Tone

[Tom Sanderson]

After reading and posting on the topic of the Tone Guard in the Equipment section, I would like to discuss tone in general. I don't want to talk about things like mando makers, or F vs. A, etc. . I'd like to talk about technique, things that we all can do to get the best tone out of any mando.

[Scotti Adams]

..it helps to know where the "sweet spot" is...there is alot of feeling involved to get good tone also.

[AlanN]

What I try to do to maximize tone:

- Hold pick as loosely as possible
- Find the 'sweet spot'
- Don't shake the mandolin when play
- Minimize tension

Now, Niles will say, and I agree, depending on the sound/feel/vibe you are going for, these points above are all open to tweaking http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[bradeinhorn]

warm up properly, relax while playing, don't push down too hard, don't let right hand open while playing...don't lift your head to look up at the ball...oh wait....

[Jonathan Peck]

Well, when it comes to equipment, a good place to start is is to find an instrument that you can afford that has all the characteristics that you are looking for in your sound. Then you can further tweak your sound by experimenting with different strings and picks. Get it optimally set-up for the way you play, and your way ahead of the game.

In terms of tone production (the player), I think that there are alot of variables. One main thing that might influence your tone could be the players that you are trying to emulate. In turn, this may influence your technique. Are you trying to emulate Monroe or Thile? Also, it would seem that the speed bar has been raised quite a bit too. While 140/280bpm may have been fast in the past, todays players can crank it up to around 180/360bpm

I think that these are the main factors that will affect your technique and ultimately your tone

[picksnbits]

I've been focusing on different spots for different tones lately. I had locked in to playing in "the" sweet spot, which I thought was a perfectly vertical stripe up toward the fret board. Then I figured out that, on my mandolin at least, "the" sweet spot was a bit more toward the bridge on the treble strings. Now I'm learning that it growls back toward the bridge and it purrs up toward the fretboard. So I'm digging in back toward the bridge for hard-driving stuff and tickling her up toward the fretboard for the sweet stuff.

I'm guessing there's similar adjustments to be made in grip and such, but I'm not focusing on those right now.

[devilstone_the_bard]

warm up properly, relax while playing, don't push down too hard, don't let right hand open while playing...don't lift your head to look up at the ball...oh wait....
I'm *definitely* no expert, but I have noticed that I am usually happier with how I sound when I am sitting on the couch watching my son play or something than I am when I sit down and focus intently on what I'm playing in a practice session. I definitely need to get the "relax" part of the equation down. I particularly notice how nice my tremolo is when I am not really trying. As soon as I sit down to record myself for a little self review / critique, it all goes to downhill.

Every once in a while when I stop and ask myself 'wait a minute, who just played that?' I realize things like I am not trying to snap the pick in half with my grip and I am not trying to bend the strings down *into* the fretboard. I feel I am getting a little better trying to relax when I practice, but in front of the mic for me or others, all bets are off and I sound like a soup sandwich.

[Jim Broyles]

My mandolin picks are all pretty stiff, but I get a wide range of tonal response depending on what material the pick I'm using is made of. I mostly use pointed or semi-pointed picks, and my favorite tone is produced by a Dunlop Ultex 1.14 rounded triangle pick. All of the rounded picks, or pick shoulders I have tried produced too dark a tone to suit me. I recently had a credit at my local music store (really a guitar shop) so I decided to try Fender phosphor bronze mandolin strings because they were out of J75's and I wanted .016 A's. Well, these strings are a lot brighter on my mandolin than other strings I have been using , so I actually prefer the tone of the D'Andrea Pro-Plec 1.5mm triangles right now. I'm pretty sure I will revert to the Ultexes when I put D'Addarios, or Gibson Bill Monroes back on.
I find that I hold the pick firmly but not with a death grip. With too loose a grip, it slaps the strings too much to suit me plus I can't get the volume I want. I try to both chop and break at the sweet spot near the end of the fret board, but sometimes when I want to dig in, I move up toward the bridge for a brighter tone. I do use a Tone-Gard, my action is high enough to get a nice bark and I use 11/11.5,16,26, 40/41 strings. I have caught myself planting my pinky on the body approximately midway between the top of the treble f hole and the end of the fretboard, but I am attempting to stop this habit. I honestly hear little difference in tone between when it is planted and when it isn't. My right arm is against the arm rest, but not clamped to the mandolin. I like how my mandolin sounds, but I'll leave to others to say whether I produce good tone on it or not.

