Sitka extinction?

[DeamhanFola]

Hi all,
I just got through a scary article in the June 2007 Guitar Player magazine: apparently unless current harvesting practices are modified, there's a possibility that instrument-quality Sitka spruce from Alaska could be gone within six years.

According to this article, instrument makers are not the primary consumers. 120-150 logs per year are enough to supply all of the luthiers in the USA: the average sawmill can process 120 logs in a single 8-hour shift. 80% of Sitka is used for construction in Asia, the vast majority of the rest used for window and door frames in the USA.

We might soon be lamenting vanishing Sitka as guitarists lament Brazillian rosewood. Tragic.

[bradeinhorn]

i'll do my part by only buying adi http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[mythicfish]

Dale (Ludewig), are you listening?

Curt

[mandroid]

Warmer winters isnt doing the northern forests much good , insect infestation is less supressed.

[sunburst]

The 6 year thing sounds like a "scare tactic" to me, sort of like back when I was a kid and "they" said something like: "If we keep cutting trees at the rate we're cutting them now, there will be no trees by the year XXXX!"
As an impressionable youngster I was terrified! I'd look out the window and imagine some guy with a chain saw cutting down the last tree in the fence row; last tree on earth...

In fact, very few forests are sustainably managed. Good top wood only comes from trees that grew slowly in a dense forest, not from second growth where the forest was heavily logged and the young trees grow fast to compete for the sunlight. Timber harvest is geared toward the lumber industry, and builders and building inspectors don't really care about the lines per inch of the grain in the 2 X 10 lumber holding the floor up. Second growth is fine for them, but on the other hand so is beautiful instrument grade wood.

If current timber harvest practices continue, there is a danger of fine grade instrument spruce becoming as scarce as BRW, but neither tree will become extinct.

And by the way, there is much much more sitka spruce than there is red spruce ("adi"). There is more wood in one sitka spruce tree than there is in a good sized stand of red spruce trees. Red spruce was never a big tree, not like sitka, and never as abundant. Most of the red spruce that is cut becomes lumber or paper.

If I count the lines (years) in one of my red spruce mandolin tops I see that it took the tree almost 100 years to grow the wood in that top. My red spruce tops came from trees that grew on mountain tops in West Virginia for 300 or 400 years and never grew fast the whole time. You can't replace trees like that. you can plant all the trees you want, but without the forest for them top grow in, they'll never be old growth like that. The only way to sustain them is to keep the forests and wait for them to grow (and use the wood with respect).

[JoeD]

... apparently unless current harvesting practices are modified, there's a possibility that instrument-quality Sitka spruce from Alaska could be gone within six years.

Whoo hoo! I'll be able to sell my Blueridge guitar for $100 large. I'm gonna be rich!!

[Paul Hostetter]

It's easy to be flip about this, but the folks leading the charge to slow down the harvest are all the guitar guys: Chris Martin, Bob Taylor, et al. If they're scared, we should be too. We (the pulp industry, mostly) about obliterated red spruce, and what we have are floor sweepings from that former supply. They were, while real stands still stood, quite large trees by the way. Sitka is going the same way (the pulp industry, mostly). The sad part is there are so many other biomass sources for paper fiber that are being ignored because the timber industry is so entrenched and entitled.

Extinct is an inappropriate word here, but the impact of the brainless depletion of the supply is something to acknowledge and try and get active about. I'll hyperbolize a bit by speculating that all the spruce needs of the entire guitar and mandolin and violin world for a decade probably add up to what's needed for a day's edition of the New York Times. Do we really need to squander that spruce on newsprint and paper bags?

[Spruce]

"Do we really need to squander that spruce on newsprint and paper bags? "

I don't think high quality spruce logs are going for pulp these days. The knowledge about it's value has finally sunk in....
But it wouldn't surprise me....

I do know that it used to happen all the time, though.
Especially if a log had a little rot in one section of an 10-foot butt, they'd pulp it.

Or a hollow center. Which I loved to acquire for pulp prices because they were so easy to split out....

Here's a pic of a log I found in a pulp mill back in the late 70's. You can see the rot right over the van's windshield. But the rest of the tree was fine and made a hellova lot of instruments....

They say that only 4% of the original stands of redwood are still intact, so it's only "natural" that it happens to just about every other species as well....

Man never seems to learn...

[Keith Miller]

seem to remember a couple of songs that mentioned the demise of our fair green land
"they put all the trees in a tree museum and charged the people a $1 to see em" and "there behind the glass is a real blade of grass" not new songs either !...guess the song time http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
Keith

[mandroid]

Easter Island comes to mind. stone statues moved on wood rollers.
now the stone is left.

G
"Oh .. I'm a lumberjack,
C E7 Am7
and I'm OK
D D7
sleep all night
G C G
and I work all day.. "

G
I cut down trees
C A-7
I eat my lunch
D D7 G
I go to the lav-a tory
C
On wednes-days I go shopping
A7 D7 G C G
And have but-tered scones for tea



now all together now...


http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[mythicfish]

"I cut down trees, I skip and jump
I love to press wild flow'rs
I put on women's clothing
And hang around in bars"

Curt

[Bernie Daniel]

Paul Hostetter: It's easy to be flip about this, but the folks leading the charge to slow down the harvest are all the guitar guys: Chris Martin, Bob Taylor, et al. If they're scared, we should be too. We (the pulp industry, mostly) about obliterated red spruce, and what we have are floor sweepings from that former supply. They were, while real stands still stood, quite large trees by the way. Sitka is going the same way (the pulp industry, mostly). The sad part is there are so many other biomass sources for paper fiber that are being ignored because the timber industry is so entrenched and entitled.



Paul -- well put.

I am a pretty conservative guy -- #politically -- but I do not find that in conflict with ideal of sensible conservation! #Notice the common root -- conserve (values and the natural world).

The arguements advanced by many to continue the reckless timber harvesting in this country are absurd on their face. #Saving jobs? #Balance of trade? For how long? #What nonesense. #How much of our natural heritage to we give away for another few years of keeping the books in black ink? #So what if the next generation never sees the beauty of nature that we take for granted? -- that is their problem after all.

After the forest are gone all those folks in the timber harvesting industry who are cutting away will be workless anyway -- except for the pulp operations.

I am amazed at the "wisdom" of a country that sells a hundred and fifty year old tree to Asia Inc. for the cost of a hamburger and then watchs as we import finished wood products at a price the puts our own furniture industry out of business. #Gee why isn't American labor competitive?

Brilliant. #Keep chopping I guess -- heck in only about 2000 years those of us who are still alive playing mandolin can again see mature climax forests.

Short term everything.

