Oval hole with tone bars? [Archive]

bulldog

Jun-27-2007, 4:51pm

Just out of curiousity, has anyone ever attempted an oval hole A style with modified tone bars? Are tone bars and an oval hole a combination that would end with a sunken top? Any thoughts?

JEStanek

Jun-27-2007, 5:15pm

If I'm not mistaken Weber will build an oval with either bracing. My Eastman has tone bars and a tansverse brace as well...

Jamie

Mario Proulx

Jun-27-2007, 9:05pm

I've done ovals with both X braces and tone bars, and prefer the tone of the X braced ones. Both survived well, so structurally, all's fine.

Willie

Jun-27-2007, 9:05pm

I don`t know this for sure but I was told that Ira Louvin installed tone bars in his F-4 and it pretty much had a sound different from other oval hole mandos...I woul dlove to know who now owns it so I could find out for sure.....Willie

mythicfish

Jun-27-2007, 9:28pm

" I woul dlove to know who now owns it so I could find out for sure."

Nothing "for sure' about it. The information you seek would only be available by comparing (in person) a "similar " model.
Repeat the process for a number of instruments and you may have more of a handle on it.

Curt

Rob Grant

Jun-28-2007, 2:24am

Here's a very satisfactory solution I used on an f4 I built.
It's basically a combination between X bracing and tonebars. It's a punchy little oval hole with good tone and volume. After over two years, there is no sign of the top collapsing (King Billy pine top).

Gail Hester

Jun-28-2007, 1:19pm

I was horrified to find these in a 1924 snakehead, it sounded terrible.

Gail Hester

Jun-28-2007, 1:20pm

It sounds fantastic like this.

MikeEdgerton

Jun-28-2007, 1:40pm

I'm not shocked that it sounds better http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

JEStanek

Jun-28-2007, 1:58pm

Gail,

Were those Pixie Sticks in there? Your new brace looks much nicer. No wonder it sounds better.

Jamie

first string

Jun-29-2007, 11:02am

a12

Jun-29-2007, 11:30am

I don't see any new mandos with transverse bracing, like Gibson did on their teens mandos.
Why did that fall out of favor?

sgarrity

Jun-29-2007, 11:38am

I believe Hans Brentrup builds his oval holes with a transverse brace. But Bill Busmann uses x-bracing and gets great results.

first string

Jun-29-2007, 11:41am

I don't see any new mandos with transverse bracing, like Gibson did on their teens mandos.
Why did that fall out of favor?
Well I think there are still plenty of luthiers who use the transverse brace, but I suppose it has declined, and certainly the bigger makers that build ovals all seem to favor X. My guess would be that the transverse brace's reputation for coming loose (thereby sometimes causing top sinkage) is enough to discourage any large scale company. Gluing bracing across the grain is probably seen as too much of a liability. Which is perhaps somewhat silly, being that on the whole the old Gibson ovals have held up ok. And I've talked to quite a few people who say that they prefer the sound of transverse braced ovals.

a12

Jun-29-2007, 11:45am

"I was horrified to find these in a 1924 snakehead, it sounded terrible."

Gail,
Was it the position of the tonebars or just because they
were tonebars?
I'm just wondering how much affect this has.

I have a mando with a combination of tonebars and transverse bracing.

Gail Hester

Jun-29-2007, 12:04pm

Bill, I'm the wrong one to ask as I don't experiment with X-bracing or any other bracing or hybrid designs. Lots of luthiers do with success but I only try to duplicate the vintage designs, tone bars with F-holes and transverse braces with all the ovals. I'll never win an award for inovation and only hope my new-old instruments are appreciated for what they are.

pelone

Jun-29-2007, 1:25pm

Gail--a question for you. In the second photo showing the new brace, how does one go about determining the exact placement in relation to the oval hole. Is a placement more towards and under the bridge itself detrimental to the sound and strength of the mando. It seems that, perhaps, just as the greatest downward pressure exerted by the strings would fall on the bridge that the most likely place to position the brace would be directly under the bridge. Any thoughts on this, please?

Paul Hostetter

Jun-29-2007, 1:30pm

I just stumbled across a photo of the inside of an A that had a collapsed top that I'd put tone bars in, long ago. I'd post the photo but it looks exactly like Gail's. I also did some A's (old Gibsons in trouble) with X-bracing and preferred the sound of the X to the tone bars. Structurally both worked.

Hans

Jun-29-2007, 1:35pm

Let's hear it for tradition! I use the transverse brace, and don't have any problems. Now I am also NOT one to make a top too thin. Most all top collapses are a result of a too thin top. Granted, the transverse is a brace, but it acts as a deterrent to the soundhole causing collapse. I have no experience with X bracing.

8ch(pl)

Jun-29-2007, 3:06pm

The Forerunner to the Gibson Army and Navy Model, the Alrite (made 1917 only) had 2 tonebars, one on each side of the soundhole. The Army - Navy had a traverse bar.

a12

Jun-29-2007, 3:15pm

John,
So if there was no soundholes, there would be no need
for a brace?
How much does bracing contribute to the sound?
I thought I heard only about 5%.

