Good cheap littler guitar for old-time

[jus]

Hi all, I have a friend who chomps away on a big drednaught, she started playing someone's great sounding smaller old gibson , possible a L-1? at a jam on the weekend and it sounded just the ticket for old-time.

They are also real expensive , has anybody here got any recommendations for cheap smaller bodied guitars that would sound good in an old-time context?

many thanks,

Justin

[Perry]

I played a Martin 000 composite series that was $799 out the door with pick-up; it sounded pretty good; spruce top, composite back and sides.

I've heard good things about the Larivee parlor but that is more money.

Check out Seagulls. They makes some pretty decent inexpensive guitars. Not sure if they have a small bodied one.

The 000 is a shorter scale length (24.9") similar to a Gibson.

[cbarry]

My Martin 00-15 wasn't exactly cheap, but it's small and sounds and looks pretty old timey to me. It's probably the cheapest all-solid-wood Martin (other than the backpacker).
Chuck

[John Flynn]

Depends on what you mean by cheap. In my area, the standard for old-time is parlor guitars. Gibsons are favored, followed closely by Martins, but as you say, the good ones are really pricey. Some of the new ones are not only pricey, but don't sound that good.

I would look for listings that contain that the term "parlor," look for a reputable builder and all solid woods. BTW, I like mahogany for old time, but that's just me.

I got my Martin 000-15S for about $850 on sale. I have had it upgraded with a great setup, ivory nut and bridge saddle and bone bridge pins. It definitely fills the bill for old time. A friend of mine who is a big OT player has a Larrivee parlor that lists for just over $1,000, but can probably be found cheaper. It is a great guitar. If you really have to save money, some people think the old Harmony, Kay and similar guitars are cool for old-time, especially if they are really beat up, ironically. A few of those instruments actually sound pretty good. I played a great one that a guy got for $50 at a festival.

[Mandorev]

I usually play a Martin at jams and last night I took my 1967 B-25 Gibson and had a ball. It played great for a small bodied guitar. I have found that the Creek Side series of guitars made by Morgan Monroe are really good pac-rim small bodied guitars. They have a great tone for good old time music. MM makes a great regular guitar series as well. I think that they have a small body it that too. Hope this helps.

[Jonathan Peck]

The Kalamazoo KG-14 would be a lesser expensive version of the Gibson L-00.

[Walter Newton]

I think Seagulls are a good value, their "Folk" models are about the size of a classical guitar, with a somewhat wide fingerboard...their sister company Art & Lutherie makes an inexpensive parlor sized guitar called the "Ami".

[ruraltradpunk]

I've seen quite a few of the Larivee parlour guitars going for about $600 second hand.

RTP

[cbarry]

Seagull makes some inexpensive parlor guitars, too (with the unlikely name of "Grand"). Or check out this Blueridge parlor:
http://www.elderly.com/new_instruments/items/BR341.htm
Chuck

[Lemonhead]

I have a alvarez RF20 SM that has a smaller body. It's a pretty good little box for around $300. Has a nice warm tone all mahogany body here is the link on to the spec page on Alvarez site.
http://www.alvarezgtr.com/prod_page.html?SeriesID=5&ItemID=128

[jus]

Thanks for all these helpful suggestions, I've checked out all of them and the Morgan Monroes on-line here
http://www.fretstore.com/SearchResult.aspx?CategoryID=331,

look pretty tempting, one has a slightly shorter scale length, any further words of wisdom?

Many thanks, Justin

[250sc]

Martin 000M. Solid spruce top and laminated back and sides. Around $700.

[fatt-dad]

I'd second the 15 series Martins. The 000-15S (what Johnny said!) is great (I have one too!). That said, the D-15 can be had for less in the used market (I've seen them for $500.00) and they are nice guitars too. My other favorite old-time guitar is my Gibson - cheap, no: little, yes -ha.

f-d

[John Uhrig]

I have a Seagull Grand. The body is small (parlor guitar size) but has 14 frets clear of the body. Plays real nice and has a good sound to boot. You can get one for around $325 to $400 depending where you look. I've had a couple other Seagulls and the La Patrie classicals and they are all good guitars for the money.

