Playability

[LKN2MYIS]

I figured you guys would be able to answer this one.

Friend came by during the week with 2 mandos - both higher end instruments. The 'nicer' one (more expensive) sounded incredible, however my fingers hurt incredibly after playing it.

At first, I thought maybe the action was too high, so I lowered the saddle at the bridge a tad, but no difference. Both of these instruments had J74 strings.

What could cause this? I'm thinking perhaps the nut needs to be lowered? I'm guessing here, just a weird exprience. My friend notices the same thing when he plays that one, so it isn't just me. Frets are like new.

Any idea what's going on and how to fix it? (I know, take it to a luthier, but is there any home-grown remedy this guy can try first? No luthiers in his vicinity, and he refuses to give it to me!)

As always, any and all help is appreciated. Great instrument, shouldn't hurt to play it.

Thanks -
John

[ErikAitch]

I'm thinking perhaps the nut needs to be lowered?
That's probably the ticket. Here's how I check for corret height at the nut: while fretted at the third fret, press the string down over the first fret. There should be the least possible clearance between the string and fret, IMO; some people like a little less, some a little more.

The other possibility is excess relief: hold a string down at the 12th fret, then check for clearance at the 6th.

Fixing either of those is not too hard as long as Mr. Murphy doesn't show up. And you're capable of working slowly and carefully.

[LKN2MYIS]

He's never attempted anything like this (nor have I), but I'm sure there is info at frets.com. The scary part would seem to be removing the old nut.

I'm not a luthier, but I can't think of anything else that could be causing it. It isn't excess relief - I checked the 6th fret clearance while fretting the 12th, and it seems fine.

How crazy is it to remove the nut? AND - is it feasable that filing the slots could achieve the desired result without any negative reactions?

I'm fishing here.

[Mario Proulx]

You don't remove the nut to adjust the slots. You don't have to remove the nut at any time, except to replace it.

To check relief, fret at the first fret with your left hand(or use a capo), and fret at the 14th with your right hand pinky, and using your right hand's first finger, check the relief at around the 6-7th fret. There should be very little there(I want to see .005" or less).

To see if the nut is at fault, put a capo on(borrow one from a banjo or guitar if you don't have one), at the first fret, and play it for a while. If it still feels stiff, your issue is the relief or the overall action.

Since you're not giving us any real numbers, we're assuming you're not set up to accurately measure the action, correct? Just eyeballing won't do, because the difference between nice action and stiff is often .005" or so for some of us, and you're not going to see that. Get yee a feeler gauge set($10 or less at any auto parts store) and measure them up.

Oh, and check the scale length on each; some of us are using slightly different scale lengths these days from te norm, and it makes a big difference.

[LKN2MYIS]

I don't believe that I said you have to remove the nut to file the slots - 2 distinct ideas.

No, sadly, no measuring tools, but obviously I need to pick some up as what you're saying makes sense.

Like the capo idea - I'll be talking to him this afternoon and suggest it. That should provide a world of information.

Thanks - I'll keep you posted.

[dunbarhamlin]

A pencil gives a good non marring diagnostic of poor nut slot depth. (Proviso - frets must be in good order (in particular no high frets) for this to work)
Put a sheet of sandpaper on a flat surface and sand away half of the pencil lengthwise so the point marks flush when laid flat. Run this across the frets, marking the nut. Anything down to, but NOT below the bottom of the pencil line is good. This gives slot bottoms in the same plane as the frets. I'd aim for slots coming down to just meet the top of a thin pencil line.

Checking out Frank Ford's site definitely a good idea.

Cheers
Steve

[Jonathan Peck]

The 'nicer' one (more expensive) sounded incredible, however my fingers hurt incredibly after playing it.
You can send it to me, this is exacly how I like them. I like a mandolin to play stiff, but not hurt my fingers. It's very possible that the nut is higher than you are used to, but it might be worth trying to get used to it if it sounds incredible the way it is. Once you've played with J-75's with a standard nut height and low or med/low action, or with J-74's with a higher nut and medium action, it's really hard to go back to floppy low action.

I guess it comes down to personal preference about the way your mandolin is set-up, sounds and plays. I don't think there's anything wrong with the mandolin in question, or the set-up. It just might not be right for you or the way you play. It doesn't happen over night, but your hands will get stronger, your fingers can become oblivious to the difference, and the pick will love the more responsive attack. Soon you will be able to play as fast, as clean, and be rewarded with a different tone that you may or may not find more desireable.