Paul Hostetter

Jun-29-2007, 4:16pm

Oh Bill - no no no no.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Bill Snyder

Jun-29-2007, 5:15pm

I was horrified to find these in a 1924 snakehead, it sounded terrible.
I'm sorry to hear that...I've sort of been pondering the tonebar/oval possibility for a while. The consensus doesn't seem to look too good for it though.
Are you reading the same thread I am? I see no such consensus in this thread. There have been posts about successes with tone bars on oval holes and only one "it sounded terrible" and that was about one instrument.
Where is the consensus?

Paul Hostetter

Jun-29-2007, 5:54pm

For the record, the only collapsed A's I have rebraced differently had extremely thin tops, which is why they collapsed. Redoing the little transverse brace would have been pointless because it wasn't sufficient to do anything in the first place. I felt the alternative rebarring was not only successful but in the x-braced ones resulted in extraordinary-sounding A's.

8ch(pl)

Jun-29-2007, 6:59pm

I have posted before about an Alrite being converted to X bracing by a local luthier. It was very nice sounding in this configuration, but I have never played an original. I played an Army - Navy at the same time and it did not come up to the Alrite, though it was Alright too.... Based on this I can see what Paul said in the above post about X bracing.

This particular Alrite had a rippled top,parallel with the tone bars. I beleive I was told this is common with Alrites. The Luthier was able to save the original top. It was installed with no induced arch that I could see.

Jim Rowland

Jun-29-2007, 8:59pm

I recently built an "A" oval (my first one)and used X bracing. I was quite pleased with the sound of it and so was the client.
Jim

first string

Jul-02-2007, 9:20am

Hans

Jul-02-2007, 10:05am

James, keep in mind that those "tone bars" in the pix that Gail submitted look like 2 X 4's. I would imagine that a tone barred oval could very well be made to sound excellent...but it would be a different sound compared to the traditional transverse, and possibly even different compared to X bracing, K bracing, H bracing etc. Those of us that stick to transverse do it out of trying to replicate the traditional tone.

Mario Proulx

Jul-02-2007, 11:19am

I'll add that the tone bars and oval hole combinations don't sound 'bad' at all, but my preference for the X braced oval is that it sounds more traditional, more like it would if it had the little transverse brace, yet with a bit more 'cutting' power, perhaps, via a lighter overall build.

first string

Jul-02-2007, 11:50am

Thanks guys. Perhaps I was reading a bit much into some of the previous statements. I wish it were easier to make first hand comparisons. But I imagine finding two comparable instruments with different bracing patterns is quite difficult, thus isolating that one variable is pretty much impossible for your average joe. I guess we just have to rely on the expertise of builders like you all, who have done some experimenting. Cheers.

Oh...and Mario, if you don't mind me asking, how would you describe the sound of your tone bar braced ovals. I'm amongst those that don't believe terms like woody, or dry, or whatever, really convey much of anything. But there are some things which can be described. You said less cutting power, but how did they rate in terms of say, sustain?

Hans

Jul-02-2007, 12:25pm

Toss in long and short necks, red spruce, Italian, Sitka, Englemann, Euro maple, sugar maple, red map...well you get the idea. Most all of us builders wish we could experiment with every combination imaginable, but that's impossible. That's why we stick to what we know, and mostly don't venture out into the netherland much.
Not enough time...

Paul Hostetter

Jul-02-2007, 1:03pm

Sad but true...

Mario Proulx

Jul-02-2007, 2:28pm

True, there are countless combinations,....

That's why I have my test mules with the removable backs, that i played around with a lot, years ago. One of them happened to be an oval hole A style. It was with this one that i tried tone bars, transverse, Y and X patterns, even a single brace(ALA StroMberg) and with many various variations of each. I didn't even have to take the strings off these mandolin to make bracing changes, and i could often play it again within the same day, and followed every change with a return to the previous "best" pattern/setup before trying something else. Very much like when the eye Doc tests your vision using the "better/worse" deal. I kept liking the X setup the most....

James, with tone bars, the mandolin just starts to sound like a regular f hole mandolin with tone bars, perhaps one that is a bit muffled, if that makes sense. Nothing terrible, but if I have an oval hole, there's a certain tone I expect ad desire.

first string

Jul-02-2007, 2:39pm

Thanks again Hans and Mario. From what you're saying Mario, I don't think it would be for me. The more I become interested in ovals, the more I am resistant to designs that compromise the characteristics of the oval. Which is not to say that I'm not interested in alternatives to the traditional, but that I would prefer to have more ringing sustain rather than more power.

bulldog

Jul-02-2007, 3:41pm

Well, I started this thread and it seems to have fully answered my question. Im going with the transverse mounted brace. I have a 1924 gibson snakehead AJr which is the benchmark for all things oval hole. If I could get close to that id be happy.