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humblemex
Feb-26-2007, 3:15pm
I've started this topic as a place to share photos and memories of the birth and growth of "Dawg" music (and by extension "New Acoustic Music") and the mandolin revival of the 1970s.

My clumsy attempt to define this form would be something like "acoustic instrumental music that integrates many genres, including bluegrass, jazz, classical and ethnic strains, into a seamless whole to create something new. Pieces are often composed with strict written parts performed by virtuoso musicians and combined with wide sections left open for improvisation." I welcome a refinement of this definition from anyone, because I'm sure it means more than what I've come up with.

Though there were hints and examples of the form before the landmark "The David Grisman Quintet" album (aka Kaleidoscope F-5) released in 1977, I believe that album codified the form and launched a thousand ships. Thus the title of this topic, which also happens to be one of my favorite Dawg tunes. It is not meant to be strictly limited to David Grisman though my contributions will primarily focus on him and the musicians he has worked with over the years both in and outside of his band.

I was extremely fortunate to be in the right place at the right time to befriend, interview, and photograph many of the artists who created this music. Since a previous topic has confirmed that there are a lot of us old f*rts here, I know there are others who witnessed this birth and were as dumbstruck as I by the DGQ and the other great musicians who have contributed to its growth. Two I personally know of and shared experiences with are Arthur Stern and Bruce Harvie. To really make this work, I implore them and all others who were changed by this music to contribute their memories and photos. In particular, I would really like to hear from Niles and others across the pond on its international impact and their personal approach to the mandolin.

The images I will post have been sitting in my files for as long as 30+ years. Many have been published but many more have never been seen. I can't think of a better bunch of folks to share them with or who would appreciate them more. My only ground rule is that they stay here in the Cafe. Please do not post them on any other forum or website without asking me first. They are copyrighted, and I ask that you respect that. If you know people with photos and memories to share who are not on this forum, please direct them here. Let's create a collective history right here on the Café.

And, now, on with the show.

humblemex
Feb-26-2007, 3:17pm
I knew who David Grisman was from his work with the Dead, Old and In The Way, and Maria Muldaur, but I didn’t get knocked over the head until I saw a version of the Great American String Band play at the Golden Gate Bluegrass Festival in September of 1974. The band that night consisted of Richard Greene on fiddle, David Nichtern on guitar, Jerry Garcia on banjo, and Taj Mahal on bass. I’d never heard anything like it, but I recognized the elements. I was particularly knocked out by the Hot Club stuff and David’s tunes, and it immediately set me on a significantly deeper path into acoustic string music. I dug out everything available of Django and the Hot Club in the Guitar Player library, got turned on to Eddie Lang and Joe Venuti, and re-awoke my interest in bluegrass.
I didn’t see David play again until July of 1976. This time it was a gig billed as the Great American Music Band, a one-shot at San Francisco's Great American Music Hall featuring Dawg, Tony Rice , J. D. Crowe, Richard Greene, Jerry Douglas, and Todd Phillips on bass. They were great, of course, but in the middle of the show, David announced he had a new band he was recording with that had two mandolins, and introduced the David Grisman Quintet with Tony, Darol, Todd, and Bill Amatneek. They only played two or three tunes, but I was hammered by the sound and the concept. Unfortunately, I was so captured by the music, I forgot to take many pictures. I’ve got only three frames of that first sighting. I can’t remember what tunes they played but I know one of them was “Ricochet” because one frame has David, Todd, and Darol all playing mandolin. I couldn’t believe how complete the vision and execution was. I was an instant Dawghead.

SternART
Feb-26-2007, 6:26pm
Jon, there were a few other GASB gigs with the lineup of:
Great American String Band
* Jerry Garcia - banjo, vocals
* David Grisman - mandolin, vocals
* David Nichtern - guitar, vocals
* Richard Greene - fiddle
* Taj Mahal - bass
* Buell Neidlinger - bass (4-26-1974 to 6-13-1974)
Their set lists looked like this:
Colored Aristocracy, Cedar Hill, I'll Be A Gambler If You Deal The Cards
My Plastic Banana Is Not Stupid, Moonlight Waltz
Swing '42, Methodist Preacher
Set II
Limehouse Blues, Bud's Bounce, Dawg's Bull
Russian Lullaby, Virgin's Lament, Swing '42
Drink Up And Go Home, Dawg's Rag

