Your favorite irish builders?

[Jim MacDaniel]

Our ten year anniversary is coming up, and my wife asked me if there was "anything expensive" that I have been wanting -- a very dangerous question to ask any musician, amateur or otherwise (that's like asking me me asking her if she wants any new jewelry -- which actually is what started this discussion in the first place ;)

She loathes the idea of mandolin shopping in general, but since we honeymooned in Ireland, I thought "what better way to get her engaged in buying me a mandolin than working with a builder in Ireland?" http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I've heard a lot of nice things about Joe Foley's and Paul Doyle's instruments, but have never played either, nor do I know much about any other builders in Ireland. #I tend to favor a wide, radiused fretboard, and an open complex sound with good balance accross all courses for solo playing, but also need good volume and projection for sessions. Who are your favorite Irish mandolin builders, and what about their mandolins do you like -- esp. from sound and playability points of view, but including aesthetics as well?

[mandopete]

Favorite Irish builder? That's easy - Guiness!

[Jim MacDaniel]

There's an idea for the finish: cream top on a dark body.

[Steve L]

If my wife were offering me my choice of a luthier built instrument from that part of the world, I'd be on the phone with Stefan Sobell in a heartbeat. He's in England, not Ireland but he's arguably the father of the "Irish" mando family sound in many ways.

[steve V. johnson]

A good pal of mine has a Joe Foley that's cedar over rosewood. #He got it from AcousticMusic.org, and at the time they had two, the other was spruce over rosewood. #

I don't see my friend and the Foley often, but when I do he lets me play the Foley. #It's splendid. #The shape and size are very similar (that 'Euro-look') to the Sobells. #I don't think that this one has a radiused fretboard. #It has no problem whatsoever being heard in a rompin' session.

I've heard a some anecdotal comments about Paul Doyle's instruments, but I've never been in the room with one, and have only seen a couple of pictures...

Maybe you should ask George Lowden if he'd build you a mandolin? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Any excuse to go back to Ireland will do just fine...

Congrats,

stv

[Fliss]

If I had free choice and money were no object, I'd certainly want to consider Stefan Sobell. #

Sorry this doesn't help on the subject of Irish builders, but if you are flexible on location, another English builder I'd recommend considering is Phil Davidson. #I've just bought one of his flat tops, the new style with a lengthways oval soundhole, and it has exactly the sound you describe, plus lots of sustain, and it has a radiused fretboard. #It's very comfortable to play, and very responsive. #Here's a link to his website if you're interested (the Art Deco Celtic is real eye candy!!) #http://www.davidsoninstruments.com/

Sorry, nearly forgot to say, congrats on the upcoming anniversary #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Fliss

[allenhopkins]

Here's a link (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=16;t=42756) to a CBOM forum thread that, in turn, links to an Irish TV documentary on "bouzoukis" that includes an interview with Foley.

Hope it's of interest.

[JeffD]

Sobell or Foley for sure.

[groveland]

I tried contacting Sobell by email first when shopping for a cittern - I never did hear from him, so I figured that either (1) he didn't do email or (2) had a 6 year waiting list and was swamped, i.e., not taking orders. He's taking orders?

Peter Abnett, although an English builder makes the definitive 'Irish BouZouki'.
Sobells always sound far to mid/bass orientated for that true Irish sound (IMHO)
DD

[PCypert]

You might put in for a Sobell on your 20th anniversary. Not going to happen this year for sure....won't have it by your 15th I'd reckon.

Does it have to be Irish? And what kind of mando are you wanting...Zouk, Dola, Mandolin?

Paul

[Jim MacDaniel]

Thanks for the feedback all, and to clarify, we are talking about a standard scale mandolin -- not a Dola nor a CBOM.