[Tom C]

I'm a lumber jack song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zey8567bcg&search=Lumber+Jack+Song)

I just can't help it http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[pager]

Sadly, this is no scare tactic. This is very real. I was in the National Park Service for 12 years. 5 years ago they told us there was 10 years of sitka spruce left. Now 5 years later they are telling us 6. This should be the most important topic on the cafe. But it is not. Because, we just don't get the whole depelition thing as a society. I spoke to some of my NPS conservation friends after this article came out. They seconded my fears by telling me this is for real. IF the tide does not change and slow down, IF they keep up the present numbers, we have 6 years of top wood left. Then what do we use? Carbon? Laminate? It's easy to blow this off, but if the current production rates continue, we won't be making guitars and mandolins, ect... tops out of our traditional materials anymore. It won't be there. Well, not for 150 years or so ... it will take that long for the new trees to grow up so they can produce a quarter sawn guitar top. This was a very eye opening article. Check it out.

[Dale Ludewig]

Yes Curt, I'm listening. And on top of the sitka thing, and this is nothing that hasn't been discussed before, but there was a piece on NPR a couple days ago about the pilfering of big leaf. People going around ripping bark off to see if there's instrument quality figure there and then coming back and stealing the tree.

[Bernie Daniel]

Spruce:They say that only 4% of the original stands of redwood are still intact, so it's only "natural" that it happens to just about every other species as well....


Yes that is about right -- exactly right. #It IS equally dismal for most other species -- deciduous and well as conifers. #

Approximately, 9% of the original old growth gallery forests that were here at the start of the Colonial period are still left.

And if it weren't for the goofy-eyed conservationists they could clear that and at the same time create jobs for a few more years. #Because if you've seen one tree you've see'em all.

Not really. #When settlers first came to Ohio we had 200 - 400 year old oak trees that were up to 150 feet tall, with trunks 20-30 ft in cicumference and with the first limbs being more than 50 feet from the ground. #In addition there were comparable sized beech, tulip popular (over 200 feet tall), chestnut, maple, ash and elm. #I don't know about everyone else but I would love to have been able to see and walk through a forest like that. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[sunburst]

There are a few remnant "virgin" forests left in the East, notably the Great Smokey Mountains NP.
Hiking there lets you know what it must have been like.
Notice how the remaining old growth forests are still there only because they were protected by someone?

[Red Englemann]

There are a few remnant "virgin" forests left in the East, notably the Great Smokey Mountains NP.
Hiking there lets you know what it must have been like.
Notice how the remaining old growth forests are still there only because they were protected by someone?n

This is an assent trail to Mt. La Conte. This is a continuous stand of Red Spruce beginning at 4500 feet.
Red

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i168/twelvefret/IMGP0112.jpg

[JoeD]

Great article in today's New York Times on this issue. Somebody must be making a significant PR push to raise awareness.

Tonewoods in Danger (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/07/business/smallbusiness/07sbiz.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&pagewanted=1&adxnnlx=1181228664-Hg4opLIg2AZrJ9ohpHRZkQ)

I saw two suggestions made that make some sense to me: (1) adoption of a method of certifying guitars or luthiers/manufacturers to ensure sustainable harvesting practices are being used; and (2) painful though it may be, price instruments to reflect the scarcity of the resource. However, if the majority of these trees are being shipped oversees for building homes, neither suggestion offers anything like a complete answer.

Depressing.

[Red Englemann]

[QUOTE]I saw two suggestions made that make some sense to me: (1) adoption of a method of certifying guitars or luthiers/manufacturers to ensure sustainable harvesting practices are being used; and

Symbolism over substance. This could be a way of controlling the competition.


(2) painful though it may be, price instruments to reflect the scarcity of the resource.

Only the element of supply and demand will do this. If Martin cuts their current production numbers of 70K guitars per year, that might help.

red

[Spruce]

"i'll do my part by only buying adi http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif #" # # # # #

Actually, Red Spruce is the only conifer I've worked with that can display "tonewood" characteristics (tight grain and no knots) in second growth trees....

Second growth redwood, for instance, is a joke. #It hardly resembles it's old growth brother, with it's wide grain and branches galore almost to the forest floor....
Same with Sitka and Engelmann...

But I've milled Red Spruce (for guitars, no less) that came from mixed conifer/hardwood stands that I was told were completely burned out a couple hundred years ago. #You could see the old burned out stumps that must've been a couple hundred years old....

So-ooo, with that in mind, got a couple hundred acres in Vermont, and looking for an interesting project? #Plant it in pure stands of Picea rubens and see what happens...

I'm pretty sure you could do this with figured maple in any species as well....

I had a conversation with a head honcho at Weyerhaeuser 25 years ago about how I thought it was possible to grow whole hillsides of quilted Bigleaf maple trees, using genetically cloned starts.

If they had done it back then, they'd be sitting real pretty in about 25-50 years....

[atetone]

" had a conversation with a head honcho at Weyerhaeuser 25 years ago about how I thought it was possible to grow whole hillsides of quilted Bigleaf maple trees, using genetically cloned starts.

If they had done it back then, they'd be sitting real pretty in about 25-50 years...."

Yeah,,, unfortunately we are presently living in a world where the corporations can't think beyond their share price in the next quarter.
Shareholders are looking for instant gratification,,, long term thinking is out the window.

[sunburst]

One of the few things I remember from economics class in college is this quote:
"Everything you do is for the short run. In the long run we're all dead."
Seems to be the thinking behind timber harvesting.

[Paul Hostetter]

I saw two suggestions made that make some sense to me: (1) adoption of a method of certifying guitars or luthiers/manufacturers to ensure sustainable harvesting practices are being used; and

Symbolism over substance. This could be a way of controlling the competition.
I doubt it. The certification process has been in place for years and many people such as Gibson and Martin are adhering to it. SmartWood is an effort of the Rainforest Alliance, started in 1987. Old news, and definitely not a subterfuge for controlling either competition or "the competition."


(2) painful though it may be, price instruments to reflect the scarcity of the resource.

If Martin cuts their current production numbers of 70K guitars per year, that might help.
Martin is extremely small change compared to giants like Samick, which makes in a month what everyone else on the planet does in a year collectively. Martin has been doing the heavy lifting for everyone in terms of finding alternative woods and materials (they make lots of guitars that have no wood in them, and they’re not bad either), using SmartWoods since the term was invented, cultivating markets for instruments that were unthinkable years ago. If you want to pick on someone, I think you chose the wrong one to pick on, and I fear you’re imagining substance to support some rather questionable symbolism of your own.

In his journals, Henry David Thoreau lamented that the woods around Walden Pond were scrawny second and third growth, and that the original forest was a goner. In 1850, in Massachusetts.

[Red Englemann]

If you want to pick on someone, I think you chose the wrong one to pick on, and I fear you’re imagining substance to support some rather questionable symbolism of your own.