I know Maria Mauldaur played with them at a few gigs & they opened for the Grateful Dead at least once. There are 4 or 5 tapes floating around. I saw them at the Keystone Berkeley twice, back when Maria had a hit with Midnight at the Oasis, but she wasn't with them all the time. Buell Neidlinger was in there for a few gigs too, on bass. There were a few later gigs at the Great American Music Hall in SF and the band took on the name of the venue, or Great American Music Band. I saw two or three gigs there in 1975. This was without Jerry & Taj, a band fronted by David & Richard & really the precurser of the DGQ. As I recall it was mostly instrumental, with already orchestrated versions of Dawg's Rag & maybe Thailand among others. I was following David whenever I saw a Bay Area gig, everything I heard about after OAITW. Later, when I was archivist for David I know there is a tape of another even earlier version of the band w/o Jerry and Taj with John Carlini and a woman on rhythm guitar, a bass player,and then featuring Richard & David. My tape collection got flooded out about 15 years ago, and I think I still have a tape of the earlier band.....I'll try & ask David about it. Richard left in 1975 to work with Loggins and Messina. The earliest gigs of the David Grisman Quintet, were pre Bill Amatneek and had Joe Carroll on bass. The first official gig was in Bolinas, CA in 1976, which I bootleged an audience tape of with a Nakamici cassette player. Joe was at that gig & did a tour of Japan with the band. If I'm not mistaken Bill Keith & Richard Greene were on that tour, and there were 2 sets, a bluegrass set with Richard & Bill..then a DGQ set. I was taping live shows by then, with David's permission using a Revox 1/2 track, with separate mics on each stand. This is around when Bill Amatneek came on board as bass player, which was pretty early. I continued to tape the local shows for several years in the early days of Dawg Music, and mix many of the gigs from the board. Todd Phillips built and repaired mandolins in the back of my art studio, and with Darol also living in Oakland, my studio became a place where the band would hang. I would drive Todd & Darol to gigs in my Citroen convertible, with the Revox in the trunk. In about a year there was a change in the lineup, Amatneek was out & Todd Phillips took over the bass spot with young Mike Marshall joining as 2nd mandolin. Mike's on Hot Dawg, playing some parts for David, then suffering from tendinitis. This was the transition to one of my favorite versions of the DGQ.

Monte37
Feb-26-2007, 6:53pm
Hey guys, note also that Bill Amatnick (?spelling) is the man on bass, and was for a long while. A good ole friend from Mill Valley.
If its got three mando's, it is Ricochette. I was at this gig as well as you two. Matter of fact, all of the gigs you state.
I too am an old ####...I was even censored in that string.
HI Art!

Monte37
Feb-26-2007, 6:55pm
oops, I see it, Bill, was there somewhere in all those words. A vertual tome of messaging.

dtb
Feb-27-2007, 8:45am
splurge this past week-end picking up Grisman's....DGBE and travaersata....like both very much. I got to see the first quintet, and the latest a few times. highlights of my life for sure.

humblemex
Feb-27-2007, 9:15am
As Arthur says, there were several variations of the Great American String Band. Somewhere around here I've got a cassette with seven tunes on it from a gig with Richard Greene, John Carlini, and a woman named Ellen Kearney on rhythm guitar. I remember Arthur and I spent an afternoon listening to tapes of many DGQ gigs and I dubbed a few down to cassette with Dawg's permission.

Dawg says the original DGQ rehearsed for almost a year before doing their first gig. The first gig was at the Bolinas Community Center in Jan of 1976, and it's possible to hear two cuts, Cedal Hill and Theme from Capone, from that first gig on the DGQ 20 anthology. T. Rice plays mandocello on the second one.

In May, the band took a short tour to Japan, where they received with great enthusiasm. Here is one of my prized possessions--a poster from that tour. Gotta believe there can't be more than a few of them.

SternART
Feb-27-2007, 12:04pm
Thanks Jon, a net search for Ellen Kearney, puts her on a Maria Mauldaur album & on a Carly Simon album.......sounds reasonable.
That poster is the Japanese tour with I mentioned with Joe Carroll, Bill Amatneek started in after that with the DGQ. I think I
still have one of those posters too.....wonder what we could get for them on EBAY?! Nice look for Tony, eh?! Todd too......
The Blue Bell mandolin that was my first F5 came back with them from that tour. After Todd hot rodded it, wasn't too bad, for
the era anyway......not the best era for mandos, guys comin' up now have so many better choices.

There is a great article in the current Fretboard Journal on Tony Rice, or more to the point, his legendary D-28. Great photos
and a nice article by Art Dudley. Tony is the cover & featured article.

bgmando
Feb-27-2007, 1:30pm
Ah, the 70s. Pungent smoke in the air and hope everywhere.

And a DGQ LP vinyl disc to further blow a small-town Midwestern boy's mind.

Monte37
Feb-27-2007, 1:55pm
Hey Art,
I still have the program "book" from that tour. I remember the phonetic spelling of the song titles.

