Chinese flatirons

[Greg H.]

I was over at Greg Boyd's (http://www.gregboyd.com/mando.html) website and ran across this

"The time to buy older Flatirons is NOW, as Gibson is already contracting the Flatiron brand instruments to come in from China starting in 2007!!!"

Sigh, they may be perfectly good instruments (to compete with Eastman and their own Epiphones)but it's a sad use of the Flatiron name IMHO.

[bradeinhorn]

that is lame - same thing happened with epiphone years back...the flatiron name will certainly be watered down.

[Greg H.]

Yes, it happened to Washburn as well in guitars, but it just seems like there's a bit of duplicity in this. I suspect there will be a lot of buyers thinking they're getting American made instruments because of the name.

[bradeinhorn]

ultimately the quality will determine the value. i am sure they will be priced competitively with other overseas brands than american made ones. plus, it will have to be clearly labeled.

[Martin Jonas]

I'm not sure what the labelling requirements for musical instruments are these days: the label in my 1989 Washburn makes no mention of the country of manufacture and instead just states "hand-crafted in the Washburn tradition since 1899".

Martin

[Steve Jeter]

Dang,,, good for me though, the 1987 Flatiron Im gonna sell just jumped in value ,,, I guess

[cooper4205]

i was told the same thing about the flatirons being made overseas by an employee at the Gibson Showcase so i didn't know how much stock to put in it. i hope its not true, as i would like to see the Flatiron name used on hand-made, American instruments.


if it does happen (which i guess it is) i hope they are made in the same fashion as the Epiphone Masterbilt line of guitars, banjos and ukes

[Doug Edwards]

I had heard at a workshop, with a Gibson represenative on hand, the Flatiron name was being looked at as being outsourced to the orient. No specific details were given, but I thought the same thing happening as with Epiphone. I guess the quality of the product will speak for itself. Tough product name to live up to.

[Tom C]

It would sure help if they at least finished them here in the USA. It would help avoid the usually thich laquer(sp) they use. -I heard to help protect them for long periods at sea.

[JEStanek]

It would sure help if they at least finished them here in the USA. It would help avoid the usually thich laquer(sp) they use. -I heard to help protect them for long periods at sea.
If sea water is reaching product in containers on a ship... they'll have way more problems than thick finish. Rusted frozen tuners for one...

I don't think that's why so many import mandos have thick finishes... I think thats just the way the build them fast and plentiful.

If someone can show me how a thick finish is good protection... I'll use my Johnson exclusively for sea chanties! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Jamie

[Tom C]

Salt in the air.

[allenhopkins]

I understand Fender is having some Guild instruments built in the Far East -- another established American instrument brand "outsourced," though I guess the more expensive models are still built in the US. I really am more accepting of import brands that honestly advertise their origin (Yamaha, Takamine), than those which try to evoke American or European heritage (Kentucky, Galveston, Flint Hill, Fullerton, Alvarez, Ibanez, Morgan Monroe, Blue Ridge, Michael Kelly, Eastman -- the list goes on and on). But I think the worst are established American labels that get exported (Epiphone, Washburn, now Guild and Flatiron).

No reason to be embarassed about making an instrument in Asia, so why hide its origins?

[fatt-dad]

This makes me mad.

fatt loyal-to-the-pre-Gibson-Flatiron-line dad

[JGWoods]

A good instrument is a good instrument. My Epiphone Strand made in NYC in 1956 or so is not diminished in price or value by current models.

[jk245]

I'm not sure what the labelling requirements for musical instruments are these days: the label in my 1989 Washburn makes no mention of the country of manufacture and instead just states "hand-crafted in the Washburn tradition since 1899".

Martin
The current (2006) Washburn models have a clearly marked label saying "Made in China"

[pickinNgrinnin]

A shameful ending for the proud line that resurrected Gibson. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[PCypert]

Maybe Gibson mandolins...but not Gibson...the other lines were doing alright with or without Flatiron. It is a shame though. I had high hopes for an American line that filled in some niche gaps that didn't fit with current Gibson vision/lines. Like moving the F9/A9 to Flatiron, having oval holes, two pointers, X braced stuff, etc...more modern line stuff...then keep the Gibson line focused on really top notch bluegrass boxes. Shame too...I was looking forward to the next F oval from Gibson/Flatiron...

Paul

[Rick Cadger]

A shameful ending for the proud line that resurrected Gibson. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
i don't really understand. why is it a shameful ending. is it even an ending?

a little early to be so gloomy, is it not?

if existing or equally high specs, manufacturing methods and quality control are applied, things could turn out fine, surely.

unless one has a political axe to grind about the geography of manufacture.

[fatt-dad]

unless one has a political axe to grind about the geography of manufacture.
That's kind of unfair. I felt sorry when Levi's moved overseas. It was an end to some measure of historical context from the miners, loggers and basic renegades in California that harkened to a time different that we see in California today. While I know that Weber is currently making mandolins in Montana, the Flatiron line certainly set a bar that was WAY higher then the other manufactures had in place - circa late 70s.

I have no problem buying a TV from overseas and when I used to buy Scotch, I liked to get stuff from Scotland. (Could you imagine the reaction to moving Glenlevet (sp) to the US?). I'm actually greatful that I have a Mercedes that was made in Germany rather then the ones currently being made in the US, etc.) I am personally reacting to Gibson's merchandising of the Flatiron label (or potential). I am not on any Asian bashing political bandwagon.

f-d

[Steve L]

Every time an Epiphone electric guitar comes into the shop where I work , I feel a little sad when I remember what nice instruments used to be made with that name on the headstock. #I hope the same thing won't happen with Flatiron.

[jaco]

The cliff notes version would be 1) Gibson buys out Flatiron line due to the competition it is giving them 2) Gibson discontinues the line due to the competition it is giving them 3) Gibson brings Flatiron back and sends them to China. Sounds like a Greek tragedy to me.

[cooper4205]

i don't think it political either. i, like fatt-dad, have a pre-gibson flatiron. mine is a little A5-Jr, but it will hold its own with any mandolin (or banjo, etc).

it's a great sounding and looking hand-made mandolin that i got for a great deal. when i was recently in Nashville, there wasn't one mandolin i would have traded it for. not saying mine was better, but it was just as good in its own way as anything i happened to play there- regardless of price.


the same cannot be said of any imported epiphone (or kentucky, ibanez, alot of eastman's etc.) that i have played. while some can sound good, even great, most are not going to be able to compare, in tone, volume or workmanship with a well-made mandolin from here in the States.

its been said before, but noone wants to see a great brand- like Flatiron- be relegated to a product line whose quality is a shadow of what it once was.

[mythicfish]

" I was over at Greg Boyd's website and ran across this

"The time to buy older Flatirons is NOW"


This "news flash" seems to be about 20 years too late.

