Alchohol in finishes

[Sitka]

I been meaning to ask this for a while, then Bill's post finally gave me that push. Does anybody actually use whiskey, or something of the sort, for staining?

Thanks everybody for putting up with my naive questions over the past years.

Micah

[buddyellis]

Dunno about staining, but plenty of people use high proof liquor for cutting shellac.

[Paul Hostetter]

Whiskey has several uses, but staining wood isn't one of the better ones, unless you count its effect on the inside of a barrel.

[Frank Ford]

I figured it went the other way, with the burned inside of the barrel imparting that color to the whiskey. #Booze is wonderful stuff, but it has too much water in it to be useful in shellac, unless you live where #you can get "Everclear" or the equivalent pure alky. #It's an expensive way to go, what with the federal tax on liquor.

Cheers,

Frank Ford
FRETS.COM (http://www.frets.com)
Gryphon Stringed Instruments (http://www.gryphonstrings.com)
My Home Shop Pages (http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Machining/index.html)

[buddyellis]

Yea, I tend to get the denatured stuffs that use isopropanol as the denaturant, instead of methanol. I know several builders (dudenbostel?) that do use everclear in their spirit varnish though. It is the oak that imparts the color to whisky. Grain alcohol after distilling is clear, like vodka.

[oldwave maker]

I like Spruce's label antiqueing advice, putting the label in a shallow saucer with coffee and letting it all evaporate. Once soaked dried red chile in alcohol and made a beautiful dark red stain, put the bottle on a sunny shelf and it was clear again in a couple of days. Most vegetal stuff isnt lightfast. Some folks seal fiddles with partially evaporated pure gum spirits of turpentine, gives a darker amber cast to the wood.

[Paul Hostetter]

Isopropanol *is* an alcohol, it's not an additive and not a denaturant. It's toxic, and very hard to obtain pure, mostly sold cut 30% with water, unless you have access and security passes to lab supplies.

Methyl alcohol is another pure alcohol that's also very toxic, and is deliberately added to ethyl alcohol (theoretically 200 proof booze) to contaminate it so you can’t drink it. Isopropyl’s not much better for you: oxidized by the liver into acetone, poisoning can occur from ingestion, inhalation, or absorption. Long term application to the skin can cause defatting, which I suppose might not be such a bad thing for some of us.

Ethanol is the only true alcohol that isn’t particularly toxic, which is why it’s all I’ll use. I get mine from a friend in the wine biz who uses it to make fruit cordials and buys it by the 55-gallon drum at reasonable prices. It’s about two bucks for a ten liter can in Europe, but absurdly expensive in Oregon, the closest location where I can buy it off the shelf as Everkleer or equivalent. I think the last time I bought it up there it ran about $18 for a fifth. Ouch.

[testore]

I've used Everclear. It's much safer to use and you can end the day with a snort too.

[Antlurz]

I think Everclear is 3 or 4 bucks a bottle cheaper around here than what Paul has to pay for it. Tastes Great. Less Filling. Well, it does a good job on the instruments anyhow. I use it for cutting stain, and sometimes even for cutting Pepsi. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Ron

[Dale Ludewig]

I use EverClear to cut my shellac. I think it's a little cheaper here also, but I'd have to check. It's been a while since I've bought it, but I think it's the best way to go. I'd also say that a snort or two of it would be plenty. It burns. And I certainly wouldn't have any with the shellac in it. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Chris Baird]

Shellaced is a term which may apply to a finishing technique or a particularly pleasant experience.

[Antlurz]

Well, yeah. That too! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I think you might have hit on some historical insight there, Chris.

Ron

[Antlurz]

Which begs the question: Has Everclear ever been used in "plastering" walls? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Ron

[Bernie Daniel]

Paul Hostetter: Isopropanol *is* an alcohol, it's not an additive and not a denaturant. It's toxic, and very hard to obtain pure, mostly sold cut 30% with water, unless you have access and security passes to lab supplies.