Martin does not need you to defend them, Paul, so relax. We can agree to see things from differant perspectives.

red

[Paul Hostetter]

I'm relaxed, and I'm not trying to defend Martin so much as trying to point you to some facts. What "differant" [sic] perspectives are there to agree about?

http://www.lutherie.net/georg.engelmann.jpg

[atetone]

Now that's just nasty.

[Red Englemann]

[QUOTE]I'm relaxed, and I'm not trying to defend Martin so much as trying to point you to some facts. What "differant" [sic] #perspectives are there to agree about?
[QUOTE]

What facts do you think you put forward that made a point? I saw nothing.You may have mistakenly thought you said more than you did. I am confused about the picture. Are you trying to be funny or the smartest person in the room? I don't have much patience for the later, but I do enjoy humor.

Corporations form strategic alliances #that benefit their business plans and contribute to their success. Martin or any company is not going to do something that will do harm to their strategies. Being a good corporated citizen is fine as long as it is supportive of the business goals.

I think I remember that you are an independant luthier. IF you, John , or Lynn had formed an alliance, I would not be thinking about any symbolic gestures. However, if I were the head of a privately held company and entertaining ideas of an IPO, then I might be making some moves that would set well with investors.

Again, you have had your say and now you have heard my perspective. That's about all I have to say and I am not interested in letting this escalate into something ugly.

Red

[Paul Hostetter]

All I can suggest is to read it again. I thought my points were clear.

You declared that adoption of a method of certifying guitars or luthiers/manufacturers to ensure sustainable harvesting practices are being used was “Symbolism over substance. This could be a way of controlling the competition.” I said that process was already in place (IOW, way beyond symbolism) and it was working well. And that Martin (and most other major manufacturers of acoustic instruments in the US) was using it. And that outfits many orders of magnitude larger than them (Samick, for example) weren’t. Sorry to disagree with you, but I thought your point was not a good one.

And to JoeD’s second proposal about pricing instruments to reflect the scarcity of the resource, you said “If Martin cuts their current production numbers of 70K guitars per year, that might help.”

Given their market share and their ethics record, not to mention the fact that they make a lot of guitars out of other materials than normal wood, it wouldn’t help at all, and you seemed to completely ignore those facts too. When you’re a drop in the bucket, perhaps it’s appropriate to look elsewhere for the real problem, because it obviously exists.

Do you have a chip on your shoulder about Martin buying up all the red spruce? I know some folks do, but how many guitars a year are they making out of that? The conversation began with what’s going on with Sitka spruce.

Sorry you just want to slam the door, but I think if you make broad dismissals as you've done, you should stand behind them.

[harwilli55]

Maybe of interest to you is Jared Diamond " Collapse - How Societies Choose to Fail Or Suceed" (http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2005/01/03/050103crbo_books)

Interesting treatise of past cultures and why they collapsed as a way of defining our future. One consistent factor seemed common to the many examples he uses, is the over-utilization of the availiable resources. The resource most often leading to collapse was deforestation which lead to a multitude of problems.

Speaking of Old Growth Stands on the East Coast, I have walked in the stand at the bottom of Brown Mtn(Lynchburg Dam) in Virgina and the beautiful Black Water Falls in Davis WV, as well as one or two stands in NC, but memory does not tell me exactly where they were. I always felt as if I were in a cathedral, humbled and small, and thankful they still exist even if only in tiny plots.

Harlan

[JEStanek]

If my memory serves the Asheville area near Linville gorge/falls and Grandfather mountain have some old growth stands of hemlock in NC. Edit: You're right about the feeling under those trees. Cathedrals do an approximate job in replicating that majesty.

Jamie

[Red Englemann]

"Do you have a chip on your shoulder about Martin buying up all the red spruce? I know some folks do, but how many guitars a year are they making out of that? The conversation began with what’s going on with Sitka spruce."


Here is a quote from the NY Times article:

"As small, privately held companies, these instrument makers have banded together to join the burgeoning corporate social responsibility movement, not just to appear politically correct but to ensure their long-term survival.

“If I use up all the good wood, I’m out of business,” Mr. Martin said. “I have a 2-year-old daughter, Claire Frances Martin, and she can be the seventh generation C. F. Martin. I want her to be able to get materials she’ll need, just as my ancestors and I have over the past 174 years.”

The motivation, Paul, appears to be corporate survival and not a direct concern for Sitka spruce or other tone woods. Perhaps this explains my position. Greenpeace has their own agenda of course. Together they can help each other meet their respective agenda.

red

[Peter Hackman]

I think I remember that you are an independant luthier. IF you, John , or Lynn had formed an alliance, I would not be thinking about any symbolic jestures. However, if I were the head of a privately held company and entertaining ideas of an IPO, then I might be making some moves that would set well with investors.
jesture = a gesture meant as a joke?

[james condino]

Sitka and most of the other species that instrument builders use will never truly be "extinct" from the perspective of the individual luthier's point of view. It takes a VERY prolific builder several lifetimes to use all of the material in a single good tree. It also takes only an hour or two to replant several acres.

If all of your future instrument purchases came from small scale builders who knowingly harvested and obtained their materials in a sustainable and responsible manner, there won't be any issues.

I have never had any problems finding single logs in the forest and felling them for my own use, regardless of the species or the country where I have to extract the log. Finding 50 acres per day to make the paper bags for one days worth of your favorite McBurger joint's excess packaging, supporting politicians that sell all of our forests to overseas pulp factories and having huge cnc driven guitar factories that produce tens of thousands of instruments per year DOES have an impact.

Yesterday a very nice fellow who runs an incredible timber supply business showed me some beautiful old growth western red cedar that he recently acquired: 40+ lines per inch, no runout, beautiful color, perfect quarter. We both knew where it came from- it was obvious. He asked how I liked it as a luthier. My response was easy. I told him that I had built several dozen guitars using it with nice results, but I had one absolute favorite use for old growth western red cedar trees. They are my favorite place to take a nap under in the forest during a warm sunny day....

james condino
www.condino.com

[Paul Hostetter]

Beautiful.

http://www2.hellobc.com/travelmedia/images/imagebank/regular/Western%20Red%20Cedar%20-%20Stanley%20Park.jpg

[Red Englemann]

If all of your future instrument purchases came from small scale builders who knowingly harvested and obtained their materials in a sustainable and responsible manner, there won't be any issues.

Are you saying that the issues are coming from large scale builders? There is the element of self preservation in the NYT's article.

The certification processes suggested by Greenpeace, what real impact would these have?

red

[Chris Baird]

Fortunately, when resources become scarce the requirements of economics and conscientious conservativism can both be fulfilled by the same practices.