-jonathan

[jim_n_virginia]

I filed my nut on a Taylor guitar once and messed it up. Tried to make a new one out of a bone blank. I'll just say it wasn't very pretty. Took it to a guitar tech at Guitar Center who assured me he knew what he was doing.

He didn't...

Ended up getting a Luthier to make me a nice pearl one. If you are in unfamilar territory as I was I suggest taking it real slow. I ruined my nut in 5 minutes. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

Some things are just easier to pay someone to do... like changing the tranmission on an old pickup... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[LKN2MYIS]

Thanks for the wealth of tips. I've passed them along, and hopefully I'll have some more information to go on.

I think that he isn't used to it, and, if it is a simple fix, I believe he should have it done. The nut looked like it would be real scary to remove without damaging the finish on the headstock/neck.

[250sc]

LKN2MYIS,

Sorry but I just re-read this and I still don't know why you what to remove the nut. What am I missing?

[LKN2MYIS]

250sc -

Basically it is painful on the fingers fretting on the first fret. Not just me, but the owner feels that was as well.

When the 1st fret is capoed, the second fret plays fine. Action is nice and low all over the neck, and it plays beautifuly. The exception is any fretting on the first fret - it is painful to the fingers. The height of the first fret seems correct.

He was over again last night with it, so I tried the capo thing. I also compared his nut to 2 of my mandolins, and it is indeed higher. I understand that this works in conjunction with neck angle, etc., but it is noticably higher.

I think (not a luthier, and thinking is a rare and difficult process for me) that his nut needs to be filed down a tad to alleviate this first fret issue. I'm just guessing, but feedback so far is making me lean toward this.

Part of the problem is there is no good repair person locally, and if he ships it it will cost him a fortune in shipping and insurance.

Last night we did lower the saddle a bit (thumbscrews), and the first fret was a bit easier, but still an issue. Can't lower it anymore without buzz.

That's what's making me think that the nut needs to be filed down a bit. I would attempt this for him myself, but I am terrified of screwing up the finish in removing the nut.

That's my story. He's living with it, and it is a minor annoyance, but you shouldn't be annoyed playing the mandolin at all.

[Jerry Byers]

Is the existing nut made of bone or pearl? If it's bone, then you can file down the nut height with it in place. Even though the bone is hard, it files pretty easily. With the right tools and patience, it's not difficult to do.

[LKN2MYIS]

It's bone.

My fear isn't the filing of the nut, it's the removal part.

[Jerry Byers]

No need to remove the nut. Once you have your slots filed down to the correct depth, you can file down the top of the nut - in place. Given that you're only taking off a minute layer of the bone, you can file and polish the nut in place.

[LKN2MYIS]

Never thought of that.

Few questions come to mind.

What files to I need to get for him? (slots as well as top of nut)

How does the nut get polished after (or does it)?

[Jerry Byers]

I use these files (http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Files/Nut_and_Saddle_Shaping_Files.html) to shape and dress the nut. After that, I use micromesh to polish, if needed. There are a number of slotting files out there; I happen to use these (http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Files/Double-edge_Nut_Files.html).

[Jerry Byers]

Just remember to 'measure twice, then measure again, and then file." Bone files pretty easily and quickly. Take your time and 'sneak up' on it - patience is the name of the game. If you file too much, then you need to worry about removing the nut.

[LKN2MYIS]

This sounds like a real workable solution.

Anything I need to watch out for? Measuring fret depth? Protecting the area around the nut?

[sunburst]

Here's how you do it, from frets.com. (http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Setup/NewNut/newnut3.html)

Since you don't seem to have full confidence in you ability to do a good job of shaping and polishing the nut, I'd suggest using the part of Frank's article that you need to get the string heights comfortable at the nut, and leaving it like that until the owner can get it to a lutheir to "finish" the job. Just skip all the early part of the article about removing an old nut, making the new one, and all that, and then quit when the strings are the correct height. The slots will probably be a little deep in the nut when you're done, but that won't hurt anything. Reshaping the nut is best done with it removed from the instrument, and that can wait.

[LKN2MYIS]

I'll check it out.

Thanks - and YES, I have a lack of faith in my ability. Never done this before, and don't want to screw up a friend's instrument.

