Luthier [Archive] - Mandolin Cafe Forum

sunburst

Jun-21-2007, 10:26am

There have been long discussions, articles written, arguments argued, etc. about the distinctions that make one a "luthier".

What makes one a musician?
It's about the same thing. In either case, if you do it for a living, and someone asks you what you do for a living you can say "I'm a musician" or "I'm a luthier" (then go through your scripted answers to all the usual questions) and nobody can really challenge the fact that you are, in fact, a musician or luthier.

On the other hand, what makes one a physician?
If you have a(n) MD degree, are 'board certified', and practice as a physician, and someone asks you what you do for a living you can say "I'm a doctor". If you have the MD, are 'board certified' and you work as a chef, you can still say "I'm a doctor" even though you don't do it for a living, but if you practice medicine without a(n) MD and a license, there are courts of law that will challenge you if you say "I'm a doctor".
On the other hand, if you are a musician or a luthier as a hobby, most people will be OK with you saying "I'm a musician" or "I'm a luthier".

So I think the main source of confusion over who is or is not a luthier comes down to the lack of required credentials to call oneself a luthier. After all, I can go online, ask questions, read articles, build instrument kits, repair junkers, and hang out a shingle and work as a luthier whether or not I'm really capable of high quality instrument building and/or repair. I don't need a license. That's one of the reasons people ask around for luthiers, and word of mouth are reputation are everything for luthiers. You can only tell the hacks from the real things by their work (not their credentials, their web sites, their line of BS, or whatever). (Unfortunately, it's as hard to tell the hacks from the real things in the medical and other professions too, but they can hide behind their credentials, so licensing works both ways.)

Back in the days of the guild system, an apprentice gradually "earned" the right to call him/herself a "master craftsman", so there was a credential. The guild system no longer works in modern society, for better or worse, so there is no longer a credential for luthiers and other trades people other than their work itself.

I could write an article on this subject, or more correctly an editorial, since it's mostly my own musings and opinions, but those are my basic ideas on the subject.

EDIT
...and as I suspected, in the time it took to write all that, four posts showed up...

Chadmills

Jun-21-2007, 10:45am

sunburst

Jun-21-2007, 10:54am

...calling yourself a "master luthier"--even if you are pretty good--is another deal entirely....
That one has always bugged me too. Sort of pretentious, seems to me, considering the lack of credentials and the lack of a modern guild.

Back when I worked for a manufacturer, we had the discussion in the shop one day about who was or was not a "master luthier". We concluded that the boss must be the master luthier, and that must mean the rest of us were...well, I had a few of these business cards printed...

thistle3585

Jun-21-2007, 10:58am

I'm not a luthier, and wouldn't think of calling myself one, but just some guy that builds instruments when he gets a chance. I am a professional woodworker, because thats how I make a living, but I wouldn't call a guy who does it as a hobby a professional woodworker even if he had more knowledge or skill than I.

JHo

Jun-21-2007, 11:01am

I agree, Spruce & Sunburst. Calling oneself a master anything kind of bugs me. If someone else called me a master of something, I'd be flattered and I'd thank them graciously, but I'd never call myself that even if I felt I were one.

mythicfish

Jun-21-2007, 11:40am

On a lighter/practical note: You might be able to call yourself a luthier after the first 20 checks have cleared.
I like John's card ... mine used to read: "Factotum".

Curt

thunderhawk

Jun-21-2007, 11:52am

Well I am certainly not a luthier, although I am building one through a class but I am a woodworker. I think your have to be a woodworker, and understand how to use the tools of the trade such as how to build jigs for the job...then have a fine appreciation on various parts of an instrument and the various woods utilized and how they should go together and how they should look and how they should sound. Most of all a luthier must have patience because this is the attribute that will produce great results.

As for a mandolin player...I am still learning...listen to my ipod and jam and having a great time of it...my dogs are my best audience.

John Flynn

Jun-21-2007, 12:11pm

Calling oneself a master anything kind of bugs me.
So here's a related question: What qualifies a mandolin to be called a "master model." Can only a "master luthier" make a "master model?" Are all instruments made by a master luthier "master models?" In the guild system mentioned above a "masterpiece" was the work of art that a jouneyman submitted to the guild as part of his "test" to become a "master" and it had to be absolutely perfect in the judgement of the guild. Now the term refers to any piece that is deemed of that quality.

And should only a mandolin that is a "master model" have "The" in front the name on the headstock?

thistle3585

Jun-21-2007, 12:20pm

So here's a related question: What qualifies a mandolin to be called a "master model."
Whatever company copyrights the name first and puts it on their instrument. Its the consumer that attributes "master grade" to any given instrument regardless of whether its a master model, artist model or student model.

Ribeiro

Jun-21-2007, 12:30pm

A luthier should "know" how to work the sound, not only the wood.

