Took my first fiddle lesson today

[Jack Roberts]

I think I can play mandolin better!

Still can't play fiddle though...

[staggarlee]

What about the fiddle lesson helped with your mando playing?

[mandopete]

How to use the bow on the mandolin?

I've been thinking about taking fiddle lessons and I even bought a cheap fiddle, but I haven't gotten up and started lessons yet.

I'm curious too about that effect it may (or may not) not have on mandolin playing. #I've always felt the fiddle was more of a melodic instrument than the mandolin.

[Jim Garber]

I know that some of this has been discussed on other threads...

I took up the mandolin and fiddle about the same time. I actually concentrated on fiddle only for a time to get those eccentricities of playing under my fingers.

While fiddle may seem more melodic, having a good knowledge of at least two-note chords helps your playing esp if you use double stops. I often visualize the mandolin fretboard while playing the fiddle to make sure I know where I am.

Jim

[OregonMike]

I often strum my fiddle when I am trying to remember a song I know on the mandolin. I still speak fiddle as a second language and think in mandonese.

I like to cross practice on both as it mixes things up and can get me past a rut on either instrument.

What I still can't figure out is why folks really seem to enjoy my mando playing right after they hear me on fiddle!

[JGWoods]

What I still can't figure out is why folks really seem to enjoy my mando playing right after they hear me on fiddle!
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Hmmmm happens to me too...

also, a little rosin on the fingers and the pick stays put.

[John Flynn]

It's not how well you play. Here's the test: You are now a full-fledged fiddler if you:

> Force everyone to play only the tunes you know in the key you play them best in.

> Play so fast that people think all your mistakes are variations.

> Give encyclopedic lectures about the origin of tunes, like "Yeah, that's an 'ol Lizard Smith tune I learned from Clipper Johnson at the Tumbleweed Festival in Monkey's Knuckles, Nebraska a couple of years ago..." Like anyone cares!

> Have an obtuse fiddler nickname of your own, like "Lizard" or "Clipper."

> Believe the rest of the band is there just to back you and that even the singer is only there to fill up time in between your solos.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Jack Roberts]

What about the fiddle lesson helped with your mando playing?
Well, the cynical side of me says that my mandolin playing just seems better compared to my fiddle playing, but there is more to it. Since I play a lot of "fiddle tunes" I thought I would try the fiddle to see how they are played on the instrument.

The bow is much more demanding than the pick in keeping rhythm. It is a small catastrophe to be in the wrong place on the bow when a half note is coming up, for example. Since most of the first lesson was dealing with how to hold and move the bow properly for various types of rhythms, the timing of these note combinations is now more real to me than just seeing them printed, or even hearing them. The bow makes them very physical and very real.

I tried playing "Bonaparte's retreat" for my teacher on the fiddle. He recognized the tune, but of course I was doing it all wrong with both my fingering on my left hand (easy to correct) and the bowing technique (very hard to correct.) So he gave me a simpler tune to work on (Boil them cabbages). I came home and played both on the mandolin with more strict attention to rhythm. I thought in both those pieces speed was important, but they sound much better than before now that I am focused on rhythm.

Now if I can get the intonation right on the fiddle...

Does any of this make sense?

[catmandu2]

That's pretty good Mando Johnny. By that criteria, I'm pretty much a fiddler! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[bgjunkie]

Yeah streborkcaj, that make sense. #I recently started learning fiddle (not taking lessons) and understand what you are saying about rythm. #The bow makes that a serious challenge.

Something else that I have found fiddle helping me with is learning notes and reading standard notation. #I started learning mandolin using tab (used a lot of tab on guitar as well) and found that I alway thought in string/fret# rather than note. #That makes improve difficult (for me at least). #The fiddle, having no frets to rely on, has forced me to learn the notes I am playing.

[brunello97]

It's not how well you play. Here's the test: You are now a full-fledged fiddler if you:

> Force everyone to play only the tunes you know in the key you play them best in.

> Play so fast that people think all your mistakes are variations.

> Give encyclopedic lectures about the origin of tunes, like "Yeah, that's an 'ol Lizard Smith tune I learned from Clipper Johnson at the Tumbleweed Festival in Monkey's Knuckles, Nebraska a couple of years ago..." Like anyone cares!

> Have an obtuse fiddler nickname of your own, like "Lizard" or "Clipper."

