Moving up a four-finger "a"

[Soupy1957]

I will often default to using the "1412910" D-Chord, when I'm in the Key of A, and I was just wondering when is the best time to choose that pattern as opposed to 7405 or just 2002.

I know you are tempted to say "whatever works" but I was just wondering if there is a rule of thumb for choosing? Personal preference? Habit?

Obviously this would apply to any chord structure alternatives, so maybe this is really a question about proper "blending" techniques..

-Soupy1957

[Peter Hackman]

2002 with its open strings sounds like a very "folksy" chord, useful
whenever you want some special kind of drone effect.
That other form,
with an octave on top, is something I would never use.
And just shifting the A chop one fourth up is again a somewhat special effect.

I would work out of forms like 245* and 779* and explore ways of connecting them to various A and E(7) forms.

[mythicfish]

A succession of chords is often referred to as "changes"
Personally, I prefer to avoid "make-overs"

Curt

[jmcgann]

This is known as 'chord voicing'- A D chord is a D chord no matter how it is voiced- yet they all sound different, due to the arrangement of the notes.

In a triad (that's three notes) y'all can have any of the 3 notes in the bass, so D F# A are your notes. We number them 1 3 5. The root in the bass is root position, the 3rd in the bass is called 1st inversion, the 5th in the bass 2nd inversion. Each has a unique character.

When the notes can be played in a row aplhabetically (i.e. DF#A) it's called 'close position'. When you take the middle note and raise it an octave (DAF#) it's called a 'spread voicing' since the notes are spread out. This is the usual scheme for mando chord voicings.

AF#D (245x) 5th in the bass (2nd inversion)
DF#A (740x) Root position, 'close voicing' (the notes are in order as they are spelled- not easy to do in many keys on mando)
DAF# (779x or x002)
F#DA* (x455) 3rd in the bass (1st inversion)

The more of them you know and explore, the more choices you have. When you practice progressions and get into making smooth connections ('voice leading') you also learn an awful lot about soloing- since those chord tones are your strongest melody notes (well, safest anyway!)

Since there are 4 strings, 4 note chords double certain notes at the octave. Some sound better than others (chord books often show theoretically correct but weak sounding voicings).

Take all the F#'s above, lower them to F (one fret) and you gotcha minah cahhds (Bawstin tawkin thayuh!) #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

*Thanks Sweet Pete, I need more http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[John Flynn]

Personally, I would almost never use a "1412910" pattern. While technically correct, IMHO it is too high to serve the purpose that chords generally need to serve in a piece of music. It might have an occasional use as a special effect. I do 2002 when accompanying old-time music and I strum up near the 14th fret to bring out the most bass. In bluegrass, my chop is usually 745X, although I will do 7452 if I want more treble, or 2452 if I want more bass.

While all closed chord forms are moveable, practically on the mandolin, that is only up to a point. I try to think about the role I am playing in the music at any time. If I am playing rhythm, I can be mainly supporting the melody, or mainly providing the beat. If it is the former, I need more bass and more sustain. If it is the latter, I need to be more in the middle of the neck with all chop chords.

But that's just MHO and just for my playing. Each to one's own.

[Soupy1957]

I'm having such an epiphany over here today, it's almost orgasmic!! I just had a lightbulb go off in my head, as to the repetitive 3-chord changes from the 4-finger major chords to the typical positions for chords 2 & 3 in a typical Bluegrass song.

Hot dang!!! I'm ona roll......(Don't mind me...just freakin out over here!!)

-Soupy1957

[Jim Broyles]

I'm not sure what you mean by chords 2 & 3, but I'm guessing you mean chords IV and V - the other two chords which are major, besides the I, or root, chord. Yes. These are the three chords of a "3-chord" song, which I'm sure you've heard at jams. Caveat - I, (and John McGann,) never use the 7-4-5-2 D chord. We think the doubled 3rd (F#) sounds lame. From your A chop, just lift your fingers and move them up a string, muting, or just not playing the E strings - voila! the D, or IV chord. Move that D up (not down, Anthony) 2 frets, towards the bridge, again, muting or not playing the E strings (even though the note is in the E chord, you don't want an open string ringing out in a chop chord) Eureka! The E or V chord. Would you like to know the reason they are called I, IV and V?

[cooper4205]

G scale


I ii iii IV V vi vii

G - A - B - C - D - E - F#


so a I-IV-V progression would be G-C-D. for the key of G the relative minor would be the vi, or Em.

the chords in the key of G would be G, Am, Bm, C, D, Em, and F#dim (i get confused on the vii's though).