Curt

[Rick Cadger]

i was specifically wondering about the 'shameful' thing, which seemed like a strong choice of term. the 'political' thing was just me wondering what could be so emotive. no accusation of "Asian bashing" made or implied, therefore nothing unfair about it.

the phrasing simply made me wonder if there is something more that i am missing. i am quite new to the Cafe, but i do gather there has been some political discussion on this board regarding imports. it is reasonable for me to wonder if that forms part of the concern expressed.

i do understand the sadness at seeing a tradition lost to somewhere else.

in purely practical terms, i still reckon it's early to be writing the product's or the brand's obituary. be optimistic until the worst actually happens.

can Mr Vest offer any insight?

[fatt-dad]

i was specifically wondering about the 'shameful' thing
I'd say the thinking (at least for me) is that when Gibson purchased Flatiron, Flatiron was making much better mandolins then Gibson. Gibson bought Flatiron to resurrect the mandolin to their company.

Gibson has an imported mandolin lineup - Epiphone. I kind of agree it is shameful from the merchandising perspective to exploit the Flatiron brand, considering how great they once were.

f-d

[Bill Van Liere]

Well let's just see what rolls off the line. Flatiron has always represented great value and I hope this will continue.

I am the original owner of two Montana Flatirons. One is an F-5 Master which is probabaly the most rare Flatiron model out there. I have gone back and forth in my mind about selling this instrument. Hearing of yet another generation of Flatirons emerging, I again am reninforced to hang on to Ole 327 (SN 88060327). Maybe we should be glad to hear that the Flatiron name marches on in time. So in my mind (and what else really matters) the value of the older Flatirons are already going up as I decide to keep one of the originals as an example.

[pickinNgrinnin]

A shameful ending for the proud line that resurrected Gibson.

Yes, Gibson Mandolins. This site is about Mandolins. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[QUOTE]unless one has a political axe to grind about the geography of manufacture.

That's not what this is about so there is no need to make assumptions here. Besides, that's a violation of cafe policy.

As FD mentioned, it's about the historical connection/context. Flatiron has a great history. They produced some exceptionally fine Mandolins during their pre Gibson and Gibson years. Folks like Bruce Weber, Steve Carlson, Paul Schneider, Charlie Derrington, Danny Roberts, Sim Daley, etc. had a hand in establishing and maintaining the Flatiron name/brand.

Now if this story is indeed true, it appears Gibson will be riding on the name to sell Mandolins built overseas. Certainly not the first time they've done this. It's hard to imagine they will be of the same quality as the ones built in Montana and Nashville.

So yes, I feel it is a shameful ending to this proud line that resurrected Gibson Mandolins. I have a Nashville Gibson Mandolin and a pre Gibson Flatiron. I've also owned Montana Gibson Flatirons. This looks like a way for Gibson to sell more Mandolins built at lower costs. I just wish they were not using the Flatiron name. Companies change hands, they move overseas and that's how it goes. You grow to accept that but you don't have to like it. YMMV.

[David M.]

Makes me appreciate my N'ville made Festival F even more than I already do...

Folks, this unfortunately is a reality in all products these days. It's hit the company I work for, so we introduced an import line to at least gain some of the sales that happen at that low pricing category. Like said above, I just wish it wasn't using the Flatiron name to do so.

[mythicfish]

We seem to have short memories. Did anyone see the "gun" pointed at the heads of Flatirons management/ownership
when they sold the brand to Gibson? For better or worse, Gibson owns the brand and can do with it as they wish ... they
are - and should be - immune to any sentimentality which gets in the way of their principal purpose.

Curt

[Celtic Saguaro]

I don't know. #If imported Flatirons establish a middle ground for the company between the high-end Gibsons and the beginner Epiphones, I think it's fine. Brand-name loyalty is grossly over rated. Buying value for what you can afford is not.

[Jim Broyles]

No, no, no, Curt. A thing which has become an institution or a tradition is not permitted to be changed in any manner. Why, what would happen if Fender started making guitars in Mexico or something? What's that? They already did, and they are pretty good, playable instruments which hold their value? Oh. Didn't know that.

[Jim MacDaniel]

"Tradition is overrated."
~anonymous

"Change is good. And in fact unavoidable."
~Dirk Benedict

"Buy something else if it doesn't flip your switch."
~Jim MacDaniel ;)

[Tim]

We seem to have short memories. Did anyone see the "gun" pointed at the heads of Flatirons management/ownership
when they sold the brand to Gibson? For better or worse, Gibson owns the brand and can do with it as they wish ... they
are - and should be - immune to any sentimentality which gets in the way of their principal purpose.

Curt
I was thinking the same thing. #If anyone doesn't want the Flatirons made in Asia, I'm sure Gibson would sell you the rights to the name. Just make to opportunity cost of not doing it high enough.

[om21ed]

So, I was wondering--is the blonde,oval hole Flatiron discussed here at the cafe a while back the last American made Flatiron ? I guess that alone would make it something special. Or are there other prototypes out there ? Or would Gibson tool up based on the Nashville line specs ? Ed McG

[Rick Cadger]

A shameful ending for the proud line that resurrected Gibson.

Yes, Gibson Mandolins. This site is about Mandolins. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[QUOTE= ]unless one has a political axe to grind about the geography of manufacture.

That's not what this is about so there is no need to make assumptions here. Besides, that's a violation of cafe policy... *edited by ft for length*
in context, i said:

"if existing or equally high specs, manufacturing methods and quality control are applied, things could turn out fine, surely.

unless one has a political axe to grind about the geography of manufacture."

the second line follows, and refers to, the first. it is me observing that if practical and quality considerations were to be satisfied, political considerations might apply for some people if they were still not satisfied. my use of the general pronoun "one" rather than the specific "you" is because the observation was not directed to any person. nor was it an accusation.

i have no argument here. i make no assumptions and i honestly doubt i have violated any rational policies.

having said that, i readily apologise for giving you cause for concern. that was not my intention.

[Yuletide]

Could you imagine the reaction to moving Glenlevet (sp) to the US
Sure can! Kind of like my reaction was many years ago when Lowenbrau, the favorite beer of my younger years, made an agreement with Miller that gave Miller exclusive rights to the Lowenbrau name in the U.S., thus making the real thing unavailable here for many years. What Miller brewed wasn't that bad. It's just that it was a typical American beer rather than a typical German beer. If the agreement between Lowenbrau and Miller had stipulated that Miller had to use the same recipe, ingredients, and processes as Lowenbrau used, the American-made product could have been just fine.

I'd think the same is true of Gibson and China. If Gibson insists that Chinese Flatirons must meet the same quality standards as those the American product has met, the product may be just fine, and maybe even a bargain. If Gibson's strategy is to exploit the Flatiron name by marketing a lower end product under an upper end name, that's sad, but typical of capitalist enterprise. However, if their intention is to exploit the low cost of Chinese labor, and thus increase sales by being able to offer a product of quality equal to that of the American made product, but at a lower price, that's good for mandolin players, if not for American labor.

