Gelas mandolins

[morgan]

I took advantage of a family trip to Rochester last month to visit Bernunzio’s, to check the place out and more specifically to look at their bowlbacks. They seem to be one of the few retail outlets that keeps a good number of bowlbacks in stock.

They were very accommodating and I played a good section of their mando wall. Certainly worth a visit if you’re in the area. The only bowlback that took my fancy has since been sold (a Ciani). As I was getting ready to leave they said “you might want to try this one out too” and handed me a Gelas mando from the 1920s. Bernunzio’s describes it thus: “ca. 1921. extremely interesting, French made instrument with tear drop shaped body; Curly European maple back and sides; amazing double spruce top with interior vibrating chamber; oval sound hole 13-1/4 inch scale with neck joining at the 10th fret.” It’s a bizarre mando with a double top. The fretboard rests on the upper level, which extends to the soundboard and slants down towards the flat full top of the instrument. The result is that it looks like it has a reverse cant, like a “typical” old bent-top instrument but backwards; it bends in rather than out (there is actually nothing bent, it just looks like it). It has a very unique and cool sound and I was quite taken with it.

Thanks to Alan’s posting about his new Octofone, I found out that Bernunzio’s was having a clearance (thanks Alan!) . This was marked down about a third, and I just took the plunge and ordered it.

A web search reveals little about the maker, other than he was French and made guitars and harp guitars as well.

Can anyone provide more info about these? Thanks for whatever info you can provide.

[morgan]

another foto

[morgan]

the back

[Martin Jonas]

Nice to see somebody actually having one of these. #If you do a search here on the Cafe, you'll find we have discussed them a few times, for example here (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=27;t=41209;hl=gelas). #I tried a couple of times to pick one up on Ebay for lowball bids, but haven't managed yet. #I'm sort of curious to try them, as they seem to have been very dominant in France for a period of several decades, but not curious enough to actually spend much money.

From the various Ebay instruments, it is clear that apart from Gelas himself, a considerable number of French luthiers built these instruments under license from Gelas to use his patented system. #It is also clear that they were first introduced around 1910 and were still built in the 1970s, so they must have been rather more than a flash-in-the-pan curiosity.

Martin

[Paul Hostetter]

They also made Hawaiian guitars:

http://www.lutherie.net/gelas.hawn.jpg

Martin, are you sure they were made into the 70s? I don't think I've seen anything post WWII.

[Martin Jonas]

Martin, are you sure they were made into the 70s?
This (http://www.hboetzkes.com/index.php?page=shop.flypage&product_id=101&category_id=dbdfb90115618801b66ccd58f4bca730&option=com_phpshop&phpshop=327047687c711ab3bc4041cf320f16f3) one is said to be from 1973, for sale at a Dutch dealer for 325 Euro. Has been there a while.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

Lucien Gelas is the inventor of these oddballs. I think, however, he prob had these built under his license. I have a few earlier ones with a Gaudet label and others a little later with a mysterious "JR" on the label. All say "Mandoline Gelas".

Here is one at Sinier de Ridder (http://sinierderidder.free.fr/gb/mandolines/gelasr.html) by Jean Roviès, n° 3911, Paris 1923 (prob the aforementioned JR).

Another maker of instruments in this style was Louis Patenotte. There is a <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Mandoline-Louis-Patenotte-Gelas-m-2-Resonanzboeden_W0QQitemZ300070869461QQihZ020QQcate gory
Z21591QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Patenotte mandolin</a> for sale right now on eBay Germany.

I am not even sure if Gelas ever had any with his own label on them. I have misplaced my copy of Alex Timmerman&#39;s book in which there is one. I will check in it to see if it was actually made by Gelas himself.

Jim

[Paul Hostetter]

I know Daniel Sinier and Françoise de Ridder (what a shop&#33;) a bit and the Hawaiian was theirs. I have a word out to my pal François Charle, who is extremely close with them (he owns their old shop in Paris) for some clarification. He should know.

Seeing this label simply tells me it&#39;s in the style of Gelas, not necessarily licensed:

http://sinierderidder.free.fr/images/mandolines/gelasr6.jpg

It&#39;s like "Maccaferri" guitars.

[Jim Garber]

I believe that "brevetée" means patented. Since there is mention of th4e patent on the label I would think that there was some sort of agreement for making these in the Gelas style between Gelas and JR.

I have a pdf of the actual international patent that Gelas received in 1906. I tried to post it here but it would not work.