SternART
Feb-27-2007, 2:12pm
Here is an innerestin' story.......about that first DGQ record.....a college kid was at a party, heard the record playing, went over & checked it out, to see what the heck was playing. Next day went out & bought himself a mandolin. The story is about Joe Craven. How 'bout that.....eventually ends up a member of the DGQ for like 15+ years. That album inspired a whole generation to take up the instrument, much like Chris Thile's playing today has planted a new crop, or Big Mon's playing had done the same for an earlier generation. I'm still trying to play that first album, getting it up to speed is a problem I've encountered. Those guys were pretty darn good back in the day & now they have had 30 years to practice & get better. It has certainly been fun following the careers of the DGQ alumni. I see the Mandolin Symposium, or the Mandolin Cafe, or Comando, as an extension of the spirit that started with the Mandolin World News. "Mandolin Player Unite"

Scotti Adams
Feb-27-2007, 2:15pm
..pics..I wanna see pics... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

mandopete
Feb-27-2007, 2:24pm
Hey Jon - we missed you at Wintergrass this year!

Sorry I don't have any photos to contribute, but I have done several interviews with The Dawg as part of Wintergrass and I also got to thinking about how Dawg music has always been a big part of that festival. This year it was well represented by two DGQ alumni in Mike Marshall and Joe Craven.

mythicfish
Feb-27-2007, 5:37pm
Let me know when we get to the part when D(aw)G claims paternity of Anna Nicole Smiths baby.

Curt

SternART
Feb-27-2007, 7:03pm
Wasn't it ol' Bill that said something like....."That don't have no part of nothing!"

Paul Kotapish
Feb-27-2007, 7:15pm
My first exposure to David Grisman was through the rock world and his work with Peter Rowan in Earth Opera, their psychedelic roots/folk/rock ensemble from the late '60s. I still have both of those very strange recordings, but I can't say that I play them much. I also took note of his guest appearances on Workingman's Dead and American Beauty. Shortly after that I picked up on his bluegrass work with Red Allen and the Kentuckians from a few years earlier. Those County label sides they recorded are still worth listening to.

I didn't get to see him live until late 1974 or so when a version of the Great American Music Band opened for Maria Muldaur in Portland, Oregon. They played a stunning opening set and then some of them joined Maria's band on selected numbers. Grisman had played on Maria's eponymous debut which was enjoying a fair amount of success at the time. That was one of the greatest concerts ever.

Never got to hear to original DG quintet with Todd Phillips on mandolin, but I heard many concerts by later iterations, including that amazing tour they did with Stephane Grappelli shortly after Mike Marshall joined the band. That was another memorable night.

SternART
Feb-28-2007, 11:04am
I never caught Earth Opera live, but did see SeaTrain with Rowan & Richard Greene.
OAITW was my first exposure to Grisman.......couldn't figure out who was the guy
stealing the show from Jerry, this was at the old Keystone Berkeley. I talked to David at
the break & became interested in the mandolin from that point. I didn't even know
about Monroe, or Django & Stephane at this point, Never heard of Homer & Jethro. but started
researching the orgins of the tunes. I'd seen Clarence White with the Byrds, but didn't know
about Roland, or even the Muleskinner Band till years later. Being a Deadhead & following Garcia was
like Roots Music 101 and set me off on the right path.

AlanN
Feb-28-2007, 11:12am
including that amazing tour they did with Stephane Grappelli shortly after Mike Marshall joined the band. That was another memorable night.
Yes, I caught that band at Carnegie Hall, 1980 or 81. It was special.

fwoompf
Feb-28-2007, 11:17am
This topic is awesome. As someone who wasn't alive to see my favorite DGQ lineup (Grisman/Anger/Marshall/O'Conner/Wasserman) it's been a real treat. That story about Joe Craven is great!

humblemex
Feb-28-2007, 12:25pm
After the show, I made a point of going backstage to meet David and Tony. I was a writer and the staff photographer for Guitar Player by then, so they were happy to talk to me since I was also obviously a fan. We hit if off right away, and Dawg invited me out to his house to hear some of the final mixes for Kaleidoscope F-5.

In February 1977, Bill Monroe played the Great American Music Hall and David invited me along to meet him. When we entered Bill's dressing room an hour before the show, he was talking to a fan who had brought at least 20 albums for him to sign. Bill cheerfully signed them all. Tony and mandolinist Butch Waller of High Country were also there. Naturally, Big Mon commanded the room, and the disciples were genuinely humble and respectful as he picked up his mandolin and demonstrated why he was the Godfather.