[Peter Hackman]

AF#D (245x) 5th in the bass (2nd inversion)
DF#A (740x) Root position, 'close voicing' (the notes are in order as they are spelled- not easy to do in many keys on mando)
DAF# (779x or x002)
F#AD (x455) 3rd in the bass (1st inversion)
*455 is F#DA, of course

[Soupy1957]

Whoa, whoa,.....all those numbers are makin me dizzy as a worm on a hook!!

Lemme just enjoy my most recent epiphany and I'll get to the rest of those numbers one day....lol.

-Soupy1957

[duuuude]

"Caveat - I, (and John McGann,) never use the 7-4-5-2 D chord. We think the doubled 3rd (F#) sounds lame."

Wouldn't moving your A chop chord up a course result in the same thing?!

[Jim Broyles]

"Caveat - I, (and John McGann,) never use the 7-4-5-2 D chord. We think the doubled 3rd (F#) sounds lame."

Wouldn't moving your A chop chord up a course result in the same thing?!
I don't see how. You don't have a finger left for the top F#, besides which, I explained to mute or just not play the E strings.

[Ken Sager]

I haven't played a seven string mandolin, nor do I have the six fingers necessary to fret and strum a 1412910 chord...

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[jmcgann]

"Caveat - I, (and John McGann,) never use the 7-4-5-2 D chord. We think the doubled 3rd (F#) sounds lame."

Wouldn't moving your A chop chord up a course result in the same thing?!

7452= DF#DF#. There's no 5th in the voicing, just doubled root/third. IMHO it is weak and lame sounding.
I don;t have a 5th course to move the A shape to- do you mean 745 (that's down a course?) That's a good chop chord, not ideal by harmony book standards, but does the job. If you double the 3rd on top all bets are off, though http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Jim Broyles]

"Caveat - I, (and John McGann,) never use the 7-4-5-2 D chord. We think the doubled 3rd (F#) sounds lame."

Wouldn't moving your A chop chord up a course result in the same thing?!

7452= DF#DF#. There's no 5th in the voicing, just doubled root/third. IMHO it is weak and lame sounding.
I don;t have a 5th course to move the A shape to- do you mean 745 (that's down a course?) That's a good chop chord, not ideal by harmony book standards, but does the job. If you double the 3rd on top all bets are off, though http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
John , I would like to use the occasion of your post to ask, and attempt, once and for all, to define directions when moving "over" on the fretboard. Moving higher is up, musically, but moving lower is up numerically. Which is it? ? ? ? ? ? ? I call moving from G chop to C chop moving up a course. Am I wrong?

[jmcgann]

I go by pitch rather than physical direction. "Up the neck" meaning toward the bridge and "down a set of strings" going toward the lower pitched strings.

[Jim Broyles]

Okay, that's good enough for me.

[duuuude]

OK, down a course then, you still end up with the 7-4-5 for D.

And why no thirds on top? If it's augmenting the bass line or following the melody line why would it sound lame? Such as when playing Blue Drag, I walk down the bass notes on top during the 1 & 3 and chunk the 2 & 4 chords, sounds fine to me.

[Jim Broyles]

Duuuude, you aren't listening. It's not about no thirds on top. It's about two roots, two thirds and no fifth. Sounds weak. 7-4-5 for D is fine. That's what I've been saying. What I don't like is the EXTRA third on top, without a fifth. You don't need the highest course for a chop chord anyway. My preference for the V chord in a bluegrass song is 2-4-5-X, which gives you 5th, third, root and works great as a V chord. I don't use this shape as a IV chord. I play plenty of chords with the third on top - 2-0-0-2 and all the movable versions of it, for example.

[Peter Hackman]

Besides, it's awkward; going to the next chord your fingers will be flying all
over the place.

My V chord (in G) would be a-f#-d, or (perhaps more often) a-f#-c (a rootless V7)

[duuuude]

Uh, OK.

[jmcgann]

duuuude- just 'cuz we don't like it doesn't mean you have to dislike it. If it works for you, and you like the sound, don't let us rain on your parade.

Duke Ellington said "if it sounds good, it IS good!" "Good" can be subjective. If your ears say why not, then why not!

[duuuude]

No worries John, I tend to play what fits my ear most times anyway. It just concerns me hearing a chord shape labeled as "lame" when in certain circumstances it's more than appropriate and often the best choice. Not for me, mind you, but more for the other folks who hang on every word typed by one of our many local pros, just don't want them feeling they're doing something wrong by trying something different, which is never wrong.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled program. ;-}

[jmcgann]

just don't want them feeling they're doing something wrong by trying something different, which is never wrong.


Ah well, that one i disagree with. i see lots of people doing things both 'different' and 'wrong', especially when it comes to technique. They are the ones who ask 'why don't i get better? I practice a lot..."

