing is to take small breaks when you are practicing. Also, your body is trying to tell you something and if you ignore it and try to play through the pain, it will most likely get so bad that you eventually won't be able to play at all, especially if you have tendonitis. Take some time off and try to fix the problem, then ease back into playing.

[sean parker]

homeslice, also playing piano and guitar, i know how repetition can injure the body. i see a physiotherapist about once a month, sometimes more, for my right arm & hand. tremendous pain. for years, i thought it was it was RSI, but it turned out to be my neck.

my physio sees alot of orchestra musicians, and he reckons most of the problems from things like guitar, typing, piano or mandolin is from posture in combination with repetition. often when we're playing an instrument like the guitar or mandolin, our necks and shoulders are cramped or in awkward positions. then we play hard. for hours. #we're enjoying or challenging ourselves or both. we forget how we are holding our body, and we're probably using our energy ineffeciently. a mandolin is very very small, and we put alot of energy into playing the thing.

physiotherapists are good in that they're usually keen on self-managment, so they'll have good exercises to prevent further vists to their clinic! the ability to self-soothe and self-manage is good.

best of luck.

[JimD]

Bottom line:

Take this very seriously. You only get one pair of hands.

[Bernie Daniel]

homeslice, #I do not think that you have not provided one very important piece of information. #How old are you?

If you are my age (62) I expect you might have what I have -- i.e., a small amount of arthritis in your fingers and hands. #It comes with age for many.

I also wake up every day with stiff sore (tender) hands -- been that way for the last 5 years or so. #But a bit of massage helps as does holding them in warm water. #Usually after 5 minutes of playing the pain is largely gone. #My left thumb along the neck is my worst joint -- it can send back little stabs of pain for 30 minutes or so but it gradually subsides as I play.


A doc can check this out for you. #I'd also look into the the possibility of carples tunnel problems but I do not think that is you problem.

I'll take a some hand pain if I can keep on picking.#http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[bennyb]

howdy, homeslice. One more repetition; rest your hands. Here's what happened to me. I took up mando about four years ago, and practiced about 2 hours a day. After about 8 months,I made a big jump in speed: right hand knew what to do, left hand tried to keep up. I played 8 hours a day for three days. It was fun while it lasted. I probably got some pain messages and ignored them. On day four, just picking up the mando hurt, and making notes hurt a lot(pain emanating from carpal tunnel area - both hands). I couldn't play for more than a minute at a time for the next eight months without pain. Many days I didn't play at all and when I did I just fingered the notes very lightly without getting much sound. Then one day my hands were much better. Now I don't try to play fast and stop on a dime if I get the pain "message."

Mando player: "Doc, it hurts when I do that."
Doctor: "Don't do that!"

If you've got tabledit, play the tunes at a slower speed, and just sing the notes, or do the same with recorded stuff.
Getting the sound in your head will do a lot for your playing when you can play.

Here's hoping you don't do like I do, and take all good advice given in this thread. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I'm a young guy compared to Bernie. 61

Best, bennyb

[8STRINGR]

Wow, homeslice I hope you get that problem straightened out. Please, give us a follow up on what you found out, what was suggested and how you've progressed with this problem and concern. It may come as a great help to others that are experiencing the same thing to be able to read up on this. Stay "strong headed" and positive in all aspects. I'll pray for the the best healing for you. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[DryBones]

kind of weird that nobody has asked about the setup of your mandolin. If the strings/action are high and you are vice-gripping to fret notes with all that time playing I would expect you would be feeling it. Fretting should be easy after the intial callouses set in http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[homeslice]

Wow! Thanks for all the support guys. Im starting to think that mando players are just better than everybody else.:D

Well, today is day one of not playing. I got home from work about an hour ago and I've paced toward the mandolin and back about six times now. Im going to take the advice of using the next few days as "research" days. I'll probobly troll the tips/theory board on here while I play mando tunes on Rhapsody. Isn't this internet thing great?

For those who were interested, I'm 30 years old. The mandolin was a birthday gift of sorts to myself in April. I like to think of myself as the oldest child prodigy!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

As far as set up goes it's actually very easy to play...now that is. For the first two months it wasn't. Maybe this has something to do with it since I have never allowed for any "healing" in the meantime. My instructor actually loaned me one of his mandolins while mine was being set up so I've never missed a beat. Speaking of set up..if you are in the Memphis area a Mr. Steve Neuman at Fiddler's Green is just fantastic. He made me feel very important even though I know virtually nothing and my mando is humming like a big dog! Thier entire staff is just great.

Again, thank you all so much for the support/advice. I will update as my condition changes or if I take another course of action. Welp, I'm off to "study". Hope you all have a great night!