[sgarrity]

I owned a Seagull parlor guitar until recently. It was ok but nuthin special. I'm a 000-15S fan. Or an old Gibson fan

[otterly2k]

I have a Larivee parlour guitar-- it's a sweet little guitar, but really lacks bass, imho. There are times when it's just the ticket, but when I play it, I always bump up against its limitations, which is not true when I play my 26 yr. old Martin D-28.

[JD Cowles]

I agree about the Martin 000M: have one, love it. #But if you are on a tighter budget, the mini-Martins are acutally pretty sweet. #If you can play a few in the store you'll likely find a goodun for less than 300 new (with solid top).

[JeffD]

I agree about the Martin 000M: have one, love it. #But if you are on a tighter budget, the mini-Martins are acutally pretty sweet. #If you can play a few in the store you'll likely find a goodun for less than 300 new (with solid top).
I totally agree. I am impressed with the mini-martins.

[DryBones]

mini martins? LXM?

[grassrootphilosopher]

Get your hands on an old Carson Robinson guitar - that is if you can find one.

[tstackho]

A friend of mine just bought a Blueridge guitar for under $500 on ebay. Made in China, has a solid Spruce top and laminate sides. It's loud and has a nice tone.

[Seth Austen]

Martin all mahogany 15, either OM or 000. Vintage Kalamazoo KG-11.


If money is no object, get a funky old Gibson http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif


Seth

[Bramble]

You might also look into the Gibson LG-0 - it was the bottom line, entry level, all mahogany guitar of the late 50's/60's, I believe. #I'm not sure what they go for now, but it's always been an affordable and underrated little guitar.

[allenhopkins]

John Bernunzio (http://bernunzio.com/new_result.php?type=Guitar)here in Rochester has several "parlor" size guitars for sale at reasonable prices; a couple are advertised as "requiring work," but they're by decent makers (Fairbanks, Gibson Kalamazoo, Martin 000-15, etc.), and would probably be worth the fix-up.

[DryBones]

Seagull Parlors don't come in a lefty http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif How about the Baby Taylors? I know they can be had in a lefty, just wondering about the sound.

[doc holiday]

Ditto on the Kalamazoo KG14. I have one from the 35-37 era and it sounds great. Incredibly light, with a very nice mid rangy sound. There are still lots of them out there. Compare favorably with Gibson L00 for far less money. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Michael H Geimer]

The original satin finish Larrivee Parlor is a real deal if you can find one. It's doesn't have the "bling" of their current P-09 model, but it has plenty of tone. I found mine used for only $350.

I also highly recommend the Martin 000-15s.

[12 fret]

Comment on the 000-15s, I have one and it is excellent. Releative to cost, keep in mind the real cost is the difference between what you pay and what you can sell it for at any given time. I can sell my 00015s for more than I paid so my real cost to own is zero, With an import, you'd have to figure on losing 50% or 60% in a best case scenario.

[MandoSquirrel]

Seagull Parlors don't come in a lefty http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif How about the Baby Taylors? I know they can be had in a lefty, just wondering about the sound.
I tried a Baby Taylor in a store years ago, I thought it was probably a good value for the price.

[John Flynn]

If you found a really good deal on a used right hander, it is not really all that expensive to have it converted to a lefty.

[poymando]

Hunt down an old '20s-'30s Stella/Oscar Schmidt/Supertone/Washburn etc ladder braced guitar. Some of those can be had for pretty good prices. Lots of those old recordings were made with catalogue purchased cheapos rather than fine Gibson/Martin instruments.
I have a '30s flat-sawn, all birch Supertone flat top that works really nice for pre war blues string band music.