David and Tony each had their instruments but only Tony joined in. As Dawg told me later, another mandolinist simply did not compete with The Man unless specifically invited. Besides, they had a history. At one point, Dawg was widely considered the heir apparent before he stepped away from bluegrass and started writing and playing music that definitely did not conform to Monroe's specifications. After a few tunes, Bill asked David if he still remembered how to play bluegrass, and they ripped into a smoldering "Rawhide" backed by Tony. When they finished, he asked Tony for his guitar, reminding T (as if he didn't know) that he had played guitar on "Muleskinner Blues," his first recording as a bandleader after leaving brother Charlie.

All in all, it was an otherworldly experience. Then we went upstairs and watched Bill, Kenny Baker, Butch Robins, and Wayne Lewis tear it up for an enthusiastic full house.

wah
Feb-28-2007, 12:26pm
Amen to that Garnet! Fantastic topic. We've got a bootleg cd of the Great American String Band (it's my girlfriends - she's a Jerry worshipper and grabs anything he's on) so it's good to read something about that band. Speaking of my girlfriend, she gave me DGQ 20 for Valentine's day. I was blown away - especially by the first cd that has so much stuff I never heard before. And SternART thank you for that statement, "being a Deadhead and following Garcia was like Roots Music 101." Since I had grown up listening to old Country and some Bluegrass I didn't always appreciate it at the time but Jerry and the rest of the guys opened our eyes to a lot of great music.

Joe Craven - for years I went to everywhere he played in Davis and just thought of him as a rythm guy delving into all this Latin and World stuff. I don't think I saw him with mandolin or fiddle until I saw him with Grisman.

Wayne

humblemex
Feb-28-2007, 12:26pm
Bill and T.

bgmando
Feb-28-2007, 1:05pm
Jon -- thanks so much for posting that photo of Bill Monroe playing Tony's guitar.

If I'm remembering right -- I've got it in a Pickin' magazine that's in a stack of stuff I've saved out in a box in the garage.

I loved acoustic music from childhood but was not exposed to anything but snatches on television here and there, until I bought Nitty Gritty's Uncle Teddy album.
From there -- other things followed, and I bought the Sea Train albums just because it listed a fiddler on it.
I heard DGQ before I heard the old individual Monroe LPs.

But at some point, I began to explore Monroe.
The photo of Monroe playing Tony's guitar, with T looking on, really struck home with me at that time.
Believe it or not, it's a picture that comes into my mind to this day, fairly often.
Your photograph made a deep, and recurring impression on me. One of the geat bluegrass pics ever.
Great to see it again.

MORE!

Bill Graham -- (the journalist, not the fillmore one that's done gone on)

jasona
Feb-28-2007, 1:57pm
Many thanks for this oustanding thread.

In case you didn't know, this MP3 by the Creaking Trees (http://www.brentrup.com/mandolincafe/creakingtree.mp3), the Dynamic Duo, is written for DGQ members Darrol Anger and Mike Marshall. It makes for a nice soundtrack for reading these posts.

SternART
Feb-28-2007, 2:00pm
Hey Wayne.....I first saw Joe Craven jamming mandolin at the Grass Valley festival several years before he met David.
He was in a Django/Swing type jam & just tearing it up......I even went & woke up my friends to hear him, I knew he
had it & wasn't surprised at all when he made it into the DGQ. Joe is incredibly musical, it just oozes out of him.
And so versatile...... need twin mando....need a fiddle solo.....rhythm ace.....comic relief, Joe was a cool addition & he was
jammin' at that festival with Rick Montgomery who also joined the band with Joe in a package deal.

Great Big Mon shots Jon.....must have been the next tour Monroe did thru SF, or possibly the prior or next night.......again at the Music Hall,
when Mike was already in the band......I got to go backstage with them & David told Bill this young kid was pretty good on the manalin......Bill
asked Mike to play, they broke out their mandolins & I was treated to some triple mandolin. BTW Mike ripped it and Bill really lit up with a BIG smile....
Bill also totally ripped it on his solo, just to show who was boss. I got in trouble with Bill, just a year later.....Frank Wakefield opened for Monroe
& had Darol Anger & Todd Phillips in the band, this was also being broadcast live over the radio in Oct of '78. Since I taped the DGQ all the time
at the Music Hall & everyone on their staff had seen me around, I just took the Revox and set up with the radio crew, in the room downstairs next
to the dressing room. In the break between his sets Bill looked in there and saw the reel to reel machine & freaked, asked who I was.
I told him I was there with Frank's band, loved the BG music and since anyone could tape it at home, I saw no harm in taping it from the GAMH.
He made me erase the tape right there in front of him.....I guess he worried about the quality of the tape, but anyone could have taped it at home.
Boy...busted by Bill Monroe , now thats the good ol' days!

