John zeidler

[Ivan Kelsall]

I've just had a look at a link to Elderly Instruments from the "Mandozine"site & i came across a Mandolin by a maker i hadn't heard of (not too surprising in the UK !)John Zeidler. Elderly have a Zeidler "Carrara" Mandolin for sale for $25,000. That's a lot of cash for a Mandolin,but i have to say that other than the well known Monteleone mandolins,that Zeidler is probably one of the most elegant
instruments i've ever seen,absolute poetry.
I haven't read anything about this maker on the 'Cafe,is he(was he) a well known maker ?. Judging by the apparent excellence of his workmanship,he should have been,
Saska

[evanreilly]

John's mandolins are in very limited supply.
John McGann has at least one, and probably a guitar of his as well.
I had seen a number of them severals years back and they are all excellent instruments. I knew a fellow who had commissioned most of a mandolin quartet, a mandolin, mandola and 'cello, IIRC.

[Dave Cohen]

John was very well known and very well respected in the lutherie community.

[JEStanek]

John died in May of 2002. He didn't make many mandolins (around 30) which may explain the price on a well made instrument. John has commented on how much he loves his 3 point prototype.

Jamie

[Kirk Albrecht]

Exceptional work on the bindings - 5 ply!

[mandolooter]

[QUOTE]Exceptional work on the bindings - 5 ply!

double ditto! if it sounds anything like it looks its a hottie!

[Brian Aldridge]

I spoke a couple times with John, and he was a very nice guy, quite passionate about his craft. I did play one Carrara, and while it was a visual delight, it was pretty tight sonically. This was just one sample, and not the one Elderly has.

[JEStanek]

I felt stymied with no pics so I linked to one that I thought was way cool.

http://elderly.com/images/vintage/90U/90U-4814_fretboard.jpg

Jamie

[Santiago]

That's not a Florida, that a Texas! Beautiful work indeed.

[jmcgann]

You can hear a mid 80's (similar vintage) model that I owned here (http://www.myspace.com/johnmcgann) or also on the Café MP3 page.

I met John Zeidler in 1975, while he was building his first instrument (a 5 string banjo, which is was very good at playing!)
We became best friends and were very close right up to his sad passing from leukemia in 2002. Other than a refinished Harmony mando that John gave me to learn on in 1979 or so, I have only owned four mandos- all Zeidlers. The first, the #3 he built, I played from 1981 or so until 1984. When I won the Winfield mando contest in '84 on a borrowed mando from John (his newest one at the time), he told me to sell the old one and keep the new one! The #3 was bought by Eric Fornasari, a very nice Swiss mando player I met on the road.

After I recorded "Upslide" for Green Linnet in 1994, John Zeidler called me and said "you know, the mando sounds OK, but it's lacking some treble compared to my new ones. Let's do this: give me that one back and I'll give you a new one. Is it OK if I try a few new things?" "YYYYEEEESSSSS...." "I want to enlarge the F holes a little, drop the body shape down a little, and add a third point". "YYYYYEESSSS!!!"

John sold the 2nd mando to the late Tommy Comeaux of Beausoliel, who was tragically killed while riding a bicycle a few years back.

I am currently playing the Three Point Prototype model, and plan to play it forever. I have played some of the world's Most Famous mandolins, and have never really lusted after them- maybe there's no place like home, after having played John's instruments since the '70's.

The 4th mando is an electric 5 string, mini-Les Paul shaped. I also play a 1992 Zeidler excalibur dreadnought, a mid-80's era electric 6 string, and have several more of his instruments as well.

John's craftsmanship and attention to detail is legendary. He was not interested in building "the ultimate Martin or the ultimate F5 copy" at all- he loved and respected what is great about those instruments, but really sought to develop the instrument in a direction he personally believed in, and to develop rather than copy (in sound, feel and design). I feel he acheived this end, as his instruments really do have their own thing going on. As I said, "there's no place like home", and lifelong Martin or F5 players looking to replicate those sounds with John's instruments probably won't. I feel that his instruments really helped me develop my own sound and approach to the styles of music that I play.