Either way, Gibson is just doing what corporations do: maximize stockholder value. That's the reason-for-being of all for-profit corporations. If you want to buy an instrument from someone whose reason-for-being is not maximizing profit, buy from a small, independent luthier. You can tell they're not just in it for the money, or they'd be doing something else for a living http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Gawd, I'm verbose. Somebody ought to slap me one and tell me to shut up.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Greg H.]

I guess when I started this thread I had two thoughts in mind. One was the duplicity involved (which I realize had become synonymous with standard business practices these days). Gibson already has a line of mandolins made overseas (a.k.a. Epiphone) so the logical assumption would be that they're using the name to promote something based on the Flatiron history, but with no connection to the Flatiron history. Now they may make perfectly good mandolins, but the likelihood of these being in the same level as the Flatrons of the past is VERY slim. Of course Fender and others are doing the same (see comment about standard business practices above).

My second thought was what was going to happen. In the 20s and 30s Washburn was making guitars that could hold their own with Martins (and indeed put out dreadnaughts before Martin). Even in recent memory Epiphone was a respected US brand. If you mention either now, the immediate assumption is of a PacRim instrument. That doesn't necessarily mean they're bad (my son loves his Epiphone Les Paul) but there's still a good bit lost. Flatirons were made by people who played mandolin (which I think can also be said of most, if not all of the builders on this site) and basically I think a mandolin player will always know better how a mandolin should sound. So, even if the craftsmanship is good and the finish isn't thicker than the wood, it's still not what it was or could have been.

I will now end my admittedly sentimental ravings.

[Tom C]

What ever they are doing, Gibs*n is not going to want to compete against themselves.
-Which with their prices should be no problem. But maybe they can make a better mando than Eastman. I only say Eastman as they are one that seems to have a good product for the price. So, if the top of the line Eastman is about $1800, maybe Flatiron will shoot for the $3000 mark and still make good mando for the price.
This will keep it well away from the Gibs*n market.

[Michael H Geimer]

Say you buy someone's ranch, and now you own the branding irons. You can raise cattle anyway you like and stick that old iron on them, but it's not the same beef.

I wish companies would put and end this useless practice of "re-branding", and return to the idea of what a brand truly means: a maker's mark.

Gibson did not build Flatiron, they bought Flatiron. In that spirit they do not own the brand ... they own the branding iron.

Say quality is really good coming out of Gibson's outsourced facility; why not call it a Gibson then? Not matter what the quality, it's a Flatiron in name only.

[Jim MacDaniel]

Great post B, and therein may lie the solution to this worry: the branding iron may have changed hands years ago, but the hearts and souls of Flatiron are alive and well in Montana, still building very nice mandolins.

[fatt-dad]

Flatiron, Flatson, Nash Flatson, New Nash Flatson (prototype), Pac Flatson.

Time to update the lineage!

Interesting comments. No matter what happens, I think it's fair to say, we have some passionate Flatiron owners!

f-d

[pickinNgrinnin]

[QUOTE] I think it's fair to say, we have some passionate Flatiron owners!

I'll drink to that http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[allenhopkins]

Perhaps they could call the new mando the Flatulent?

Anyway, saying "the Flatiron owners sold to Gibson" is a shorthand description of an interesting process. When Flatiron in fact became "Gibson Montana," they were building, I believe, most if not all of Gibson's quality mandolins and acoustic guitars. Gibson acquired Flatiron as a transfusion of badly-needed luthier expertise, since in many people's opinion Gibson was becoming basically "the Les Paul guitar company."

Epiphone also has a more complex history, after Epi Stathopoulo (sp?) or his heirs sold their company to Gibson. Remember, Gibson didn't originally use the Epiphone name for imports; for decades, Epiphones were made in Kalamazoo, as a slightly downscale but nearly equivalent line of quality instruments (Epiphone Texan = Gibson J-50, etc.)

My beef with making Flatiron a Pac-rim import line has nothing to do with xenophobia or political exclusiveness; I'm the proud owner of an Eastman mandola, a Johnson tri-cone guitar and resonator ukulele, and will buy Pac-rim for price and value. I just get a bit weary of American brands with a real history and lineage, being reassigned to imported instruments, when Gibson could just as well label them with a recognizably Chinese name and let them stand on their own merits. Which is why I prefer "Yamaha" and "Takamine" to "Kentucky" and "Morgan Monroe."

There's no stigma attached to buying a good imported instrument (or beer, or whiskey). So why not call your new imported line "Shanghai" mandolins, instead of "Flatiron"?

[fatt-dad]

Which is why I prefer "Yamaha" and "Takamine" to "Kentucky" and "Morgan Monroe."
I kind of agree with this. Even JVC (Japanese Victor Corporation) changed the name of RCA Victor when they bought the company and moved it overseas (since to become Lucky Goldstar - LG products). It's much more authentic to purchase an asian product with an asian name. Here! Here!

f-d

[JEStanek]

For my money... If the Chinese made Flatiron is to compete against Eastman and succeed they better be handmade as well and sound as good for the same price. I really love my Eastman mandolin. If PRC Flatiron sells for $3K you might as well buy a Weber from the States. $3k will get an awful lot of mando out of a small shop builder, why spend that much on a production one not built by folks who play the mandolin.

If Gibson Inc can capitalize on the Flatiron name and make a decent instrument to compete against Eastman and Eastman's price point then things might get interesting... But I'll keep pickin my Eastman. My Eastman and Morgan Monroe were both clearly labeled for country of origin (Made In Korea sticker on back of Headstock for the MM and on the label for the Eastman. I appreciate Eastman a bit more as their website makes it clear they are made in PRC and proud of their workers skill (shop tour section). Finding Morgan Monroe's home page is tougher to sort out other than being a subsidiary of SHS International. MK's Myspace page identifies "him" as a 40 year old male from Florida. (http://www.myspace.com/michael_kelly_guitars)

I'll trust the label to let me know who and where they're made.

Jamie

[PCypert]

It doesn't actually seem like a feasable shot really. You have epiphone bringing up the bottom end for Gibson company. Then you have the A9 and F9 bridging the gap. If they make anything of quality at that medium price there goes those two mandolins. If they make these mandolins good (which they should) and at a competitive price (which they should) it'll drive sales away from their current mandos. Seems kind of stupid really.

I'm no business expert, but seems like they could have made more money by using the Flatiron name to expand their current offerings to pull in folks that aren't after the Gibson "bluegrass" sound. There's lots of classic Gibson designs going unmade (snakehead). Weber with the STE line is proving you can make great mandolins that fit that middle section in the states. They have some great F's coming out around 2K under the STE name. Time will tell, but due to the fervor on these boards, economic restrictions, etc if I were an investor I'd be putting my money on this doing more harm to Gibson than good (moving to China)...I'd be trying to diversify American made stuff (remember how Gibson is supposed to stand for American quality, tradition?...not getting into a debate about this, just saying from a branding, customer loyalty standpoint) ...but what do I know?