SternART
Feb-28-2007, 3:53pm
I used to drive Mike & Darol to the gigs.....top down on the DS Cabriolet & they would practice on
the way to the gig....driving IN THE CAR!!!....now a '64 Citroen convertible is a rare sighting anyway, but
with a longhaired guy fiddling in the back seat, and an even longer haired guy riding shotgun & playing
mando (those were Todd's glory days with long hair), and an even longer haired ponytailed guy driving,
we must have been a sight to behold. They played a lot of hole in the wall clubs in those days between the
good gigs like the GAMH. I remember one Keystone Berkeley gig, early on.....maybe 6 or 7 was all there
were in the audience. Dawggy came out & asked them if they should play, the band was about as big as the
audience that night, but they were privvy to TWO smokin' sets of Dawg music.....this was before the first
record hit & they moved a rung up the ladder of show biz success. I KNEW how great David's music & band
were & felt privileged to be so close to all that creative energy.....not only are they talented, but they are
very bright guys too. David was feeding them jazz records, stuff like Bill Evans Trio, or 50's Miles Davis, we loved Oliver
Nelson's arrangements....Blues and the Abstract truth etc. The DGQ went thru a growth spurt, John Carlini was out for
arranging the King of the Gypsies movie score, and Tony Rice became a jazz chord monster, from jammin' with
John.....everyone was improving all the time & David kept honing the arrangements & allowing room for creative
soloing....everyone was really dedicated & working hard to improve as musicians. Great energy to be around.
I'm really proud on them boys, watching their careers blossom for 30 years has been great fun.

Scotti Adams
Feb-28-2007, 5:21pm
..this is great stuff...keep it rolling.

jmcgann
Feb-28-2007, 5:29pm
A few days after I turned 18, the DGQ played their first tour, and I was new at Berklee. Went to the show and...

I Became A Man!!! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Seriously- that, to me, threw down the gauntlet, big time. Got me a metronome and realized how far I had to go!!!

Patrick Melly
Feb-28-2007, 8:32pm
Arthur wrote: "They played a lot of hole in the wall clubs in those days between the good gigs "

My first DGQ sighting (maybe their 2nd or 3rd gig) was at a slightly surreal venue - they played at an elderly lady's storefront "opera house" out in the fogbound avenues of San Francisco - it was filled with the lady's ferns and cats and she was scooting around to rescue both from the crowd. It was sold out when we got there - when the ticket guy walked away we followed him in. I had come to hear Tony Rice - I was learning to flatpick guitar then - but we were unprepared for what we heard inside. The format was as described above - bluegrass(y) before the break, DGQ after.
The first set was dazzling enough: Richard Greene and Darol doing twin fiddles on one mike (quite a visual, given their respective heights); Bill
Keith wowing my banjo-picking girlfriend (I'm still married to her, sold the banjo); T. Rice as still as a statue while blazing away on these impossibly
fast & cool solos; Grisman bopping around as if possessed.
Then the DGQ played, and changed everything I thought I knew about acoustic music. I like to think the whole crowd knew something very
different was unfolding in front of us. The crowd was certainly hanging on every note.
After that show I borrowed my mom's Vega cylinderback and started trying to find the territory the DGQ introduced us to that night. Not there yet.

SternART
Mar-01-2007, 12:02am
Patrick......was that the gig the PA broke in the middle & we somehow patched it back together to work again?

Monte37
Mar-01-2007, 9:25am
My notes:
I remember all the small "church/hall" gigs that were totally accoustic where Rudy would get up and do some tunes.
I remember Rudy correcting my music at his J street candy store, and all the times he visited our group when we played at the GMH.
I remember starting the count of Ricochette to Hal Blaine.
...all the people I met as result of David any time I visited or at gigs...everyone really.
Daryl living downstairs at David's and always playing...always.
I remember that Joe Craven first played his fiddle case with his hands.
I always remember Art and his omnipresent tape machine..no MP3 then.
I remember how we all felt we were witness to something special.
I remember first seeing David play after us at the Stanford KZOO radio station with Skunk Cabbage. David and Clarence.
I remember asking David for lessons at Gryphon Music, and him saying yes...I end with my start.

humblemex
Mar-01-2007, 9:52am
Great stuff indeed, Arthur. I knew you'd have the goods. Lots of good stuff from others, too. Can you remember where and when we met? Was it at the Family Light Music School gig in Sausalito five days after the Monroe show? That was actually the first time I saw a full DGQ set, and I knew then I was going to be hanging around as close as they would let me. I loved the whole sound but the combination of Dawg and T was unprecedented and irresistible. The Gasoline Brothers, indeed."