It wouldn't be valid to assume that a publicly traded company only marches to the tune of the bottom line. Many companies have the discretion to employ tactics which fulfill the company's moral agenda. In some industries the competition is so extreme that there is no room for anything but the bottom line. However, in many industries I think you will find companies making decisions based on moral principles which are not directly tied to profit margins. As I've said, a company's capacity to do so is restricted by the competitiveness of the market. #In some markets consumers (and consequently stock holders) require a certain moral practice.

[Red Englemann]

In some markets consumers (and consequently stock holders) require a certain moral practice.

Yes, Chris the requirement or at least the expectation is there for any company. I enjoy reading financal reports from publically traded companies like Steinway and their commitment to corporate citizenship. However, no company will ever knowingly do anything that will damage the overal stategy.

Harley-Davidson slowed production to restrict supply and keep prices high. As a result their stock was devalued. Since Martin is not a publically traded company, they do not have to be concerned about this happening publically.

red

[jasona]

The certification processes suggested by Greenpeace, what real impact would these have?
A similar campaign helped to raise awareness of the slaughter of dolphins as tuna by-catch, now try and buy a can that isn't "tuna safe". Its an effort to affect corporate practice by getting the consumer herself to demand the change. Sometimes it works well indeed.

[james condino]

Spruce Bruce:

Glad to see the pictures of that huge log next to your new van. I can see why you've been working so hard to save up money for her- quite a lady magnet. Just load that nice log up on her roof rack and I'll pick it up when I visit Orcas next month....

james condino
www.condino.com

[B. T. Walker]

Christian Martin was on Marketplace this morning talking about trees and CITES. Read the transcript here (http://marketplace.publicradio.org/shows/2007/06/11/AM200706116.html). It's not very long.

[otterly2k]

Cathedrals do an approximate job in replicating that majesty.

This is not by accident. The tall vaulted spaces, trunk-like columns, leafy rosette window shapes and dappled light were intended to invoke the majesty of forests, as cathedrals were built to capture the devotions of those who had once worshipped forests and in forests.

[sunburst]

Karen, I don't want to hijack the thread, but can you site any sources on that info? It's the type of thing I think about a lot, the replication/representation of the natural in design work, and I didn't get any info about any intentions to represent forests with cathedral design when I briefly studied those things in college.
Please PM me any info, thanks.

[Jim Nollman]

There's probably some parallels to be found between current wood-harvesting politics, and the debated success of the tuna-safe campaign. I participated in that campaign full time for a while, and i recall the arguments of #major food companies refusing to comply. #When a few of the companies saw their sales plummet without the dolphin-safe sticker. Rather than comply, they actually designed their own little sticker which implied no dolphins were being killed, but in fact had nothing to do with the established campaign, (or protecting dolphins). But it made them look like they were in compliance.

all to say, that I think we should all be praising Martin (and almost all the small builders) for first, being aware of the issue, second promoting it, third, using eco-sense in their own purchases, and fourth, doing something positive to insure future trees, in a business climate where cynicism too often trumps ethics.

To my mind, it's disingenuous that anyone here actually thinks this complaint against Martin is accurate. That they aren't doing this for the ethics of it, but only to assure a longterm supply which impacts the company if the trees go extinct? Or is it this argument: that Martin and the small builders aren't doing enough because they aren't big enough to do enough? Yikes! As someone who has been working on ecological strategies for many years, #if we treehuggers or planet lovers (or fill in your own appreciative/pejorative term) could get EXXON or Monsanto or the US Govt to act like Martin, i think we'd all retire with a glass of expensive champagne, and leave the heavy lifting to the next generation.

[Sitka]

Boy, the topic title scared me until I started reading into it. What a load off of my shoulders... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Micah

[JEStanek]

Micah. I don't want to come across as a doomsayer, but, I hear your days are numbered. No one makes it out alive... Time to consider the F1 Generation...

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Jamie

[Red Englemann]

Chris Martin quoted in NY Times article said:


“If I use up all the good wood, I’m out of business,” Mr. Martin said. “I have a 2-year-old daughter, Claire Frances Martin, and she can be the seventh generation C. F. Martin. I want her to be able to get materials she’ll need, just as my ancestors and I have over the past 174 years

Beluga said:


To my mind, it's disingenuous that anyone here actually thinks this complaint against Martin is accurate. That they aren't doing this for the ethics of it, but only to assure a longterm supply which impacts the company if the trees go extinct?

Did you read the article, Jim? I appears plain to me of what is the motivating factor.

red


red

[Paul Hostetter]

Any kind of conservation is motivated by self-preservation. You seem to have such an overriding suspicion of their motives that you can't see any possible positive result.

[Jim Nollman]

Red,

i guess I didn't make myself clear. I was trying to say that anyone who doesn''t approve of a conservation ethic that is tied to an economic perogative — conserving today's trees for the economy of our grandchildren — has his purist head stuck in the sand. Let's all applaud Martin for providing an economic model for tree users that necessitates a preservation strategy. The bottom line is conservation.

[Nolan]

As an impressionable youngster I was terrified! I'd look out the window and imagine some guy with a chain saw cutting down the last tree in the fence row; last tree on earth...
John, you crack me up!

I remember a TV commercial when I was a kid... it was a grandpa and his grandson walking around on what we were led to believe was the moon. #Then, the grandpa broke it to his grandson that they had cut down the last trees on earth and he was sorry. #Then they walked back home holding hands in their space suites! #Man, I really thought I would need a space suites when I grew up cause all the trees would be gone! #

So... anyone played any of those new carbon fiber mandolins?

[Red Englemann]

i guess I didn't make myself clear. I was trying to say that anyone who doesn''t approve of a conservation ethic that is tied to an economic perogative — conserving today's trees for the economy of our grandchildren — has his purist head stuck in the sand. Let's all applaud Martin for providing an economic model for tree users that necessitates a preservation strategy. The bottom line is conservation.


Thank you for clarifying your post, Beluga

I agree that we all, corporately or individually, must act responsibly. However, when we speak of preservation, it is also necessary to ask preserved for what and for whom. For me, it is difficult to get past what Mr. Martin said in the article. If it were my company, I would be doing the same thing.

Regards to you as well

red

[B. T. Walker]

I got a carbon fiber mando, #and it is sweet. #Carbon-based without the wood. #What do all the resins do to to and with the environment? #Is it a net gain for the Earth? #Doubtful.

I still like it. #See my sig line.

Brian

[Salty Dog]

I find it interesting that in all of this contentious rhetoric about big/little, corporate/private, save/destroy that not one word was mentioned about something I saw on one of the "discovery type" channels the other day that mentioned a particular beetle that was destroying the Alaska Sitka Spruce trees.

[Red Englemann]

I find it interesting that in all of this contentious rhetoric about big/little, corporate/private, save/destroy that not one word was mentioned about something I saw on one of the "discovery type" channels the other day that mentioned a particular beetle that was destroying the Alaska Sitka Spruce trees.