> Believe the rest of the band is there just to back you and that even the singer is only there to fill up time in between your solos.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Ouch, MJ, but true, so true. I've dabbled on the fiddle quite a bit and find it enjoyable (though I can't say the same for those listening.) I like going fretless. I ought to do it more.

Mick

[jim_n_virginia]

I started taking fiddle lessons about a year ago. After a few weeks of the basics like how to hold the bow, fiddle, bowing straight etc. I could almost immediately scratch out a number of tunes because as we all know the notes are the same on the fiddle and mandolin but I am learning you don't always play exactly the same note on the fiddle as you do the mandolin and bowing technique is another whole thing in itself.

One thing the fiddle has helped me out in is that because you are really forced to concentrate on your tone (because of no frets) I find my ear for music is way more sharp.

My teacher said that you can scratch out a tune in a week but it takes two years before it sounds good. There is a lot of truth in that. The same fiddle tunes I am playing on the mandolin I am playing on the fiddle and some of them after mucho practice are starting to be bearable enough that have been taking my fiddle to two local jams but I am nowhere near ready to gig yet. But someday soon I hope!

And one last thing... I find practicing with the fiddle almost zen like, it's almost a meditative thing. As much as I love my mandolin I really love practicing on the fiddle.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[batman]

I'm with ya Jim. I played mando for 20 yrs and about 18 months ago started fiddle. I as well can find the left hand prettyquick. bow is a different story.I kinda got Lou Reid to show me some stuff about position playing and dbl stops which helped alot. I also got a better fiddle and bow from Ron Stewart and now I know it's all me and not the instrument holding me back. I get get enough of it. It's great. Don

[Jack Roberts]

After three weeks of owning the fiddle, here are my comments:

> I use the mandolin to teach myself the song before I pickup the fiddle. Makes it go faster.

>Fiddling helps me read notation more quickly, even when playing mandolin.

>I decided not to learn fiddle tab. It seems more complicated than notation, and since fiddling is a very "by ear" experience, notation is better for me.

>I have a more natural "swing" to playing the mandolin now. Noticed by others.

>Fiddle is not as hard as I thought. Although I still sound like two tomcats in a fight, after three lessons, I can play the two tunes the teacher is trying to teach me, plus a bunch of others that I am just noodling through. "Irish Washerwoman" and "Garryowen" for St. Patrick's day, for example.

>Mandolin is still my first love. I would not dare to play Bach on a fiddle (yet).

[MandoCelt]

Interesting thoughts. I've worked on becoming a fiddler for the past 2 years. I heard that the mando uses the same tuning & was lucky enough to borrow an old beater mando from a coworker to see if I liked it.
So now I own a Morgan Monroe A style, which I really like - this one has good tone and really decent sustain. After I practice my fiddle I ususally pull out the mando - to relax with when I'm not done with my music for the night. So would this make me a middler?

[Santiago]

I played violin for 20 years before picking up mando years later. Done right, like ol' Vassar, fiddle is a beautiful instrument with great literature from which us Mando players benefit greatly, but I've heard so many "good" fiddler's playing badly out of tune and trying to cover it with slides, etc. When I see a fiddler in a band, my first reaction is "is this going to hurt my ears again." Some times, I'm pleasantly surprised, but not usually. Thank God for frets.

[Jack Roberts]

.... I've heard so many "good" fiddler's playing badly out of tune and trying to cover it with slides, etc. ...
Yep, that describes me pretty well, except for the "good" part. Right now the only people who have to hear me are my poor long-suffering wife and son, and my teacher. My wife is a good sport, my son already knows how hard it is to play fiddle, so he is understanding, and my teacher gets paid.

[JeffD]

I've always felt the fiddle was more of a melodic instrument than the mandolin.
I think this really gets to the point.

The mandolin can be either a melodic instrument or a chord rhythem instrument, or both or something in between. The fiddle is predominantly melodic - and so learning the fiddle helps one to see the mandolin more melodically, and perhaps play more melodic leads with it, or to have a greater feeling for how to back up the lead fiddler because the melody is just under the mandolin players fingers as well.

When I started fiddle my fiddle teacher put me on a mandolin diet for many months because it was getting in the way of learning the fiddle.

[ApK]

The mandolin can be either a melodic instrument or a chord rhythem instrument, or both or something in between. The fiddle is predominantly melodic
I'm not sure I see the rhythm role of mando as TOO much greater than the rhythm role of a fiddle, only because, especially in bluegrass, the fiddle chops and drones quite a bit, and neither one, let's be honest, is up there with a bass or a guitar as far as featured rhythm parts are concerned.