If we didn't meet there, it must have been backstage at the Music Hall six weeks later in March, 1977. Let us be clear: Arthur Stern is arguably Dawghead #1. We were instant musical soul mates, bound by a shared love of the DGQ, the Grateful Dead, fruits of the earth, and the mandolin. The Dead connection is no fluke; Dawgheads # 2 and #3 are likely Jay Ceballos and Mary Barry, two kind souls and musicians who have been Deadheads pretty much as long as there have been Deadheads.

When I first started taking photography seriously in the late '60s, I began a log that tracked every roll. Each entry has a roll number, the date it was exposed, the subject(s), and the venue. Because of that, I can be pretty darn precise in establishing dates when things happened. I can't tell you how happy I am that I made that decision; the log and my contact sheets are my journals.

The Monroe gig I talked about was the year before Frank opened for him. That was in Oct, 1978, and Frank's band consisted of Darol Anger, Todd Phillips, Kathy Kallick, and an unidentified banjo player. I'll bet someone here knows. I definitely remember you getting busted by the man himself. Hope you knew somebody that was taping at home.

FWIW, I believe Joe Craven ranks with Tony Rice, Darol Anger, Mark O'Connor, and Mike Marshall in the Hall of Fame of most-gifted, influential DGQ alumni.

Dan Cole
Mar-01-2007, 10:50am
This entire thread is great. I think it really reinforces something my dad told me a long time ago. He said "if you want to bowl 300 games, you have to bowl with guys that bowl 300 games." Same goes for the mandolin, or anything else one wants to aspire to. Being lucky enough to be in such an influencial circle in anything you do really is a key to success.

Art, et al, I envy you!

tjg
Mar-01-2007, 10:54am
A book should be written! Great info!

Patrick Melly
Mar-01-2007, 11:15am
Arthur wrote:".....was that the gig the PA broke in the middle..."

I don't remember a total breakdown - I do recall many audience calls for more volume for individual instruments, to the point
that David said something like "You go back there and tell them - I can't even deal with telling them."
Arthur, do you think that show got taped? It was very early.

AlanN
Mar-01-2007, 11:15am
Enjoyable reading, for sure. And sure beats reading about Anna Nicole Smith http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

And Tim Ware fits in here somewhere, as he was in a parallel universe, mando wise. I remember reading that he saw the DGQ in a church in the day, and was somewhat crest-fallen, as he was doing something similar, but different, with mandolins.

It was all good, still is, actually.

Scotti Adams
Mar-01-2007, 11:19am
..hey..Ive got a Tim Ware Lp...nice stuff.

SternART
Mar-01-2007, 11:32am
Jon, I can't recall if we were introduced in Sausalito, or if I just saw you hangin'.....I remember you were always so discreet, you'd zip down close to the stage a coupla times a show, stay low, shoot & disappear. And once you were "in the club" backstage, we were almost invisable. As long as we didn't interrupt & let them take care of bidness, we were welcome to be in there. The band would circle up & reherse changes in the harmony lines, arrangements, order of solos, etc right down to the wire.....how did they remember all that stuff???.....David drove the bus, but it was like spontaneous group art, created right before our eyes. That last photo, the "Gasoline Brothers" was my favorite time backstage. Tony used to tune up and play the same exact run every time.....and that intuitive thing he & David share is a special musical brotherhood, there was just an inner joy they had hearing & playing off of each other. And the TONE of those two players with great instruments, heard from up close is etched into my soul......so many times, the band would stand in a half circle around me for one more rehersal tune, before hitting the stage.....now that is surround-sound! I made a point of going downstairs at the Music Hall, to greet them as they made their was back to the dressing room, to congratulate them on a good set.......was talkin to Tony once & telling him I thought this particular section of his solo in 16-16 was incredible......He said heeeey....I was thinking that too, I wonder what I was playing?!......he was just "in the zone". Darol & Mike lived virtually next door to each other in houses in the Oakland flatlands & were "always" playing together. They developed a special bond & musical partnership that lives till today. Another great combination. A vivid memory I have was listening to Todd teach his old mando parts to Mike.....all day..... while I was working on a stained glass project in my art studio. When Todd switched to bass, Mike became the 2nd mandolin voice in the band. Marshall was like a human tape recorder, heard it, played it back once or twice & he had it. And the kid could just swing the rhythm, his heros were Sam & David & his rhythm was like a combination.....when Mike showed up on David's porch, from Florida, he already had learned most of the licks on the first album.......Jon....you mention Jay & Mary, they became regulars backstage too, and now years later play in the Djunkyard Gypsies, a swing band up in the Grass Valley area. I remember them coming up to the soundboard & asking if they could meet David, so I took them backstage.....wasn't like there was any security or anything....anyone could have met them if they wanted to....and do you remember Darol's grandmother?.....she brought baked good to all the Music Hall gigs.....after the first record came out those Fri/Sat night gigs, every month or two at the Music Hall were a special part of the genesis of the DGQ.....I'll tell you though, I wasn't a player till '79 when I figured I was hangin' around all this incredible music, maybe I should give it a try too, Todd loaned me a Gibson A model, and showed me how to hold a pick & David already had Ten Tunes in Nine Keys out & that had a coupla Dawg tunes in there & I was off.....Marshall really knows how to teach too, many of my early lessons were with Mike and ideas he shared with me were usually over my head, but later as I developed enough to understand what he was talking about, I saw the basic building blocks of music were being made simple....he always could see exactly where I was, teach me something I could work into, but also leave me with some hot lick that I could do now.....so I saw immediate progress & in my world of puppy Dawg music.....I was jammin'.....once he made an observation to me about Sam & David that really hit home for me. Mike said that Sam's playing went in spirals and David's was more symmetric......perfect way to communicate music to a visual artist.......playing the mandolin is one of the hardest things I've ever tried to do, knowing world class players I saw what was possible, but it also gave me a much better understanding of how talented they really are. In that respect these guys are really musician's musicians.....you almost have to play yourself to understand the level of difficuly and the creativity & proficiency in their playing. So many of the audience members were also musicians....Tim Ware was mentioned, Bob Alekno, Dix Bruce, Dave Balakrishnan, Becky Smith, Richard Sommers, Jim Kirkland, Tom Rozum among others, many got involved in the Mandolin World News. A "New Acoustic" scene evolved in the Bay Area, mandolins were cool, and there were a lot bands, some shortlived for a few gigs others with longer duration. Many of these had DGQ members, moonlighting or experimenting with their own tunes and ideas. It was a cool era to be in the Bay Area.