Paul some parts of your statement could be misconstrued I think -- in one of my lives I was a research toxicologist.

Just to be clear if isopropyl alcohol (2-propanol, or IPA) is added to ethanol then it is an *additive* the fact that it is an alcohol, or that it is toxic, has nothing to do with that.

When IPA is in ethanol solution it is there because it was added to break up the ethanol-water azeotrope (Circa 96% ethanol -- 4% water) that #is the limit distillation ratio of the alcolol. (They used to use benzene so IPA is an improvement!)

Now as to IPA being toxic -- sure it is toxic but it is nothing to be overly alarmed about -- to have a 50% chance of fatally killing ourself with IPA you'd have to drink about a cup of pure IPA. (keep in mind distilled water is also toxic -- under the right conditions)

In fact, given orally to rats IPA is only a little more toxic than ethanol and likewise the difference in oral toxicicity between ethanol and isopropyl alcohol to humans is not large. #Drinking a cup of either alcohol could have deadly consequences.

As to dermal toxicity I do not know that I have ever looked this up but I would not be surprised to find that ethanol might be as toxic or even more toxic than IPA because it is absorbed more efficiently. #That is why the dermal toxiciy of methanol is actually quite high.

So used #properly isopropyl alcohol is quite safe -- which is why you can walk into any drug store and buy a 70% solution of it (rubbing alcohol). #So there is no reason not to use IPA-ethanol mixtures (in a proper manner) on safety grounds.

Now as to the statement "Ethanol is the only true alcohol that isn’t particularly toxic, which is why it’s all I’ll use."

Just for the record, more people die from ethanol related causes than any other chemical in the world I would guess.

[buddyellis]

Well I dunno, but the 'denatured alcohol' I buy around here lists isopropanol and ethyl alcohol on it's MSDS sheet (no methanol), and if I have to choose, I'll choose isopropal over methanol any day. Compare the data sheets:
http://www.ilo.org/public....057.htm (http://www.ilo.org/public/english/protection/safework/cis/products/icsc/dtasht/_icsc00/icsc0057.htm)
http://www.ilo.org/public....554.htm (http://www.ilo.org/public/english/protection/safework/cis/products/icsc/dtasht/_icsc05/icsc0554.htm)

Obviously if I were doing large scale FP ops, I'd probably opt for pure grain alcohol, but at the quantity I do (3 or 4 instruments a year) I'd have to practically bathe in the stuff once in a while to make a difference. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Bernie Daniel]

buddyellis: I'll choose isopropal over methanol any day

I believe you will find that is EXACTLY the message I was trying to convey Buddy. #

Years ago I was with the National Institute of Occupational Health and Safety (NIOSH)and I was involved with writing those material safety data (MSD) sheets so I have compared them many many times -- however it was in the previous centruy! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Yes to repeat. #Methanol (methyl alcohol, wood alcohol) is quite toxic. #It can still be handled safely but care and knowledge are needed - it should never be taken orally.

Isopranol (isopropyl alcohol, 2-propanol) is much safer and it is only a bit more toxic than ethanol (ethyl alcohol, grain alcohol) and is quite safe to use if you are not reckless with it.

And yes the isopropyl alcohol in ethanol can be considered a denaturant -- this is because it was added in at the end of the ethanol distillation process to drive off the final 4% of water.

[Paul Hostetter]

Interesting, thank you. I had never heard of isopropyl being added to ethanol as a denaturant, and am still wondering if it's really called that, as opposed to having the possibility of being called a denaturant. I always understood a denaturant to be a euphemism for a toxin deliberately added to prevent ethanol from being drunk, not to drive off water, and I have also understood that that last bit of water is more or less unavoidable unless one never opens the bottle. IOW, even if you had a bottle of 100% pure alcohol, as soon as it was exposed to air it would begin absorbing water, diluting itself in the process. Furthermore I had understood that commercial isopropyl was routinely 20-30% water from the get go, which explained why it never worked well with shellac flakes. They didn't really dissolve, but the whole thing turned into a layered muck. Hmmm. Learn something new every day. I'm still sticking with straight ethanol, and will leave drinking it to medical students' punch at parties.