I'm inquiring about Irish builders, since for my wife to wade into unknown waters (to her) and work with a builder to commission a mandolin for me, it must have some sort of emotional hook for her (aside from it being something her dear husband wants ;). Since we both have family ties to Ireland, and since we honeymooned there 10 years ago, that hook is working with a builder in Ireland. No slight is intended to any builders from the UK or elsewhere, and as a matter of fact, plan B may involve buying a Jimmy Moon off the wall from Gryphon, or looking for a Fylde Touchstone in stock somewhere stateside. (I'm still working on plan C, but it probably will involve me constantly sending my web-averse wife links to eBay auctions, MC classifieds, and on-line retailers' web sites. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif )

[Jim MacDaniel]

Sorry this doesn't help on the subject of Irish builders, but if you are flexible on location, another English builder I'd recommend considering is Phil Davidson. #I've just bought one of his flat tops, the new style with a lengthways oval soundhole, and it has exactly the sound you describe, plus lots of sustain, and it has a radiused fretboard. #It's very comfortable to play, and very responsive. #Here's a link to his website if you're interested (the Art Deco Celtic is real eye candy!!) #http://www.davidsoninstruments.com/

Sorry, nearly forgot to say, congrats on the upcoming anniversary #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Fliss
Thank you Fliss. Is your Davidson the "Carved Celtic A Type"? That's a real looker, and from your review it sounds like a great option. (I'm guessing your Garrison isn't getting much playing time as of late? ;)

[Jim M.]

How about Graham McDonald?
http://www.mcdonaldstrings.com/

He's in Australia, not Ireland, but the name certainly rings a bell.

[Jim MacDaniel]

How about Graham McDonald?
http://www.mcdonaldstrings.com/

He's in Australia, not Ireland, but the name certainly rings a bell.
Now that is a sharp looking instrument, and it sounds like a good fit. Have you played one Jim?

[Jim M.]

I've played one of his Type II 'zouks, which is sort of guitar-shaped. Really nice instrument, IMHO, with great tone and finish work. I agree that the mandolin is a sharp looking instrument, and I wouldn't have any qualms about buying one based on my experience with his 'zouk.

BTW, there's a recent thread in CBOM about a new McDonald mandola:
Mcdonald 'dola thread (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=16;t=41619;hl=mcdonald)

[Fliss]

Thank you Fliss. Is your Davidson the "Carved Celtic A Type"? That's a real looker, and from your review it sounds like a great option. (I'm guessing your Garrison isn't getting much playing time as of late? ;)
No, mine is the flat top with oval hole, here's a picture (a slightly better one than I posted in the "post a picture of your mandolin" thread #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif # Its beauty is of a more subtle type, but I still love it.

I do prefer an understated look, but I loved that carved Art Deco Celtic and was nearly seduced by it - I visited Phil Davidson' workshop and picked that one up first to try out, and found myself smiling as I played it! #But I liked the tone of the flat top better - it's more complex, whereas the carved top had a cleaner tone somehow. #But both have the same sustain, and both are very sweet. #

The Davidson flat top does have a very slight arch to the top and back, which you can see on the photos on his site. #

I have to say, my Garrison is still a very nice flat top, but the Davidson is (IMHO!) a bit special.

Fliss

[Mandovark]

I'm inquiring about Irish builders, since for my wife to wade into unknown waters (to her) and work with a builder to commission a mandolin for me, it must have some sort of emotional hook for her (aside from it being something her dear husband wants ;). Since we both have family ties to Ireland, and since we honeymooned there 10 years ago, that hook is working with a builder in Ireland. No slight is intended to any builders from the UK or elsewhere, and as a matter of fact, plan B may involve buying a Jimmy Moon off the wall from Gryphon, or looking for a Fylde Touchstone in stock somewhere stateside. (I'm still working on plan C, but it probably will involve me constantly sending my web-averse wife links to eBay auctions, MC classifieds, and on-line retailers' web sites. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif )

Can't help with Irish builders, but I have had the chance to A/B/C two Moons (standard and A+) and a Fylde Touchstone. They have very different feels and tones. The Fylde had a Spruce top and what looked like mahogany back and sides (it's listed as sapele on the website, but this one looked very much like mahogany to me). It's a relatively chunky instrument (though not heavy). To my ears, the tone sounded dull, with very little sparkle in the trebles. I guess I'd call it a woody sound, with nice bass and mids. I couldn't fault the construction and the back and sides wood, whatever it was, looked gorgeous.

