Why are they so fickle

[dmamlep]

Why, and is this my opinion, that guitar players are so fickle. I know this is a mandolin site, and I play in a band, and it seems that guitar players are so fickle, we have the hardest time keeping them., the rest of the band has been intact from the beginning. if anyone can tell me, let me know. sometimes makes we want to quit

[catmandu2]

Because we are:

a) a dime-a-dozen
b) secretly harbor dreams of being diva rock stars

Or, to put it another way, the guitar (in modern culture) is the ultimate diletante instrument.

My post was, of course, intended with sarcasm. But with a bit of seriousness: since the guitar functions as the rhythmic foundation, like the bass, it should be the most stable and reliable piece of the ensemble. If this is extended to the emotional component, all the better. If a guitarist isn't interested in this, what are they doing playing the guitar? (this group, I would venture to say, probably comprises the diletante type of player).

[250sc]

What do they tell you when they leave?

[Eugene]

I'm not. Hmmmph!

[fredfrank]

I hope our guitar player stays. It just so happens she's my wife!
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[GVD]

Why, and is this my opinion...

I don't know is it your opinion? If it isn't whose is it?

GVD

[Tim2723]

Well, I"m not sure about other musical forms, but in Irish music the guitarists I've worked with have gotten bored with their role. They didn't want to work on flat picking the melody and they got tired of sitting in the back strumming the same old chords.

[MikeEdgerton]

Here's the secret to keeping your guitar player. Every now and then you pick up the guitar and let him play the mandolin.

[mingusb1]

Guitar owners may be "a dime a dozen", but a good bluegrass guitar player (I don't consider "up-the-neck" stuff to be the measure of this) is one-in-a-dozen, in my experience.

How is your bass player? Are the two fightin' each other a little?

Z

[Kevin Briggs]

I'll second the idea that they want to be divas. Ours is a good flatpicker and stylized singer, but man, he really wants to be a one man show sometimes.

I tend to pick songs to play that highlight the entire band. On the songs he picks, the band is just hi back-up band.

[mandopete]

Why, and is this my opinion, that guitar players are so fickle?
Because most would rather be playing clarinet!

(sorry John!)

[JeffD]

Well I have seen this and I have a theory. I think its because popular culture worships the guitar.

The choice to play mandolin is counter cultural right from the beginning - but a guitar player, playing in a blue grass or old timey band, always feels he/she has other options, some that are more cool.

Its the same with percussionists in the high school band.

I have found the following (boy I am signing up for trouble now):

Guitarists - miss rehursals and try and get out of gigs
Fiddlers - think the band is about them, play too fast and want to control the set list
Banjo players - play loud and seem to put the same licks in every tune (also tend to show up for rehursals early)
String Bass players - love to sing harmonies - loud
Mandolin players - love to noodle around between tunes at a gig, and love to share their instruments with other mandolinists.

With much love to all you guitarists, fiddlers, banjo players, bass players and mandolin players - without you I would have no friends at all!! I'd haveto hang with the accordian players.


http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[ethanopia]

Why are Guitar players so fickle?

Because in a bluegrass band there aren't any drummers and someone has to be fickle right?

[John Flynn]

Jeff: Great stuff! More from the MIT instrument jokes site:

What do you call two guitarists playing in unison?
Counterpoint.

How do you get a guitar player to play softer?
Give him some sheet music.

What's the best thing to play on a guitar?
Solitaire.

Note: I'm a guitar player of over 30 years!

[mandopete]

I'm beginning to think the perfect instrumentation for a group would be...

=> Mandolin
=> Cowbell
=> Accordian
=> Clarinet

...no issues, right?

[MikeEdgerton]

No issues in a band with an accordian?

I don't find any of the issues listed above. Musicians are musicians and they are also people. When you get four or five like minded people together that can and want to play you have a sucessful band. It's all about personalities. If the people can't get along and aren't moving in the same direction you're doomed to fail. Keep looking until you find the right person.

[allenhopkins]

I've worked (not in a bluegrass context) with two or three guitar player - singers, for 20+ years in different groups (Celtic, klezmer, singer-songwriter). Possible contributing variables: they are women, they're not full-time musicians, and the bands' ambitions are limited -- part-time work, some recording, very little if any touring.

The "divas" I've had trouble with have been fiddle players, both male and female, who feel that they should determine repertoire, arrangements, performance style, what gigs are taken or rejected, etc. etc. Oh -- and one klezmer clarinet player who was a real SOB and has gone through many many band members because of his neurotic, controlling personality (RM, you know who you are!).