Dale Ludewig

Jun-21-2007, 1:35pm

And Jason, I agree also with you, Bruce, and John. I think calling yourself a "master" is pretentious. So is calling yourself an "artist". I think that's for others to decide based on your work. Luthier? There's a whole range of stuff made by people who think of themselves as luthiers. I think one of the most wonderful things I ever heard is on one of the Circle Be Unbroken albums, perhaps the second. John Denver makes a comment about a song they're about to record and whether it's going to be the final cut or something less: "It's all just practices".

sunburst

Jun-21-2007, 1:43pm

Dale, if I had a degree (or not) in art and made my living doing painting or sculpture, and someone asked me what I did for a living, I don't think I would have a problem telling them I was an artist.

As it is, I don't mind telling people I'm a luthier, other than usually having to explain what a luthier is, where the term came from, and why I'm a luthier even though I don't make lutes.
It's easier to say what I usually say: "I build and repair musical instruments"."

JHo

Jun-21-2007, 2:45pm

The artist thing is kind of a grey area, as I know people who I'd consider artists who wouldn't necessarily consider themselves artists, and also people who consider themselves artists who I wouldn't necessarily consider artists. Relativity is a funny thing though.

A friend once asked someone she had just met at an art opening or something what they did for a living, and that person proudly replied "I'm an artiste" (pronounced arteest). My friend then said "Wow. Really. How do you spell that?".

billhay4

Jun-21-2007, 3:01pm

My card reads:
Bill Hay
Effectuator
Since no such thing exists, or hasn't been defined yet, I feel okay about this. You can interpret it as you wish. I interpret it as "someone who gets stuff done."
Bill

PaulD

Jun-21-2007, 3:13pm

I'm with John that someone who produces art should be able to call themselves an "artist." Whether they're degreed or not doesn't matter and whether they're good is in the eye of the beholder. By the same token, someone who builds or repairs instruments is a luthier. If you want to get more specific and call yourself (or someone else) expert, good, bad, hack, loser, or whatever... that gets subjective. If I had as many years as John and some of the others here have under their belts I wouldn't think it would be unreasonable to call myself and experienced or expert luthier, although "expert" would probably come off as pretentious.

What's in a name anyway? I work as a Computer Network Systems Engineer (fancy name for a IT grunt). I've done database administration, Unix, Netware, and Windows system administration, and systems design and analysis work. That all gets pretty nitpicky... to most folks I talk to they refer to me as a Programmer because I work with computers. I'm about as much of a programmer as I am a luthier... I've hacked at both but I'm not proficient at either!

pd

sunburst

Jun-21-2007, 4:02pm

OK, so here's my current "real" business card, and here's how I got around the whole 'what do I call myself?' thing:

(The pixelated part is just contact info. I feel like it would be too much like advertising to post that on a public forum, and it's all available by clicking the signature below this post anyway (thanks, Scott).)

markishandsome

Jun-21-2007, 8:46pm

For a number of years Puppeteers of America (http://www.puppeteers.org/) suspended its "official" Master of Puppetry certification because too many people were calling themselves "puppetmasters" without completing the required number of performances or other hoops set up by the PofA. I believe they will also certify you as a Doctor of Puppetry if you do enough as a Master to advance the art.

I've never felt right calling myself an anything, be it luthier, mandolinist, scientist, studmuffin or whathaveyou. I'm Mark. I make instruments, play mandolins, work in a research lab, and look good doin it, but those are all just things that I do; they don't begin to capture who I am. Call yourself a luthier if you want to, your creations will speak for you in the long run.

(climbing off my high horse ... right ... now!)

M. Montgomery

Jun-21-2007, 9:34pm

I think you can call yourself a luthier when you buy stuff at the grocery store not only for what is in the jars but also what you can do with the jars after they are empty.

PaulD

Jun-22-2007, 7:29am

For a number of years Puppeteers of America (http://www.puppeteers.org/) suspended its "official" Master of Puppetry certification because too many people were calling themselves "puppetmasters" without completing the required number of performances or other hoops set up by the PofA. I believe they will also certify you as a Doctor of Puppetry if you do enough as a Master to advance the art.
I've been looking for a new calling to satisfy my mid-life crisis... I think I'm going to become a Doctor of Puppetry! Or maybe just an Anesthesiologist of Puppetry? I'm best at making puppets look like they're sleeping. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

pd

Klaus Wutscher

Jun-22-2007, 7:48am

Actually, at least in Germany and Austria, a formal training is still required to work as a luthier, and all the noted builders from around here are violin builders by trade as far as I know. Technically, as I understand it, you may not work or advertise as a builder if you don´t have a degree around here. Of course, there are some builders (mostly building electric guitars) that "fly under the radar", but to run a serious shop (like Martin Seeliger/Lakewood or others) yoiu need a degree.