The Moons were a different animal. They feel noticably thinner than the Fylde, which has a deeper body. #The tone is brighter (spruce/maple) and my fingers found them more playable than the Fylde, though this is obviously a personal thing. There is certainly a family resemblance between the two Moons that I played, bu the A+ was definitely superior. The e course on the standard sounded a little harsh to me (though in fairness it was only six weeks out of the workshop and might improve with time and playing). The A+ had a sweetness to it that I thought was a little lacking in the standard - it's there, but there isn't as much of it. The A+ also has a gloss finish - satin on the standard - and a Fishman pickup, which is a good thing or not depending on your point of view.

My point really is that the Fyldes and Moons have very different sounds and feels to them - if it does come to your plan B, I'd recommend trying as many as possible before committing.

Happy shopping, and congratulations on the anniversary. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Jim MacDaniel]

Nice looking instrument, Fliss. I too prefer the soundhole configuration on yours, compared the stadard soundhole on the flat-top pictured at his web page. Also, thank you for your firsthand feedback on the two models -- I too favor a more complex tone.

Simon, I've never had an opportunity to play a Touchstone (although it is a lovely instrument), but I really enjoyed the Moon A+ I played -- and that is regularly in stock at a store located near one of my wife's favorite shopping areas. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Fliss]

Thanks for your comments Jim, glad if the feedback's useful.

FWIW, I've tried both Fylde and Moon, and I'd agree with Simon that they are quite different from each other. In particular, the Touchstone has a longer scale length (375mm as opposed to 355) which gives a different feel, it is a physically bigger instrument. I remember a while ago someone posted a link to a soundclip of their Touchstone, so I did a search to see if I can find it in case it's helpful, so here's the link to the thread:

http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin....d+sound (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=5;t=30014;hl=fylde+and+touc hstone+and+sound)

Fliss

[Jim M.]

Used Sobell at Elderly:
Sobell (http://www.elderly.com/vintage/names/STEFAN-SOBELL-MANDOLIN-%28recent%29--90U-4721.htm)

http://elderly.com/images/vintage/90U/90U-4721_front_sm_.jpg


NFI, just trying to feed the MASses

[Jim MacDaniel]

Perfect timing http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I've heard a few Rosewood Sobells, but never a Maple one; anyone out there with firsthand or anecdotal feedback regarding Maple Sobells' tone and volume, compared to the Rosewood? (I assume while a little different, they still sound wonderful ;)

[Jim M.]

There was a used maple Sobell mando discussed briefly a few years ago. Here's the thread:

Maple Sobell (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=5;t=14576;hl=sobell+and+map le)

Oh, BTW, Happy Anniversary! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif What are you getting her?

[Dagger Gordon]

I thought the Sobell at Elderley might be more expensive than that. Doubt if it'll be there long. I'd buy it if I were you, and go to Ireland anyway.

[Bob DeVellis]

I have a small-bodied maple Sobell that is by far my favorite instrument. Its tone is superb and its playability is unbeatable. The latter is a matter of personal preference but I absolutely love the wide, relatively shallow necks on these. The ad refers to a large teardrop body but I think they're referring to the general shape of Sobells. It looks like a small-body to me, although I could be wrong. My at-a-distance eyeball test is to compare the length of the headstock to the body. On smalls, it's roughly the distance from the tailpiece to the lower edge of the sound hole, whereas on larges, it's about the distance from the tailpiece to the bridge. This fits the first case. If I didn't have one so much like it already (mine could be its twin, with identical cosmetic features including the relatively rare blonde headstock veneer and maple binding), I'd be sorely tempted.