Here is a link to an article from the forestry service. Do groups like Greenpeace deal with beetle infestation or other natural events? Would it be proper for corporations to put as much effort into beetle control as it would in the certification of forest practices? If this is indeed an issue, we can watch and see what efforts the interested parties take.

http://www.fs.fed.us/r10/spf/fhp/sefhp/sebeetle.htm

red

[sunburst]

Insects and diseases are causing more damage to trees (and other living things) as the temperature rises. This seems especially true of northern species. Frasier fir, eastern hemlock, red spruce, sugar maple, etc..
And we needn't go into the fact that where I am right now, the forest was dominated by chestnut not so long ago.

[PhilGE]

You'll probably need to register (free) to read this June 7 article in the New York Times about this precise subject:

Saving Trees is Music to Guitar Makers' Ears (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/07/business/smallbusiness/07sbiz.html?_r=1&oref=slogin)

[thistle3585]

Here's a neat read. It seems a little more optimistic than what I've read in any of the other articles posted. Alaska Forest Facts (http://www.akforest.org/facts.htm)

[sunburst]

Well, yes, it does seem a lot more optimistic, but it's written from an entirely different perspective. I only skimmed, so far, haven't read the whole thing, but it seems like I see a certain amount of "can't see the forest for the boards" going on there, and it has little to do with sitka.

[PhilGE]

The AFA is an industry specific interest group. Read their mission statement (emphasis below is mine).


The Alaska Forest Association can be characterized as a high profile industry trade association. Its members hold in common general business interests in the timber industry of Alaska. AFA's activities are directly related to the viability of the forest products industry in Alaska.

The AFA Mission Statement commits the resources of the Association to advancing the restoration, promotion and maintenance of a healthy, viable forest products industry, contributing to economic and ecological health in Alaska's forests and communities. This commitment includes the following elements:

AFA will provide secure, reliable, cost effective group health insurance, pension benefits and other services of value to its members.
AFA management will strive to satisfy all legitimate member and constituent needs.
AFA will be a productive and positive place of employment.
AFA will strive to maintain an authoritative and professional public image.
AFA will strive to provide accurate information and education concerning forest uses and forestry issues to AFA members, the public and the media.
AFA will work to maximize public and private timber supply throughout the state and enhance private property rights.

[Jim Nollman]

Last week I flew from Vancouver airport to Ucluelet on the west coast of Vancouver Island. Even from 10,000 feet over the island, I rarely saw ANY area that hadn't been clearcut, and then only the steep slopes. I'm talking hundreds, maybe thousands of square miles of what until recently had been one of the world's largest contiguous sitka spruce forests. I had always thought of that area as still wild. In the newspapers, you mostly read about that area because there are so many mountaion lion attacks. Now I can see why. The entire habitat is gone. Sure, I knew logging occurred there, but hadn't any idea of the scale or the revenousness of the operation.

That's wood and paper for all our use. So did you and i do it? That's one good question.

[Paul Hostetter]

Groups "like Greenpeace" do indeed deal with beetle infestation or other natural events. I'm surprised it even has to be pointed out. An example was when my local (then)State Representative, a leading California Republican, enlisted some of us local treehuggers to endorse a bill he was running through Sacramento to fund research into a epidemic die-off of large trees about 15 years ago. Why us? Because the timber industry, a major factor of his financial base, was scared to death the disease (or whatever it was) would jump from oaks (not important) to redwoods and firs (very important) and he wanted all the support he could get. The problem was real, so we signed on. They eventually did figure out what the organism was, named it Sudden Oak Death Syndrome, and then Sudden Tree Death Syndrome when it did jump species. Fortunately it didn't jump to Republican cash crop trees (yet) and the effort was worthwhile all around. Some kind of bipartisanism there, I guess. Wish someone had gotten onto similar efforts for the chestnuts and the elms. Wish they'd do it for Port Orford cedar.

You don't have to be a great statistician to realize the comparative effects, over the last 150 years for example, of the timber industry versus "natural" events, even if they're exacerbated by phenomena like global warming. Even the local native Americans, before European contact, routinely burned the forests down like clockwork, keeping a good part of the state in open meadow condition. But let's get real for a moment: over millennia they could not begin to approach what the timber operators have managed in just a few decades.

Would it be proper for corporations to put as much effort into beetle control as it would in the certification of forest practices? If this is indeed an issue, we can watch and see what efforts the interested parties take.

[sunburst]

It can be "interesting", the different perspectives different interest groups can have on an issue.
I was once actually moved to call in to a "call-in" local radio show once; something I'm really not the type to do, normally. On the air were people from the Forest Service, and a guy who had researched an written an article on the affects of air pollution and acid rain on Eastern forests.
His position was that the effects of acid rain were causing damage to "junk" (my word, not his) species like red pine and red spruce, and that something needed to be done before the effects started causing damage to "important" species like oak and other commercially valuable hard woods. He said that although it couldn't be "proven with a capital P" that acid rain was the culprit, there was enough evidence that action should be taken.

The FS position was that there was no evidence that pollution and acid rain were damaging "important" tree species, and that nothing needed to be done.

My perspective, obviously was different than either, and having done field work with with Dr's Stevenson and Adams on many of their studies of red spruce and red pine decline back in my "biologist' days, I had seen the evidence.

So anyway, I called to remind them that some of us actually do value red spruce trees, and not just for wood pulp. Interestingly the FS representatives then said; "Well, yes, it is proven that acid rain is damaging red spruce."

[Paul Hostetter]

A brief fly-over of Vancouver Island just with Google Earth is extremely disturbing. When you zoom in close you can see it's basically all gone.

http://www.lutherie.net/vancouver.bald.jpg

[Jim Nollman]

The mention of carbon fiber mandolins as some kind of ecological "solution" for those of us who currently desire mandolins with spruce tops, makes me wonder if carbon fiber is a product of mideast oil.

[JEStanek]

Wiki on carbon fiber. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_fiber) Starts as polyacrylonitrile. I'm not enough of a chemist to know if this is a petroleum biproduct or not...

Jamie

[thistle3585]

I would assume that the resins and lacquers involved aren't to VOC friendly.

[jasona]

Shellac and alcohol are fairly mild. Most of the rest can be pretty bad.

[erstokke]

Here in the Nordic countries, we have to a large extent certified sustainable forestry. There is now more trees in Norway than 100 years ago.

And prices for wood is so low that in many areas it is not worthwhile cutting the trees down. So I guess we can supply the rest of the world with spruce for musical instruments. Not sitka spruce, though, but still good for instruments.

I guess ebony, mahogany and rosewood is a bigger problem.