John was probably my #1 fan as a player and was always very supportive of my development. He was also one of the world's most interesting people, with a true passion and knowledge of many diverse fields. His understanding of mechanics, and his various passions for music, fly fishing, gun collecting and engraving, cigars, fine art of all kinds made him a really fun person to hang with and to learn from. He was very well known and respected by the lutherie community. I miss him more than you can imagine http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[sunburst]

I was at the ASIA symposium in 1989 with a display set up not far from where John Zeidler was set up. He was a virtual unknown then, and of coarse I was "nobody", but John Monteleone was also there, and had already attained celebrity status as a builder.
John Monteleone was making the rounds, checking out all the instruments on display, and I was eagerly awaiting his visit because I had borrowed my #1 mandolin from it's owner to bring to the show and I was hoping for some advice from the master.
John Zeidler had a black face mandolin and a black face mandocello with him. When John Monteleone got to his display, he stayed there for a long time, playing the instruments and talking, with an obvious look of respect and appreciation on his face. That tipped me off that Zeidler might have something special going on.

John Zeidler was much better known for his archtop guitars than his mandolins later in his career, and he was hugely respected by the top archtop builders in the world because of his eye for design, his craftsmanship, and especially his attitude and open, friendly manor. He died much too young.

[Paul Kotapish]

John's instruments may be the most meticulously made examples of the art I have ever seen. And they sound great, too. His passing was a great loss to all of us. The steep fees associated with his surviving instruments are merited.

[seththedude]

One of the local pickers I know has a Ziedler. I have played it several times and it has it's own sound. It has a nice tone that you can hear through several instruments but it is not too loud when played alone.

I had no idea they were such rare instruments.

[SternART]

jmcgann & sunburst......very nice stories, Zeidler lives on in these memories, as well as the instruments. Sounds like jmcgann lost a really great friend, but you have his spirit in your hands every time you play his instruments, and what a special friend and supporter of your music, trading up the mandolins like that....he was a GREAT friend.....you don't get very many like that in a lifetime!!!.....I've only played one Zeidler out here on the left coast, it was immaculately crafted, but I'm with Brian, it too was a bit tight sonically, I thought about buying it, but passed......maybe it just needed played in for a few years. I look forward to playing jmcgann's some day, so I can hear a well played-in one. Yours sounds great on recordings and videos. Clearly John Zeidler was a great luthier....and a unique & special guy too!

[jmcgann]

Thanks Arthur- you nailed it; John was unique as a human and as a best friend, they don't come any better.

I sure hope to get out to the Symposium sometime and would be happy to have you play my mando.

Every builder, whether they will admit it or not, makes a range of instruments from relatively stellar to the occasional relative dog. 100% consistency is great to shoot for, but we are talkin' alchemy IMHO- an imprecise science not unlike improvisational music-building instruments and playing well both require soul, intuition and fearless insanity http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[sgarrity]

So how about a pic of that 3 pointer John? I've always admired his unique work.

[salleyann]

Quote from "sunburst" ..and I was eagerly awaiting his visit because I had borrowed my #1 mandolin from it's owner to bring to the show and I was hoping for some advice from the master.


You never finished telling us the result of your encounter.
We're waiting for the rest of the story.

[jmcgann]

http://www.johnmcgann.com/Images/Rhythm_Main.jpg

[jmcgann]

http://www.johnmcgann.com/Images/rmando.jpg

[sgarrity]

Very cool mando!!

[sunburst]

Quote from "sunburst" ..and I was eagerly awaiting his visit because I had borrowed my #1 mandolin from it's owner to bring to the show and I was hoping for some advice from the master.


You never finished telling us the result of your encounter.
We're waiting for the rest of the story.
I don't really want to hi-jack this thread, but it's a good enough story to briefly relate.

When John Monteleone came by the "booth" where I was set up, (representing a former employer) he picked up my mandolin and gave it a look over and played it a little. I asked if he could offer any advice to help me improve my sound. He pointed out a couple of things, one about the top arch and one about the neck/fingerboard, gave me two sound pieces of advice about those, played the mandolin some more, put it back down and said "you're on the right track, just keep at it" then walked on.
I was a little disappointed that he hadn't offered me any real insight into achieving great tone, but years later I started to figure out what he meant. He meant that he couldn't tell me how to develop my sound, that I had to figure it out for myself through the experience of building mandolins. I have since passed on that advice to new builders, usually accompanied by that story, and tried to explain to them that in order to learn how to get "the tone" they must keep building and figure out their own way.