Everyone has their favorite type of instrument and one person's diamond is another's lump of coal. For me, these Sobells are as good as it gets. I've occasionally been let down by the experience of playing some high-end mandolins but I've loved every Sobell I've ever encountered.

The truss rod worries me a bit, as it implies the neck hasn't been stable and if problems continue, there's nowhere to go, but I trust Elderly's judgment that in its present extreme setting it's playable. I might want to know exactly how high the action is, as I like these instruments set quite low and the trussrod may preclude that if it's tight and a bit too much relief is still present. The replacement tuner (an easy fix) and finish checking also suggest that it's had a somewhat challenging existence but the price seems to reflect those shortcomings and they're not a huge deal.

[Jim MacDaniel]

Thanks for the lead and the tips on the Sobell, gang. I am awaiting Elderly's response to my questions, before I forward the link on to my wife as a not so subtle hint. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Jim MacDaniel]

Received the following feedback from Joe at Elderly about the Maple Sobell. (note: I asked him if he transposed "46" for "64" in the measurements at the 12th fret, but he said no. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif )

Yes fretboard is radiused. It measures 20"
The neck is straight.
No way of telling if its going to need a neck reset.
The action at the 12th fret is 5/46" on the bass and 4/46" on the treble.
The action at the end of fretboard is 6/64" on the bass side and 6/64" on the treble side.
The frets are in good condition.
No refret need soon.

After speaking with my wife, I think we are going to go with a custom new-build, quite possibly with Foley; but I wanted to provide Elderly's feedback to this thread in case any of you were interested in the Sobell as well.

BTW, Graham McDonald is writing a book on mandolin building over the course of the next several months as be builds three new mandolins; so, if anyone orders a mandolin from him soon, it is quite possible that your mandolin will be featured in the book. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Bob DeVellis]

5/46 is roughly 7/64 or almost 1/8". A tad higher than I prefer but not outrageous.

[PseudoCelt]

I was interested in that Sobell mandolin, so I emailed Stefan himself about it. I asked if he knew when he made it, and if he thought the neck was a problem. Here are the relevant bits of his reply:

"This must be from around the early 1980s. I have to confess, I have no recollection of building it. If I hadn't seen the photos, I'd have said I didn't build a mandolin like this after one or two in the 1970s. But it's clearly mine.

I'm also surprised at the 'maximum adjustment' of the truss rod. Do they think this because they can slacken it but not tighten, or is it in fact seized, as can happen if instruments are kept in damp conditions. It's my experience that because of the relatively short neck, mandolin necks hardly pull up. If this neck is straight now, I'd expect it to stay straight, but I understand your concern. If the truss rod is indeed seized, replacing it is a big job. If it's at maximum tension, it could be slackened and the neck straightened and re-fretted, not so big a job. But big enough."

He also said he is not currently taking orders for mandolin family instruments, due to his long waiting list.

Patrick

[PseudoCelt]

More info on the Sobell for anyone who is interested, this time from Elderly. The truss rod is maxed out, but is definitely not seized.

Patrick

[Mandovark]

Well, in an unexpected development...

A couple of weeks after my last post, I went back to the same shop and tried out another Fylde Touchstone against the same Moon A+. I was expecting to come home with the Moon, but felt like I should try out a few others as a matter of form. The Moon still sounded good, particularly in the trebles, but this Fylde had a rich bass and a fantastic tone that I hadn't found in the other one. The upshot of it all is that I am now the proud owner of a Fylde Touchstone (and this one is definitely sapele!).

[PseudoCelt]

I've probably played more than 10 Touchstone mandolins. All but one were excellent instruments, and the less-good one may not have been set up right. The sound from Fylde instruments is generally very consistent. IMO, the standard Touchstone sounds as good or better than the more fancy/expensive "Signature" version (though I've only played one Signature).