Hans

Jun-22-2007, 8:08am

Apprentice...having sawn one or more instruments in half.

Luthier...having sawn 3 or more instruments in half.

Master Luthier...having sawn 5 or more instruments in half. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

otterly2k

Jun-22-2007, 8:59am

Got my saw... ready to get started!
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

sunburst

Jun-22-2007, 10:42am

Master Luthier...having sawn 5 or more instruments in half. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Hmmm, I think I'll just go to school in Germany instead, it would be cheaper, and the beer is better too.

kestrel

Jun-22-2007, 11:24am

sunburst

Jun-22-2007, 11:58am

What is the saying? The proof of the pudding is in the eating? Actually, you can "call" yourself anything you please, but if you call yourself a duck, you'd better walk like a duck, look like a duck, and quack like a duck, or folks will likely know you aren't a duck. I think that also holds pretty much true with calling yourself a luthier. Gene
Sounds simple enough, but who's to say who is or is not a luthier? Does that mean the instruments have to be up to a certain standard of cosmetics, fit and finish etc.? Does it mean they have to be up to a certain standard of sound? Both? If so, who's standards? Do they need to last many years with no structural problems? Does the builder have to build some minimum number to qualify? A certain number of repairs? a certain number sawn in half? Are only good luthiers actually luthiers? Is there no room for good and bad lutheirs?

Personally, I don't want the job of deciding who is and who is not a luthier from judging what they build. Even thinking that I could, I believe, would be even more pretentious than calling myself "master luthier".

OK, so maybe it's one of those "I know it when I see it" sort of things, but as long as there is no official credential from some official board recognized universally as having the authority to bestow "lutherie" upon instrument builders and/or repairers, there will always be room for debate on who is and who isn't rightfully a luthier. Furthermore, if said universally recognized board did exist, they would have to come up with a more-or-less arbitrary place to draw the line between who is and who ain't.

So anyway, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, but if you like the instrument (pudding), what difference does it make what the builder calls him/herself?

PaulD

Jun-22-2007, 12:14pm

Is it pretentious to refer to yourself as a Master Wood & Wire Butcher?

oldwave maker

Jun-22-2007, 12:18pm

With apologies to the late charles sawtell, since I cant part with my stan musial rookie card. Came in handy in meetings with state and federal experts when fighting a local coppermine that wanted to dewater oldwave holler. Just means I may know less of nuthin than someone else....

Jim Rowland

Jun-22-2007, 12:56pm

I've sometimes been told that I waddle like a duck,and I recently discovered that one of my mandolins has a quack in the top. Does this mean anything?
Jim

Lab

Jun-22-2007, 1:15pm

Since I started this topic....I would like to say that most of you are very very modest Luthiers. I go and look at the works of art that you guys do and I turn green with envy. To me instrument building is indeed a work of art coupled with a love for taking a piece of wood and turning it into a piece of art and making it sound as good as we possible can....Most people can paint a picture on a canvas. The artist will paint a picture that can move people in different ways....The Luthier builds an instrument that if done properly will move people in the same way....The musician takes that instrument and can totally captivate an audience....When I see a great guitar player i usually pay attention to the instrument that helps make him sound that way.....My greatest pride is to pass an instrument to a player and sit and listen to my work......Few people can do that......Thanks Lab

ApK

Jun-22-2007, 4:20pm

The guild system, as mentioned by John, used to cut both ways, it checked the quality of its members' work, but also prevented anyone else doing that type of work, sometimes violently! #
Just a nitpick: #That's not cutting both ways. #That's cutting decidedly, heavily, one way!

BTW, #To call yourself engineer, you should have an engineering degree, to call yourself a doctor, you should have a doctorate, to call your self a lawyer, you should have passed the bar, and to call yourself a Realtor, you should be a member of the Association of Realtors (or so they say on the commercial.)

But what's the controversy over 'luthier' or 'mandlolinist' or 'musician'? #I'm not aware of any requirments or pretense or expectation regarding any of those terms beyond their simple definitions.

It's different if someone asks you about your livelyhood. #Using the terms don't imply any level comptetence or source of income. #It would be wrong to imply THOSE things whatever words you use.
If some asks you what you do for a living, it doesn't matter if you say "I build and repair stringed instruments," #or "I'm a luthier." #If you don't build and repair stringed instruments for a living, you're wrong either way. #If you do, you're right either way.

In his book "Rebel Without a Crew," #filmaker Robert Rodriguez says something like "If you really want to make a movie, stop saying 'I want to be a filmmaker' #or 'I'm an aspiring filmmaker.' #Say you are filmmaker. #You are, even if you're still working on your first film in your head."

I'm a lousy, beginning, amature musician. #But I am a musician nonetheless. #When the jam host's spouse answers the door and asks "are you a musician here for the jam or are you here to fix the dishwasher?" #I have no hesitation saying "I'm a musician."