mandopete
Mar-01-2007, 11:34am
A book, I agree! #DAWG music is so important and it sounds like you folks may have enough material and pictures possibly for a book.

Speaking of great stories, I love the one that David tells about meeting Todd Phillips. #He said that Todd approached him with a deal to trade mandolin bridges that Todd made for mandolin lessons.

Grisman summed it up with, "pretty soon I didn't need any more mandolin bridges and Todd didn't need any more lessons."

Great stuff.

bgmando
Mar-01-2007, 1:40pm
SternArt -- wonderful stuff, thanks.

In the Midwest -- So many of us had loved the Lovin Spoonful and Byrds and Buffalo Springfield. Bands that all mixed folkie/acoustic stuff with rock. Then there was The Band and Dirt Band.

So many folks were in a "folk-rock-mixed" mode as they learned to play, formed bands and jammed.

Hearing the DGQ first album froze people in their tracks.

Suddenly there was a swing from folk-rock leanings to jazz among the cool and proficient players. And as an antidote to Dawg overdose -- a push to sharpen Monroe and rootsy tone tunes in the repertoire.

I think delights found inside the door Dawg opened made players suddenly look for other doors they may have missed, too.

humblemex
Mar-01-2007, 2:33pm
A book, I agree! #DAWG music is so impotant and it sounds like you folks may have enough material and pictures possibly for a book.

First things first. Funny, but I knew I was documenting something important from the first time I saw these guys. Dawg knew, too, and we talked about "the book" that would happen someday. In fact, after David gave me my first good mandolin in 1979, an f-style Blue Bell, I promised him I would provide the photos gratis. Here we are almost 30 years later and that book seems a steep hill to climb. That's why I started this topic. I love the idea of a collective experience, and the web gives us options we never dreamed of long ago. Believe me, it's already occurred to me that we can also post mp3s.

My general plan is to introduce the photos and commentary more or less chronologically. One great benefit to this form is that people can post their comments and images in any order as their memories are tweaked. The whole chronology can be sorted out later. I've got a lot of images and I'm in no hurry to get them all posted. To a certain extent, it behooves us to stretch this out and get as many knowledgeable voices involved as we can.

Tim Ware was certainly a pioneer. His "Tim Ware Group," released in 1980 on Kaleidoscope, was one earliest examples of bands who adopted Dawg's example. Unfortunately, I don't think that's ever made it to CD although I understand there is a "Greatest Hits" package available from Menus and Music (http://www.menusandmusic.com), a mail order web site run by Sharon O'Connor, the former cellist in Tim's band. I can't figure out how to find it on her site, however. Tim now builds beautiful websites for a living, including Arthur Stern's if I'm not mistaken.

mandopete
Mar-01-2007, 2:45pm
A little off track, but your comment about "knowing this was something important" makes me think about what Chris Thile is doing today.