Paul

[Greg H.]

Well here's my prediction (and whether or not it's accurate is probably not known outside of the Gibson board room). I think they'll end up doing away with the 9 series, and maybe even the As and the F5G, and have the Chinese Flatirons covering everything under $5,000. Then, having gotten rid of the less expensive/more bulk produced mandolins they then seriously downsize that expensive American workforce. I hope I'm wrong, but I've seen the same thing happen in companies all over the country.

[mythicfish]

The one brite spot in all of this is that it has nothing to do with music.

Curt

[Big Joe]

It's pretty hard to downsize that expensive American workforce when it only comprises a few people http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif.

Let me address one other issue. When Gibson bought Flatiron they had one of the best mandolin luthiers in the world working for them. Let's not forget Charlie Derrington. Then there was Jim Triggs who was still here at that time. I don't think mandolin building talent was lacking in Nashville. The idea was to have the facility in Montana for other reasons which includes the wonderful acoustic guitars that are being built there.

As for the rest of the discussion, you seem to know more than I do so I certainly have nothing to add. Speculation must be fun though http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif .

[cooper4205]

who else would we share mando-gossip with, our wives? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Tom C]

I speculate Gibs*n will buy Eastman, move their production to the Flatiron plant -Making sure Flatiron are the superior instrument, then discontinue Eastman. Then maybe they will move to Algeria where labor is probably cheaper than China and this will be the start of the afro-mando.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[hanknc]

Alright! Pre-Gibson Eastman 505 for sale. Hurry before the prices really go up!

[pickinNgrinnin]

[QUOTE]who else would we share mando-gossip with, our wives?

Oh yea... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

Speculation is an inherent element to most instrument related discussion boards. Goes with the territory.

Way to big up that pre Gibson Eastman http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[T.T. Brown]

I'm starting a small mando building shop here in the rolling, green hills of Western NC. I'm branding them "The Yokozuna" (guaranteed to knock everyone else out of your jam circle).
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Steven Stone]

[We seem to have short memories. Did anyone see the "gun" pointed at the heads of Flatirons management/ownership
when they sold the brand to Gibson?]

Well, actually, a gun WAS held to their heads in the form of a lawsuit for copyright infringement.

Steve Carlson was so proud of his Flatioron F-style instrument that he took one to the Gibson booth at NAMM to show it off. In retrospect, not the brightest move....

Flatiron chose to sell rather than fight with Gibson.

[pickinNgrinnin]

Interesting tidbit there Steve.

[bgmando]

This stinks. I just found this thread. I'm angry, if this is true.

I own an '83 Flatiron pancake and an '84 F-5, one made before they had model names. Both are killer for their styles.

I can't believe Gibson is taking a classic American instrument name and cheapening it by sending it to China.
They should have had the class to come up with a new name for the line.

I had been eyeing Master Models. No more.
If Gibson is doing this, I won't be buying mandos or guitars from them.
I'm just sick and tired of hollow, shallow, deceptive marketing in American business.

[jaco]

Corporate greed pure and simple. Sorry, it is the american way for large corporations.
And yes I already read, if you don't like it, don't buy it. Don't worry, I don't, and I won't.

[trevor]

Why pick on American large corporations??? Aren't they all the same?? Perhaps one or two exceptions but none spring to mind right now...

[jaco]

American craftsmanship is a relatively new trade when compared with Europe or other civilizations. What little we have of it, some would hate to see diluted for the sake of stockholders $$$. The fact that the same instrument can be made for the same or less investment in Japan or wherever is not the issue though some will disagree. Some of us (not all) still take pride in what American craft we have produced (i.d. Loyd Loar) even if Gibson fired him as well.

[hanknc]

Dear Mandolin Cafe,

Gibson will do the right thing.

Best Regards,
The Epiphone Co.

[mythicfish]

"Well, actually, a gun WAS held to their heads in the form of a lawsuit for copyright infringement."

Please cite the source of this information.

Curt

[Pete Braccio]

Hmm, so where EXACTLY is the Flatiron factory in China? Anyone have the name of the town or city? Anyone contact Boyd's and ask them what they know about this? Anyone want to comment on what the Gibson employees will do for work if no one buys their instruments anymore because they aren't American enough?

Or is this all an exercise in chest beating in standing up for the American worker (while hoping that an American company goes out of business). How many Flatiron employees will lose their jobs even if they start building those mandolins in China? Like, zero, since there are no Flatiron employees currently. How many Gibson employees will go on unemployment if Gibson goes under (since all you all won't ever buy their instruments again)? I'm thinking a bunch.

I just can't wrap my head around the "I'm all for the American worker and craftsmen except for THOSE people" mentality.

I guess what ever works for you does it. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Pete

[cooper4205]

my dissapointment in the move is that old Flatirons were (and still) great mandolins of professional quality that were well priced.


i'm just dissapointed that the quality people are used to won't be behind the name on the headstock.

[Pete Braccio]

'm just dissapointed that the quality people are used to won't be behind the name on the headstock.

How many Chinese made Flatirons have you inspected so far? Are they all as bad as you say?

[pickinNgrinnin]

[QUOTE]How many Chinese made Flatirons have you inspected so far? Are they all as bad as you say?


Like they're going to be better? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[cooper4205]

i'm going by comparing the fit, finish and sound of the other mandolins i have owned that were chinese-made with the flatiron i currently have (which was the lowest level A5 they made in its time and cost me less than most solid-wood imported F-styles).

even though my flatiron was their lowest-level A5, the imported mandolins i have owned didn't hold a candle to it, not my alvarez, not my kentucky or my eastman.



the chinese flatirons might be better quality than the kentucky's and alvarez's i have had in the past, but i wouldn't bet money on it.

i have no problem with imported mandolins, i love my eastman- but then they are made by hand, unlike the vast majority of imports.


that's the main reason why my opinion is what it is, i guess i have seen enough pac-rim mandolins to tell that as a rule they are not up to snuff when compared to bench made mandolins, like many of those that are made in the states are.


bottom line, its my opinion and feelings on the matter. i'm not asking anyone to agree with me, and i'm not saying i'm right- but that's what i think.

[Pete Braccio]

Like they're going to be better?

Don't know. The point is that you don't know either. As far as I can tell all the "facts" that are being thrown around here have no information to back them up.

Again, where is the factory? What are the specs? How do they sound? What is the finish like? How many different models are there? Who has seen a China built Flatiron? How much do they cost? Where can I buy one? Where can I get more information on them?