[duuuude]

Well, those weren't the kinda "different" and "wrong" I was refering to, but I think you get my drift. I wasn't referring to technique, just chord voicings in individual situations. Once upon a time, in some circles, it was "wrong" to play a 7th.

[Peter Hackman]

duuuude- just 'cuz we don't like it doesn't mean you have to dislike it. If it works for you, and you like the sound, don't let us rain on your parade.

Duke Ellington said "if it sounds good, it IS good!" "Good" can be subjective. If your ears say why not, then why not!
In order to do what you like you got to listen - there are people who forget about that, learning chords from tables instead of building them from their individual notes and reflecting how the chords interrelate - there have been examples of that in other threads.

One piece of advice that I'd like to give to just any beginner is, look away from
your fingers - you'll hear yourself better. You don't know what you like
or what's good enough for you unless you really hear it.

[Soupy1957]

"Up" the neck and "Down" the neck has been a source of discussion in many forums...

I prefer to move "Up" the neck toward the Bridge, myself! I guess it just depends who your teacher was/is.

-Soupy1957

[AlanN]

sounds fine to me.
Jo Jones threw a cymbal at Bird. Bird said what you said. Get yourself a ToneGuard and go for it http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[jmcgann]

Once upon a time, in some circles, it was "wrong" to play a 7th.

Oh, that time is still here http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Jim Broyles]

Soupy, I was talking about moving over a string. Moving toward the bridge is up, no matter who your teacher is.

[jmcgann]

Moving toward the bridge is up, no matter who your teacher is.

And you rise in pitch as you head up- and lower as you move down. It makes sense to label the physical directions the same. Moving over: down a set of strings= to lower pitches. And vice versa. I think most experienced players would agree to the logic...

[Jim Broyles]

Once upon a time, in some circles, it was "wrong" to play a 7th.

Oh, that time is still here http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Is this true? I have been in "circles" where every V chord had to be a 7th, but I tend to make my V chords in original compositions straight majors, unless it's a blues.

[duuuude]

OK, not to beat a dead horse but I'm curious as to how a sequence would be played.

In the beginning of "It Don't Mean A Thing" there's a Gm, GmM7, Gm7, Gm6 walkdown in the first 4 bars, what would be the better voicing to use for that? I've been starting at 3-5-1 for my Gm (root & doubled flat 3rd) and walking down my D string to cover the M7, m7 & m6, but that puts the flat 3rd on top. Is the a more advantageous shape to cover this? A 3-5-5 voicing would still land the 3rd on top, how could that be avoided, or can it?

[Jim Broyles]

duuuude, the original poster is a bluegrass player, and was asking about bluegrass chop chords. I expressed an opinion, that John McGann has put forth in the past, that the 7-4-5-2 D chop chord does not sound good to us. It is not, I repeat NOT about not liking the third on top. As to your question, I don't like the third in the bass in your progression. I would go 0-5-1-X , 0-4-1-X, etc. If you don't like the droning root bass, and you want the walking bass sound, I would play x-5-5-6, x-4-5-6, x-3-5-6, x-2-5-6. The doubled third, besides being unnecessary to color a chord, just takes up too many of the available notes on a mandolin. Next time you get around a piano, hold down the sustain pedal and play G-D-G-D-G-D-G-D-G-D all the way up the keyboard. When they are are ringing out, play one B around the middle of the keyboard. Do it again using a Bb instead of a B. One third is all it takes to color a chord.

[duuuude]

Yeah, I'm sorry about the thread hijack but was just trying to get some useful information. I should have started a new thread but thought I just had a quick question, didn't know it would turn into a dissertation. I'll go back to just playing what sounds right to me and leave the particulars to all y'all.

[mandolooter]

[QUOTE]I'll go back to just playing what sounds right to me and leave the particulars to all y'all.

That'll work great for ya...hehehe!
How goes it Mike, long time no see or hear?
Jeff

[Peter Hackman]

OK, not to beat a dead horse but I'm curious as to how a sequence would be played.

In the beginning of "It Don't Mean A Thing" there's a Gm, GmM7, Gm7, Gm6 walkdown in the first 4 bars, what would be the better voicing to use for that? I've been starting at 3-5-1 for my Gm (root & doubled flat 3rd) and walking down my D string to cover the M7, m7 & m6, but that puts the flat 3rd on top. Is the a more advantageous shape to cover this? A 3-5-5 voicing would still land the 3rd on top, how could that be avoided, or can it?
There would normally be a bass instrument taking care of that descending
line g ---- e. I would probably devise an ascending counterline to it.

[duuuude]

Thanks Peter.