I would be very interested in what Mr. Charle has to say on the subject. That hawaiian is a beauty, Paul.

Jim

[morgan]

Thanks to everyone for the input. During my visit to the shop I did not inspect for a label that would indicate whether it was a Gelas Gelas or a somebody else Gelas. It&#39;ll arrive next week and I&#39;ll post more info.

I guess if these were made for at least 50 years by a variety of manufacturers under license, its hard to generalize about them, especially give how rare they seem to be. The few photos I found show variation in design, including the bowlback model at the sinier de ridder site.

I hadn&#39;t contemplated until reviewing the old threads that the string pressure on the bridge is up - making it an even more bizarre design than I&#39;d realized.

Jim, I found that patent in my web search. When you said "I have a few earlier ones" were you referring to photos or mandolins?

[TonyP]

I have a &#39;32 Gelas bowlback, with original case, all in excellent condition. I don&#39;t think it was played much. It even came with a student book, nos strings, and a little bag of picks. The bowlback it&#39;s self it hard for me to hold, but then add the "whale tail" from the double top, it&#39;s lap full. I do love the tone. All I&#39;d ever played before it was cheap no name and Washburn bowls, and didn&#39;t like them at all. There&#39;s a lot of stuff about the Gelas that seem modern to me, like the neck profile and the tone. The other bowls just didn&#39;t fit my hand. But from info here I&#39;ve gleaned, Gelas is not a accepted or sought after brand. Too radical?

[mrmando]

Holy smoked eels, a Gelas mandobass (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150133048230) on eBay...

[morgan]

Tony -

From reading the various threads, it seems like hardly anyone on the board, or at least anyone who has commented on them, has played one. The only comment in the threads, other than yours, about tone described it as "lovely." What little notoriety they have among the cogniscenti seems to derive from interest, or perhaps bemusement, about their construction. I&#39;d never heard of or seen a Gelas before stumbling into this one. My decision was based on ears rather than pedigree. They may be too rare, at least on this side of the pond, to have penetrated mandoconsciousness to the extent of being an “accepted” brand. Maybe we can start a movement.

[brunello97]

A Gelas sold a couple days ago on ebay.fr. #I was watching it but had my head under the hood when bidding ended. Though it needed some work it went for a moderate price it seems:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....=1&rd=1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=008&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=180126642871&rd=1&rd=1)

Curious looking mandolins. #I love to try one out one day.

Mick

[Martin Jonas]

For that price, I would have bid for it, too, but I didn&#39;t see it. Mind you, what happened to this one is what seems to me inherent in the design: the fixed bridge is pulled up rather than down, and eventually the string tension just pulled it apart. Might be quite tricky to fix, especially without having an intact one as template.

Martin

[TonyP]

Mine was bought for me by a friend at my old job(he was a engineer, French owned company, here in the US) who was French. While back in Toulouse he went into a couple of antique stores, and each one had a bowl. This one was in the nicest shape, and the original case, so he got it for me. He was a musician too, but was not really versed in mandolin&#39;s, being an accordion player.
Needless to say I was shocked on several levels. First that he&#39;d given me a mando, and then opening the case to something I&#39;d never seen or dreamed of. It didn&#39;t take long to see, looking at it, that it was unlike any instrument I&#39;d ever seen. At first I thought the top had collapsed or something. But then started looking close, and was amazed. Personally I&#39;ve always been amazed from strictly an engineering standpoint that you could get any sound out of a regular bowl, what with the usual crease right behind the bridge. It&#39;s counter intuitive to do that as it turns the area right behind or close to the bridge stiff. That&#39;s why they put creases in large expanses of sheetmetal to make it stiffer. Well here comes Gelas, not only addressing what on the face of it is a design flaw, but then going even further making the only instrument I know of that the top is not in compression, just the opposite&#33; For the company being around for so long, there doesn&#39;t seem to be that many around. I saw one like mine that was on a mandolin dealer&#39;s website. He called it a double table, and said it was professional grade. Certainly, not all his bowls had that grade, actually just a very few.
I had to put some lube on the tuners as they&#39;d not been touched in who know&#39;s how long. Tuned it up and even with the totally encrusted strings sounded good. Very balanced(amazingly so) and as far as the neck, was easy to play. No cracks and just minor scratches in the bowl and case. I&#39;ve toyed several times about getting rid of it to someone who like bowls and would appreciate it. I just don&#39;t play it

[Bob A]

Not only does the crease, or cant, make the top stiffer, but in fact the top of most bowlbacjks has an arch built in, to further stiffen the top. This makes for a very strong design, so long as no part is conmpromised, and is a determining factor in the sound. It&#39;s how they could build extremely light instruments that would still resist the many stresses imposed by the string tension.