[jmcgann]

http://www.johnmcgann.com/soundfund.jpg

Available now! (http://www.johnmcgann.com/books.html)

[Andrew Lewis]

warm up properly, relax while playing, don't push down too hard, don't let right hand open while playing...don't lift your head to look up at the ball...oh wait....
I'm not a big golfer, but I think there's a nice analogy here. As there are so many minute factors we can analyze to work towards better tone, for me it always comes down to simple feel and emotion. When you relax and let your emotion come out in your playing (in other words, just enjoying the music and expressing yourself with your instrument), your tone will be better (read: more expressive). Like golf, you can really let your brain get in the way. The minute you walk up to the tee and start trying to recall every little thing you learned about a good swing, you'll almost always duff it. I think we need to work on our "swings" at the driving range, but when we hit the course, all we need to be concerned with is "getting the ball in the hole."

I definitely think we should learn and practice the details of good technique (ideally getting them ingrained in the earliest stages of learning), but when it comes time to just play the thing, our brains can get in the way of our fingers and ears producing good tone.

[jmcgann]

when it comes time to just play the thing, our brains can get in the way of our fingers and ears producing good tone.

true- which is why there is a difference between thoughtful effective practicing and "just playing". If someone expects it all to happen by magic "just playing", they are missing the fact that their heroes have put in a lot of thought to be able to do what they do and make it look so easy.

The time invested in getting good playing habits (starting in the practice room, not onstage) pays off for the rest of your life.

[devilstone_the_bard]

awww man John, *how* soon?


<drool> http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[MikeB]

I don't think anyone mentioned action height as an influence on tone. I'm not even sure I understand why it happens, but I've noticed a pronounced improvement in tone (and not just in volume) on several mandolins (and guitars) when the action was raised...or to put it more specifically, when strings that were set too low were raised somewhat.

[jmcgann]

awww man John, *how* soon?


they should arrive to us from the duplicator in 10 days....so i will probably start taking orders next week via my webpage (http://www.johnmcgann.com/books.html).

String height can surely improve tone is the strings are fretting out or just too low- but Tony Rice has always played with a VERY low action on his D28 and no loss of tone there! String height needs to match your right hand attack- if you play like Bill Monroe, you better have higher action or there'll be more string scraping than actual notes! #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

I use a medium to medium low action, which is the compromise between tone/volume and playability. No sense having really high action for tone's sake if you can't play the durn thing...

[bradeinhorn]

thile plays with very low action. i think at the expense of volume. i'd say his tone is ok. i wouldn't say raising the action is the key, rather, it is getting the set-up right so that the tone can be good with the action low.

[mythicfish]

I'll restrict my comments to the right hand:
The best tone is achieved with the greatest economy of motion ... you can play loud without looking like you're playing loud. #The pick is best held between the fleshy part of the first joints of the thumb and forefinger (not the fingertips) and the rest of the hand in a loose fist. The degree of "looseness" depends on personal preference #and the passage being played. The amount of pick protruding from the grip should be small - on the order of 1/4 inch. The pick is held at an
angle to the strings - this is achieved by pointing the thumb slightly towords the floor. #The down- stroke #is an accelerated motion of the wrist which is parallel to the strings and drives through the pair (or pairs) of strings which you wish to play. Never rotate the wrist in a "key-turning" motion. I'm not sure if I could describe the up-stroke as the mirror
image of the down stroke, but whatever you do, make sure that you wind up in proper position for the next down stroke.
There's also something to be said about how the grip on the pick is alternatively tightened and loosened during the stroke and/or between strokes ... but I don't know how to describe it. The words: "dynamic tension" come to mind.
Discussions concerning action, picks, sweet spots, etc are all hardware related ... good technique is the "inner game".
Nobody sees it ... but everybody hears the results of it.
I'm sure I left something(s) out, but at my age (and at these prices) you can't expect much more.

Curt

[devilstone_the_bard]

John, fyi the link "via my webpage" you have in your post points to :

http://www,johnmcgann.com/books.html

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Jim Broyles]

bard, that link has a comma after www instead of a dot. This link works. (http://www.johnmcgann.com/books.html)

[devilstone_the_bard]

John, I was just letting you know your post 5 or so up had the comma in it and would not work... Just trying to help.

[Jim Broyles]

It was me, not John. I was letting you know. You didn't mention it, so I figured you just thought it was a broken link.

