Gibson a - a5 mandolins

[sean parker]

hello. i've been casting about for an affordable vintage mandolin, and there are a decent amount of teens to '40's Gibson A models about. i am more familiar with guitars, and was wondering whether these mandolins were truly worth the 2-3 grand price range, in terms of sound, playability and vibe. i hope it's not a too stupid question as, like i said above, i know my guitars, but am new to mandolins.
thanks.

[bradeinhorn]

actually, you can often find ajr,a,a1,and a2 well under 2000. often under 1000 for the less frilly models.

they are definately hit or miss, and running some searches here in the archives will tell you what to look for structurally and cosmetically.
make sure you buy with approval period and have someone who knows what they are doing do a structural inspection.

good luck,
brad

[David Hanson]

Teens A models are generally good quality and very reasonably priced.

Dave H

[sean parker]

dave & bradeinhorn, many thanks. approval period doesn't apply to me as i live in australia, so i have to rely on the seller and my gut. every little bit of info helps, so thanks again.

[Klaus Wutscher]

I´m not into the vintage market too much, but 2-3 grands for a 30ies or 40ies A model seems much- at that time, the quality of the mandolins had been steadily declining for 15 years or so...

There are some great Gibsons from the teens and of course a jrs. and plainer A models from the 20ies that can knock your socks off- go with reputable dealers and they should be able to steer in the right direction.

[bradeinhorn]

in that case, i'd get lots of pics, know what to look for, get full disclosure on work that has been done, and most importantly, buy from a reputable dealer.

also, stay out of the thirties and forties and more in the teens through mid twenties.

[Bob DeVellis]

As you get into the 20's (past 1921 or so) you start to pay a premium. Having some of the 20's features like a truss rod may be desirable but my personal opinion is that the teens (and up to the pre-truss-rod 20s) oval holes are the best bang for the buck among mainstream vintage mandolins. Call a reputable dealer who will give you a hands-on description and play the instrument over the phone. Although phone fidelity is pathetic, you can make some general comparative judgments on that basis. I've found places like Elderly, the Music Emporium, and others to be pretty frank in their assessments of instruments and they have talked me out of purchases when they thought I wouldn't be satisfied.

The old instruments have a sound that's all their own and the best way to get it is by buying vintage from a reliable source. On the other hand, there are some current builders who also make very nice instruments for under $2K. But if you want the vintage vibe, it can still be found at what I consider a very favorable price for the quality.

[sean parker]

thanks everybody. will stay clear of the 30's and 40's - never saw one that appealed anyway. and thanks re: another look at gibsons from the teens. i tend to always look for truss-rods out of safety, but i will take a closer look.

what does everybody think of the mandolin headquarters store? i think it's www.vintagemandolins.com

how do you guys rate stradolins?

thanks

[atetone]

Stradolins are all over the map.
The quality of build varies greatly.
Some are solid woods all the way around and some are laminate (plywood) all the way around and some are a combination.
I have one that a solid spruce top and laminate back and sides that is a pretty good mandolin for the price.
On the other hand I have one that is all laminate that is not even close.
I have another one that appears to be all solid woods and is nicely built but it has a broken brace since the day I bought it so I can't comment on tone and playability.
I have handled quite a few Stradolins and in my opinion you shouldn't buy one sight unseen. They vary way too much.

[sean parker]

david, bob, klaus & bradeinhorn - what do you think of these?
www.vintagemandolin.com/21gibsona_68549_fon11603.html
www.vintagemandolin.com/18gibsona1blacktop_nsn.html

are these the kind of thing you're talking about?

atetone-understood about strads. always want one, but each time, i hesitate. thanks for the advice.

[Martin Jonas]

Those look to be two fine Gibsons. Charles Johnson is a very respected dealer, so I would expect the descriptions to be accurate. Personally, the 1921 A appeals to me more than the 1918 A1, but Charles' fairly enthusiastic description of the tone of the A1 may just swing it the other way if you haven't got a chance to try both side-by-side. My 1921 Ajr came from Charles (via two intermediate owners, the first of which took it from the US over here to the UK) and it's a fine loud instrument. I paid substantially less for it than the listed price for either of these two, but then I didn't buy from Charles directly but on Ebay. These prices are somewhat cheaper than I would expect at a respectable dealer in the UK, but US prices tend to be.

Martin

[PhilGE]

Sean, if you're in Australia, get a hold of Peter Coombe (http://www.petercoombe.com/). I know Australia's a big place, but at least you can talk with someone who does great work on A style intstruments. He can offer you some perspective and probably some "local" insights.

G'DAE!
-Phil

[bradeinhorn]

also look up www.retrofret.com - they are here in brooklyn and i have played or would be glad to go try out any of the a styles there. they have a nice selection of clean ones. the two pumpkin topped a-1 mandos are really nice and very reasonable at 1550 and 1600. ask for peter.