[Jim Nollman]

I spend time in Japan every so often. Last time I was there I did a show about 2 hours north of Tokyo, and we drove for several miles through a forest of trees all of them about 30 feet tall. My host informed me that Japan is now busy replanting many of its old forests. When I said I thought this was terrific news, my host frowned to tell me it was also causing some terrible problems. Over the past ten years, lots more people are suddenly getting full blown pollen allergies in the spring, even in downtown Tokyo when the wind blows in the wrong direction.

[Dave Cohen]

Acrylonitrile is synthesized, like most organic monomers, from compounds coming from one stage or another of petroleum distillation. I took organic chem from the late James Cason at UC Berkeley, many decades ago. One of his favorite ways to atart synthesis problems on axams and quizzes was "Starting from (compounds in) coal tar, synthesize....." Since I related that to my in-laws, the favorite joke at dessert time is "Please pass the coal tar", referring to stuff like Dream Whip, etc.

[sunburst]

My organic chemistry prof said, speaking of petroleum; "I always thought there are too many useful things to do with this stuff to burn it!"

[JEStanek]

O. Chem is a painful memory and secret shame. I was too "busy" taking photos and writing for the newspaper and yearbook. If you want to talk about gene regulation, or bacteriophages I'm on it. Jan Erik, glad to hear of reforestation.

I missed arbor day this year... I'll have to plant a tree or two this fall. That's one of the most depressing things about my development (great schools, convenient location) the lack of trees. At least all the streets aren't named after them (we have a Juniper Drive). I miss the birdsongs and insect noises at night from them too. Morning and evening vespers to my ears.

Jamie

[Jim Nollman]

I have the opposite problem, Jamie. I live on some acreage. After some fearsome winter storms puilled down lots of big tree branches, devastating my orchard fencing, i decided to let one area of ten apple trees go back to nature. I've been feeling for some time that I can't keep up with all the sprouting alders and willows there, and don't have the time to put up a new fence to curtail the deer.

I kind of like it that the forest has won.

[cutbait2]

i think, that in the Smoky NP the only thing that protected the trees was accessibility. ie most of the old trees are high up. the park has only been around a short while compared to logging in the area.

[sunburst]

There are cable yarders and helicopters now. If the Smokies weren't protected now, those trees would be outa there.
It was inaccessibility that let them survive until the thought of maybe saving a few parcels of natural forest started to seep into some peoples minds, and park status that has done it since.

It was a lot easier to cut the timber that was more accessible, so as long at those easy trees were still around, the high elevations were pretty safe from logging. The easy timber was running out, though.

[911guitars]

Sitka extinction? This histeria is unfounded. Not even close. The biggest and best Sitka Spruce is right here at my doorstep in Southeast Alaska. With the restrictions on US harvesting, we will never... never... cut thruoght our Sitka Spruce oldgrowth. The same would have been true with Brazilian Rosewood IF it was subject to USA regulations.

[Jim Nollman]

Granted, southeast Alaska is immense as is the size of the intact forest. But there have been many published reports over the past 5 years raising an alarm about rampant and unregulated clear cut logging in southeast Alaska National forests. I've seen a small bit of it myself in flyovers around Petersburg and Ketchikan.

Granted, a lot of Alaska timber is currently so hard to get to, that the faraway valleys will remain intact for a very long time. But you won't see any tonewood logs showing up from thoses stocks unless some enterprising instrument logger goes out there with his personal helicopter. The bottom line is that under Bush, the US forest service is not doing a very good job for anyone or anything but the logging companies.

[mandoalaska]

Even though Sealaska is running out of wood there should be plenty of music wood available through USFS small sale programs even at current harvest levels of 45-50mmbf/year. The USFS is currently doing a Forest Plan revision and would like to significantly increase this harvest level. The link below is to an Ecotrust map which shows the big picture (private lands are mostly large blocks of fuscia colored).

http://www.inforain.org/maparchive/tongass.pdf

[gypsy1]

A photo on imported spruce to be made into window and door jams. Dunhua, China 1999. There where over 25,000 workers at this facility dedicated to wood processing. I have several other photos which I can look ofr, scan and post if anyone would like to see them. I was difficult getting the few I did, someone was with me every waking hour and I wasn't given a room key to come and go as I pleased...

[gypsy1]

here's the photo I hope

[Jim Nollman]

As an aside, i saw Paul McCartney playing a mandolin in an itunes ad during the NBA finals. Gypsy, that mandolin looked like it could have been made by you. Is it?

[Paul Hostetter]

I recommend people look for the latest (July 2007) issue of National Geographic, which has a large article starting on page 102 on the state of Alaska's forests. If you would rather not be disturbed by facts, maybe it'd be better to skip it. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[gypsy1]

It was mentioned earlier in this thread that Brazilian Rosewood would still be around if the U.S Forestry Regulations where applied there. Perhaps this is true, but the biggest culprit in the South American rainforest is the agriculture methods of 'slash & burn' to clear for crops. With the heavy rains the soil quickly is depleted of nutrients and the farmers just cut deeper. Similar to clear cutting in our NW rainforest and exposing it to erosion and such.
Regarding our forest I wouldn't take it so lightly as to say it will never happen. I tend to agree most of what's left is difficult to harvest, the easy stuff is basically gone. We do need to be aware of our exports and the effects of this massive consumption of a natural resource. Our Chinese friends virtually import ALL of the lumber used in manufacturing wood products. They stripped away all of their forests many years ago and are now in the midst of reforestation. It is illegal to harvest or cut existing timber there.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned in this thread regarding musical instruments are the amount of orchestra instruments, (the violin family), it is huge. Of course the sales ploy is 'solid spruce top’ and a lot of them are. You can buy these throw away instruments for as little $100 with case and bow. Prices do vary though, up to $850-900 or so. The wholesale prices on these are mind boggling cheap, and this applies to ALL the stringed instruments. In fact if you have 5-10 grand you can purchase a container, (or split one with someone) from China as well.
The working conditions are not good and 'hand labor' is used to keep the masses busy in many cases. So 'hand carved', OK, quality crafted?? Yes some good products are coming out of there, but everything has its price.

In a previous post I placed a photo of just one of the warehouses, in remote China, dedicated to window and door jams, to give you an idea of how big this storage facility is you can see a person standing beside a truck at the end of the building on the right side of the photo. The warehouse continued around the corner and was easily 3X the size of what I could photograph.

Attached are a couple more photos, one of several women who where in the workforce at this facility. The conditions in this plant where less then desirable. Not all of them are this way, advancements have been made but this is the norm for most of the Pac-rim stuff.