[allenhopkins]

Thanks to Alan’s posting about his new Octofone, I found out that Bernunzio’s was having a clearance (thanks Alan&#33;) .
You&#39;re welcome&#33; Enjoy the weirdness of your Gelas, and if your travels ever bring you to Rochester again, look me up. I&#39;d love to see how the mando works out.

Did I mention that Bernunzio has a "prototype" of the Eastman mandocello (http://bernunzio.com/item.php?sku=0710839)in his store now? Maybe, now that the Jazz Festival is over and the place has cleared out a bit, I may take a spin down there and try it out.

[Jim Garber]

When you said "I have a few earlier ones" were you referring to photos or mandolins?
I have photos of these. I do not own one. They are rare here in the US but more common in France and in Eurpose in general.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Holy smoked eels, a Gelas mandobass (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150133048230) on eBay...
Holy smoked eels, indeed&#33; There must be a glut on the market. How rare can these be with two (count &#39;em) mandolones (mandolini in Italian?) for sale at once.

1933 Gelas Mandolone (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300120543090)

This one has the more std JR label and a much lower starting bid.

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

Holy smoked eels, indeed&#33; There must be a glut on the market. How rare can these be with two (count &#39;em) mandolones (mandolini in Italian?) for sale at once.

1933 Gelas Mandolone (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300120543090)
But this one is a mandocello, surely? It&#39;s 118cm length overall, and eight strings. The mandobass is 150cm long overall, scale 100cm, and four single strings.

Now, if we get a mandola, we&#39;ll have a quartet on Ebay.

Martin

[Lefty&French]

...Well here comes Gelas, not only addressing what on the face of it is a design flaw, but then going even further making the only instrument I know of that the top is not in compression, just the opposite&#33; For the company being around for so long, there doesn&#39;t seem to be that many around. I saw one like mine that was on a mandolin dealer&#39;s website. He called it a double table, and said it was professional grade. Certainly, not all his bowls had that grade, actually just a very few.
"Gelas" was not a company, but a double top patent for whatever string instrument.
brevet = patent
breveté = patented

[mrmando]

And here&#39;s another Gelas mandocello (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220122990841) for sale, this one in Belgium.

So, then, two mandocelli and a mandobass, all on eBay at the same time, in three different European countries. Maybe an EU ban on the sale of Gelas instruments is about to take effect, and these shops have to unload their stock.

[Martin Jonas]

And here&#39;s another Gelas mandocello (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220122990841) for sale, this one in Belgium.
"A great addition to your Gelas collection", indeed.

What&#39;s the grey spot on the soundboard? #Some sort of mutilated pickguard?

Martin

[Jim Garber]

Just another example of how "rare" these are. I have a feeling that they made quite a few of these.

Jim

[brunello97]

"Gelas" was not a company, but a double top patent for whatever string instrument.
brevet = patent
breveté = patented
Lefty,

Can you elaborate on this (the Gelas &#39;patent&#39;, not the French grammar-we&#39;re down with that.) #

Are you saying that "Gelas" was the patented construction system we are seeing and different makers (such as J.R.) used this method?

What other makers used this system that you know of? #Any idea how a maker would obtain the &#39;rights&#39; to use the Gelas system?

I really like the looks of many of the French mandolins I&#39;ve seen.

This is VERY interesting in the face of other threads discussing the &#39;rights&#39; to Gibson designs and attempts by that company to assert them in the face of many small and large builders.

As well as cracking open the hegemony of discussion at the MC around Italian, GreatLakesRim, MidAtlanticRim and PacRim mandolins. #Vive la France, man.

Mick

[brunello97]

And here&#39;s another Gelas mandocello (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220122990841) for sale, this one in Belgium.
"A great addition to your Gelas collection", indeed.

What&#39;s the grey spot on the soundboard? #Some sort of mutilated pickguard?

Martin
I like the tailpiece. #Looks a bit like one from an old archtop guitar. #The profile of the second top always look like water-stains until I put my glasses on.

I&#39;m going to toss a bid on this one later in the week. My niece (who plays cello) is always nagging me to get one of these. (Maybe for the French one I&#39;ll #have enough Monet.)