Jerry Stapleton

Jun-23-2007, 5:23pm

Back in my younger an healthier days, I laid brick for a living. In some circles I called myself a brick mason, in other certain circles I was known as a burnt clay artist------

delsbrother

Jun-23-2007, 7:47pm

Master, master, wheres the dreams that Ive been after?
Master, master, you promised only lies
Laughter, laughter, all I hear and see is laughter
Laughter, laughter, laughing at my cries!

nelson_luthier

Jun-24-2007, 8:57am

Reading through this thread and listening to everyones responses I couldn't help but think of this article by William Cumpiano. A pedagog's lament (http://www.cumpiano.com/Home/Articles/Articles/pedagog.htm) I think it expresses the range of thoughts and the great deal of humilityI see among those who participate here.

Greg N

sunburst

Jun-24-2007, 10:42am

That is a good article by Cumpiano, IMO.
I've been searching in vain for an on-line copy of one I read a few years ago by the even more opinionated Ervine Somogyi who said only someone who is capable of and does build top quality guitars from the first step to the last by him/herself is a luthier.
According to that, as long as I'm building mandolins I'm not a luthier at all.

Dale Ludewig

Jun-24-2007, 12:16pm

John, I agree that Cumpiano's article is very good.

I've been away from the cafe for a few days and want to clarify something and perhaps correct myself. I stand by what I said about calling oneself a master: it sounds pretentious. But I will correct myself: if you're a painter of paintings, I guess I think it's okay to call oneself an artist. If you said you were a "painter", one thinks of houses and walls. Of course, calling yourself an artist (painter type) doesn't make you a good one in all others' eyes. I was using the term "artist" to refer to craftsmen (women also) who declare themselves artists. I guess I define the difference is whether or not the end product has, or could have, a utilitarian purpose. This is not to say that others might view one's work as art; I think that's fine and desired. And should be a goal.

I may be Han's definition. I know over the years I've sawed up at least 5 instruments. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

kestrel

Jun-24-2007, 12:35pm

Doesn’t it all boil down to definition – and who is doing the defining? In my earlier post, I said that if you call yourself a duck, you’d better walk like a duck, quack like a duck… or folks will likely know you’re not a duck. I suppose I should have qualified that with “real ducks”. If you were transplanted into a society where ducks didn’t exist, you could most likely get away with passing yourself off as a duck – at least, until a real duck – or someone who had seen a real duck came along.

I live in a quite an isolated valley in the Appalachian region of Pennsylvania. Most of the people, here, haven’t got a clue what a luthier is. Many of the folks I know, who play any kind of stringed instrument, don’t even know how to tune them. Before I met them, they were driving to the nearest music store (thirty-miles away), and paying some dude to tune their instruments. Set-ups were unheard of. In fact I’ve got two guitars lying here, right now, that I’m going to lower the action on. The owners have played for fifty-years, and didn’t even know why their fingers would get so sore. I could easily hang out a shingle calling myself a luthier, and most folks wouldn’t be the wiser. But somebody would. But, even that would be relative. I can do some minor repairs. Does that qualify me to call myself a luthier or an instrument repairman? I suppose I could, but I certainly won’t.

Everything – that can’t really be quantified – is relative, and comes in degrees. It depends on who is doing the defining, and setting the “formal?” standards. As John pointed out, Ervine Somogyi said, “Only someone who is capable of and does build top quality guitars from the first step to the last by him/herself is a luthier.” But – even that needs to be defined. What is the “first step”? : Buying the wood from StewMac?; splitting out the billets?; cutting down the tree?; planting the seed?; catching the beetles for making the shellac?

I’ve just retired from my own home inspection business of eleven-years. The three states in which I’ve operated, have now mandated what a “home inspector” is, and have established their definitions, and requirements for licensing. Before I hung out my shingle, and began calling myself a home inspector, I had spent forty-years restoring antique homes, building new homes, and actively functioning in all the building trades. I consider myself to be quite good at what I did but, I’m sure there are those who are much better than I. Does that mean I shouldn’t call myself a home inspector? Now, the states say that some nineteen-year-old who’s only previous job has been running the window at Mc Donald’s can, by taking a short course, and by passing their test, and having enough money to pay for all the insurances and the license, will now be known as a “certified”, bona fide, Home Inspector. I wish them well.

These things will always be relative, and subject to definition. Even with the old guild system, I’m sure there were always degrees of excellence in the abilities of the graduates. Some of them had to be duffers. I’m sure they all called themselves luthiers, or whatever the equivalent term of the times was. The Stradivaris? The Amatis? They excelled, and we know about them. The others? The pretenders? They have faded into the shadows. IMO, it will always remain. Call yourself what you will. Call yourself a duck, if it makes you happy, but I assure you, real ducks will know.