[DryBones]

If you found a really good deal on a used right hander, it is not really all that expensive to have it converted to a lefty.
If you know my posts you know how I feel about converting righties to lefties! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Nope, won't do that to a perfectly good right hand guitar or mandolin. I also hate to see somebody convert a factory lefty to a righty just to make a few bucks (I've seen it done). http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[John Flynn]

If you know my posts you know how I feel about converting righties to lefties! Nope, won't do that to a perfectly good right hand guitar or mandolin. I also hate to see somebody convert a factory lefty to a righty just to make a few bucks (I've seen it done).
Why? It gives left handers a lot more choices, especially when it comes to used instruments. I am not that familiar with your posts on this. If I found a great deal on a left handed guitar, I would have no problem having it converted it to right handed

[bikebum]

If I was looking for a 'smaller' body size I would consider a 00 body. I had a 60's vintage Gibson B25-N that would need a disk sander to get through the finish since it was so thick. I did like that guitar and a Martin 016-ny. I've gone through many since then and currently have a Martin 0001 that seems to have a better balanced sound.

[DryBones]

Why? It gives left handers a lot more choices, especially when it comes to used instruments. I am not that familiar with your posts on this. If I found a great deal on a left handed guitar, I would have no problem having it converted it to right handed
It's just personal preference really on the right to left converting. With a guitar the bridge would be all wrong and the side markers on the fretboard too. Those items plus the bracing on a mandolin would also be a concern. As far as lefty to righty conversion I hate to see that happen because there are SO MANY right hand instruments available that it seems to be a waste of a hard to find left hand instrument that us few lefties are always looking for.

[John Flynn]

With a guitar the bridge would be all wrong and the side markers on the fretboard too
Well, the bracing on a guitar should not be an issue at all and it would only be an issue on mandolins with tone bars, which is not all of them and even then, it is a problem that can probably be mitigated. Re-orienting the bridge on a mando is easy and not as hard as hard as you think with a guitar. On a guitar, the saddle slot can either be filled and re-cut or a whole new bridge fitted without too much trouble. As for the markers, it would be very simple to put side dots on the other side of the neck. Then you would have dots on both sides, but that's no biggie. The bottom line people having access to instruments they want to play. We are talking a couple hundred dollars in luthiery work standing in the way of increasing the available guitar market for lefties times 10 or 20, at least.

And ally your fears, I am not actually contemplating buying a lefty and having it converted. I was just saying it wouldn't bother me if the shoe were on the other foot...or hand...or whatever.

[allenhopkins]

Some steel string guitar bracing (Martin X-bracing system, e.g.) is not symmetrical, so flipping the guitar over, re-cutting the bridge saddle slot so it slants the opposite way, and putting position markers on the other side of the neck (and don't forget the pickguard) is not necessarily all one would need to do. The bass strings are now on the "treble side" of the assymetrically-braced body, and one might anticipate some difference in sound. Ladder-braced and fan-braced guitars would probably be more symmetrical.

My left-handed son learned to play guitar and bass right-handed, mainly because he had many more instruments from which to choose. My long-time singer-songwriter partner, Bonnie Abrams, does everything left-handed but play the guitar, because her camp counsellor refused to teach her guitar unless she played right-handed like him.

It's a one in a million shot to find a left-handed vintage parlor-sized guitar. If the guitar's ladder-braced, however, a few dollars to a guitar repair-person to reposition the bridge saddle might be the only expense involved in the conversion. Most of those old guitars don't have position markers on the side of the neck anyway.

[DryBones]

awww heck, maybe I should just order a Martin 000-15 in a lefty http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[acousticphd]

Harmony H165.
Old-time pluses:
-Solid Mahogany
-Ladder braced
-000 size
-Still quite a few around
-under $100-$150 if not less
-It'll give you the blues if the neck hasn't been reset
-If the neck has been reset, it will surprise you how much you like it.

The guitar player in Foghorn String band uses one of these.

[cooper4205]

Harmony H165.
Old-time pluses:
-Solid Mahogany
-Ladder braced
-000 size
-Still quite a few around
-under $100-$150 if not less
-It'll give you the blues if the neck hasn't been reset
-If the neck has been reset, it will surprise you how much you like it.

The guitar player in Foghorn String band uses one of these.
I was just about to post that ('cept for the gettin of the blues), I guess great minds think alike http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Tim]

Since this is a mandolin forum, I'm hesitant to ask too much but...

Are there any generalities as to what you give up with the smaller guitars?