[sean parker]

bradeinhorn, cheers and thank you for that offer. very kind. i'll have a look at retrofret. i went to university at hofstra in the late '80's and lived in nyc on and off until the mid 90's. it's a shame i'm not still there - we could have a play.

martin, thanks for the feedback re: charles johnson. there's an impressive line-up of mandolins at his store. why would you prefer the '21?

PhilGE-peter coombe has really interesting australian tone woods doesn't he? it's a 2 year wait though. thanks. have you see graham mcdonald's mandolins? www.mddonaldstrings.com

[Martin Jonas]

martin, thanks for the feedback re: charles johnson. there's an impressive line-up of mandolins at his store. why would you prefer the '21?
Two reasons: one personal preference, the other a bit less so. #I simply prefer the looks of the '21 over the '18 blacktop. #Brown front and back looks nicer to me than black top and light back. #Both are nice, though, so that's not a very strong preference. #Possibly more objectively, the later one already has some Loar-era features, such as the truss rod, and is likely to have a less chunky neck as a result. #Many players prefer that. #The tone of these A styles also changed subtly as they approached the Loar era. #I haven't played enough of them to have a clear picture of that, but in previous discussions here, the early 20s instruments were said to have a more refined and complex tone compared to a more "tubby" (whatever that means) tone for the teens. #The pinnacle of the A styles, at least in price, are the snakeheads which came in just a little bit after 1921, but the '21 A is already pretty close in time to that. #Of course, these are wild generalisations, and there's enough variability between individual instruments to distort these general trends in any case.

Martin

[Klaus Wutscher]

I´ve done business with Charles Johnson before (as a seller) and have nothing but good things to say about him. He will give you an honest description of the instruments. If you want to hear a great sounding loar aera a style, check out Andy Statman. These early 20ies Ajrs are still a bargain imo.Plain Jane, but great sounding.

[sean parker]

martin, klaus - thanks. i've looked all over the net, and if it's going to be a vintage A, then it's down to those two for the price. initially, i liked the black-top, i think because of the praise in the description and i own a '39 black-top HG-00; i'm fond of the look. however, i think i'm taking to the '21. the brown top and wide grain looks so comfortable, like an old pair of brown corduroy trousers. it does have an aura of balance, and reliability. a truss-rod is always a good safety net.

looking at the back of the neck, i can see the V shape. i played gibson guitars with this shape, and whilst not ideal, it's not a big deal. how does this affect mandolin playing?

bradeinhorn-i like the mandos above a bit better than the retrofret ones i think. however, if you're in the neighbourhood, with some time to kill, have a try and let me know. i'm not in a rush. but please, don't go to too much trouble. again, it was kind to offer.

[Martin Jonas]

Well, as I said, I would place some weight on Charles' assessment of tone. You should probably have a chat with him before you make your final decision. I like the slight V-shape of the neck in these, but then again my main classical instrument is an Embergher with a very pronounced V. If you're going with the '21, you probably should experiment with an ebony saddle. Yes, that aluminium saddle is original, but it was a shortlived experiment and you may well find you prefer the tone with an ebony saddle. Cheap enough to swap in and out to see what you like better.

Martin

[Ken Waltham]

For what it's worth, I would check out ebay. You will pay far less, and many ( most)of the dealer mandolins come from there.
To me, the teens Gibson's are the finest mandolins you can buy in that price range. A modern mandolin can't even come close in terms of price value, sound, even availability.
I also feel, contrary to the popular opinion here, it seems, that they are all pretty darn good. I would have no fear buying one on ebay, check out the photos, buy an original example, and you will have one for between $700.00 and 1100.00 USD.
If you desire something a little higher in the Gibson "A" line, expect to pay more. ie, an A3 or A4.
But, that money always comes back to you if you should need to sell down the road for whatever reason.
These mandolins have survived by the thousands for decades now, which is a testament to their quality. I am completely confident one will outlive you, and any amount of years you can put into it.
I think there is something inherent in the design of the Gibson A that gives it a huge, open voice. IMHO, they consistently sound better than their F style counterparts of the period. Not nearly as cool, pretty, or valuble, but I think it's a fair statement.
The only word of caution I would give you, beyond buying an original example is, watch for back shrinkage, and seam separation. Many examples experience a shrinkage of the wood in the back plate. Most of the time, it's a simple seam separation that can be fixed by a commpetant luthier, but, sometimes the back is physically smaller than the area it is meant to cover, because of shrinkage, and that's a bigger problem. It can go back together, and sound just fine, but, it will never cover the area it's supposed to again.
Be confident, there are hundreds of examples for sale every year.