I think I’ll just stick with “tinkerer”, and try to be the best darned tinkerer I can.

jim_n_virginia

Jun-24-2007, 4:57pm

I don't see any problem with calling yourself Master anything... but one thing for sure you better know everything there is to know or close to it if you call yourself a Master Journeyman.

My father had no problems with calling himself a Master carpenter after 20 years in the Navy as a Seabee and another 20 in the private sector building everything that could be made out of wood.

One of my good friends calls himself a MAster plumber and advertises as such and after 30 years in the business there is no problem he cannot fix as far as plumbing.

I do agree it is a little tacky to call yourself a Master anything is you really don't know everything there is about whatever it is you do.

But I do think that there ARE certain occupations that should not refer to themselves as Master's for any reason... for instance I have a friend who has been a professional baiter for a charter fishing boat.

What would he call himself? A Master ...errrr never mind! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

mrkrishna

Jun-24-2007, 10:15pm

When I started playing guitar at age 20, I did'nt have a job, had money and just fell in love with the guitar's musical possibilities. I played up to 8 hours a day,then bought a 12 string guitar, and when I finished my 8 hours, I'd pick up that one and it was like I had not played in days. This love affair went on for almost two and a half years. After another 3 years of a similar amount of playing, I still could not begin to think of myself (or call myself) a 'musician'.It was way too lofty and highfalootin' for me to do that. I have built a few mandos,and am in the process of setting up a large (for me) shop to build emandos. Three or four years down the road, once I've made a few dozen, maybe someone else will call me a Luthier, but I doubt that I ever will...Kerry K

HoGo

Jun-25-2007, 3:24am

This is cery interesting topic. I tend to agree to what John Hamlett and Spruce posted.
I just build instruments and repair them in my spare time.
I made almost ten instruments from scratch, repaired a lot for most local pickers and lately I've been sought after by folks who screwed up some repair (often master luthiers) to fix their mistakes. But I would not call myself a master luthier (or even luthier because the lack of formal education) just because my respect to the word. One has to deserve and earn the title with lots of work and sweat.

The guild system still works in some countries. Namely in the Czech republic there is a Guild of master luthiers with long tradition. It survived through the communist era (when private businesses weren't allowed) as communists too realized that luthiery at the master level has been serious art for centuries. From what I know, if you wnat to become a master luthier you should be nominated by two members and apply with two handbuilt instruments. The commitee of the guild will either accept the new member or reject depending on quality of the instruments and interview. This really works, but there are always those butcher folks who use the "master luthier" title.
Here in Slovakia formal education in luthiery has been almost inaccessible for many years so very few (if any) luthiers here can be called Master luthiers. There is also a Guild of Slovak Luthiers here with similar rules like the czech one, but it was founded three years ago by the few local violinmakers so being a member says nothing.
I wonder how the violin societies in the USA work (like VSA, ASIA etc.) Is there such organisation for mandolin makers?

sunburst

Jun-25-2007, 8:33am

I attended a meeting of ASIA in 1989 or 1991 where they were discussing who should be a member, if work should be juried, whether membership should be open to all interested parties or only to "qualified" luthiers, whether to have more than one type of membership, etc. Probably 15 minutes into that discussion, I got my first real look at how difficult the question of who is or is not a luthier is to answer.

It is a word that should have a definition, but because of the lack of any universally recognized qualifications, becomes a "matter of opinion" instead. We are free to use our own definition.

Adrian, I don't know of any organization exclusively or predominantly for mandolin makers here in the US. This board is about as close as anything I know of!

As for calling oneself a luthier, I have no problem with someone being an amateur or part time luthier and considering him/herself a lutheir. I don't hesitate to call myself a luthier, having done this "for a living" for almost 20 years, and while I could never feel comfortable wearing the title "master luthier", It's fine with me if someone does call themselves "master luthier", but only if he/she has much well rounded experience with many aspects of lutherie; building, repairing, teaching, etc.. There will always be those among us who are the most experienced, have the most knowledge, have gained the most insight into instruments, and are the most consistent in their work. Those are the masters, whether formally trained or not. Training just gets you started anyway, experience is what makes you a master, and in particular learning from your experience. There may come a time when some of us involved in this discussion are among those with the most knowledge and experience. Some may be there now. There's no good way for the rest of to know who the masters are without an intimate knowledge of their work, but whoever they are, let them wear the title "master luthier" if they want to, they've earned it.

Bill Snyder

Jun-25-2007, 9:47am

From Merriam Webster online dictionary -
luthier -: one who makes stringed musical instruments (as violins or guitars)
I have built some stringed instuments but I know better than to call myself a luthier.
Some amatuer's have built several instruments and are very skilled. For them using luthier is fine. (I do not fit that description yet). I think wannabe's like me that have built just a few ok but not wonderful instruments it would be a bit pretentious to use the title.