Nonetheless, one the reasons I took up fiddle was to force myself to learn to play something other than the rhythm strums I do on guitar, and to learn to read music. I'm going out of my way to AVOID just playing chop chords and drones, or I'll fall into that rut and stop progressing on the lead stuff. Forutnately, when i get the urge to chop, I can pick up the mandolin and not feel like I'm cheating!

ApK

[MandoCelt]

Due to primarily fiddling, I might not have as much of an issue playing "lead" style as opposed to strumming and "chopping" (-whatever that is). Hopefully I'll get some solid stuff to work on at the Mando camp in April.
I'd like to be able to do both. I'd like to be able to play fiddle like Nat MacMaster too but I don't think I'll live to see 150.

[Clamdigger]

I am just learning to play the fiddle and although probably not the best idea, I am trying to do it without a teacher. My question is does anyone or everyone use a shoulder rest?

[ApK]

I do. Most (but not all) people that I've played with do. My last teacher did not. He just put a piece of cloth on his shoulder.

[farmerjones]

Clamdigger -
Alot depends on your neck. Very few folks can properly pinch the lower bout of the fiddle between their clavicle and chin. My shoulder rest alows me to completely let go of the fiddle with my left hand. I don't have to support with my left hand at all. It leaves the left hand free to just finger notes. Plus they act like a tone-guard.
Good Luck,
Lizard-clipper Jones

Actual fiddle jam dialog: "This is a pre-civilwar tune in B flat. It's sometimes refered to as Up Jumped the Devil, or Toothpaste in a Tube, or the Brussel Sprout Reel. But i call it Wendy Jumps When Her Skirt Blows Up."

[olgraypat]

Well, I'll go ahead and ask the question everybody is wanting to know...does fullerton make a fiddle?

[Tom Smart]

Clamdigger,

I can't tell you whether or not to use a shoulder rest. Lots of people seem to think they're virtually mandatory. I have learned to hate them. At the risk of muddying the waters, here's my experience:

I played with shoulder rests for many years. I could never get comfortable. My neck and back would start to ache, so I'd go out and shop for another shoulder rest with a different design. I'd swear by the new one for awhile, until I'd start having problems with that one and go shopping again.

Finally, I decided to try going without a shoulder rest for awhile to see what that was like. It took me about a week to adjust, but now I'm completely sold on going rest-less. Speaking strictly for myself, here are a few things I discovered:

1. Every shoulder rest I had tried (probably 5 or 6) was causing *more* pain in my neck than going rest-less because I was clamping the fiddle between my chin and shoulder, causing a lot of tension and limiting mobility. Without a rest, my left hand does half of the work, so I can play with a lot more relaxation in my back and neck. Instead of being locked into one tiring posture, I have the freedom to move around for better comfort and balance. The fiddle is balanced between collarbone and left hand, and the head is just there to steady it--not to clamp it in position.

2. Because a shoulder rest raises the height of the fiddle, I had been raising my right shoulder to bring the bowing arm up higher, causing a lot of tension on that side as well. I would tire quickly, and I'd let the scroll-end of the fiddle slump down toward the floor to get the bow arm at a more comfortable angle. This bad habit led to other bad habits. Without a rest, the fiddle sits lower and more level, the right shoulder relaxes, and the bowing motion is more natural.

3. When using a shoulder rest and supporting the fiddle by clamping it down with my head, my left thumb had nothing to do. It would tend to fly around randomly, pulling the rest of my fingers out of position and screwing up my intonation. My left wrist would also tend to collapse, impeding shifts and causing even more intonation problems. Without the shoulder rest, the thumb and the base of the forefinger have to do their part supporting the neck, which leads to a more "correct" left hand position and prevents the flying thumb. My intonation is much better as a result (though it can always use more work).

4. I don't have to deal with fitting a shoulder rest into my case, or having it constantly fall off the fiddle while I'm playing.

5. My fiddle sounds a lot better without one. The tone is more focused, easier to control, and I can get a full range of dynamics. When I used a shoulder rest, it was difficult to play softly without getting a skittery attack, while louder playing caused all kinds of unwanted overtones and random noise.

I have a long neck, and I did build up the height of my chinrest to take up some of the space that used to be taken up by the shoulder rest.

For me, losing the shoulder rest was probably the single best equipment-related thing I have ever done to improve my posture and overall playing. Your experience may be the complete opposite. What I'm saying is, keep an open mind and be willing to experiment and adjust as you gain more experience with the instrument.