Walt

[gypsy1]

Ladies of China

[gypsy1]

One of the plant entrances

[Paul Hostetter]

Walt, Dalbergia nigra doesn't grow in the rainforest that's being subjected to slash and burn ag. I agree it's a bad scene down there, but it has no connection whatsoever (and never did) with rosewood, which grows on the Atlantic-facing slope of the mountains that separate the rainforest interior of Brazil from the coast. Other valuable trees are under pressure because of that horrendous type of ag expansion, but the most threated thing is humanity which depends on that reservoir of plant life for a major portion of the carbon dioxide and oxygen production.

Historically (meaning at the time of European contact) Brazilian rosewood grew in the scrubby coastal forest, which looks a lot like the coast ranges in California and southern Oregon, in a very sparse grid of one tree or a small cluster on a grid of about 20 miles. It never formed forests or even groves. The rush to harvest it started in the 1500s, so it's understandable there's none left outside parks and arboretums. And warehouses in Spain. The Brazilian government tried to shut down the logging in the mid-1960's, but by then it was way too late. That's why and when Martin switched to Indian rosewood.

The amount of wood being poured into manufacture of violins is infinitesimal compared to the amount going into construction timber and paper pulp. I know it's fashionable to diss "Pac Rim" products, but if it enables music, I'll cut it some slack. By far the biggest selling musical instrument on earth is guitars, by a great margin. Maybe best to get better facts and leave the lutherie world alone and look for the real culprits. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[gypsy1]

Paul, I've been there too http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif A positive is the amount of plantaion Ebony that I witnessed both on the Atlantic and Pacific foothills of the Andes.
Regarding orchestra instruments, no doubt guitars are the leader, but the other entry instruments that are being produced are big numbers.
I couldn't agree with you more about the construction and pulp industry, as the photos show just one door and jam facility. The luthrie world is less then a speck of dust compared to that.
As far as supporting kids learning to play, that's great, I do too.
Walt

[Jim Nollman]

I spent a month last summer in a remote part of the Amazon cloud forest in Bolivia, recording birds. It was a huge national park, although with almost no facilities or rangers. Our guide showed us some huge trees he called moreno, which was similar to Brazilian rosewood in color, if not so figured. Later, in a nearby village, I saw a primitive lumber mill with some moreno boards 20 feet long, 4 inches thick and probably 3 feet wide. Our guide told us that the old growth trees are now so valuable that poachers enter the National Park with teams that include mules, cut up one tree overnight, and haul it out for sale abroad. The idea of old growth, is something new to that part of the world.

Is this what we buy as Bolivian Rosewood?

I suppose it's bound to happen whenever the value gets so high. Reminded me of a third world version of the helicopter poaching of giant cedar trees that used to happen every so often in Olympic National Park.

[Spruce]

"Our Chinese friends virtually import ALL of the lumber used in manufacturing wood products. They stripped away all of their forests many years ago and are now in the midst of reforestation. It is illegal to harvest or cut existing timber there."

Then why am I seeing Chinese wood in all the cheaper Chinese instruments, Eastman mandolins, etc. etc.?

It's my understanding that there is a thriving tonewoods biz in Dongbei...

Not true??

[gypsy1]

A little more on the rain forest of S.A.

ATLANTIC MOIST FOREST
OF SOUTHERN BAHIA
South-eastern Brazil

Location: Southern Bahia State, extending c. 100-200 km inland from coast, between about latitudes 13°-18°S and longitudes 39°-41°30'W.
Area: Originally c. 70,500 km²: 33,500 km² wet forest and 37,000 km² mesophytic forest; fragmented extent remaining is unknown, probably 35%.
Altitude: . 0-1000 m.
Vegetation: Sequentially inland: littoral "restinga" forest, moist (wet to mesophytic) forests, liana forest.
Flora: Related to rain forests of eastern Amazon but distinct, with very high percentage of endemics; extremely diverse c. 440 tree species [>=] 5 cm dbh per ha. Because diversity so high and flora so poorly known, no useful estimate of number of species is possible.
Useful plants: Timber species, including now rare Caesalpinia echinata (Brazil-wood), Dalbergia nigra (Brazilian rosewood); epiphytes as breeding sites for cocoa pollinators; ornamentals.
Other values: Endemic and threatened fauna; rich in potential germplasm resources; possible ecological tourism.
Threats: Clearing for timber, cattle pastures, crops, plantations; gathering fuelwood, charcoal production. Brazil's Atlantic Coast forest is one of two most endangered forests on Earth only 2-5% of original forest estimated worth saving. Certain forest types affected disproportionately, on soils good for economically important crops.
Conservation: : Less than 300 km² or 0.1% of wet forest in some federal, state and private reserves; virtually none of mesophytic forest conserved.


Regarding China's logging industry, the reference was to the common man who can no longer cut randomly, (like so many other countries). As we drove for about 3 hours from Dunhua, heading NE I couldn't help noticing the lack of trees. It prompted me to ask about the stands that where visible and that is what I was told by a member of the forestry dept. of China.

It is a vast country and NE China does log and they are improving methods and replanting. Regarding Eastman Strings, can't answer that, they do talk about tonewoods of the 'Carpathian Mountains of Romania' on their site. The amount of imported logs far exceeds anything they may harvest, the primary use being other then musical instruments.

[Jim Nollman]

If you are ever in Sao Paolo, I highly recommend a visit to the botanical gardens. They have a little grove of brazil wood and brazilian rosewood, with a noted history of the two species. They named the country after brazilwood, not vice versa.

These are not big trees. Some species of the former (caesalpinia) is not an uncommon garden tree in American horticulture. Rosewood is the pea family. It makes me wonder if anyone has ever made a mandolin from a rather common pea family tree cousin for the northern garden called Laburnum. You've all seen it, another small tree, with hanging yellow flowers early in the spring.

[gypsy1]

A little more on China's logging ban

In the wake of the implementation of China’s Natural Forest Protection Project started in September 1998, China’s government had issued logging ban and been cutting the forest production in Southwest (Sichuan,Yunan),Northeast (Heilongjiang, Jilin and Inner Mongolia) and other major forest zones. Until last year, the second annum for implementing the project, China’s forest production reached 50.49 million cubic meters, decreased by 11.1% from 1998. China’s wood imports increased sharply by 111% from 1998 to 10.13 million cubic meters. China’s wood products market experienced different stages: upturn, recession and recovery. At present, it is the third annum for the domestic natural forest protection, meanwhile, China’s central government has issued strategy to develop in the west (approximately 1/3 provinces in the nation). Being centralized in infrastructure construction, of which wood product, without a doubt, is the important consuming material. In addition, the government assumed that the real estate industry would play a significant role for sustainable economic growth in the future, making a dramatic growth rate of 20% and totaled production reached over US$ 40 billions in domestic ornaments market.