[devilstone_the_bard]

Sorry I just went to add the link as a favourite and FFox told me it was bad. Just trying to help the others out. Thanks jb!

[Ted Eschliman]

What it isn't... Cataloging Bad Tone (http://jazzmando.com/tips/archives/000420.shtml).

[groveland]

Ted, these are great tips on your site.

I think those of us who migrated to mandolin from other instruments (like electric guitar) can get an inflated sense of achievement when we find how quickly and easily prior knowledge transfers to the mandolin - All of a sudden we're playing stuff, no time to cultivate tone! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif But now I record myself and pay attention to the playback, and compare it with the Big Boys. The tape simply doesn't lie. Read 'em and weep. It sure dispels any illusions I have!

[jmcgann]

Thanks guys, link fixed...

[devilstone_the_bard]

I definitely agree on the taping, you'll most likely be surprised one way or the othere hearing yourself played back. Sometimes I hear stuff and say, 'wow, I'm really getting there', but most days I say 'ugh, I didn't hear the screaming cat in the room while I was recording, oh is that *really* what I sound like? I thought I was really getting there" http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Nolan]

Making sure I don't rest my right hand on the bridge at all sure made a big difference. It was hard to break that habit.

[Tom Sanderson]

Making sure I don't rest my right hand on the bridge at all sure made a big difference. It was hard to break that habit. [QUOTE]


That's what I'm working on now. It's a hard habit to break, but, wow what a difference

[Peter Hackman]

awww man John, *how* soon?


they should arrive to us from the duplicator in 10 days....so i will probably start taking orders next week via my webpage (http://www.johnmcgann.com/books.html).

String height can surely improve tone is the strings are fretting out or just too low- but Tony Rice has always played with a VERY low action on his D28 and no loss of tone there! String height needs to match your right hand attack- if you play like Bill Monroe, you better have higher action or there'll be more string scraping than actual notes! #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

I use a medium to medium low action, which is the compromise between tone/volume and playability. No sense having really high action for tone's sake if you can't play the durn thing...
Old D28's are often very responsive

[AW Meyer]

I had a lesson with John Reischman last week. Two things surprised me:
1.The action on his Gibson MM (not the Loar)was quite low, but he pulled great big tone out of it; even I could.
2. He advised me to take a tighter grip on the pick, to try to attain the feel of pressing my thumb directly against my coiled index finger, as if there were no pick between. The tighter grip (which seems to fly in the face of accepted wisdom) resulted in noticeably better tone.

[devilstone_the_bard]

Making sure I don't rest my right hand on the bridge at all sure made a big difference. It was hard to break that habit. [QUOTE]


That's what I'm working on now. It's a hard habit to break, but, wow what a difference
Anyone have a good post / article or picture that describes what's best to do with your hand if you're not resting it on the bridge? I do this and I didn't even realize. When I tried to take my palm off the bridge, my hand was all over the %@#@%#%%%% place http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I almost took an eye out! Thanks

[Peter Hackman]

Making sure I don't rest my right hand on the bridge at all sure made a big difference. #It was hard to break that habit. [QUOTE= ]


That's what I'm working on now. It's a hard habit to break, but, wow what a difference
Anyone have a good post / article or picture that describes what's best to do with your hand if you're not resting it on the bridge? #I do this and I didn't even realize. #When I tried to take my palm off the bridge, my hand was all over the %@#@%#%%%% place http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif #I almost took an eye out! #Thanks
Mandozine catalogs the right hand styles of several well-known mandolin
players.

I use a pick-guard, because my first mandolin had one. (Judging from
the looks of #some players' mandos #I think it should be called a top-guard).

When I mention the guard many #people
immediately assume that I'm a pinky poster.
I'm not, #I'm a fist curler (we need names
for everything don't we?). My right hand brushes lightly over the
guard.

Quite a few among those who don't use a guard touch the strings
behind the bridge with the palm of their right hand. There are
those who really play with a #floating right hand. If that's not
the way you started it's probably difficult to learn, and fortunately
it's not necessary.

[AlanN]

I remember seeing a guy busking on the street when I had been playing for maybe a year. He had a completely free-floating right hand and I thought I would never be able to do that. It took a long time, but I am now that guy busking on the street corner http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[devilstone_the_bard]

Thanks! I did some googling and it seems that an acceptable position is side / back of palm on strings between bridge and tail piece. When using a pick, I can't handle floating just yet, but I do play a lot of medieval / Renaissance stuff and I drone the G as I finger pick (for a lute-ish sound that rocks!), so I never rest, pivot or touch then.