Mick

PS: Just saw the sellers name. Perhaps explains my tailpiece fascination.

[Martin Jonas]

Are you saying that "Gelas" was the patented construction system we are seeing and different makers (such as J.R.) used this method?

What other makers used this system that you know of?
There were at least six builders: Jean Roviès, René Gérome, Gaudet, Goblet et Fils, Rowies and Louis Patenotte. #Several of these builders definitely also made "conventional" mandolins and guitars. #It&#39;s interesting to note that when the Gélas construction was used, we also seem to get a label specifically referring to the name "Gélas" and the fact that it&#39;s patented. #That points fairly strongly towards the patent being enforced and some sort of commercial license being involved -- if it were just a generic design, then some people may use the name and some not as we see with all those de Meglio clones. #Also interesting to note that at least the JR and some Patenotte instruments have a signature on the label as well as branded on the soundboard, and that signature says "Lucien Gélas", not "Roviès" or "Patenotte". #Again, not something those builders would do for a generic design, I feel.

The big open question, I think, is whether Lucien Gélas ever built his own instruments (and if he did, whether they were mandolins or guitars). #I have a vague recollection of having seen mandolins with only his name on, but of course the "J.R." ones at least feature his name much more prominently than the actual builder&#39;s, so even that may be a red herring. #We can say, however, that the earliest examples built by somebody other than Gélas started appearing very soon after the date of the patent, which would suggest that Lucien hit on the idea of licensing the patent very quickly indeed.

Martin

Edit: Just found a mention of Lucien&#39;s dates (1875-1945) and a description of him being a "mandolin teacher and composer". As we know from Raffaele Calace, that doesn&#39;t mean he wasn&#39;t also a luthier, but at least it suggests his heart was with us, not the guitarists...

[Martin Jonas]

Found on a web search at William Petit (http://www.williampetit.com/mandole-gelas/mandole-gelas.htm): a Gelas bowlback liuto cantabile&#33;

Martin

[Martin Jonas]

Just found some really solid information here (http://www.studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/weissg_doppeldecke.htm) (in German only, unfortunately). #This is the web site of the lutherie department of the University of Zwickau, the department being based in the main Saxon centre for instrument making, Markneukirchen. #

Again, the dates for Gelas are given, but this time he is described as a "guitarist" and teacher and composer for that instrument. #The article implies, but doesn&#39;t quite say explicitly, that at least the early instruments were built by Gelas himself. #Apparently, they were also licensed to Germany, where a luthier with the rather generic name "Schmidt" built them. #Another German builder, Richard Jacob Weissgerber (who built for Segovia) also made Gelas guitars.

More interestingly, this site has some more details on the construction, and some references on whether the design actually worked. #According to this, there was a soundpost-like connection between the two soundboards. #Logically, there would have to be something like this, as otherwise the upper board wouldn&#39;t resonate. #

There&#39;s a 1926 quote from somebody who hated the sound, and a 1989 quote from somebody who liked it. #Somebody (maybe at Zwickau, though that&#39;s not clear) has run some acoustical measurements on the modes and resonances. #In summary it says that the measurements confirm the negative 1926 assessment, and that there was no positive effect on overall volume.

Full detailed measurements are here (http://www.studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/weissg_akustik.htm) -- the Gelas model is the one marked "Doppeldecke" (double soundboard). #Below is the frequency response graph for a Gelas guitar built by Weissgerber. #Here (http://www.studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/WEISSGERBER/audio/4773_0.mp3) is a soundclip of that guitar.

[brunello97]

Amazing stuff, Martin. Thanks for posting this. The burst of popularity for this design seems real enough and fairly intense for a period of time. I&#39;m hoping we hear from someone who is actively playing a Gelas and can shed some more light on the mysterious Lucien and his work.

The website says he was born in Menton, which might explain things. Wasn&#39;t that Jean Cocteau&#39;s hangout? I wonder if any of the Melonious crew have some background information?

Mick

[morgan]

The Gelas arrived last week, and here&#39;s my initial report.

The label says Mandoline Napolitane Gelas, Brevelee SGDG, LG, No. 3183 (last # may be an 8), 1921. J.R. is handwritten in ink over the LG, and below everything there is a Gelas signature in ink.