[Jerry Byers]

Good advice, John. I think once LKN2MYIS gets the slots to the right depth, there will be very little need to reshape the nut. Most of the time, the adjustments are fractions of an inch.

[mythicfish]

Although this is not a highly involved operation ... it's not for everyone.
If you have no experience in working to and measuring close tolerences ... and
You don't own the tools ... and
You are not familiar with such tools ... and
You don't plan to perform this proceedure again in the foreseeable future ... then
You are better off taking it to a qualified repairperson. Even the best set of instructions does not guarantee success.
BTW how far out on "The Island" are you?

Curt

[Rick Crenshaw]

Edited to reflect the fact that the poster understands the work can be done without removing the nut.

Mark the nut with a pencil as has been suggested. #Get some decent jeweler's files or the micro file kit at Radio Shack or hobby stores, some welder's tip cleaners, or some or some actual nut files. #Put a few layers of some good masking tape on the f/b in front of the nut and on the headstock behind the nut. #I like the blue easy release painter's masking tape.

Loosen the E or the G string and lift it aside. #While slanting the file downward toward the headstock, file a bit on the slot. #Place the string back in the slot and check it according to the pages at FRETS.COM (Thanks, Frank!!). #Continue one string at a time till you've finished.

The deal is this... work slowly and check the depth OFTEN. #File just a tad and check the depth by putting the string back in the slot. #Should you accidentally file too deep, save the bone dust and mix up a bit of bone dust and Superglue. #Fill the slot and start over. #Or slip a piece of aluminum foil or paper under the string. #If you work slowly and check often, you'll do fine.

Oh yeah, if your file is too long, tape pieces of cardboard or heavy paper over the headstock to protect it from scratches.

For a professional looking job and best tone, once your slots are where you want them, use a fine 1/4 to 3/8 inch wide file to work the overall nut height down to where the slots aren't deeply embedding the strings. #Or you can use some sand paper on a popsicle stick or something like that. #Again, use the blue masking tape to protect the mandolin. #Tape all around with two or more layers.

I'll make this offer, also. #If you want some nut files, PM me. #I'll lend them to you with a deposit. #Though you can do an adequate job with the smallest of the Radio Shack files.

[LKN2MYIS]

As always, a wealth of sound advice and good ideas.

I am not comfortable doing this type of work, but as a rule I am very handy. I need to decide if 1) I should volunteer to do this for him and 2) should I do it for him.

CURT -

I'm on the Nassau / Suffolk border. Mando Bros. is a solid 1 1/2 hours away w/o NYC traffic, and their wait list is hideous. No one else I'd recommend locally for my friend.

[DryBones]

had the same problem with an Eastman. hard to fret at the first fret. took it to a shop and they filed the slots down and reset the bridge height and now it plays like butta! cheap fix, don't chance it yourself.

[whistler]

I have found that a lot of mandolins, at both ends of the market, come with their nuts on the high side. Perhaps this is done with the reasoning that it can easily be lowered, if necessary, but can't be raised without considerably more work.

[LKN2MYIS]

Makes a lot of sense to me.

[250sc]

I thought there was a communication problem since Mario Proulx told you that you didn't need to remove the nut in the fourth post of the thread.

Looks like you have it under control now. Just remember that logically the slots should be the same height as the frets. (Think zero fret)

Good luck.

[Fretbear]

When I arrive at a perfectly set-up nut's string height from the first fret, I like to make a record of it by using mandolin or guitar string ends as feeler gauges (.011",.016", etc.) to give me something to work towards next time and avoid guess work and filing too far.

[Philip Halcomb]

You're in Long Island, if it's a high-end instrument just take it to John Monteleone and have it set it up. Or it might be worth a trip to Mando Bros. in Staten Island. That's what I'd do if I was in doubt. Take care...

[PaulD]

Just remember that logically the slots should be the same height as the frets. (Think zero fret)
I'm not sure I understand this statement. It seems to me that what you're shooting for are slots that are slightly higher than the 1st fret. Not that I have much experience filing nuts... I've only done it on a couple of my own instruments... but I was taught to fret the string at the 2nd fret and leave a sliver of light between the string and the first fret.