[nashvillestringshop]

I use everklear in my shop because I understand that the denaturant can be anything from gasoline to deisel fuel to metheyl-ethyl-ketone. The can of denatured I'm looking at now doesn't list what's in it. I don't know what this other stuff is going to do to my finish, so I try to err on the side of caution. BTW, in Nashville I pay 34.50 for a gallon.

[sunburst]

...and I have also understood that that last bit of water is more or less unavoidable unless one never opens the bottle. IOW, even if you had a bottle of 100% pure alcohol, as soon as it was exposed to air it would begin absorbing water, diluting itself in the process.
As I remember from college chemistry back in 19-something, that's about right.
It's the afore mentioned "alcohol-water azeotrope (Circa 96% ethanol -- 4% water)". That's the best you can do by distillation, and any further purification of the alcohol has to be done chemically. The 96% alcohol is "pure grain", while 100% alcohol is called "absolute alcohol". It's hygroscopic, and if you leave the container open to the atmosphere your absolute alcohol will eventually revert to "pure grain". I remember a 55 gallon drum of "absolute alcohol" in a storage room off of the organic chemistry lab with a clip board and sheet of paper so that every drop could be accounted for. It was a totally odorless clear liquid, that I'm told has no taste either, quite a "burn" though, I imagine.

[Bernie Daniel]

Well this is a mandolin forum so to be brief there are literally hundreds of ways to remove water from ethanol and more are being developed all the time as there is again intense interest in this with ethanol being served up as transportion fuel.

As to drinking denatured alcohol -- well I do not advise it for sure -- but back in the 60's chemists (esp college students) were tough (and ignorant) and would often stoop to adding a little "absolute" to their coke if they could not find any good old "95". #(the amount of benzene was very tiny -- still not too smart).

Yeah they drank in a little benzene in the process but that would not be drop in the bucket to the amount of benzene, toluene, acetone, methanol, chloroform, dimethylformamide and heaven knows what else lab chemists were exposed to and adsorbed - via skin and inhalation - back in those good old before a lot of the safety standards came into place. #

A college chem lab was about as dangerous a place as you could find I reckon. #Even years after industry cleaned up its act many of the college chemd departments -- who did a lot of the research -- were the among LAST to make their workplaces safe. #Odd isn't it?

As a person who handled benzene on an open bench years ago --and poured it into a beaker like eveyone else in the lab -- I have to chuckle at how aghast and terrified some folks get over a whiff of something. Its all relative.

For sure these alcohols are all toxic to varying degrees but they are not strychnine by any means. #Still using safe approved handling procedures is certainly advised - always.

[Paul Hostetter]

The thread heading says "Maybe a stupid question" but I've learned a lot. And not just how cheap ethanol is in Kentucky, either.

[buddyellis]

Same here paul. I just sorta 'lucked into' the denatured without methyl in it as I had started hunting for a substitute after hearing (on here of course) about the absorption of methyl alcohol and started reading MSDS info on all the various brands available locally. Of course, the amount of contact I have is minimal anyway, but better to be safe than to be sorry. I really never knew with any certainty if it was any safer, but at least it appears so.

I want to say I get the stuff at lowes, but I don't remember now. I bought a gallon jug, and keep it well sealed, replacing the metal liner cap as well as the screw cap quickly after pouring out the little I need into another pint jug as my 'use container' and haven't bought any in a while.

For what it's worth, you can also buy 90% isopropal rubbing alcohol in most CVS stores around here (pharmacy) but I don't think 90% is really high enough. I can buy everclear here, but it's about 2-3x the price of the lowes stuff.