[jmcgann]

John Monteleone is another great guy in the mando (and guitar) community. His work is truly outstanding, and if anyone gets the chance to check out his archtop guitars, they are not only amazing to play (which counts the most to me), but the sunbursts are unique and deeply beautiful. He's a visionary IMHO.

[Jim Garber]

I saw Zeidler at prob one of the last guitar shows he did in Long Island. He had one of his mandolins there and I held it in my hands briefly but could hear practically nothing because of the shredders in the hall. Too bad.

I do have an original catalog of his tho. Here is a scan of the Carrara.

Jim

[August Watters]

I had the great fortune of meeting Zeidler through John McGann way back in the 80's, as a student at Berklee (JMc was a recent graduate). JZ was a creative thinker, and while he had a real love and understanding of the classic instruments, he firmly believed the best instruments were yet to be built.

John Z built me an archtop jazz guitar in 1986, and it's still my most prized instrument -- fantastic sustain, resonance and balance in all registers. Kind of like playing a piano. Sounds great for bluegrass, jazz, or anything in between -- it's the kind of instrument that's flexible enough to mold to your own ideas, without forcing you down well-trodden paths through its inherent strengths and weaknesses.

I was especially fortunate to meet John Zeidler before the lutherie world "discovered" him and rightfully drove his prices out of my range.

August W

[8strings]

Once upon a time at Mandolin Brothers .......

[sgarrity]

Very sexy! LOL I remember when I first started playing mando and lusting after one of his instruments. they just had such a distinct, fresh look. I'm surprised no one has copied them yet.

[8strings]

I hope that Stan Jay does not mind me publishing his picture on this site. One of my biggest regrets, regarding musical instruments, is not being able to buy this mandolin. Visiting from overseas at the time, I did not carry enough cash and I also had some other pressing financial commitments. If only I could turn back time, this one would have been mine. A few years later, I purchased one of Michael's superb 'Heiden' mandolins and my happiness was restored. A fantastic builder just the same and a very nice man as well. It has been mentioned on various other threads, but here it is once again: Stan Jay from Mandolin Brothers is one of the nicest people in the business and no visit to New York by any stringed instrument musician would be complete without taking that ferry ride over to Staten Island. I wonder where that mandolin finally went?

[Ivan Kelsall]

As the originator of this thread,may i express my sincere thanks for all the information re.John Zeidler from you guys.I can't remember any mention of him on the 'Cafe before but it's very obvious as to the high regard in which he was held as a Luthier & maybe more importantly,as a person. Just looking at the photos.of the Carrara Mandolin,it was obvious to me that he was probably a very important maker, as indeed he turns out he was.
While having only been playing Mandolin for some 20 months now (i'm a B***o player - but don't tell anyone !),i have always admired the skill & craftsmanship that goes into making such beautiful instruments,in reality,i'm in total awe of anyone who has such incredible talent. One of our top Luthiers in the UK,is Mike Vanden who produces wonderful instruments.I remember seeing one of his Mandolins for sale at a Bluegrass festival over here & it was such a thing of beauty,that i would have bought it just to look at.
Not having heard of John Zeidler before seeing the Mandolin for sale,i can understand the loss of such a craftsman & in some instances,a great & much missed friend,
Many thanks - Saska

[srichards]

Although I have visited Mandolin Cafe daily for years this is the first time I have been motivated to post on the message board due to the Zeidler Carrara that is shown in the picture posted by 8strings.

I had been searching for a Carrara for quite a while and kept in touch with John, just in case he knew of one for sale. On one of the calls he told me he was getting ready to build one for Stan Jay of Mandolin Brothers. John didn't know if it would be for sale or if Stan would keep it personally and that I should give him a call since he didn't intend to build any more mandolins. He also told me the only reason he was building it was his interest in how Stan would describe it (as only Stan can) in the write-up. It may have been the last mandolin he built, I'm not sure. Well anyway I called Stan, he said it would probably be for sale, so I sent a deposit and when it was completed I bought it.

It was the type of mandolin that when you were playing in a jam if was difficult for to hear yourself, however people yards away would remark on how loud it was. On stage it was like a heat seeking missile toward a mic. So I guess John mastered the art of sound projection in mandolins. However, to me the Carrara was more than a mandolin it was truly a "Work of Art", the most beautiful mandolin I have ever held in my hands and I think that will be John Zeidler's legacy.