But when I stop frothing at the mouth, I just want to say that the guitarists with whom I have worked and am working are far from "fickle," but instead are cooperative and accommodating, loyal to their band commitments, and real pleasures to work with.

[Chip Booth]

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the original post, but it is notable that the discussion would be about guitarists. #I read in some music trade magazine that 50% of American males considered themselves "guitarists" at some point in their lives. #That means most of them bought or borrowed a cheapy and learned a few chords. #Statistically speaking that's a huge group of people compared to most any other instrument, and I think that true, natural musicality is not that common.

I wonder how many of us other string players came to our instruments as a result of being a guitarist first, and then moving on once we discovered we had some talent and maybe even the willingness to be more experimental or unique, or in order to serve the needs of a band since guitarists are "a dime a dozen"? #For myself, I tried piano and horns first, then took up the guitar to play rock and roll. #I took up the bass at some point because I had a band that needed a bassist. #I took up the mandolin and other stringed instruments (ok, I admit it, I play some b@nj0) due to a personal desire to find a new and different voice. #I still love the guitar, but maybe it's us likeminded folks who find alternative instruments who aren't part of the "dime a dozen" crowd?

Did that sound conceited? #It's just that mandolin players are so cool... http://www.publicradioband.net/stuff/coolsmiley.gif

Chip

[Jonathan Peck]

I wonder how many of us other string players came to our instruments as a result of being a guitarist first, and then moving on once we discovered we had some talent and maybe even the willingness to be more experimental or unique
I started playing guitar when I was fourteen and when I closed my bedroom door I WUZ A ROCK GOD and played for all the great ones hangin' on my wall. At 17, I was in my first serious band, first gig at 18...At 26, I realized that the universe didn't revolve around me, quit playing seriously and got a serious job instead http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

Got married, had kids and went unplugged (acoustic). Took up mandolin at age 40 and hope some day to learn the cello.

[John Flynn]

Chip:

I agree with you. I played guitar for 20 years, before the mando and I probably fit the "dime a dozen" guitarist tag at that point. When I took up the mandolin, I immediately began to improve as a musician. I could feel it and I could prove it. I started playing melodies, not just chords and pentatonic lead licks. My "ear" got better. I started reading notation and now can even sight read in some situations, even though I never formally set to learn to do that. Mandolin playing even keeps me improving as a guitar player, even though I rarely play the guitar anymore. It has also given me the courage to add the harmonica, the bodhran and the mountain dulcimer to list of instruments I play. I am sure that in my case, none of those things would have happened if I hadn't taken up the mandolin. The mandolin just stepped up my interest in being a musician to the level of obsession and everything followed from that. But without the mando, I would have probably even gotten bored with the guitar and stopped playing music altogehter.

[farmerjones]

it's gotta be a percentage thing. There's just more ovum.

who doesn't play guitar?

Now on the compatibility issue: if it's my project, it's up to me to round up the other musicians. It's understood it's my project. If somebody else has a project, i get called and i work for whoever's doing the project. (gig or recording)Simple.
Sure there's co-leadership sometimes, but the idea of "Let's form a band! It'll be groovy!" and have four or five people all assume co-leadership doesn't happen here. If somebody for one reason or another doesn't cut it, they're replaced. Same for myself, if i don't fit the project, don't waste our time. I'd even help you find the right fit if i can.

[TonyP]

The one thing this thread does prove is, everybody has a different experience. For me, I'm surprised to hear guitar players described as divas. There have been different divas in different bands, but only once was it the guitar player. When I was dealing with rock and roll players, yeah, there was a ton of those divas. But ever since going to acoustic music, and especially bluegrass, that's not been the case. I don't think any one instrument breeds more divas than another. The "dime a dozen" analogy goes the other way here. It's the "rare" instruments(banjo, fiddle and bass) that are rare around here and can be difficult to find and sometimes deal with. Fortunately, both bands I play in have non of that. But, that's why I play with them! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[mandocrucian]

Shouldn't this really be parked over in the bluegrass area?

[Michael H Geimer]

Why? The OP doesn't mention BG at all.

I don't think of guitarists as "divas", but I've had trouble with them getting bored by my desire to hear simple, solid rhythm from the 6-string.

Inevitably, I end playing guitar.

[mandocrucian]

Why? The OP doesn't mention BG at all.