Back to the original post; I suggest you ask around to find a luthier or repair person to send your friend do. I will work on my own instruments, but I'd have to be damn sure of what I was doing before I started filing on somebody else's. Granted, it's not rocket science, but there are things that could go wrong besides just cutting the slots too deep... like leaving the strings binding or rounding the slot on the fingerboard side and messing up the intonation. It doesn't sound to me like you're 100% sure it's even the action at the nut that needs adjusting. If you can find someone who knows what they're doing and make an appointment, I think they could be done with setting the action in a couple of hours unless there's something funky going on.

Obviously that's just my opinion and I'm not a qualified repair person... just another DIY hack.

pd

[250sc]

PaulD,

If you think of playing with a capo on the first fret (which is the exact same height as the second fret)you will see the logic. The first fret isn't a little higher than the second and the instrument plays fine without it being a little higher.

If you didn't use a nut and just had a zero fret in it's place the instrument would play fine also.

I do agree that is sounds like he should find someone else to do the work on his friends instrument.

[PaulD]

I guess I see your point... maybe I could be lowering my action a touch more. In thinking about it the only reason for leaving a sliver of light at the 1st fret is to keep a hack like me from cutting the nut a little too low. It's easier to see that sliver than to see whether you're at the same height as the fret or a few thou below.

pd

[dunbarhamlin]

Some use different fret wire to get a slightly higher zero fret, others dress the zero fret to the same height as the others.
A smidgen higher just puts a little more resilience into the system (allows for strings burrowing into the zero fret and/or a less than perfect levelling job) and also more closely matches a heavier fretting finger or hard set capo's action, which will raise the apparent string origin above the fret height slightly (strings curve up over the fret - how much will depend on the flexibility (thickness, brand and age) of the string.)

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Well, now that I've swallowed the fly (an aside (inside my aside (indeed))) I'll signoff.

Cheers
Steve

[mythicfish]

What brand of instrument we talkin' about?

Curt

[LKN2MYIS]

You're in Long Island, if it's a high-end instrument just take it to John Monteleone and have it set it up. Or it might be worth a trip to Mando Bros. in Staten Island. That's what I'd do if I was in doubt. Take care...
As I said, Mando Bros is 1 1/2 hours away WITHOUT taking into account NYC traffic. They'll also keep it for a few months to do the work, so it's not an option.

Hard to get Moneleone to accept any work.

The local Sam Ash repair dept. should be able to file the slots down in the nut for him. I wouldn't trust them to remove the nut.

BY the way - IS there a recommended height (depth?) for the slot to be cut? A certain fraction above the first fret or something?

[sunburst]

...I was taught to fret the string at the 2nd fret and leave a sliver of light between the string and the first fret.
There's a little relief in the fingerboard. Try this:

Press the string down at the 4th fret and the first fret so that the string bridges from the first to the third fret. If all is well with the mandolin, you'll see the sliver of light between the string and the second fret. The nut does, in fact, act as a zero fret, though some like it slightly higher as some like the zero fret to be a bigger fret.

The sliver of light that you see between the second fret and the string if you do the above procedure is about what you want at the first fret when you're filing the nut slots. It's just a way of measuring the height of the strings over the frets that uses the string as a straight edge rather than measuring. It leaves the height of the frets above the fingerboard and the height of the bridge out of the equation, and simplifies the whole process. Frank's article has pictures and a good explanation. Don't over-think this.

[Philip Halcomb]

Yeah, I dunno, I've stopped in Mando Bros and asked for minor adjustments before and I've been lucky enough that they could do it right on the spot. Adjusting nuts slots and a truss rod is a very trivial and quick thing to do. I can't see them holding onto it for months for that. And driving, well if that bothers your friend he might be spending a lot more money and driving a lot further if he screws it up and needs a whole new nut installed. Good luck with whatever you do. Hope it works out.

[LKN2MYIS]

UPDATE:


So I just got back from taking my buddy and his mando to the local Sam Ash repair dept. We had a 10 a.m. appointment (!).

They filed the nut slots down, lubricated the truss rod, gave it a minor 'tweak' after checking it in an odd machine that gives you a view of the neck as it should be and where it falls on that line.

I was knocked over - the guy did a GREAT job while we waited and watched. Turns out he builds mandolins and guitars on the side. Total cost: $40.

My friend is ecstatic and his mandolin now plays great in the first position, as well as all over.

Thanks to all for your help and input. It really put his mind at ease, plus now I've got a local guy!

Thanks again -
John