PaulD

Jun-25-2007, 10:04am

I stand by what I said about calling oneself a master: it sounds pretentious. But I will correct myself: if you're a painter of paintings, I guess I think it's okay to call oneself an artist. If you said you were a "painter", one thinks of houses and walls. Of course, calling yourself an artist (painter type) doesn't make you a good one in all others' eyes. I was using the term "artist" to refer to craftsmen (women also) who declare themselves artists. I guess I define the difference is whether or not the end product has, or could have, a utilitarian purpose. This is not to say that others might view one's work as art; I think that's fine and desired. And should be a goal.
Thanks for posting Cumpiano's article link, Greg, it is a good read... it really puts things into perspective. It applies across trades and to American society as a whole; Cumpiano is just seeing a symptom of a larger trend. I wonder if it's as bad in other countries... I think many of us in the U.S. expect praise for our work and an unrealistically high standard of living as a right rather than something to work for.

To Dale's point, it's true that the term "artist" is explains better what a painter of pictures does than "painter" does, although the term artist implies creative vision (to me anyway) so I don't think the run-of-the-mill landscapes, cabins in the woods, or still-life bowls of fruit qualify someone to call themselves an artist. Then you have folks like Picasso, who was obviously an artist but I don't care for his work.

Where's the line between artist, artiste, artisan, and craftsman? When I made turned wooden kaleidoscopes for a living while in college I sold my work through art galleries and at arts festivals. People referred to me as a artist but I never felt comfortable with the term. I always felt I was more of a craftsman... maybe an artiste. I did develop the craft to the point that I feel like I build some of the best kaleidoscopes available, and there is quite a bit of creativity and imagination in high-end kaleidoscopes, but I guess the lack of formal training in "the arts" made me feel unworthy of the title "artist."

Are instrument builders artists? One of the things I've always loved about instruments is the art and sensuality in their curves and proportions. I've seen what I would consider works of art out of luthiers on this forum... absolutely awe inspiring for their selection of woods, bindings, proportion and blending of elements, and finish work. Even a copy like Gary Vessel's interpretation of Big Mon's Loar require and artistic vision, attention to detail, and mastery of woodworking techniques to pull off. Whether or not the builders here are "master luthiers" or not I consider many to be fine artists.

Cumpiano refers to one student in a job referral as being "pretty good with his hands but has precious little humility." I think that's what how you label yourself boils down to... humility. It takes a certain lack of humility to call yourself a "master", "expert", or even "artist" when you haven't really mastered your craft. A person of humility is likely to err on the side of not calling themselves a master when they deserve the title.

pd

Links

Jun-25-2007, 2:44pm

Good topic - great answers from all the "usual suspects"!

Bill Bussman cracks me up!

I am also in a profession that is hard to define as to "who is" and "who isn't" (Golf Course Architect). As a matter of fact, a friend of mine claims that there are more golf course architects than there are people! At least we have a professional organization (American Society of Golf Course Architects) that gives credibility to those that are members. Membership is very difficult to achieve, and to become a member, you have to prove to your peers that you are capable of designing superior golf courses (have designed at least five representative courses), are ethical in your business practices, and that the majority of your income is from the design and renovation of golf courses. There are some good architects that choose not to be members and a bunch more that just would not qualify. Jack Nicklaus is a member of our organization, but was not admitted until he was deemed to be making more of his income from designing courses than playing them. Other PGA Tour pros that claim to be architects (in many cases, not all) are merely "fronts" and are architects in "name" only.

Luthiers could certainly create a professional organization that would serve as a "standard" for the profession, but it would cost money (dues) and unless most of the acknowledged luthiers joined, it would not have a lot of credibility. At some point, someone in the organization (member or members) would have to start making "value" judgements as to whether someone was good enough to gain membership. Then come the lawsuits because someone was not allowed into the group. If there are no standards to get in, then the organization is meaningless.

Quite frankly, the libetarian (not in a political sense) in me says, let the public figure our who is a luthier and who isn't. They vote with their dollars. If you build and repair instrumenst and are making a living at it, then you are a luthier. If you build instruments for your own pleasure or as a hobby, who cares what you are. I do, and no one cares!

Michael Lewis

Jun-26-2007, 12:44am

Your work is your reputatuion. All that you leave in your wake as you do your business is your work. That means not only the instruments and repairs but the dealings you have with customers and suppliers. YOU are your reputation. I advise that you leave only good stuff in your wake.

Hans

Jun-26-2007, 5:13am

Exactly...worry less about what to call yourself. It is what you are called by others at your wake that counts!

Dale Ludewig

Jun-26-2007, 7:21am

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

markishandsome

Jun-26-2007, 11:09am

the term artist implies creative vision (to me anyway) so I don't think the run-of-the-mill landscapes, cabins in the woods, or still-life bowls of fruit qualify someone to call themselves an artist.