Exactly, with the implication that if there's a mando in the band, it's BG. A blues player would have said something about "blues", and jazzer would have said something about the musical. Besides, blues bands are usually run by either the guitarist, or harpist/singer. A Irish/Celtic player would have most likely posted in the Celtic area. But there is one form of music where it commonly assumed that the sun revolves around Rosine, KY (and that WSM was the inventor of rock n roll).

Perhaps Daryl's band is not BG, since he didn't say " I know this is a manalin site..."

So.... what is the musical style?

[JeffD]

I have played in old timey, celtic, and bluegrass bands, and my comments (in general) apply to all three - guitarists are not usually the divas, they are often just fickle about regular attendance at rehursals and gigs. Fiddlers seem to be the divas - wanting control over the set list and arrangements.

Me, I am perfect in every way, just ask me.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[250sc]

mandocrucian,
I agree, we need more info from the OP. That's why I asked the OP what the guitar players say when they leave.

I've worked in lots of bands and the only one that lasted was one that supplied a pay check every week for about 17 years. If I was bored or didn't like the music I figured it could be worse, at least I was taking home a pay check.

Hopefully the OP will shed some light on the situation.

BTW. I don't buy the original premise that you can assume a character trait like being fickle from what instrument one plays.

[steve V. johnson]

I must be fortunate in that my guitarists are quite stable. #Of course... I'm one of 'em. # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

But I have this problem, as originally stated, with -fiddlers- ALL the time, for the Lopers and for the pick-up Irish gigs that come up that Culchies can't do.. # # Ack.

Great thread, great fun, thanks, all! #Never mind me, now, back to the topic...

stv

[fiddle5]

I've played with a number of guitar players ( being that I'm not that good on a guitar), and yes, sometimes it seems to be monotonous for a few of them. Old timey and traditional stuff can be a bit boring for them only doing back up, where as BG seems to be more of a musicians music, everyone gets thier minute of fame and solos. I suppose every musician has thier aspirations of fame and spotlight, but I think its more realistic to look for players ( not just guitar) who love the music for what it is. My number one guitar player can't be there for every occasion, but when he's there, he's there with a purpose. He doesn't even care if there are beginners in the jam. He's there for the love of the music, even though he can't be there everytime.

All in all, I'm happy with the guitar players that jam ( or gig, or charity) with me.

Just an additional comment: It kind of bothers me the way people are making negative generalizations about musicians because of the instrument(s) that they play. Maybe they can pick on visable minorities next when this post is done?? Of course there are always individuals on every forum that feel they are God's gift to music above every one else. These people need to get over themselves. I don't claim to be a top performer, but if I had to listen to that kind of belly-aching, I wouldn't show up anymore either, its no wonder they're losing thier players. I think these people should re-consider who isn't the team player.

However, in the content of the origonal post, I do agree that playing accompaniment may not be exciting or challenging for every instrument, whether guitar, piano, bass, ect. I'm happy to have who ever shows up to play.

[don richards]

"Nobody Wants to Play Rhythm Guitar Behind Jesus - Everybody Wants to be ...the STAR" (an early composition from the pen of Tom T. Hall - aannnnnd quite the truth IMHO....) - Moose-the-wannabe-rhythm player..hee... hee..) http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Narayan Kersak]

As a guitarist since I was 9 currently playing in a Led Zep Tribute and a mandolin player since about last year, currently playing in an Irish group...it depends on the scene. #I never really jived with the old time musicians on guitar, because everytime I flat picked, they just stared at me as though I had hit a woman really hard. #I took up mandolin so I could have more fun than just chording...however, I found in the irish group I'm in, they are very supportive of my flat picking...so I play more and show up often with my guitar and mandolin. #I admit many guitarists have attitudes, but so have other musicians I've played with. #Sometimes I (as the guitar player) jive with the group, sometimes I don't. When I jive, I hang around and play well, when I don't I turn up my amp until they tell me to leave... : ) #Just kidding...If I don't jive I go back to playing mandolin with my irish group. #; P

[Rufus]

As a guitarist who also plays the mandolin, I'd guess part of the issue is that many guitarists are used to being the primary soloist in a band and somewhat the center of attention behind the singer. That's not really the case in bands that have mandolins, banjos, fiddles, etc.; guitarists are more backup players in that setting and that can get boring if the chord progressions are fairly basic. A guitarist who spent many years perfecting his or her fingerstyle chops isn't going to be too satisfied with pounding away on the cowboy chords most of the night. Also, many guitarists (myself included), are not particularly well-versed in the bluegrass soloing style, which makes trying to trade licks with other acoustic musicians pretty hard.

just replace the guitar with one of those monkeys that turns that crank box thing.

dont let anybody tell you that aint bluegrass!
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[sgarrity]

Well I play guitar and mando. #And I enjoy playing both backup and lead. #But I'm about to the point that I'm not going to take my guitar to most of the jams anymore because people tend to not understand jam dynamics. #Just 'cuz the fiddle (or penny whistle) is a melody instrument doesn't mean you get to play ALL the time.