[allenhopkins]

Are there any generalities as to what you give up with the smaller guitars?
[1] Volume
[2] Bass response
[3] Bluegrass creds

What you get in return is a more "balanced" sound, less bass-heavy, and one that many people like for old-time music. If you look at the pictures of early rural string bands, it's rare to find a Martin "D" or equivalent-sized guitar. The large-bodied guitars, when introduced in the early 20th century, were designed to be used in mandolin orchestras, where bass response was needed. The large-bodied arch-top guitars, like Maybelle Carter's Gibson L-5, were primarily intended to be jazz instruments.

Many of the early rural musicians just couldn't get expensive instruments, and played average, medium-priced guitars, banjos etc. Most of these guitars were smaller, what we would call "parlor size" now, like the Martin 00 or the Gibson LG series. So that's the sound one generally hears listening to the old bands, and those who want to re-create that sound are drawn to smaller instruments.

A Martin D guitar, or equivalent, is ideally suited for a bluegrass band. An old-time band, with a less aggressive sound, might sound really good with a smaller, good-quality guitar.

[John Flynn]

Allen:

I agree. My old-time instructor always said the fiddle (or whatever the alpha melody instrument is) should never be overpowered by all the other instruments. Hence the continuing preference for the more quiet open back banjos, smaller guitars and oval hole mandos.

I will say, though, that smaller guitars being quieter is only a generalization. I played Collings' version of a 000 in a store last week. That thing was a cannon!

[EdtheSquid]

I bought a Seagull SG Folk with Cedar top three years ago. With the smaller body and wider neck, I really like it for fingerstyle playing. Of all my guitars, the Seagull sits in the living room beside my mando and OM.

[Steve Williams]

Our Larivee parlor guitar sounds great with the A-Jr on old time duets... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Steve Williams
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[12 fret]

I'm not sure you can generalize sound too much anymore. I have 2 triple oh's , a 14 fret and a 12 fret and they are different but both very good. The 12 fret will do about anything a D size will do. I also use a 12 fret D that has exceptional tonal separation like a smaller body but with more power. The feel of smaller bodies is nice especially if you play sitting down. Best advice is pick a body size and then play everything in your price range to make your final selection

[JeffD]

Best advice is pick a body size and then play everything in your price range to make your final selection
That is great advice.

[Jim Yates]

Walter Newton said,"(Seagull's) sister company Art & Lutherie makes an inexpensive parlor sized guitar called the 'Ami'."
I first became aware of this guitar when my son and his wife bought one for their nephew about four or five years ago. It's a great little guitar for under $300 Cdn.
Dan Walsh, who used to play with Fred Eaglesmith's band, sold his Guild and now plays one of these exclusively. He paid more for the pick-up than he did for the guitar. Gurf Morlix, also plays one. Both of these guys have the Ami on their myspace avitar. Two Peterborough musicians, Dennis O'Toole (Bandana) and Cris Cuddy (Max Mouse & The Gorillas) play Amis. Both of these guys have wonderful guitar collections, but just like the Ami.

If you can find one, Suzuki used to make a slot head O or OO size guitar that was reasonably priced and played and sounded great.

[Seafood]

I bought my daughter a Little Martin LMX a few years ago. She moved out about a year ago, man I miss that little axe. Oh the kid too.

[ApK]

$600, $800...you mandolin types sure have a funny idea of "cheap."
I have a small-bodied Rogue from Musician's Friend that can be had on sale for $29...sounds very much like what I imagine that those $2 Sears guitars the Old Time folks got started on sounded like...it's actually an enjoyable little guitar.

Seriously, what does "Old Time" sound like? I can't imagine a guitar that wouldn't fit, less'n it had an amp and a destortion pedal.

ApK

[John Flynn]

ApK;

Cheap is relative for each individual. New production acoustic guitars can go as high as $26,000 for a top of the line Benedetto jazz guitar. Special edition and custom made guitars can go even higher and famous model used guitars, like a pre-war D-45, can get in the hundreds of thousands. So based on that scale, anything under $1,000 could be seen as cheap, but of course if $1,000 is hard to come by for someone, $1,000 would be expensive for them.