Pete

[allenhopkins]

[1] We are basing this discussion, I believe, on a statement on G Boyd's website that Gibson is already contracting to have Flatiron mandolins built in China. As far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong), Gibson hasn't made an announcement of these plans, so asking for details such as "where's the factory, what are the specs, what models/finishes/prices etc.?" is asking for information that is not as yet available -- but the unavailability of this information (as of now) doesn't need to prevent us from discussing the overall concept of assigning the "Flatiron" name to a line of imported mandolins. While some posters have speculated that such mandolins will necessarily be inferior to the American-made Flatirons, this is speculation, and empirical data to prove or disprove the hypothesis does not as yet exist. Asking for such data is a "red herring," IMHO.

[2] To restate: my beef with the overall concept is that taking an established and respected American nameplate, and "repositioning" it as an import line, is a near-subterfuge marketing ploy to give the prestige and respect earned by Flatiron -- both as an independent line and as a subsidiary of Gibson -- to a line of instruments that may or may not deserve such a level of prestige and respect.

Which is why I wish those who import musical instruments from Asia would avoid giving them the names of former American manufacturers (Washburn, Guild, Epiphone etc.), or names cleverly designed to evoke "Americana" (Blue Ridge, Kentucky, Galveston, Morgan Monroe, etc.). Just call 'em "Yamaha," or "Takamine," or "Suzuki," or whatever.

What if, instead of Sony or Toyota, the Japanese had called their products "Philco" or "Studebaker"? Unnecessary, because Japanese-made consumer electronics and automobiles have acquired a reputation for quality, and an Asian nameplate doesn't give the appearance of inferiority. With musical instruments, though, it still seems to be smart marketing to hide a product's Asian origins behind a somewhat misleading "American" label. This has nothing to do with "putting American (or Asian) workers out of business"; it's merely a plea for transparency.

[Pete Braccio]

Hi Allen,

So, this whole thread is based solely upon a line of text that Greg Boyd is using on his web site to try and move an old Flatiron?

So if this entire thread is just speculation and there are actually no facts to talk about then why are people talking as if it's all been set in stone? Why are we again bashing "big business" Gibson for its heartless business practices and its reckless tarnishing of the Flatiron name? I'm pretty sure I saw a couple of digs along these lines and a couple of "I'm not gonna ever buy a Gibson" bits in the above posts.

I agree that you have the right to complain about a company's decisions if they go against your sense of right or wrong, BUT, as far as I can tell, no decision has yet been made and/or announced. A three page rant against a company based upon a rumor goes against my sense of right and wrong.

Waiting for some actual facts,
Pete

[Desert Rose]

There is no reason to doubt that this action is unfolding, it fits perfectly with Henrys STRICT policy of keeping the Gibson name one hundred percent unquestioned made in America

Flatiron is an asset he owns, it stands to reason in this day and age that moving it to overseas production is the best of all worlds

AND Greg Boyd is not someone prone to starting or passing unfounded rumors, those of us in the industry often here the most important news long before the corporate people decide to make it public. When I worked at Fender r and d in the early eightys we had a direct connected mole at Gibson. They could have a closed door four person only executive secret meeting in Kalamazoo and before lunch time in Fullerton we were discussing the details of Henrys decisions, REALLY http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Scott

[Steve L]

I have a 1962 Epiphone Olympic electric guitar. It's essentially a Gibson 2 point Melody Maker from Kalamazoo. I put aftermarket hardware and pickups on it and it is a fabulous electric guitar because of the quality of wood and workmanship of the neck and body. It is completely unlike the Epiphone electric guitars of today.

I have on more than one occaision had someone come up and compliment my playing and comment on the sound I was getting only to have this person say it was a shame I couldn't "step up" to a Gibson or some other "quality" guitar.

I'm not particularly sensitive to the musings of the uninformed, but there is a sense of sadness about degrading the reputation of a company someone once upon a time worked very hard to build by using that name to brand a completely different product. It's like those talent agencies that wind up owning the name of a band and the next thing you know, some bar band is out there calling themselves "The Buffalo Springfield" or somethiing. It's legal, and they might be a good band. But are you in essence really seeing and hearing The Buffalo Springfield without Steve Stills, Neil Young, Richie Furay, or Jim Messina in the band?

[Yuletide]

Does anyone have any *factual* information about this? Any solid reason to believe that Flatiron will be made in China? I haven't been able to find it myself.

That isn't to say it's not true ... just that it's not worth getting worked up about if it's just a rumor. I'm not sure it's worth getting worked up about even if it's more than just a rumor, either. While we may think it's not fair to market a Chinese mandolin under a venerable American name, the Chinese might well think it's unfair that Americans just assume that if it's made in China it will not be a quality product.

Gibson apparently is doing with Baldwin pianos just what they may be doing with Flatiron, BTW. Their website says "Baldwin Zhongshan is Gibson’s first manufacturing base in China and mainly produces Baldwin, Hamilton and J&C Fisher’s upright pianos." Notice that none of these is a Chinese name. I was researching pianos a few years ago before buying a replacement for my 80 year old upright (ended up buying a Charles Walter, made in Indiana, and a great instrument for the price)and was amused at finding that most of the pianos made in China were sold under German or American names.

[pickinNgrinnin]

Hey Pete-

I don't think you are going to convince the Flatiron enthusiasts that the Chinese made "Flatirons" will be better or as good as the ones produced under Steve Carlson, Bruce Weber, Charlie Derrington.

If this even happens http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Michael H Geimer]

There are facts. a) Gibson has moved Flatiron around before. b) Gibson has moved other well known brands around before (Epiphone long ago, and Baldwin more recently). c) The Epiphone brand has become clouded as a result.

The last one can possibly be catagorized as "opinion", but I think there is plenty of support for the argument that the Epiphone brand has been 'watered down' by so many years of low-end products. The new Masterbuilt Epi's sound and play might fine, though. ( Why not market a mandolin as Epiphone Masterbuilt? )

It's not fair to claim that all this is just "bashing" or that this is a "polical axe grinding". There is evidence, there are rumours, and people have comments to make about both.

[fatt-dad]

'cause after all, this is a discussion forum. We are NOT journalists with a special creed or anything. . . . .

In all sincerity, I think it appropriate to have this discussion in a public forum. I just hope we remain civil and respectful.

fatt not-that-I'm-a-forum-cop-or-anything dad

[PCypert]

I'd find it interesting if this just were a posted rumor to bump the sale of a mando at Boyd's...would discourage me from buying for them if it was that's for sure. Not a fan of hard sales tactics.

I agree this should be discussed openly. We shouldn't get angry at Gibson yet...but we should let folks know how strongly we feel...heck we represent and influence a decent chunk of the market. Sure there's players out there who don't come by all the time, but I bet a lot have at least searched or stopped by when looking for a new axe. With so many vocally opposed to it I'd be that much more hesitant if I were in Gibson's shoes. But it could be too far along to matter too...time will tell.

Paul

[bgmando]

If this is true. The value of all Flatirons will drop, due to consumer confusion of what came from where.

Maybe that's good for pickers acquiring good instruments, which is good.

Still depressing that they can't think up an original name.