[Nolan]

You have to take a few steps back in order to learn to play with a free floating right hand, probably that is true of breaking any habit actually. #I took a few steps back for sure and it took about a year to break even. #There were some great guys here on the café that encouraged me to do it and they told me the same thing… it might take a year but it's worth it. #My first thoughts when I tried it were, "You've got to be kidding me!"

The hardest part was playing a show while trying to transition… I had to revert back to the old way just cause I couldn't play without planting the heel of my hand right behind the bridge.
You can do it, just stick with it. #There are other advantages to the free floating hand besides tone, #your speed will improve, you can instantly move where you pick to change your tone by either moving closer to the fret board or the bridge, your transitions between picked notes and tremolo are smoother also. #So, like others have said not every great player does it but in my opinion it's worth the work.
The other hard part is learning to do it standing up because nothing will be anchoring the mandolin body since your hand no longer holds it down. #I had to learn to use the inside of my right leg to rest the mandolin on while I play like # this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdyjxaM27_k)

[Peter Hackman]

Thanks! #I did some googling and it seems that an acceptable position is side / back of palm on strings between bridge and tail piece. #When using a pick, I can't handle floating just yet, but I do play a lot of medieval / Renaissance stuff and I drone the G as I finger pick (for a lute-ish sound that rocks!), so I never rest, pivot or touch then.
of course, you don't plant, just touch (or not). Same
with a pickguard, don't brace or post anything. The guard
should be used as a guide rather than a support.

[jmcgann]

I agree with Sweet Pete- touching without anchoring doesn't seem to mess with tone, assuming the other 25 components between the two hands are all working correctly...

[cooper4205]

why is it you get better tone by simple closing up your fist? the way i grip the pick doesn't really change when i close my hand up, and i didn't buy the closed-fist grip to improve tone line at first.

but when i did close my fist up (loosely) it changed for the better. not only did my tone improve, but my wrist is staying looser as well when i go to play faster passages.

why does it make that big a difference, when i really don't grip the pick between my thumb and finger any differently?

[Chip Booth]

cooper4205, it could have to do with a change in your pick angle. #I find that for me almost all of my current tone issues have to do with the angle of the pick. #I find that lightly pinky posting on the pickguard puts my hand in a better position and gives me a better angle resulting in a fuller tone. #This position also increases my overall accuracy with the right hand, but it seems to limit my speed. #I am not sure if this a limitation of posting or simply the fact that posting is a fairly new position for me and I have not yet made the adjustment.

Chip

[jmcgann]

I respectfully disagree with posting fingers and closed fists. (http://www.johnmcgann.com/techtips.html)

[Chip Booth]

John, I have read your page and recommmended my students read it on many occasions. #I would say my normal hand position is more or less the way you describe, but I cannot seem to get the same richness of tone I get from posting from the relaxed hand or loose fist with the hand behind the bridge. #For me, the result so far of my long experiment is that I use several grips and positions to achieve various results. #

Chip

[mythicfish]

Chip, I play with some "pretty good" guitar and mandolin players who have the potential to become "very good" if they would correct the following habits:

1. Pinky posting
2. Holding the pick between the tips of the thumb and forefinger.
I believe that these habits come about because the feel that they experience a measure of "control"; but what it really does is inhibit tone, volume and dynamic range


Disclaimer: I use a "pickguard/finger rest" but do not use it for either of the purposes that its name implies. I use it as
a "guide" when playing fast passages/tremelo ... the edges of my fingernails brush across it and ensures that my stroke
remains parallel to and at a consistent distance from the strings.
I know it's hard to imagine that such a degree of control and freedom is possible when there is no "visible means of support" ... but I can't argue with the improvement.

Curt

[Chip Booth]

Curt, I have no problem playing without a "means of support". In fact, as melodies get faster or rhythm playing requires expressive movement I always revert to a completely unsupported hand position. That's how I learned to play, and until a few years ago it was the only way I played. I took a private lesson with Radim Zenkl, and he strongly encouraged me to learn to post. I resisted it, and only began to consider it when I saw how a guitar student of mine who just couldn't get it together suddenly improved when she tried posting. I decided to finally give it a try for myself, and although, as I have mentioned it slows me down a bit, it seems to have a very positive effect on my tone. Keep in mind the difference in tone is minimal, probably not even noticable to the untrained ear, but you know how picky we players are! I have been unable to replicate the conditions (hand position, grip, pick angle, whatever it is) that give me that tone using any other method. So for now I have been posting in situations where speed is not critical but rather I am more concerned with getting the best possible sound.