[atetone]

I have bought 3 vintage Gibson A models via ebay.
I have had pretty good luck overall.
The latest one was misrepresented a bit but that is the chance you take. It is going to cost a bit to put it right but you have to be prepared for that. Dissapointing, but I can live with it.
Fortunately I have found a very good luthier who has #agreed to do the work for me.
I don't think the seller tried to cheat me, rather, he is what I refer to as an "under-educated seller",,,, his idea of "excellent" is not the accepted norm for those of us who do a lot of this.
On the other hand, Charles Johnson is a highly knowledgable seller and fully capable of giving you a true assessment.
For that kind of insurance there is a higher price to pay.
Ebay? or reputable dealer?
It comes down to you deciding your own level of risk tolerance and what you are willing to pay for it.

[mandroid]

Sean,
A5 as a type can give a functional advantage, due to the redesign, brought on by L.L.(I think). the neck a bit longer and as a result the bridge location shifted, and the F sound holes.
A guitar player using a 14 fret neck and all of it, may like the extra space off the body to shift movable chord forms up the neck.
... just a thought...

[12 fret]

Based on the number of times posters have in so many words said "hit and miss" and "variable" you might think about putting the same money into a new(er) A model from a good builder. One of the reasons its hard to generalize about vintage instruments is that none have had the same history since they were new. Some were taken care of better than others in the last 70-80 years. Norman Blake once opined that about 1 in 20 Gibson A's was exceptional and the rest went from about average down. If you want vintage, buy vintage but old don't make it good.

[sean parker]

wow, so much good advice. really...thanks http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
martin-i didn't notice the aluminium saddle and yes, i would probably change it to an ebony one. i guess some people like to keep it "authentic" with the aluminium. ken-sinkage and shrinkage are things i don't want to deal with, no matter how minor unless it's a "have to have" instrument. i maybe a little cautious, but i don't want to get stuck with a chronic structural problem. mandroid-yes, that's a thought although it would increase the price somewhat (and tone) which leads to 12fret's point--and i have been thinking about a modern one too. i played a 2 point of graham mcdonald, the other day. you can see it on his site. www.mcdonaldstrings.com it was nice, and it's about the same price as the vintage A mandolins i've been looking at. so there's lots to think about.

thanks again, as the thread goes on, the advice gets more interesting. learning so much. excellent!

[Brian Aldridge]

You said in your initial question that you were casting about for an affordable vintage mandolin. As usual, I found Ken Waltham's post to be full of great thoughts and advice. I have known Ken for a number of years, and I would strongly recommend putting a lot of consideration in his opinion. His experience is vast. Incredibly so.

[sean parker]

thanks brian. i'm in two minds. vintage or non. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[12 fret]

Not totally analagous for musical instruments but... would you want to count on a car from the teens as a daily driver? If you needed surgery, would you want the doctor to use vintage equipment from pre-1920 or the latest development.

[sean parker]

12 fret, i agree with you re: cars and medecine, but i can't see your analogy applying to vintage instruments. i agree also with what you said earlier "old don't make it good." i have played plenty of vintage guitars that were "dead" and some i just didn't hear & see what the fuss was all about, but then it comes down to taste, and what you're wanting the instrument for, and how you wish to treat it.

i've played guitar for ages, and have enough experience buying vintage guitars to feel comfortable doing it. i know what i'm looking for, and who i want to deal with. i've also been pretty lucky and not bought any lemons. but mandolins...not so comfortable, and with my new found enthusiasm for the instrument, i may make a rash decision. so i sit on the fence with everybody's excellent advice, agreeing heartily with both sides.... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[atetone]

My experience with vintage mandolins has been that they all need work to some degree. Nuts, frets, bridges etc,,, not to mention general wear and possibly structural problems such as bowed necks, top sinkage etc,,,
I am not skilled enough to do the work myself so it costs me money to have them worked on.
I allow for that when I buy them.
The main problem that I have with the teens Gibsons is the tuners.
You can't buy replacement tuners for them because the post spacing is different from what is available today. An option is to plug and re-drill for the new spacing but I haven't been able to bring myself to do that. I put up with the tuning problems.
It is a trade-off between vintage mojo and the associated irritants that might come with it; versus new (or used newer) and probably less quirks.
Of course I am speaking in general terms. It is possible to get a vintage mando with no issues but I haven't stumbled across one yet.