I'm not sure I like the Carolina, Blueridge, Johnson, Loar names used the same way, either.
Just seems like all things around us get cheapened, less real, less meaningful all the time.

[Greg H.]

I think among many of us on the Cafe Greg Boyd's reputation pretty much speaks for itself. If this were just an aimless rumor I feel quite confident that it wouldn't be on his website. Further, if one looks at some of the posts on the 1st page you can see it has been corroborated by Gibson employees (and since Big Joe has posted here I would think he would have refuted it if it were not the case).

That said, I'd be delighted to discover that I've started this thread, and all the resulting fuss, over a rumor that has no basis in fact.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[JEStanek]

I doubt the value of a US made Flatiron will drop when you sell here or to a reputable shop. Ebay sales, may experience some confusion resulting in lower sales prices. People in the know, know what they are buying...

Jamie

[Eric F.]

OK, I'll finally wade into these murky waters. Why would the value of all Flatirons drop? Some people are willing to pay a premium for a pre-Gibson Flatiron. How many times have you seen in the classifieds or on eBay the header "Pre-Gibson Flatiron" or "Carlson-signed Flatiron"? I doubt the reintroduction of the line would change that. Everyone who lists a Flatiron for sale knows he or she must say where and when it was made.

Greg Boyd knows a lot more about selling mandolins than I do, but I also don't understand why the new ones would make the old ones more desirable than they already are. They have a certain cachet with a certain segment of the mandolin-buying public, which is a small subset of the musical instrument-buying public. That's about it.

Me, I think Gibson can do whatever it wants with the name. It bought it. If you're still mad at the company for letting Lloyd Loar go, or debasing the Epiphone or Flatiron names, buy something else. There's plenty of fine mandolins out there that do not say "Gibson" on their headstocks.

Maybe the new Flatirons - IF there are new Flatirons - will be good, nicely priced mandolins. There's certainly room between the Epiphone mandos and Gibson's. On other threads, people are getting excited about the new Kentucky KM-1000, which may well be a good, nicely priced mandolin made in China. Why is that OK, but a Chinese-made Flatiron is not?

Finally, I understand why people get annoyed by names such as "Carolina" stamped on instruments made many thousands of miles from Carolina. But so many people get protectionist and insist that you buy only an instrument made in the States, it makes sense to not call your line of mandolins "The Yangtze."

[Michael H Geimer]

Protectionism is when governments put trade barriers in place in order to subsidize and support domestic enterprises.

Talk about consumer products, and critical discussions of the companies involved is a vital aspect of the free market. Totally different from protectionism, even if the discussion advocates domestic purchases over imports (at least as long the talk doesn't call for new laws or trade agreements). If there is free discussion and freedom of buying power among the population, it's not protectionism.

Several comments have been made to the effect of "So what, buy another brand.", but that attitude attempts to shut down the free discussion and is closer to protectionism in spirit than any of the critical comments about Flatiron, Gibson, et al.

Has anyone on this thread really said "Only buy American!"?

[Keely]

Kinda like when we bought our PT Cruiser a couple of weeks ago. We were telling the salesman how much we liked our old beater Volvo, as well as a few other import cars we've owned. The salesman got all het up about "Buy American!!!" and really pushed his Chrysler and Ford products, telling us that he only buys "American-made" cars.

Yup. The PT Cruiser we bought was made in Mexico. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[allenhopkins]

The PT Cruiser we bought was made in Mexico.

Had a similar experience, buying my first Dodge Caravan in 1986, when Lee Iaccocca (sp?) was going on TV pushing "Buy American" for Chrysler (and around the time Chrysler got a big US government bailout loan).

My "American" mini-van had a Mitsubishi engine, a body assembled in Canada, and Michelin tires from France. I believe the owner's manual was printed in the US.

Regarding what will happen to the values of "pre-Gibson" and "US-made-Gibson" Flatirons, the diversion of the "Epiphone" nameplate to Pac-rim imports hasn't dried up the market for old Stathopoulo-built Epiphones -- still some of the most collectable arch-top guitars -- or even for the Kalamazoo-made Epiphones that Gibson produced as an alternate line (as they did with Kel Kroydon, Kalamazoo, Recording King and other US-made alternate labels). I think what the first post hinted, was that US Flatirons may actually command a premium when imported Flatirons enter the market.

It's interesting that when American companies go overseas, many of them seem to retain their US brand identities, as if showing the American name makes the product more attractive in foreign countries. Yet when US importers bring Asian-made musical instruments into the US, they give them names that don't reflect the country of origin. It isn't just "Kentucky," "Blue Ridge," "Fullerton" -- how about "Alvarez," "Ibanez," or other pseudo-Spanish names?

No one feels he has to hide the "Yamaha" label on a piano or saxaphone, any more than I want to put duct tape over the "Honda" on my new Element. I'd give Gibson major props if they did call their hypothetical new import line "Yangtze."

[Eric F.]

Protectionism is when governments put trade barriers in place in order to subsidize and support domestic enterprises.

Talk about consumer products, and critical discussions of the companies involved is a vital aspect of the free market. Totally different from protectionism, even if the discussion advocates domestic purchases over imports (at least as long the talk doesn't call for new laws or trade agreements). If there is free discussion and freedom of buying power among the population, it's not protectionism.

Several comments have been made to the effect of "So what, buy another brand.", but that attitude attempts to shut down the free discussion and is closer to protectionism in spirit than any of the critical comments about Flatiron, Gibson, et al.

Has anyone on this thread really said "Only buy American!"?
Yes, I understand what protectionism is. I used the word in this case to describe the sentiments often expressed in these discussions. Perhaps "jingoistic" would have been a better word.

To me, there is at least an undercurrent of "Buy only American" or "American is always better" in many of these threads, including this one. I'm not advocating buying a Chinese-made instrument, I just get uncomfortable with people jumping on the "USA" bandwagon when it's pretty much impossible to buy only stuff made in the States. I, too, prefer to shop locally and support local artists, farmers and other businesses. It's just not always realistic.

In another thread, someone's mocking Ted for not being Guitar Center. We want our $200 mandolins, great customer service and our sense of national pride as well, I suppose.

[Michael H Geimer]

Well, Eric I don't know what to say. To me, there is wisdom in buying locally that is distinct from jingoism (a better term), and on top of that, my personal experience leads me to prefer U.S. made mandolins. It is frustrating to so often be accused of bias in these discussions.

OTOH: I drive a Subaru, and love it! I talk about it like I talk about Mid-mo's (nothing but praise).

The way these accusations of bias get tossed about, there is simply no way for someone to hold a genuine opinion without comming across as a nation-bigot. It's frustrating. I know you're not out to 'smeer' anyone. Neither am I out to 'smeer' forgein nations, or Gibson.

- Benig ... who has family, and eveything on the other side of the Pacific Rim.

[Eric F.]