So was Monet just a painter? Are all the folks building Loar clones not luthiers? Art is the process of creating something beautiful, and beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

If selecting bindings and finish colors qualifies as art, I don't see how you can deny that a still-life painting is art too. The artist chose the paint colors, applied great skill in reproducing the subject, and probably spent a good while arranging the fruit in the bowl.

The only thing I've ever taken away from a "what is art" (or luthiery) debate is that it truly does not matter. The labels we put on things do nothing to effect the way they make us feel. If the International Guild of Artists published a statement that still-lifes and landscapes were categorically not art, I would still enjoy looking at them exactly as much as I did before. If you played a lousy mandolin at a store, would you jump up and buy it when the proprietor told you it was made by a "master luthier"?

Some people say our use of language and tools is what distinguishes humans from the rest of the animal kingdom. I saw it's our art. So lets enjoy the beauty of our creations and forget about what to call them.

PaulD

Jun-26-2007, 11:28am

Okay... so I was too broad with my definition. I was really referring to the "paint by numbers" crowd, or "copyist" might be a good term to describe my intended meaning. That's not to say that being a good copyist doesn't require a high level of skill, but it removes the need for creative imagination from the work. So many of these terms are subjective and, as you say, in the end it doesn't really matter. We know what grabs us and what doesn't. Technically, given Webster's definition of an artist "2 a : one who professes and practices an imaginative art b : a person skilled in one of the fine arts" I am incorrect in my statement, but I did qualify it by saying that "to me" being an artist implies a certain level of imagination.

On the question of whether someone that builds Loar clones (or Stradivari clones) a luthier... sure they are. I don't think there's anything in any definition of luthiery that requires that the instrument be an original design... a luthier is a builder of stringed instruments. I think a "master luthier" would likely be an accomplished copyist, and may or may not have original instrument designs or interpretations on existing designs.

pd

markishandsome

Jun-26-2007, 1:49pm

Not art?

Sam price

Jun-26-2007, 3:29pm

I have been reading all this with great interest, as I am attempting to build stringed instruments myself....

...the real highlight of this thread is the Cumpiano article. What I read of his writings a few days ago it still milling around in my mind.

artdeco

Jun-26-2007, 4:49pm

JEStanek

Jun-26-2007, 5:34pm

If I recall my art history class (goodness that's a long time ago to remember an elective), Da Vinci developed the technique to bring light out of darkness. His use of color and light was revolutionary. This is an excellent example of that technique. I'm interested in many old paintings where the same model is painted again and again. Like the Birth of Venus by William-Adolphe Bouguereau where all of the women are the same model or The Martydom of St. Sebatian by Antonio Pollaiolo were all the men are the same model.

Look at the fit and finish on many Loar mandolins. Not so nice compared to modern builders but Loar developed many great techniques for mandolin construction.

Kind of beside the current point. I think here in America, people throw around labels very loosely some times. The Red Cross calls people who donate blood frequently heroes. I don't think of myself as one. I'm just doing my civic duty and staying connected to my dad who also donated.

I think many builders, many of those posting even, are excellent builders whom I wouldn't hesitate to call artists or master builders in my opinion based on what I've seen and read. I appreciate the humility they bring to this and other threads. They are so approachable. Fumbling through an IV kit makes me appreciate what these men and women can accomplish.

The proof of a builders skill is the mandolins they leave out in the public with their name on the label and how they dealt with folks to get them there. So much of the rest is just posturing.

Jamie

Lab

Jun-26-2007, 6:23pm

Anybody who paints knows that you can't have light without darkness and visa versa....The Mona Lisa is not an exceptional painting. Its just a simple portrait...You eye is directed to the light on her left breast and the hair leads you up to a face whose eyes are not looking at you but something over your right shoulder....and I know what it is........................Its her lover playing a brand new mandolin that he just finished building.........LOL.....Lab

JEStanek

Jun-26-2007, 7:30pm

"Sfumato is a term used by Leonardo da Vinci to refer to a painting technique which overlays translucent layers of color to create perceptions of depth, volume and form. In particular, it refers to the blending of colors or tones, so subtly that there is no perceptible transition.

In Italian sfumato means "vanished" with connotations of "smoky" and is derived from the Italian word fumo meaning 'smoke'. Leonardo described sfumato as 'without lines or borders, in the manner of smoke or beyond the focus plane.

One of the best examples of a sfumato painting is the Mona Lisa " From search.com (http://www.search.com/reference/Sfumato)
I recalled a bit off. Still an important development even if she is looking at a newly built mandolin played lovingly by Dawg Vinci! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Jamie

markishandsome

Jun-26-2007, 7:46pm

I've always wondered why a painting of a fairly ordinary woman, garbed in fairly ordinary clothing became the most famous/revered painting/art work in the world. Must have something to do with the 'Master' who produced it.