[sean parker]

atetone, i haven't has that many problems with vintage guitars, but i know what you're talking about. recently, i bought a gibson hg-oo that had been converted from hawaiian to spanish. i assumed when the seller said it was converted to spanish, that they had reset the neck (as had been my previous experience with another instrument) but when i got it, it hadn't. everything that could be done was done, except the reset. anyway, the guitar was in "under the bed" condition, just amazing, so i wasn't annoyed for too long, and the reset was worth it. this little anecdote is the long way of saying yes, vintage instruments can be a hassle and costly. but if you want the mojo, you have to deal. most of the time, it's no biggie, but there's always something, nothing's perfect.

that's interesting about the tuners. i have a '27 martin guitar, and whilst the tuners work and do their job, a few are bit wonky, and i stress thinking something is going to give. it never does but these days, i'm a bit tired of instruments i can't gig with, which is related to what 12fret was saying. i like to play these things, and play 'em out. my old gibsons are fine, they're solid solid but the martin is a no go. so the vintage vs modern thing continues.

[12 fret]

Not true for everyone but in my case, vintage instruments tend to own me. Liked owning them and playing them but I spent a lot of time and money on upkeep. these days, I mostly own newer stuff and I play more and obsess less. Bottom line is that the factories and the individual builders are probably putting out better intruments than they did in the 30's. Only thing they lack is age,

[tiltman]

Hey there,
Just found this thread so I'll just be chiming in on things already covered.
There is truly something special about 'teens and 20's Gibson A models - and at this time they are truly a bargain in the vintage market. Expect to have some minor issues, my grandma has some minor issues at that age as well.

Security (reputable dealer) vs possible bargain (e-bay).
Depends on your ability to handle risk. Just like buying stocks.
I've dealt with Charles Johnson in the past (also long distance) and he is great to work with.

Best of luck and post pictures when you decide,
Kirk

[mandroid]

I have an aluminum topped bridge on A0, and a walrus ivory top on the a4.
'21 Al'A' has a nice clear, tone, that I like, so it stays as is.
both bought from brick and mortar shops, instead of eb^y.

[sean parker]

it's going to be a toughie deciding

[OregonMike]

Mmmmmmm, not the cheapest but, vintage snakehead...

1923 Snake (http://www.vintagemandolin.com/23gibsona_73612_fon11883.html)

I see no reason this one won't be around for another 100 years and you couldn't play the frets off it. If this was a fiddle it would just be getting broken in at this age. (Look at the freakin' board that top was built from!)

Sean I'm sorry to inform you that the only answer to your dilemma is to buy one of both. Just let us know if you need a Cafe member to write a note explaining this to your wife/partner.

Mike
1916 A-0 Pumpkintop Paddlehead
1924 A-1 Blackface Snakehead
www.MusicMoose.org

[12 fret]

Think you've gotten some solid advice from a lot of different perspectives here. One suggestion I would offer to help you get what you really want would be to take minute, sit down and make a list of your priorites for the instrument. If you get 5-10 properties listed in order of importance to you, you could email some of the dealers you've been referred to and ask them to suggest 1-3 new, used, or vintage instruments that would best serve your criteria.

[sean parker]

mike! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif thanks for that. i had a ###### day, and it was precisely the thing i needed to read. if i need the note, i'll be contacting you. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

12fret, you are always so reasonable. yes, that is a good idea. haven't heard a bad one yet.

[sean parker]

hey, there's an Arches A5 10 in the classifieds for $2100. arches A5 vs. Gibson '21 A. any thoughts?

[atetone]

Well,, Arches vs 21 Gibson?
Sean they are two entirely different animals but both are nice.
This is strictly a case of modern F-hole vs vintage oval-hole.
Very tough to compare the two.
I can't even begin to advise you if you can only have one or the other.
I was scouting out the classifieds earlier today and the one that caught my eye was the 2001 Flatiron for $1160. If I hadn't been on a mando buying frenzy lately I would be checking that one out.
I don't dare buy another one right now.
If I was buying my first decent mandolin I would be calling that seller up and asking for pictures and more info.
If there are no issues with it it might be a good one to delay the MAS for a while and by that time you will be totally hooked and you will end up buying a vintage Gibson anyway.
That's just the way it works,,, don't fight it http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[sean parker]

atetone, i know....(sigh) they are two completely different kettles of fish. but that's all that i've found that i like for the price. how are collings mandolins? it's a good company for guitars (i own a dred, used to own a SJ) but they don't have much attraction for me. i ask because there a MT for sale with wide nut at mando bros for $2041.

i'm going to check out the arches. i've got a good idea what the '21 A is about. heck, it's cheaper. anyway.... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

as far as MAS or GAS is concerned. it's a constant battle, which i curse the internet for. i now have a policy of one in, one out, until i feel that i have suffered enough. then it's in! in! IN! until i feel guilty and it's back to one in, one out again. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[peter.coombe]

"To me, the teens Gibson's are the finest mandolins you can buy in that price range. A modern mandolin can't even come close in terms of price value, sound, even availability."

Mmmm, I would have to disagree with that statement, particularly the sound bit. Grated availability is a problem, but after 15 years of hard work and research, I think I have made enough to prove it is possible to match or beat any Gibson oval hole, period.

Peter