Help please.

[PCT57]

I am new to mandolins and I am trying to understand the instrument.

Through this forum and others I am aware of the probable differences between ‘F’ and ‘A’ types as well as f holes and oval holes.

However I have noticed other differences that don’t seem to be discussed very often. What I need some help on is the differences between:

1) #Carved back/tops against flat back/tops.

2) #Maple back/sides against mahogany and rosewood back/sides.

3) #Fixed bridge (like flat top guitars) against normal tailpieces.

I realise some of this is subjective but any opinions and views would help.

Hope you can help.

[Soupy1957]

Not being a lifelong mandolin player, but a relative rookie such as yourself, I can't really take each one individually, but I WOULD say, that right now, as a beginner, you'd be wise to simply:

1) Stay within your budget
2) Ensure that the one you buy is "playable"
3) Find a local group of folks you can learn from
and with, so that you can get some instant
feedback.

-Soupy1957

[Lefty&French]

3) #Fixed bridge (like flat top guitars) against normal tailpieces.

Mandolins (A or F or bowlback) are in the same category as violins, banjos or arch top guitars : Tailpiece with endpin button, and movable bridge.
Avoid "normal" when you're talking about music instruments! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[John Flynn]

1) #A carved top will tend to provide significantly more volume and a more complex tone that many people prefer. This is somewhat of a generalization, however. Some of the better flat-tops will outshine some of the cheaper arch-tops.

2) #Maple is usually used for carved back applications, it would seem for two reasons. First, it lends itself to a powerful, projective sound and second, it can have great figures in the wood, such a "flames" and "quilts" that look really cool. Rosewood is more often used for flat tops and also produces a powerful sound with a lot of bass. Mahogany is also more often used on flat tops and has a "drier" sound accentuating the mid-range.

3) #I once corresponded with a luthier who used to make mandos with fixed bridges on flat tops. I can tell you, those instruments sounded great! But he finally abandoned the concept. He told me that they don't work well on mandolins because of the high string tension relative to the scale length. That causes structural issues that often lead to major repairs down the road. He said pin-through bridges do work well for longer scale instruments like guitars and octave mandolins. Floating bridges generally work best for mandos. Still, you can find some mandos that have them, like the Ovation line.

[Bob DeVellis]

1) Carved back/tops against flat back/tops.

2) Maple back/sides against mahogany and rosewood back/sides.

3) Fixed bridge (like flat top guitars) against normal tailpieces.


Here's my take on your three questions:

There are two general ways to assemble mandolins.

One involves carving the top and/or backplates to a domed shape. This produces a convex surface without stressing the wood. The convex top, because it's an arch, is a very strong bearing sruface for the bridge and, consequently, the instrument can be strung at higher tension. Often, carved-top instruments have the neck set back at an angle with the fingerboard elevated above the surface of the top. This construction allows for a sharper "break angle" of the strings as they pass over the bridge (i.e., the strings are less parallel to the top and form a sharper angle fore and aft of the bridge). Again, the result is more downward pressure on the top which, if the instrument is properly designed, can accommodate greater volume and responsiveness.

The other construction method does not involve carving the top. The instrument may be assembled with the top and back left dead flat. Alternatively, an initially flat piece of wood may gain strength either by being forced into a shallow dome shape by being clamped to curved braces or may be creased laterally. The creased top, often referred to as a canted top, is common on bowlback mandolins and on early 20th century flat-back mandolins such as Martins. The "induced curve" tops and backs are often used on larger members of the mandolin family, such as octave mandolins. But any method can be used on any size mandolin. The idea of inducing an arch or cant into the top is, once again, to increase the top's ability to withstand substantial downward pressure from the strings, thus allowing the instrument to be strung more tautly and to increase its volume. Proper construction is necessary for this arrangement to work successfully.

Maple backs and sides are believed to produce a brighter tone than mahogany, which is a softer wood. Although this may be true to a degree, the construction and materials work together to determine the tone of an instrument. Thus, materials alone are not a guarantee of a particular sound. In general, however, mahogany will tend to have a warmer, mellower tone while maple has more clarity and brilliance. Neither is inherently better than the other. It's a matter of personal preference.

Fixed bridges are most likely to be used on flat-topped instruments that are more guitar-like in their construction. A carved or induced arch is a dynamic structure. String tension and ambient humidity will cause the arch to rise and fall by a small amount under different conditions. These changes affect the intonation of the instrument and bridge location adjustments may be necessary to correct this. A fixed bridge would make this difficult at best whereas a floating bridge (i.e.,one held in place only be string tension) can accommodate the necessary changes with relative ease. Mandolins were among the first instruments in wide use to have metal strings. Attaching those strings to a tailpiece at the end of the instrument avoided the instrument collapsing. This arrangement lent itself to a floating bridge arrangement and may also play a part in their common use on mandolins. A floating bridge moves the top primarily in an up-and-down direction. In contrast, a fixed guitar-style bridge moves the top primarily in a rotational direction, pulling the bridge's front edge forward and down, then releasing tension so that the back edge moves backward and down. The bridge rotates along its long axis. Instruments with fixed vs floating bridges, therefore, must be constructed differently to capitalize on the type of soundboard excitation the different bridges produce. Different families of instruments have evolved different construction types and seem to have characteristic sounds as a result. There are plenty of exceptions, however, such as mandolins with fixed bridges like guitars and arch-top guitars with floating bridges. These alternative types usually have a sound that's distinct from their more orthodox brethren, however.

Others may have a different take on these issues or may elaborate or correct what I've said. But hopefully this will get the discussion rolling.

[JEStanek]

You can hear them here (http://www.folkofthewood.com/page2518.htm) at the Folk of the Wood Video Sampler page. The Mid Mo models are flat tops/backs with varying tone woods. I love the M-11 all mahog one myself. Listen to the different Webers for Arch top mandos with ff or oval holes. The folks above gave excellent descriptions of differences at the link I gave you can hear some...

Jamie

[PseudoCelt]

Here's a link to a recent thread on flat vs. carved tops (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=13;t=41738). I think Brian Dean's (OldTymer) post sums up the difference best. I wasn't sure I agreed with him, but I went and listened to the difference between my flat- and carved-top mandolins, and he's quite correct.

As well as carved top/back and flat top/back, there are also carved top/flat back mandolins. I think these tend to be more common in the UK & Ireland than the US (Stefan Sobell and Paul Shippey are the two makers of this type that immediately spring to mind). They have a slightly different sound again compared to the other two types of mandolin, which suits Irish and Scottish music very well. They often have rosewood backs.

Fixed bridges are often said to give a bit more sustain than floating ("normal") bridges.

Patrick

[mandroid]

You left out bowl back classical neopolitan mandolins, Lute origins , then Mr Martin kept the peakacross the top,
and made the body a bit wider with a flattened back, mixing in guitar building themes, some carved top guitars with flat backs ..
then Orville Gibson went to the violin side of the building history and like violins carved the top and backs.