Shaun

(I guess I should include that a lot of our jams are pretty open when it comes to genre. Just as long as its an acoustic instrument.)

[Narayan Kersak]

Just 'cuz the fiddle (or penny whistle) is a melody instrument doesn't mean you get to play ALL the time.

Shaun
Really? More people need to be aware of that if it is in fact true. ; )

[Paul Kotapish]

James Brown used to audition guitarists for the Blue Flames with two questions.

"Can you play an Eb7?"
"Can you play it for three hours?"

Good rhythm guitar playing is an art that requires a very rare combination of skills. It demands strength, endurance, an unceasing fascination with the precise location of the downbeat, and an eagerness to ferrett out the most elegant and precise support for a melody, even if that support comprises just one chord. Great rhythm guitarists are all about refinement and detail within the scope of whatever idiom they are playing in--bluegrass, old-time, Irish, jazz, rock, blues, whatever.

There are plenty of wonderful guitarists around who aspire to superb accompaniment and no more, but they are probably a bit rarer than those who really dream of leading the action. Some of the best rhythm guitarists are those who could dazzle but choose not to. One of my favorite Tony Rice guitar recordings is that classic duet album with Ricky Skaggs. He does little more than play I, IV, and V chords, but my goodness, doesn't he do it beautifully?

[Fretbear]

Good one, Paul. I was waiting for someone to mention Anthony Rice, as he is known as much for his pride in playing perfect accompaniment (by those who follow him) as for his staggering lead playing. He says it is more challenging than playing lead. Playing lead makes you appreciate the skill of the guitar man. I think alot of guitar players take little or no pride in the extremely high art of refined rhythm guitar playing, and because of this always "want to play lead" regardless of their ability, or the effect on the number. Guitarists may be a dime a dozen, but a solid flat-top man is one in a million. If you are lucky enough to have one, be nice to him.

[JeffD]

It kind of bothers me the way people are making negative generalizations about musicians because of the instrument(s) that they play.
I know what you mean, and my comments are somewhat tongue in cheek. And I certainly intend no offense.

Generalizations are dangerous in that they ignore the individual. There are exceptions to every generalization, banjo players who do not drool, etc. I know that, I think we all know that. I don't think anyone here intends offense.

At the same time generalizations can be funny because there is a bit of truth to them - something we all see and know and perhaps don't admit. We all know there are group tendencies - even though its politically incorrect to point them out - Yes everyone is an individual, but yes also everyone falls to some extent into various rolls - mandolin player, parent, male, female, different races, different ages, different income levels, urban, rural, whatever - and it is dishonest to pretend that there aren't any group characteristics. I think it healthier to say so - as long as we earnestly try not to offend, and do our satire with love, and be open to experiencing people as more than their roll - enjoy them for who they are more than what they are.

A friend of mine says there need only be two laws - law number one: don't bother anyone. Law number two, which is equally important: don't be too easily bothered.

All that being said, I am heartily sorry if I have offended anyone - and assure you it was not intentional but entirely due to my tendency to be the south end of a north bound horse.

Jeff

[Peter Hackman]

Guitar owners may be "a dime a dozen", but a good bluegrass guitar player (I don't consider "up-the-neck" stuff to be the measure of this) is one-in-a-dozen, in my experience.
Good, inventive, guitar playing, both solo and accompaniment, requires a solid foundation and understanding of the guitar, and a complete command of
the fretboard, up and down. If you're prepared to capo 4th to
play in B you should be prepared to use that range (and below)
in any key .

As for soloing, even at the 15th fret you're not even past
1st position on mando.

[Chad Thorne]

Because we are:

a) a dime-a-dozen
b) secretly harbor dreams of being diva rock stars
Secretly? #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

- Chad, guitarist (and mandolin player) and diva-rock-star in training

[dmamlep]

Well I am sorry if I misled anyone, this is a bluegrass band. and I guess I should just say that its hard to find a guitar player that is committed enough to stay, with all the practice, playing two, three times a week, recording and all. and might I add that it probally would be easier if it was a paid gig, that being said, dont get to tough on me, because if you check with most bluegrass bands out there they dont make money, even most of the ones you hear on xm or other radio all day, unless you are Doyle Lawson, Blue Highway, mountian Heart, and Ralph, then you are doing it for the love of it. like someone says on here real bluegrass players have day jobs.