[Don Christy]

DryBones alluded to it but I don't think anyone explicitly mentioned it .... how hard are you gripping with the left. I think many beginners press much harder on the fretboard than necessary. High action can cause it, but some of us do it regardless of action. I know when I try and play fast or loud I have to consciously counteract the tendency to press hard with the left hand.

Once you start playing again, pay attention to how hard you press/grip with the left and try to relax the left and press as lightly as possible - it will help with speed too. Also consider going with lower tension/lower action.

Good luck,
Don

[Bob DeVellis]

This sort of topic comes up a lot. First, I'd say rather than being at risk of an injury, you actually have an injury. Whether it's severe or not I can't say, but I think, from what you describe, you're past the point of "maybe."

Pain is a symptom that can arise form more than one cause. Consequently, what works for one person's pain may not necessarily work for another's. Meaning no disrespect to anyone's suggestions, I think it's just worth bearing in mind that other people's experiences may or may not be relevant to you. Even if the pain seems to have resulted from a similar type of strain, the actual process producing the pain may be different from one person to the next. Getting some expert advice is probably a very good idea. Unfortunately, that can be hard to do. Not every physician will necessarily be in a position to diagnose the problem correctly and you may get the standard set of recommendations (which may not be bad) of laying off the overuse and taking something to reduce inflammation.

Also, some practitioners can be very enthusiastic about their own particular approach with relatively modest empirical evidence of its effectiveness. (I recently heard someone say that 95% of the cases they saw with Problem X had a lot of corn in their diet. I asked them how many people without Problem X also had a lot of corn in their diet, and they got a confused look on their face. People have a natural tendency to pay attention selectively to information that confirms their hypotheses.)

So, you may need qualified help but it may be difficult to judge who is really qualified. What I would personally do is to lay off the playing for a while and see someone that I trusted with my health. If you have a primary care doc that you see regularly, that's a good place to start. If your next door neighbor, or a friend, or a relative is an OT, that might be another good place to start. See if what they say makes sense to you; if it does, give it a try, and see if it works. Reducing stress on the painful areas is very unlikely to do any harm and may help a great deal. I'd be wary of ideas that sound like a "quick fix," but then, I tend to be something of a skeptic.

These are just my opinions and I mean no disrespect or criticism of anyone who may disagree.

[JeffD]

I sometimes wonder if there is some connection between adequate hydration and muscle pain. I find that if I deliberately go about drinking more water than I want - i.e. more than merely quenches thirst - a lot pains seem to go away - joints and muscles - left hand fingers, ankles.

I don't know. I am not a doctor, so considerate it just another piece of input.

[jmcgann]

JimD and Petimar's posts should be re-read several times, very carefully. Great advice.

You also might want to look into what other people say about technique (http://www.johnmcgann.com/techtips.html) in print and visually (http://www.johnmcgann.com/books.html)...and not just one source. There are a few ways to play 'correctly' (good technique) and infinite ways to play with bad technique- not only the kind that is inefficient, but also hazardous to your health and future as a musician.

[homeslice]

Just an update to those interested. I haven't played since Sunday night and today I've noticed a drastic improvement in the condition of my hand. As I stated earlier, when I first wake up is the most bothersome time. This morning I didnt have any stiffness and only felt discomfort when I make a tight fist. Until today I actually hadn't noticed a change at all, which was causing some serious concern, so you can imagine I am very excited to have any improvement at all.

I'm going to refrain from playing until after work Friday (thats when my next lesson is), and if after I have pain I'm going to go with my next course of action. Mr. Biorkman was nice enough to PM detailed instruction on the heat/cold home remedy that worked for his brother. Sounds a bit "folklorish", but I'm willing to give it a shot since it's cheaper than a doctor visit with no health insurance. I do plan on calling a doctor that I have phone access to through the family just to make sure this couldn't possibly do more damage, but I can't imagine that it would. Still, I dont have any medical knowledge, and I'm taking this seriously.

Per the advice on this thread, I've been using this "down time" to research music and information relative. According to what I've looked at as far as proper technique I would say that Im in pretty good shape there (except for maybe that big buzzing G chord http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ). I'm almost convinced that the poor set-up with really high action that I had for the first two months is the culprit. Since I played for multiple hours every day with it and after with no break in there maybe I just needed some "heal time"? I hope so anyway. I'll let you know.