Hey, Benig, I'm not trying to get into it with you! Just musing. I don't mean to sound belligerent. I'm on steroids for an amazingly nasty case of poison ivy, so maybe it's 'roid rage!

I too prefer to buy locally, and American if possible. I buy local produce and meats at the neighborhood co-op and at the farmers market. I plant native plants in my yard. I have a mandolin made in Utah. My car was made in Japan, but I inherited that.

My other mandolin is a Kentucky. I bought it years ago when I couldn't afford anything else. That's the problem - what American mando could I have bought for $250? My wife's car is a Pontiac with a Toyota engine. I dunno what that makes it.

I'd love to buy only locally. But it's unrealistic. I have no problem with people suggesting "buy American." Again though, it's not always realistic. It's also increasingly unrealistic to assume that buying American automatically means getting better quality. The Asian makers are starting to catch up, and I hear there are some pretty decent luthiers in Australia and Great Britain. ...

Cheers,

Eric

[Michael H Geimer]

Hey ... I was never bent out of whack by anything you wrote (and hopefully vice-versa). We're not "getting into it" IMO. Just musing.

RE: Poison Ivy. Yikes! Thankfully my allergies have changed, but as a youth I was hyper-allergic to Poison Oak. Bad, bad reactions. As the saying goes, "I feel your pain." Hang in there.

[Big Joe]

I have not responded because this thread is all useless speculation. Gibson is not currently producing Flatiron instruments. Whether they will in the future is hard to say and where they would be made is hard to say. I can only tell you we do not currently have any produced. I hear these speculative statements all the time and they all come from "Gibson Employees who really know what is going on". It would seem these guys who know what is going on don't know too much becuase most of the speculation never materializes. I will tell you what I know when I know it. Until then, it is useless speculation.

[Eric F.]

Benig, we're cool. When I was a kid I pretty much lived in the woods and fields, and I always got poison ivy bad. Then I seemed to develop an immunity to it. Apparently that's gone or else I have a super-powerful strain out back of my house. My arms look I'm the victim of a chemical explosion.

Joe, what would we do without useless speculation?
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[allenhopkins]

Yeah, but it's interesting, whether "useless" or not. And really, in response to Big Joe's posting, we do have a possible model for future marketing, in the way Gibson chose to handle its "Epiphone" nameplate. Interestingly, they've now revived the old Stathopoulo "Masterbilt" designation, for a line of top-drawer imported instruments. As someone suggested above, perhaps "Masterbilt" would be an appropriate designation for this hypothetical line of import mandolins, rather than "Flatiron."

[cooper4205]

i was one of the ones that heard it from a Gibson employee at the showcase and i stated that on this thread, along with the disclaimer that it should be taken with a grain of salt since he was just a showroom employee and not privy to inside info (i wouldn't think anyway).

the whole thing came about a few months ago when i asked him if the Flatiron protoypes that were made a year or two before would ever see production. He told me he didn't think so because the Flatiron brand was about to be outsourced to China.

if anything, maybe the salespeople should be told not to engage in that kind of speculative talk about the flatiron line, especially if there is no truth to it (as of now anyway).

[Tom C]

Most asked Flatiron question will be "Is that a Montana Flatiron, Nashville or China?"
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[PCypert]

so with this quote from Big Joe wouldn't it seem prudent for Greg Boyd's to take that disclaimer off and lower that price down to normal Festival prices since the impending doom isn't so near and now isn't the must buy time for vintage flatirons anymore than last month?

Paul

[Greg H.]

Actually $2600-$2700 is around the standard for Flatiron Festivals. I think Charles Johnson is asking $2700 for the two he's got. If you get one significantly below that you've got a great deal.

[cooper4205]

there is one on e-bay that gruhn appraised at $2500.

[wsm]

I have heard of these Chinese flatirons, I think they are called a Wok.

[bgmando]

Yamaha is an example of good, honest decency in instrument making and the names of such instruments. I'm glad somebody mentioned them.

A friend of mine just bought a wonderful high-end Yamaha off eBay for a cheap price. It's a fine musical instrument with a straight name on the headstock.

[thistle3585]

Does anyone know if there is a private label, contract instrument builder in the US? Kind of like what the Larson's did in the early 1900's. I wonder if a US production company, that doesn't have the overhead, could be priced competitively enough to keep the production in the US? Even if the US company is 10% higher than its Chinese counterpart, do you think the "Made in the USA" label could be as powerful as brand name recognition when it comes to marketing?

[Walter Newton]

Intersting tidbit - Yamaha was founded as a musical instrument company in 1897.

[mythicfish]

"so with this quote from Big Joe wouldn't it seem prudent for Greg Boyd's to take that disclaimer off and lower that price down to normal Festival prices since the impending doom isn't so near and now isn't the must buy time for vintage flatirons anymore than last month?"

Paul
If you're interested in the Flatiron Festival at Boyd's,
make him an offer that you feel is appropriate. If you're not,
then you're just putting your nose where it doesn't belong.
Curt

[Big Joe]

Greg is a fine man and I in no way will infer anything he says is not cool. I have not seen his website. I only state what I know about the product. I would encourage us to let Greg run his business his way. He has always been a man of honor from everything I have ever known about him...and he is a friend of mine and the mandolin community. Again, I have always shared what I know when I know it. Thank you.

[PCypert]

How am I putting my nose somewhere it doesn't belong exactly? If there's no official word of this yet, but said seller is using that information to push a product out....I think its our duty in fair trade to ask him to take that off...other folks who just happen by his site might make a decision to buy off of that false info they might not normally have.

And yes I'm mildly interested in the mando, but feel the price is too high and I don't want to pay a premium because of something that isn't near official yet. I've dealt with Greg in the past and the shop is great...top notch...which is why I'm holding them to a higher standard. If someone was saying buy this one from this builder because he's lost his hand in a saw accident and won't be making any more mandos...but the builder was still making mandos we'd be on them too...same deal. Until there's official word or he states his source it should come down. It's FALSE advertising.

Paul

[fatt-dad]

Relax. . . . Give Mr. Boyd a call. You may get better answers on that particular mandolin.

f-d

[PCypert]

Hard to call from Thailand http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif he's asleep when I'm up.

It kind of bothers me that other folks are ok with this. It is technically lying unless he states how he knows and hard facts since we have a Gibson guy here stating there's nothing in the works at the moment and this has been up for a while. I'll shoot him an email though and quote Big Joe's comments since no one else seems to care. This may indeed end up happening still and maybe the rumors are true, but as is now anyone could say just about anything about flatiron and it would hold the same weight. It seems slightly shady to me...like if I said Bill Bussman was getting on in years and about to kick it so buy his mandolins now while you have the chance. (Sorry Bill). Or if I said I'm going blind by the end of the year so book my photography now wile you can http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Bottom line it's wrong...there's worse things you can do for sure, but it's still wrong.