There is a brace between the two tops north of the soundhole. The brace is perpendicular to the long axis. This seems to be the way vibrations are transmitted to the upper table. Neck and headstock appear to be maple; sides and back are nicely flamed maple. The top and back are bound in a darker golden wood that I can’t identify, and the back also has a black line binding. It’s relatively light in weight, especially considering that it seems to be somewhat large-bodied, but not exceptionally so. You can feel every part, including the neck, vibrating when you play.

The gap where the two tables come together just above the bridge is very thin, maybe 1/16th inch, but there is a definite space there. The space between the tables looks to be about 1.5 inches near the soundhole.

It’s strung with Calace Dogal HR 136 Stainless half-round. These are different from the Calaces I have previously used on my mandolinetto, and they sound great.

It’s quite loud with a unique tone. It initially has a bright punchy sound, but has a long sustain. The sustain is more complex than the initial sound. I’ve played it for several folks who are not mando-focused but who recognized the sound as unusual without prompting, and my wife has commented on how strongly it projects. My youngest daughter said it sounds like a guitar, which it doesn’t, but I understand why she said it. It’s dynamically very responsive; slight changes in pick attack provide a dramatic difference in sound.

When I was in Bernunzio’s I had the salesman play it and the difference in tone was even more noticeable than when playing it myself. I haven’t had a chance to have anyone else play it since it arrived.

The sound may not be for everyone, but I’m very pleased with it. At &#036;900 this is a relatively low-end purchase with what I consider to be a pretty high-end sound. Whether this is typical or I got lucky is anybody’s guess, but if you are interested in these things I’d say its worth trying to track one down.

Although I am as subject to MAS as the rest of us, I don’t really have a desire to have multiple mandolins with similar sound. I have a Rigel A+ deluxe for f-hole sound, a Gibson oval hole, a Howe Orme mandolinetto, and a Spira mandola. I have always loved the big, bright, forward sound of the mandolinetto, but my preliminary impression is that out of the group, the Gelas is most likely to compete with it. The sustain makes it somewhat mandola-like, but the sound is otherwise really not very similar (the Spira is more guitar-sounding).

If anyone’s interested I can record something and send a sound file; just let me know.

[Jim Garber]

The top and back are bound in a darker golden wood that I can’t identify
From the photo it looks like tulipwood, a very common birder wood on some of the Neapolitan mandolins.

Comgratulations on your new acquisition, Morgan. I have never seen one that was playable. I would love to hear what it sounds like.

Jim

[Alex Timmerman]

Hi all,

Thanks Jim for bringing this topic under my attention. It is interesting to see so many &#39;Gelas&#39; patented plectrum instruments here.
There have been made a lot of these instruments. Both flat- and bowl backs of nearly all instruments discussed here. But also terzino mandolins, altomandolins, ukeleles, six-string guitars, guitars with extra bass strings, tenor guitars etc. All with the one and a half sound table design invention by Lucien Gelas.
Lucien Gelas did indeed invent and make his patented &#39;Gelas&#39; instruments. The instruments that carry his autograph as a brand at the left upper corner of the sound table and his signature written in ink at the Gelas label - usually visable through the soundhole - glued at the back inside the sound chamber. Those labels do not have the J.R. (Jean Roviès) capitals. They only carry the written &#39;Gelas&#39; (Brevétée) patent text and his ink signature. I do however not think that his main profession was being a musical instrument maker. The bulk of the instruments are made in the 1920-ties and 30-ties and likely made under Lucien Gelas&#39; licence/supervision by Gaudet and Rowies. Their instruments carry mostly also the &#39;Gelas&#39; ink signature.

Lucien Gelas was a well known guitarist, composer, arranger and music teacher. He himself was a student of Miguel Llobet and a friend of Francisco Tárrega. A friendship that must have been special since Tárrega dedicated his famous composition &#39;Recuerdos de la Alhambra&#39; to Lucien Gelas.



Best,

Alex


PS. Here is a photo that I took some years ago in my class room at the music school of one of my young mandolin pupils holding a Lucien Gelas &#39;Mandolone a quatro corde&#39;.

[Jim Garber]

Thanks, Alex, for clearing up some of my confusion or at least my conjecture.

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

Just a follow-up on this recent thread: I&#39;ve just found out that there is after all a French luthier still making Gelas mandolins today: Claude Patenotte (http://membres.lycos.fr/patenotte/) in Mirecourt (presumably a descendant of Louis). #His web site lists Gelas bowlbacks, flatbacks, mandolas and mandocellos&#33;

Martin