Thanks again to everyone for your support and advice.:)

[Shalebot]

One last thing - I read in a Chris Thile interview (which I haven't been able to track down since) that he was practicing so much that he started to injure himself - He proceeded to remove 4 of the 8 strings to alleviate some of the tension and continue to practice. (If anyone knows this interview, PLEASE post a link!)
I haven't seen or heard of the interview, but he does discuss it on a Woodsongs show (I think it was the one with Bryan Sutton). He said it was how he ended up writing Ode to a Butterfly (because the fact that there were only four strings meant he could do the quick hammer-ons / pull-offs that are in that song).

[MandoSquirrel]

Alternating Hot & cold is a standard Western Medical practice, in other words, it's not just folklore.

Now that it's been few days, if you're feeling ready, try working up to playing by limiting yourself to 15 minutes at a time, with down time between of at least the same. Many short sessions will get you further than jumping into marathons.

Hope this helps. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

Rub Tiger Balm on the affected area and put a thick sock over your hand(in this case) to keep the heat in.
Go to bed,
Relax
repeat for 2-3 nights.
These are just strains from over use that will crop up from time to time.
Lay off the mando, play the guitar for a couple of days instead if you must but dont stress about it, this is the worst thing you can do...
It's always worked for me.
DD:)

[homeslice]

Well, I've spoken with a doctor. He seems to feel that I have tendonitis due to overuse these past few months. I can go in and have tests done to confirm this but was told in a "round about way" that there really isnt too much of a point given the circumstances and symptoms. He said that the heat/cold remedy was a good idea but that I should lay off of playing while I try it for a few days. After that I should ice my hand, no heat, after each playing session.

Anti inflammatory medication is an option in the future, but I'd rather avoid relying on something like that if I can. I feel I should try the minimum/less costly methods first, slowly, to see what will work.

I guess on one hand this is pretty bad news, but it really could have been worse. As of right now I still have hope and full intention of continuing to play in the future, something I was afraid I might not be able to do. This regiment I'm going to go through certainly isn't going to be fun but that's ok. My progress on the mandolin means more to me than just becoming good at an instrument. It's about me proving something to myself and eventually being able to express myself in an artistic manner. So I'm willing to roll with the punches.

On a really positive note...I understand that a radiused fingerboard is helpful for folks with tendonitis. I can't think of a better excuse to buy a new mando!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Thanks again to everyone for all of the support and advice. I really appreciate it.

[Don Christy]

RICE: rest ice compression elevation.

That's the standard treatment for many overuse/strain types of injuries. The idea is to minimize the inflammation. Remember, you have an injury, so I wouldn't worry too much about becoming dependent on NSAIs like ibuprofen. IMVHO, your doctor is giving you good advice.

I used to be a runner, and anytime this type of topic comes up I'm reminded of a story I read or heard from a sports doctor. It goes like this:

A guy goes to see his doctor about his knee problems.

Doctor: Have you been using the ice like I suggested?

Patient: Well I was talking to my gardener, and he suggested using heat. So I've been using heat on it.

Doctor: Really? That's strange, my gardener suggests ice!

Don

[homeslice]

!!!!Good News!!!!

Many, many thanks are in order to Mr. Biorkman for his remedy of heat/cold transfer. After a few days of this I am feeling no pain at all! I can still tell that my fretting hand is a little "tighter" than my picking hand, but the pain is gone. While it was pretty uncomfortable, it really worked amazingly. Mr. Biorkman, you and your brother are saints!

This good news also comes after a five hour playing session last night. I know, I'm going to screw up again, but I have a new mando that plays better (easier) than any acoustic stringed instrument I've ever laid my hands on. I traded in my Morgan Monroe for a Breedlove Quartz. Its quite possibly the ugliest mandolin on earth, but I swear you can get a clean note from just blowing on it. It's easier to fret than some electric guitars I have played! To top it off, it sounds 50 times better that the old one. So, if anyone is having pain from fretting, I would certainly recommend having a look at these.

Just as a precaution, I did ice my hand for about 5 minutes after I played, per the doctor's recommendation. I'm going to continue this for a while just to be on the safe side, even though right now I feel there isn't too much of a need. Since I'm obviously not going to heed the advice of not over playing, I'm not going to take any other chances.

Thanks again for all of the advice and positive encouragement that I've received on this thread as well as the PM's. It really means a lot to me, and maybe someone having the same problems can get help from the info you guys/gals have given here to. You guys rock!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Chris Biorkman]

Glad to be of service. Just make sure you keep up the ice/heat regimen because if you stop it might come back.

[GTison]

5 hours IS a long time to play. Rest is the cure, and the ice keeps the inflammation down. I think you still need to rest another week or so. Because if you play while its "better" but not healed completely, the problem will come back. And likely with a vengeance. Be careful. A few weeks of rest, versus a lifetime of pain and stiffness problems is an easy choice but a hard thing to do in the present. (while you rest go get the book from the library)