China Timber Processing Industry Report, 2006-2007

Since 2005, China witnessed a fast growth of major timber products in terms of export. From the perspective of quantities, five major categories, that is, log, sawn timber, veneer board, fiber board and furniture in 2005 grew rapidly, up by 16.94%, 35.68%, 30.45%, 355% and 18.27% respectively over the year of 2004, while from the angle of total value, the year-on-year rise is 5.73%, 34%, 55.32%, 393% and 29.43% separately, which indicated China timber products industry has made great development in the year of 2005.

Though China is a major producer of timber and wooden products as well as a large consumer, it has little forestry (timber) resources per capita. Since the State started the Natural Forest Preserving Project in the year of 1998, the forest harvesting has been significantly reduced in China, which resulted in great imbalance of timer supply and demand. The import of wooden materials becomes a must as the rapid development of China's economy, the expanding of infrastructure construction and the improvement of people's living standards.

[Spruce]

So-ooo, how does your statement that "our Chinese friends virtually import ALL of the lumber used in manufacturing wood products" jive with your observation that "since 2005, China witnessed a fast growth of major timber products in terms of export", gypsy1?

Just curious....

[gypsy1]

There are a number of articles and docs. regarding this. One interesting thing is that 66% of harvest from Chinese forest go to heating and cooking 34% to industrial.
Related article:

Western Demand Drives Increase In Chinese Timber Imports

Environmental campaigners increasingly pointed to the impact of Chinese demand on Russia's vast forests (pictured), and local authorities in the Russian Far East have moved to crack down on illegal logging.
by Staff Writers
Geneva (AFP) Oct 10, 2006
Western demand for Chinese furniture has fuelled a increase of more than threefold in China's wood imports, and illegal timber from Russia's vast forests is helping to sustain the industry, a United Nations agency said on Tuesday. In a report on China's influence on the timber market, the UN Economic Commission for Europe (UNECE) said that the Russian Far East represented the major source of raw materials for the Chinese industry, which has also become the world's leading exporter of forest products.
"China's own forests meet only a small part of its industrial roundwood appetite, with the result that China is now the world's number one importer of logs, both softwood and roundwood," said the UNECE, whose research focuses largely on Europe's former communist bloc.

"Russia is the main source of softwood logs, supplying about 70 percent of China's needs. A small part of China's imports is of certified origin but it does seem that a significant share may be from illegal sources."

China imported 232.6 million cubic tonnes of timber in 2005, an increase of 233 percent compared with the 1997 figure, the agency said. It did not provide an estimate for illegal imports.

Environmental campaigners increasingly pointed to the impact of Chinese demand on Russia's vast forests, and local authorities in the Russian Far East have moved to crack down on illegal logging.

China's wood product exports have increased by 360 percent since 1997, and were worth a total of 16.4 billion dollars in 2005, said the UNECE.

The vast majority of the exports are made up of furniture, and China is now the top supplier for the United States, it said.

Chinese-made furniture also accounts for one third of the European market, said the UNECE.

[Spruce]

OK, I get it now.... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[gypsy1]

Here's a little more on the topic, Washington Post article -

Corruption Stains Timber Trade

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...._3.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/31/AR2007033101287_3.html)

[KanMando]

Last week I flew from Vancouver airport to Ucluelet on the west coast of Vancouver Island. Even from 10,000 feet over the island, I rarely saw ANY area that hadn't been clearcut, and then only the steep slopes. I'm talking hundreds, maybe thousands of square miles of what until recently had been one of the world's largest contiguous sitka spruce forests. I had always thought of that area as still wild. In the newspapers, you mostly read about that area because there are so many mountaion lion attacks. Now I can see why. The entire habitat is gone. Sure, I knew logging occurred there, but hadn't any idea of the scale or the revenousness of the operation.

That's wood and paper for all our use. So did you and i do it? That's one good question.

Anyone interested in the history of Sitka spruce logging in British Columbia should read "The Golden Spruce" by John Vaillant.

Vaillant confirms beluga's observation.

According to Vaillant, it was the Sitka's suitability for early airplane construction that led to its being logged instensively, starting in 1917.

Here's an excerpt:

"Light in weight, Sitka spruce wood possesses a rare combination of strength and flexibility that is ideal for making airplane wings and fuselages; cut into strips and laminated, it also makes excellent propellers."

Now - get this:

"It has the added benefit in that it doesn't splinter when hit by bullets"

"The highest grade of Sitka became known as 'airplane spruce'."

Well, at least I don't have to worry about splinters if somebody shoots me while I'm playing my Martin.

[Peter Hackman]

So it's ideal for playing in bars.

[neangler]

Curiously, it's not Sitka spruce that may become scarce.

A few months ago, National Public Radio had a long story about pernumbuco (sp?), which is used to make violin and other bows. It comes mostly from Brazil, and the government there is restricting, or contemplating restricting, exports because the last stands of pernumbuco are being depleted.

Several bow manufacturers were interviewed in the story, and because a bow of any size requires such a small amount of wood, all said that had "lifetime" supplies. But, what about future bow makers?

Are those carbon fiber mandos and Coda violin bows the wave of the future? I own a Coda Classic, which is their best bow, and it's great. But, there's just something neat about knowing that a true craftsman started with a hunk of wood and made something that can make music.

[stevem]

Thanks for the Google Earth tip, Paul. I was shocked to see just how much they've cleared.

[Hammrn]

I think that there is a fact being overlooked here. With most of you owning more than one instrument there's gonna be a heck of surplus of used instruments in say, 40 years!

[jasona]

Only if we convince the ever increasing future generations that only one mandolin is sufficient. But what are the odds of that happening? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[buddyellis]

There's a good bit of old growth picea rubens up in the GSMNP, in remote places. There are alot of hemlocks now that are all quite dead with the adelgid infestation. Many of the other balsams (firs, etc) are gone to a different adelgid.

While global warming may have some impact (debatable, as average temps here really havn't changed much at all in the last century), the biggest impact on those forests is pollution and acid rain from the triangulation of urban areas to the north, south east and west, along with these two bugs imported from asia circa the early 20th century.

On the TN side of the blueridge, newfound gap road, I'd guess some 80% of the hemlocks are GONE, grey, dead, not to return for a long time (there are a few trees that are resistant) and this happened in a REMARKABLY short period of time (2 years ago those forests were quite green and thriving). These trees are literally the chestnuts of the 21st century, dying by the thousands. A large percentage of the Firs have been gone for several years, and the hemlock devastation is possibly more pervasive.

My point is, while we impact forest greatly with irresponsible logging, we impact them MUCH MORE rapidly and wastefully with increased pollution and irresponsible trade, bringing non-native organisms into the habitat. Those acres and acres of hemlocks died in a period of time that they NEVER could have been logged, the entire hemlock forest has been wiped out on the 441 gap road in TN. Other trees may fill in the gaps (poplars for sure quite quickly) but I'll never see a hemlock forest in my lifetime again.