[MikeEdgerton]

I won't prostitute my art by taking money for it.....

Some people play golf, some people play music. I play out at least once a week. I make enough in a year to cover the cost of strings and the occasional piece of equipment. I'll never make enough to cover the cost of my instruments. I know that for a fact because I don't want to work that hard. It's a hobby, I already have a job. I'd say the vast majority of the folks on this forum don't make any sizable portion of their yearly income playing music.

[250sc]

dmamlep,

Thanks for the clearification. I understand why it would be "hard to find a guitar player that is committed enough to stay, with all the practice, playing two, three times a week, recording and all."

I guess your lucky to have found anyone who can make that commitment in today's busy society. Can I asume you have found a mandolin, banjo and bass player who are willing to make that commitment?

[Martin Jonas]

Good rhythm guitar playing is an art that requires a very rare combination of skills. It demands strength, endurance, an unceasing fascination with the precise location of the downbeat, and an eagerness to ferrett out the most elegant and precise support for a melody, even if that support comprises just one chord. Great rhythm guitarists are all about refinement and detail within the scope of whatever idiom they are playing in--bluegrass, old-time, Irish, jazz, rock, blues, whatever.

There are plenty of wonderful guitarists around who aspire to superb accompaniment and no more, but they are probably a bit rarer than those who really dream of leading the action. Some of the best rhythm guitarists are those who could dazzle but choose not to.
My favourite in this category is without doubt Simon Nicol of Fairport Convention. He made an amazing contribution to the sound of the band, but every single other member of the classic Fairport line-ups gets more critical attention than Simon.

Martin

[mandoplyr70]

once went to a jam where there were 27 people of these 17 were guitar players!! there are just too many guitars players period for goodness sake learn some other instrument even if its a Ukelele !!

[mandocrucian]

My favourite in this category is without doubt Simon Nicol of Fairport Convention. #He made an amazing contribution to the sound of the band, but every single other member of the classic Fairport line-ups gets more critical attention than Simon.


Simon did some nice playing on the duo albums he made with Swarb. He's played some Thompsonesque solos of some of the Fairport albums, (and Steve Ashley's Family Album almost meets the requirements as an FC, with Ashley backed by Peggy, Simon, Bruce Rowland and Chris Leslie).

I personally have a philosophical problem with the strict lead guitarist/rhythm guitarist assignment of function within far too many groups. Seems to be an ego issue of the lead guirarists that they take all the solos, although you could have the real life case of "Guitar George, he knows all the chords...it's strictly rhythm he doesn't want to make it cry or sing" (from "Sultans of Swing"). Obviiously, there will probably be be superior lead player, but that shouldn't prohibit the "rhythm guitarist" from getting to take some leads as well. Maybe it's only it's only 25-33% of the time compared to the acknowledged lead guy, but multiple soloist enhance the overall sound, imo. I think Simon should have gotten to play a few choruses on "Sloth" even if you've got RT and Swarb really nailing things.

I prefer twin (lead) guitar outfits: Quicksilver Messenger Service (Cippolina/Duncan), Man, (the PeterGreen/Kirwan/Spencer lineup of) Fleetwood Mac, Wishbone Ash, Allman Brothers, Bonnie Raitt Band. Garcia should haven't been such a solohog and let Weir do more. (Same can be said about Nigel and David St Hubbins too!)

From what I've hear some people say, the other("rhythm") guitar player in Aerosmith can play rings around Joe Perry. Wonder how well Malcolm Young (Angus' brother) can actually solo?

Niles H

[250sc]

Good points Niles.

The bottom line is, if you're going to keep people interested in working with you they have to be getting something out of it too. I asume the people Niles points out are makeing a decent amount of money so they don't mind taking a back seat. Besides, it's fun to play with great players even if you don't get to play everything your capable of playing. I play with people who I just like to play with so it's worth it to me but if they decided that they wouldn't play any of the music I liked or they wanted me to commit more time and energy than I thought I could, I'd be gone no matter what instrument I was playing.

Working with others is always a compromise, and you have to make sure everyone is on the same page and is getting something satisfying out of it.