In principle I am against posting, but I have to admit it has it's benefits for me. I fall into the "whatever works" category in this case. I would love it if someone some day could analyze my technique and figure out how I could get the kind of tone I want without posting.

Chip

[Jonathan Peck]

I find that I brush the bridge, staying sort of connected without planting while I sit and play...but I do plant if I'm feeling realy lazy. When I stand and play, I find that my hand is free floating and doesn't brush or plant. For some reason, standing and playing realy seems to free up my picking hand

[hedding]

there seems to be a fundamental attribution error when it comes to tone with most people, myself included. Whenever someone comments on my tone it's always "Man, you have a really nice mandolin," not "Man, you have a really great right hand." I think I do the same though tending to think other people sound good or better than me only because they're instrument is more expensive not that they're rigth hand is more skilled.

many people seem to be looking for a shortcut to good tone. I say just take a metronome, play some scales slowly, and watch how you can affect the amount each pair of strings ring. I've noticed if i am not conscious of this when i speed things up i'll actually only be hitting one of the two notes in the pair usually the top one on the downstroke and the bottom on the upstroke, thats a big loss in tone right there but it doens't always get noticed because it feels very fluid to play that way.

[Jonathan Peck]

you know.....I'm also finding that as I build up strength in my pinky on my fretting hand, my overall tone has gotten much better. I wonder if it's just that my hand is getting used to being in a better fretting position (higher in relation to the fingerboard/less unneccessary movement/better angle in relation to the fingerboard) and I've been builing up more overall hand and wrist strenth.

[jmcgann]

there seems to be a fundamental attribution error when it comes to tone with most people, myself included. Whenever someone comments on my tone it's always "Man, you have a really nice mandolin," not "Man, you have a really great right hand."

There's a story attributed to Chet Atkins:

FAN: "Man, that guitar sounds great!"
CHET (holding guitar in front of him and looking at it): "Son, I don't hear anything now!"

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[mythicfish]

The last few days ... playing and thinking about tone. Play a little ... think a little, etc.
Maybe talking about tone is like dancing about architecture.
My latest crackpot (hmm ... one word ..two drugs?) theory involves a feedback loop involving ear, heart, mind, hand ...
Hey man, it's all neurons!
Unless it isn't.

Curt

[Tom Sanderson]

[QUOTE]
You have to take a few steps back in order to learn to play with a free floating right hand, probably that is true of breaking any habit actually. I took a few steps back for sure and it took about a year to break even. There were some great guys here on the café that encouraged me to do it and they told me the same thing… it might take a year but it's worth it. My first thoughts when I tried it were, "You've got to be kidding me!"

Nolan, your post is really encouraging for me, It almost feels like I'm learning all over again, but I see improvement. Knowing that someone else did it gives me the determination to stick to it. Thanks for your help.
Tom

[devilstone_the_bard]

The last few days ... playing and thinking about tone. Play a little ... think a little, etc.
Maybe talking about tone is like dancing about architecture.
My latest crackpot (hmm ... one word ..two drugs?) theory involves a feedback loop involving ear, heart, mind, hand ...
Hey man, it's all neurons!
Unless it isn't.

Curt
huh? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[mythicfish]

Really ... watch a major league pitcher. Those guys don't "aim" the ball.

Curt

[RobinG]

I would say, when practising for tone, play scales, trying to make each note last strongly until the next one begins: in order to do that you are obliged to hit a good clear note and move clearly into the next one.

[Chip Booth]

I find that lightly pinky posting on the pickguard puts my hand in a better position and gives me a better angle resulting in a fuller tone. #
An update: I have been thinking hard about this issue for the last few weeks and today I think I discovered what may be, for me, a key factor in why I have been getting better tone posting than using a free hand. It turns out that when I post my hand position is slightly forward, right in the sweet spot, maybe 3/4" more towards the neck than when I play with a free hand and a loose grip. So I tried playing free handed in the same spot and began to get some of that tone back. Again, this is a very subtle difference, but it's enough to be noticable to me. The problem for now is that playing unsupported in that position is not comfortable, but maybe that can dealt with by time and practice.

Chip