Paul

[cooper4205]

his prices aren't that bad. charles johnson has one for $2750, he sold two others at the same list price- but probably a little less, i don't know.

most of the flatiron festivals F's being sold privately range from around $2300 to $2500, with the occasional one for around $2000. it's pretty much expected for the dealers to ask a higher price, since they have more expenses (usually).

$2650 is a fair price, and most likely you'd be able to haggle him down a few hundred dollars.

i just don't see how you think the price at boyd's is unfair or too high, when its not that far off (and is even less than) other flatirons of similar build that are for sale

[PCypert]

I'm not raising issue with the price asked (though it does bother me some with the finish wear on the neck and other minor issues...I'd put it at 22-2300 tops)...the issue I have is with using the rumor to try and push the sale...."buy your flatirons now as they're releasing Chinese ones in 2007"....If Big Joe has stated nothing is in the works that would put 2007 at highly questionable even if the rumor turns out to be true....

Paul

[bgmando]

Eastman -- another example of a somewhat original name for an instrument line, and the east in it even rings true.

[Greg H.]

Well, I guess I don't take too hard a line on Greg Boyd's use there (and he may of gotten it from a distributor, I don't know) since logic says they're either going to be made overseas or they're not going to be made at all (since Gibson wasn't too thrilled with the scenario of competing with themselves when they were making them here).

Note that I use 'Logic says'. Therefore my source on that is my own thick skull.

[PCypert]

Well I emailed Greg and according to his sources it "started" in February 2007....so we have a post from BigJoe saying nothing is going on with the Flatiron product line at this time and an as now annonymous source saying things have started in February 2007...I'm not weighing in my thoughts anymore, but interesting times...someone knows or doesn't know something...can both be right at the same time http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Maybe using Flatiron tech in a differently named mandolin for Gibson? Who knows...a mando-mystery.

I'm really not trying to soil anyone's name or reputation...just want folks to take internet reporting seriously...I've seen folks damaged by people casually posting rumors and the way that spreads like wildfire...with information a click away it's important we go out of our way to ensure the info we're passing along is solid and tested/true.

Paul

[Walter]

Paul,
You seen to be concerned that people are posting "rumors", but you don't seem hesitate in your post above to accuse Greg of "lying". #Maybe you should consider your own statements before you accuse others.

[mythicfish]

" ...just want folks to take internet reporting seriously..."

Old newsreporters maxim: If your mother says she loves you, be sure to get third-party confirmation.
Now, which way did that flying pig go?

Curt

[Big Joe]

Rumors are always flying about Gibson products and its subsidiary products. That is nothing new. Some of them actually become true, but most do not. Could there be an imported Flatiron at some time in the future? Who knows. It has been discussed and several options have been included, including European imports. What will occur in the future? We will just have to wait to find out. I will only state what I know to be fact concerning these issues. There is always lots of speculation and that seems to make the cafe readers joyful. Just always take what someone who "knows" with a grain of salt. Until it is announced publicly it is just another idea someone may have passed around that will not likely ever see the light of day.

[mythicfish]

Glad to get the straight poop from the horse's mouth.
Not a pretty metaphor, but in the words of Homer (Simpson, that is)
"Well, THAT'S a relief ... or IS it?

Curt

[jefflester]

Glad to get the straight poop from the horse's mouth.
Apparently poop isn't one of the banished words. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[DuffDaddy]

Having owned and sold one, Nashville Flatirons are certainly very worthy instruments, and in my opinion prices in the $2000+ range are reasonable, and I would expect to see a markup from a retail outfit, as opposed to an eBay sale where the seller has no overhead. Buying from Greg might give you, for instance, an approval period, and a relatively warm, fuzzy feeling that if it passed Greg's filter, it's probably worthy of your consideration, and provides assurance of quality - none of that is true with an eBay sale. After that it would be condition, relative (subjective) quality, etc. and othe factors. To me, what Gibson's plans are is irrelevant to the purchase decision.

[PCypert]

Walter,
I was never starting a rumor that Greg was lying. I was only posting his claims and comparing them to BigJoe's. Not a rumor...just posting hard facts from both. Greg claims units in production for two months. BigJoe says nothing going right now. I don't pretend to know the truth, but I would personally remove the statement with such statements coming straight from the horse's mouth. I wouldn't say Greg is lying by any means. I don't think he's maliciously putting the info up or purposefully trying to dupe people...but I do think he's posted too soon and on very shaky grounds and it's made quite a stir. So for that I'd take it down.

Paul

[jjboone101]

Looks like the Flatiron on the Boyd site no longer carries any reference to China....

[allenhopkins]

Hey, I just had a thought: maybe the rumor was garbled, and the real skinny is that the new Flatirons are going to be made from china! You know, in response to the new carbon-fiber mandolins, a totally ceramic instrument!

I can't wait for their Wedgewood and Dansk models, described as real "banjo kilners." There will be discussions of the acoustic effects of different glazes, etc.

So when will Gibson start dishing out the information? Of course, it may take some time to set the table for this new development, but we expect a full plate of new Flatware -- er, Flatirons -- to be forthcoming...

[JEStanek]

Don't play Greek music with a china instrument... Oooopah! Master Model shards!

Jamie

[Ken Berner]

Perhaps a Flatiron brand "thunderbowl" (chamber pot) mandolin made of china would be in the works. This might satisfy some bowl-back fans, while adding a touch of class, which is really what we need, as this subject has definitely gone to doo-doo!

[allenhopkins]

this subject has definitely gone to doo-doo!

Always happens when we get to Page 5 (except for the photo archive threads, and the one about "pancake" mandolins).

[fatt-dad]

Always happens when we get to Page 5 (except for the photo archive threads, and the one about "pancake" mandolins).
Don't forget Haiku. . . .

[Jim MacDaniel]

Good observation:
Food for thought turns to doo doo;
Biology fact

[Bill Snyder]

Do you ever read through several pages of a thread only to think you wasted several minutes of your time?

[Walter]

Well, after all that, Greg Boyd now appears to have been correct about Chinese manufactured Flatirons.

It is interesting to now read back on this thread to see how Big Joe handled this issue... Like a politician I think...

Anyway, It is another milestone in the history of Flatiron and mandolin manufacturing in general.

Will Gibson be next??? (I just had to add that...)

[JEStanek]

Joe works for a big company. He may have been in the dark or not allowed to publicly comment on a new line before an official announcement. In my large corporate culture, discussing a new product launch prior to it becoming official can be grounds for termination as it can border on insider information. Somehow I doubt Big Joe is part of the inner machinations of the Gibson Corporate PR machine.

Jamie

[Ken Berner]

I just got home from MerleFest this afternoon, and it was a blast. On another thread, I mentioned that I played the new Flatiron F made in China. A Gibson dealer had it on display along with a custom F and an F9 and A9. The Flatiron was made of all solid woods and sounded better than the top Eastmans I played just a few minutes prior to picking the Gibson products. The fit and finish wasn't bad and for about $800 you probably can't find another F to beat it.