You are right, any acoustic guitar can fit in old-time. But the guitars that seem to be preferred my many people in old-time have a clear, projective bass and mids that are not "boomy." Overall, they have what I would call a "drier" tone, meaning not a lot of overtones. The effect is a tone on the "boom chuck" open bass/rhythm chords that can be heard clearly though the other instruments, but is still "sparse" so it does not overpower the fiddle. The 12-fret, smaller bodied, "parlor" guitars are popular for this.

Your $29 guitar should do well in that setting, but I assure you, a Martin 000 or equivalent will do better. It's all in what you want for what you can afford.

[Steve L]

Another vote for the Seagull Grand. I paid about $350 brand new and it's been a really nice guitar...especially for the price.

[mingusb1]

I never thought they would allow this much "guit talk" here on the MANDO cafe...or that I would care to read it! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

But now I too am interested in a guit for oldtime back-up, etc. There is lots of info to digest for a newbie like me. Can someone summarize the differences between these:

Martin 00, 000, 15, 12 versus 14 fret, slot-head.

Also, the (tonal) differences you might expect with all mahogany, mahogany back/sides, rosewood back/sides, or maple.

Whew, that's a lot of stuff!

Thanks in advance,
Z

[fatt-dad]

Can someone summarize the differences between these:

Martin 00, 000, 15, 12 versus 14 fret, slot-head. #
Designations such as 00 and 000 refer to the size of the guitar's sound box. In their standard series, Martin uses the shorter 24.9 in scale length for these guitars. In their 15 and 16 series, they use the more conventional scale length (25.4 IIRC). The standard series uses the conventional dovetail neck joint and the 15/16 series uses the mortise and tenon neck joint along with a hybrid bracing. This fully explained on Martin's web page. Most (all) 14 fret guitars (irrespective of series) have a typical body size. If you get a 12 fret guitar, the body size (whether OO, OOO or D) is 2 frets longer, which adds to the volume of the sound box. This affects the sound, but don't ask me to describe it - not that good with words. . . .

Usually, the slot-heads are used on the 12 fret instruments. I'd say always, but I'm sure there are exceptions.

I love my 000-15s. The 15 series is typically all one wood type. Conventionally, they are mahogany, but more recently Martin has used Sapele for their 15 series guitars. Don't know much about Sapele, but it does have somewhat of a different look (i.e., the striping of the wood is more pronounced). I think that there are some very close similarities between the 15 and 16 series guitars, but the 16 series come with a spruce top and often with a gloss finish. The 15's are matt finish all around.

You can no longer get a 000-16s from Martin, unless you go through their custom shop (i.e., more $$$).

I'm describing the usual production. You will see custom versions of all of these guitars and it'll get confusing if folks tell of their customs (interesting though. . .)

f-d

["left"out]

You might also look into the Gibson LG-0 - it was the bottom line, entry level, all mahogany guitar of the late 50's/60's, I believe. #I'm not sure what they go for now, but it's always been an affordable and underrated little guitar.
about 600 in decent shape. #At least around the OKC area...
That'd probably be my choice.

[Michael H Geimer]

I played a very nice sounding Blueridge guitar over the weekend. I have forgotten the model number, but it's a 00-sized, 12-fret with a 1-3/4" neck width. Spruce top. Mahogany B/S all solid woods.

The store wanted $749, which I thought was a bit high. It sure sounded nice and played nice. I think it was my favorite Blueridge (I'm typically not a big fan of their guitars).

[Dena Haselwander]

I have a Gibson LG1; it wasn't as "purty" as the other new ones I played in the shop, but the size was right and the #sound...absolutely incredible.




Dena

[mingusb1]

Is this an LG0 or LG1?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....=1&rd=1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=009&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=190130748471&rd=1&rd=1)

Z

[sugarinthegourd]

This new Blueridge parlor is surprisingly non-ugly and they reportedly sound good:

http://www.themusicemporium.com/catalog....d=25189 (http://www.themusicemporium.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=1014_91031&products_id=25189)

A friend of mind was very impressed by the new Morgan Monroe "Creekside" guitars -- they do look nice!

John

[Michael H Geimer]

Doh! That's the one I played. Mahogany B/S it is ... I'll go edit/correct my post above.