[Peter Hackman]

One guitarist who has really created an inventive role for himself
is Roger Tallroth of Väsen. Another would be Eldon Shamblin on some of these
Bob Wills records. Their respective conceptions could be an inspiration
to guitarists in any idiom, provided they play with open-minded
people who are not intent on defending their misconception of
a tradition.

[Peter Hackman]

I've played with a number of guitar players ( being that I'm not that good on a guitar), and yes, sometimes it seems to be monotonous for a few of them. Old timey and traditional stuff can be a bit boring for them only doing back up, where as BG seems to be more of a musicians music, everyone gets thier minute of fame and solos. I suppose every musician has thier aspirations of fame and spotlight, but I think its more realistic to look for players ( not just guitar) who love the music for what it is. My number one guitar player can't be there for every occasion, but when he's there, he's there with a purpose. He doesn't even care if there are beginners in the jam. He's there for the love of the music, even though he can't be there everytime.

All in all, I'm happy with the guitar players that jam ( or gig, or charity) with me.

Just an additional comment: It kind of bothers me the way people are making negative generalizations about musicians because of the instrument(s) that they play. Maybe they can pick on visable minorities next when this post is done?? Of course there are always individuals on every forum that feel they are God's gift to music above every one else. These people need to get over themselves. I don't claim to be a top performer, but if I had to listen to that kind of belly-aching, I wouldn't show up anymore either, its no wonder they're losing thier players. I think these people should re-consider who isn't the team player.

However, in the content of the origonal post, I do agree that playing accompaniment may not be exciting or challenging for every instrument, whether guitar, piano, bass, ect. I'm happy to have who ever shows up to play.
I believe the original poster was into Bluegrass. In the old days the
guitarist was usually also the lead singer, an indisputably important role.
Often these singers were content to strum chords interspersed with short connecting runs.

If, as in the OP:s group, guitarists come and go, I suppose they are guitarists
and very little else. I can understand they would get a bit weary
with the sameness of chording out of G or C forms (transposed
with the aid of a capo). Of course, you create your role yourself,
if encouraged to do so. In the BG forum I've encountered extremely
limiting view on the role of the guitar or a newcomer in a band.
Not saying that is the case here, only suggesting that the band
members be clear about their expectations.

As for Oldtime, I've heard Gid Tanner records where the guitarist
(Riley Puckett) supplied bass notes and runs in wildly unpredictable
patterns, and with very odd accents.
In the OT forum there was a link to a recording of
Snow Deer with very artful guitar accompaniment. Backup guitar to Texas fiddling is definitely a delicate craft, etc. A little cross-fertilization wouldn't be out of the way, but it seems these silly labels tend to erect walls
between related traditions.

[mandocrucian]

One guitarist who has really created an inventive role for himself
is Roger Tallroth of Väsen.

Absolutely!

<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>I wrote three features/interviews for Acoustic Guitar (John Cephas - cover), Martin Carthy - cover, and Beausoleil's David Doucet) and tried to pitch AG on my doing a feature/interview on Tallroth because his approach was so unique, but that was received with a total lack of interest.</span>

Photo (L-R): Tallroth, NH, Mikael Marin. Kaustinen, Finland 96.

NH

[catmandu2]

I'm surprised to hear guitar players described as divas.
Or, to put it another way, the guitar (in modern culture) is the ultimate diletante instrument.

My first post was, of course, intended with sarcasm. But with a bit of seriousness: since the guitar functions as the rhythmic foundation, like the bass, it should be the most stable and reliable piece of the ensemble. If this is extended to the emotional component, all the better. If a guitarist isn't interested in this, what are they doing playing the guitar? (this group, I would venture to say, probably comprises the diletante type of player).

[catmandu2]

I guess AG is more interested in featuring the "Esteban" than Roger Tallroth. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[JeffD]

once went to a jam where there were 27 people of these 17 were guitar players!! there are just too many guitars players #period for goodness sake learn some other instrument even if its a Ukelele #!!
I have been to some monster sessions in Scotland and Ireland, and out of say 20 musicians, 10 would be playing bodhran!

[dmamlep]

Ok, well we do have mandolin, banjo and bass, and would like to have two guitars, so when and we do let them take breaks it keeps the sound flowing. In my area I guess there just arent many that want to make that type of commitment. one guy just didnt show up for two gigs in same day, some think they are just too good, and the rest of us are 110% committed, since day one. but I guess if we keep playing we will hopefully get someone as committed as we are. thanks to all for their imput. we were into our 3rd cd when last one quit, but to his behalf. he pastors two churches, works day job and goes to school.