For 8strings info. I sold the Carrara a few years back to friend who is a collector. I doubt it will ever be for sale.

[jmcgann]

John didn't know if it would be for sale or if Stan would keep it personally and that I should give him a call since he didn't intend to build any more mandolins.

Interesting- John never told me of any intention to stop building mandolins or anything else. Up to his dying day, he was fighting to keep alive for his family- and to continue building. I spoke to him about building me an octave mando a few months before he passed and he was all for the idea.

John was very excited about how his instruments continued to refine through the years- and I know he was looking forward to continuing his work, especially building archtop mandos and guitars.

[srichards]

Mr. McGann, I realize you were a close personal friend of John and I didn't know him personally and only talked to him by phone a few times, so I'm sure what you are saying is correct. John even gave me your name and I talked to you about the Zeidler mandolins before I bought it. You told me it "they play like butter" and it did.

However, what John told me at the time involved the market and amount of work it took to build a mandolin versus the guitars he was building. He told me he could build two guitars in the amount of time it took to build one mandolin. He said given the market enviroment it was more profitable for him to build guitars.

As I said in the earlier post, I wasn't sure if the one at Mandolin Brothers was the last one built or not, because I realize there is a difference in... don't intend to... and never will.

[mandopete]

It appears to me that Zeidler along with people like Monteleone have taken the Lloyd Loar design to new heights. #Then think about what Hans Brentrup is doing with his "Eclipse" and even the Giacommel (sp?). #

We live in wonderful times to be a mandolin player!

[swinginmandolins]

It's stories like these that helped me realize it's good to take a chance on a small builder, as you never know, you may end up with a great instrument just for not following trends. I took a chance on Steve Holst and I'm glad I did, as I ended up with a great mandolin.

I hope someday to get a chance to play a Zeidler.

[jmcgann]

Steve, thanks for sharing your conversation with John- that is a very interesting point about the work that goes into the mando vs. guitar. I know John was getting noticed by the high end archtop jazz guitar community, and he really enjoyed building them, but there as also more of a market for them, ironically, as they sold for a huge chunk of change more than the mandolins!

Personally, I also love what guys like Hans Brentrup and Will Kimble are doing, both in their more "traditional" styles as well as the more "untraditional" approaches. This is very much a golden age for the instrument!

I was really looking forward to 'twins' from John Zeidler- an octave mandolin on an archtop body and a matching 16" archtop guitar. That would have been killer!

[8strings]

Thanks 'srichards' for your update on the whereabouts of the mandolin that I saw, held and played at Mandolin Brothers. There even was a second Zeidler there at the time of my visit, which did not have a pickguard. As you said, amazing instruments with a wonderful (varnish?) finish.

[August Watters]

what John told me at the time involved the market and amount of work it took to build a mandolin

John Z said a similar thing to me in a telephone conversation, close to the end. He espressed his love of building mandolins, but also recognized that market forces made guitar-building more practical. This was after he'd been chosen as one of the builders for the Scott Chinery Blue Guitar collection, which upped his visibility and reputation as one of the best jazz guitar makers. There's an interesting book on the blue guitar collection on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Guitar-Reference-Ken-Vose/dp/0811819124).

If only I'd known that would be the last time we spoke. . . . #

August W

[Charlie Ayers]

Mr. Zeidler had an F5 with him at Healdsburg in 1997, when I went there checking out the archtops. I regret not having bought it (or one of his archtops), though I had been admiring them for some time. He seemed to be a very nice fellow (in addition to being a great builder).

Charlie

[John Eubanks]

I can assure you that John Zeidler never stopped building mandolins. I was on his list for both a mandolin and 18" jazz deluxe when he passed away. I learned much from playing his instruments and from every conversation I had with him. I wish his family all the best and I think about him regularly.

[Grapevine]

[QUOTE=jmcgann;402272]You can hear a mid 80's (similar vintage) model that I owned here (http://www.myspace.com/johnmcgann) or also on the Café MP3 page.

I met John Zeidler in 1975, while he was building his first instrument (a 5 string banjo, which is was very good at playing!)
__________________________________________________ _____________
Hello I'm new to M.C. my name is Rob A and I think I own the banjo John M. spoke of in his post. The date inlay says 1978 John Z. said it was an early prodject.
http://www.farmandhome.biz/jz.jpg