[Clamdigger]

Tom Smart: Today I sold a Lyon & Healey mandolin to one of the best violin players in the country, if not the world. he had been playing professionally for over 30 years. Due to a very serious illness, he had to stop playing violin. But, he can play the mandolin and after only two years, you should hear him play. That said, I made the comment that I should have brought the fiddle down so he could adjust my shoulder rest. He said "forget the shoulder rest and use a wash cloth. The shoulder rest holds the violin in the same position all the time and causes bad habits". Thanks for the advice.
Clamdigger.

[ApK]

Tom Smart: #Today I sold a Lyon & Healey mandolin to one of the best violin players in the country, if not the world. he had been playing professionally for over 30 years. #Due to a very serious illness, he had to stop playing violin. But, he can play the mandolin and after only two years, you should hear him play. #That said, I made the comment that I should have brought the fiddle down so he could adjust my shoulder rest. #He said "forget the shoulder rest and use a wash cloth. #The shoulder rest holds the violin in the same position all the time and causes bad habits". #Thanks for the advice.
Clamdigger.
I certainly wouldn't want to risk neck strain because of what one player says. I'll show you two other great fiddlers who say the should rest is important.
I think it's far more important what's comfortable to you than what another person does.
I think it's safe to say, though, that if you can hold the fiddle comfortably and securely without a shoulder rest, then is no need to use one.

[Clamdigger]

APK: You are right but just starting out, I find the whole thing very confusing and that is why I asked. I am going to pretty much try to filter it all out. Thanks

[Clyde Clevenger]

I've found that I can play anything I know on the mandolin on the fiddle. My friends and family (even my dog) don't think so.

[Tom Smart]

I certainly wouldn't want to risk neck strain because of what one player says. I'll show you two other great fiddlers who say the should rest is important.
In my case, using a shoulder rest was *causing* neck pain. The only thing that finally cured the pain was removing the shoulder rest and learning to hold the fiddle balanced between my collarbone and left hand, instead of clamping it with my head.

Here's what I think in a nutshell: The most important thing when learning to play violin is posture. Both hands need the freedom to do their jobs without any undue tension, and that means being poised and supple in your shoulders, arms, neck, across your back, and even down to your hips and feet. Learn to hold the violin and bow with good posture and no stress, and you're halfway down the road to being a violinist.

Some people find their best posture with a shoulder rest, and some without. If you use one, it should be as an aid to good posture, not as substitute for it.

Keep in mind that guys like Tartini and Paganini didn't even have chin rests, let alone shoulder rests. Would they have used them if they had been available? Who knows? Maybe. But my point is: posture comes first.

[JeffD]

I do. #Most (but not all) people that I've played with do. #My last teacher did not. #He just put a piece of cloth on his shoulder.
I know several fiddlers who use a bath sponge and a rubber band.

[fiddle5]

I've been a fiddle player for many years and the topic of Rest vs No Rest is kind of silly. Fiddles are generally all the same shape, but people are not. Players with long or slender necks find a better fit when used with a shoulder rest, where the ones with short necks are more comfortable without one. Many rests have adjustments to better the individuals fit.

As for effects on tone, some say that a shoulder rest dampens the sound, whereas just as many others say that it makes the tone better such as a ToneGuard on a mando.

If it holds and plays well by itself, great, if not, use a rest.

[250sc]

I can't play without supporting the neck with my left hand without a shoulder rest. As to developing pains while playing, it doesn't matter what instrument your playing. If it hurts, stop and analyze why and make changes.

[Mark Normand]

Fiddle music is threaded deeply in our cajun culture down here. I love playing mine, we usually tune 'em down one whole note, so its easier to play with "C" cajun accordians, which are quite common.
The doublestops and chords on a slow waltz are so pretty, its a zen thing.

Shoulder rest for me too.

[MandoCelt]

I have a long neck so a rest is mandatory for me. I like the Bonmusica which is adjustable to the individual musician...a big plus. Wouldn't use any other kind at this time.
Fortunately, I don't need a shoulder rest w/my mando...:D

[mandomick]

I started playing the fiddle a little less than 2 yrs ago and just stumbled on to a good practice tool.
I can use my Butch B. Blugrass mando instructional videos for fiddle practice. For each song, he shows you the melody and then chops the chords so you can play along. I just started playing the fiddle to his back up and it works out great, especially if you try to learn your mando tunes on fiddle.