2 or 3 of the Touchstones I've played had custom cedar tops. These have a slightly richer bass than the standard, while the trebles are very similar. They look fantastic too.

I like Moons too, though I have less experience of them. I'd like the A+ more if they didn't have that odd-looking point on the side.

Patrick

[Mandovark]

That's interesting. I've never played a Signature Touchstone and I was wondering how much difference the rosewood would make.

Having thought a little more about the differences between the Fyldes and Moons, I'd say that the Moon sounds like an attempt to make a flat-top, oval hole instrument with a bluegrass sound (which would make sense, because Jimmy himself is a bluegrass player). The Fylde is definitely a folk instrument with a more "traditional" flat-top sound.

[PseudoCelt]

That's interesting. I've never played a Signature Touchstone and I was wondering how much difference the rosewood would make.
I think the rosewood makes it sound different, just not necessarily better. It's over a year since I played the Sig. model but, IIRC I think my impression was that the mahogany/sapele gave a warmer sound, but perhaps the rosewood might cut through better in a session.

My opinion of the Signature Touchstone may have been coloured slightly as I had just got a immaculate second-hand carved spruce/rosewood Shippey mandolin with an equally immaculate Calton case, for about the same money as the Fylde. This made it seem a little expensive. I had also got the carved top sound into my head, so it's likely that my mental reference had changed. I'm not knocking the Signatures, they are still good-sounding mandolins.

I think you're right about Fyldes vs. Moons. Fylde seem to be aiming towards a more Sobell-like sound, while Moons are perhaps a little more "American"-sounding.

Patrick

[Davetnova]

I've owned a Moon A for a few years and having played and listned to to several Fyldes I must admit that much as I love my Moon if I had the choice I would go for a Touchstone,

[mrmando]

Jimmy Moon is from Glasgow, so he's out if we're limiting this to Irish builders.

Unlike everyone else on the planet, apparently, I have been to Paul Doyle's shop in Galway, twice, and played whatever he had sitting around. I think Paul's work is uniformly excellent and you can't go wrong with one of his instruments.

[acumando]

A good pal of mine has a Joe Foley that's cedar over rosewood. #He got it from AcousticMusic.org, and at the time they had two, the other was spruce over rosewood. #
the spruce one may now be mine; at the time i bought it there was also one in cedar at acousticmusic.org

anyway, it is a splendid piece and i do enjoy it:
http://jabinet.net/grafx/fol2.JPG
http://jabinet.net/grafx/fol4.JPG

[Jim MacDaniel]

That's a beauty Acumando - congrats!


Update on the anniversary gift: we ended up forgoing jewelry for my wife and a mando for me this year, and instead are travelling to Greece and Croatia for three weeks. A fair trade off I suppose -- but I do have a birthday coming up. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[steve V. johnson]

Hey Jim,

IMO, travel is always more fun that an object, but honestly, it's often a terribly difficult choice.

Have a great time on your travels!!

And besti wishes for the upcoming birthday. May you have many more!

stv

[Jim MacDaniel]

...And besti wishes for the upcoming birthday. #May you have many more!
By that you mean, many more mandolins, correct?

[Mandobar]

jim,

there is a sobell octave at acousticmusic.org. call brian and see what else he has up his sleeve ;-) he is sobell's only US dealer and has owned a lot of sobells.
donal clancy of the band danu is also a client there.


or you can do what john doyle did and contact bob abrahms at trillium (octavemandolin.com)

he's made a lot of instrument for irish players (worth a try)

[EMS]

That Foley is lovely--the echoes of a fado guitar, especially. (Something about the headstock & the body shape say "fado" to me.)

I'm actually going to be near Galway next summer. Any sense of the price or the wait for a Foley? I was planning to buy something next week, but if I save for a year, I could have a tidy kitty set aside--in dollars, alas, & not in Euros!