So if it was a painting of Paris Hilton wearing the Crown Jewels of England you'd be more impressed?

Mando Medic

Jun-26-2007, 10:45pm

I've been reading this string with interest and almost did not respond: However. I have taught repair and building for nearly 40 years, wrote a paper for GAL about apprenticing about 20 some years ago and here's my take on when you can be called a luthier and by whom. In my shop, an apprentice is one who works in the repair and building craft for at least two full years, not paid as a repair tech. At that point, you work two more years building and repairing instruments as a paid apprentice. At that point and by my discretion I say they are a luthier. I wish the GAL had some guidelines or a board review and a test at the annual GAL convention to certify and enhance this program, but they don't. So with that said, I guess anyone who has the nerve to call themselves a Luthier can do so. But I think that anyone who builds from scratch at least one string instrument a year for 4 years could in fact be called a luthier. In my book, a person who has never built but specializes in string instrument repair and has a reputable following could also be considered a Luthier if they can do competent repair on all the string family instruments. There are 7 fellows who have apprenticed with me who completed the above procedures and only 3 call themselves luthiers. There have been a few who did not complete training with me who call themselves Luthiers, but I don't feel they are. I think a lot of it has to do with self confidence and modesty. Just my opinion but it works for me. Kenc

dunbarhamlin

Jun-27-2007, 7:12am

So if it was a painting of Paris Hilton wearing the Crown Jewels of England you'd be more impressed?

Well, old Mona isn't cross the street ugly, but she's no oil painting, either http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

The mechanical aptitude of the artisan is undeniable, but I do find it lacking in aesthetic appeal. The contrast between the dour subject and the inconsistent but more artistically proficient background is interesting, but that this is the work of a 'master' lessens da Vinci's legitimacy to me - it's like a nearly successful experiment which should have been destroyed on completion.

Would you expect a conscientious luthier to foist a second rate product on his client and posterity just because he'd tried something new? Or would you rather expect it to be treated as a prototype - either broken down or kept short term for reference while the production version was on the bench?

martinedwards

Jun-27-2007, 7:56am

Well, old Mona isn't cross the street ugly, but she's no oil painting, either http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
actually......... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I'm a hobby Luthier.

Not a master anything!!

artdeco

Jun-27-2007, 9:56am

No, No, don't get me wrong, I think Mona is quite attractive and I have spent my time in front of the original, admiring it. My point is, as has been pointed out, that as in the case of the Loar mandos, people today do it better, but it was a real break with tradition in DaVinci's time, and very successful, I believe.

dunbarhamlin

Jun-27-2007, 3:39pm

Hmmm, sounds like we're somewhere on the same page. Just that however sophisticated and innovative they might be technically, I think the execution of both better suits an early prototype or technical study than the finished product of a master of their respective vocation.

I can imagine both Loar and Da Vinci standing back, looking, and thinking, "That'll do." rather than, "Wow! I've nailed it!"

Many modern luthiers achieve standards of fit and finish inconceivable in a factory instrument of any age. These are craftsmen of the highest calibre.
Some small few modern luthiers have taken the F5 carbuncle and by subtle adjustment to the line realised its aesthetic potential. These are artists.
If the instruments of each play as good as they look, both are luthiers, sans doute.
To be a true master, I feel they should be both creatively and technically exceptional.

Alas, I pursue the art and craft of lutherie as a hobby, but am neither artist, craftsman nor luthier.

Bill Snyder

Jun-27-2007, 6:18pm

...Many modern luthiers achieve standards of fit and finish inconceivable in a factory instrument of any age....
I have never seen one in person but I have read several times of Collings incredible fit and finish. They are factory instruments.

dunbarhamlin

Jun-27-2007, 6:48pm

Yes, thanks Bill, that was certainly too sweeping a statement.

The instrument factories I've visited have all been guitar makers in the Spanish mainland, and were I a purchaser I would invariably have had a pang of disappointment on close inspection of their top of the line models.

Cheers
Steve

bryce

Jun-29-2007, 7:48am

I worked for a well established, well known instrument company previously for about 9 1/2 years. After about 6 or 7 years I was given the title production coordinater. The business cards I was given by the owner also had Master Luthier on them. I told him I was definatly no master of anything. I was told I wasn't getting different cards. A few were given out for contact purpose, but most were pocket size scratch pads. I now have my own instrument business for 4 years and I still do not consider myself a MASTER unless we're talking eating fried chicken. I do consider myself a luthier. Mainly because I don't know what else to call it without going through a whole spill about building and repair. I think a persons work will speak for them as well as return business. However,I would like to thank one of my former work associates who frequents this site. In my opinion he is too humble. I do consider him as close to a master as I have known. And thank him for all the great help and advice he has given. David