So is this idea going to merely live as a thread here on the cafe or is there some plan to publish these sort of memoirs?

humblemex
Mar-01-2007, 2:59pm
So is this idea going to merely live as a thread here on the cafe or is there some plan to publish these sort of memoirs?
As I said, first things first. Let's see where it goes. Meanwhile, it's free and happening right now here on the Cafe.

mandopete
Mar-01-2007, 4:22pm
Merci Phil,

That's some incredible stuff and with the score to boot.

Tres Magnifque!

SternART
Mar-01-2007, 4:41pm
It was a long stretch between Marshall & then Thile showing up. I thought Chris' How to Grow Band with Bryan Sutton
was like the next generation's Strength In Numbers Band. A nice growth step for Chris, I enjoyed them at Wgrass.
Unfortunately they didn't play this Blind leading the Blind (first movement) I've heard about. While Chris & these
other young musicians are major talents, the difference with the DGQ was IMO the compositions that Grisman wrote. His
body of incredible original music & arrangements has passed the test of time. That first album sounds as fresh today
THIRTY years later, as it did in the late 70's. I look forward to seeing where Thile can take the mandolin.

AlanN
Mar-01-2007, 5:29pm
#That first album sounds as fresh today
THIRTY years later, as it did in the late 70's.
With you there, buddy.

As is often the case, at least for me, the first is the best. I group the 2 Grisman albums, Kaleidoscope F-5 and Hot Dawg together as coming from the same space, largely because of Tony Rice.

Spectrum was a band in the late 70's with Gaudreau, Fleck, Lawson. They put out 3 records, the first, to me, is the best.

Doyle Lawson's first Quicksilver LP is da bomb, in spite of the elec. bass. Will The Circle Be Unbroken 1 beats 2.
Country Gazzette first record is great.

You get my idea.

Scotti Adams
Mar-01-2007, 6:31pm
..yea..I always thought the first Manzanita was the best too http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif #Seriously...does anyone know what # Pag Doyle recorded that first Lp with? That thing was huge sounding.

humblemex
Mar-01-2007, 10:05pm
I can't pinpoint the month that Kaleidoscope F-5 was released but it was probably sometime in the spring of 1977. Right away it created an identity for the band and generated airplay. As we have since discovered, it also galvanized acoustic musicians everywhere. Mike Marshall is just one of many players who have told me that album literally changed their life.

I guess that shouldn't have been so surprising when you think about what hearing Dawg music for the first time did to Tony Rice. In a 1977 Guitar Player interview, he described how Bill Keith had recruited him to play on his album, Some Bluegrass, for Rounder. At the time, Tony was the bluegrass guitarist and the bluegrass vocalist playing in the hottest bluegrass band anywhere, J.D. Crowe and New South with Ricky Skaggs, Jerry Dougas, and Bobby Slone.

"When I got to the gig, Grisman was there," he recalls. "This cat really fascinated me because before we even got to the studio to start the album, he played a tape of him and Richard Greene with The Great American Music Band. From the minute he put the tape on, it sounded like something I had always heard in my head, acoustic instrumental music arranged like we're playing it now--without vocals. All of a sudden this guy shows up and he has this tape of him doing it. I wanted to part of it right then, but I was playing six nights a week with J.D.

"David and I kept in close contact, and he kept asking me when I was going to come to California. I was dying to but I had a commitment to J.D. and was making a living. In hindsight, I should have gone with David right then. I finally just had to play this music so I moved to California in October 1975 and slept on Grisman's couch for months while we rehearsed for hours every day."

With the album, 1977 was the breakout year for Dawg music. I must have seen the band perform 10 times that year. I know it had a big effect in U.S. but I'm curious how it long it took for its impact to be felt overseas. The mandolin family had long been a staple of British, Irish, and Scottish traditional music with outstanding players such as Dave Swarbrick, Andy Irvine, and Mick Moloney. Anybody who was there who can shed light on that?


Tony Rice, Bill Amatneek, John Carlini backstage at the Great American Music Hall in San Francisco.

SternART
Mar-01-2007, 11:20pm
Possibly that photo taken with John Carlini was the era where they were working on the King of the Gypsies soundtrack. The move was released in '78...and as I recall the first record was heard by Federico De Laurentiis, son of Dino De Laurentiis the famed movie producer, and Grisman got the gig for the soundtrack. Carlini at the time was conducting and composing for the Ice Capades. I remember him coming to the Bay Area when scheduling permitted, taking David's Gypsy tunes and orchestrating them for the symphonic parts of the soundtrack. This was the movie where David hired Stephanne Grappelli to both play and act in the movie. In fact Grisman, Carlini, Andy Statman, Matt Glaser, Buell Neidlinger and others became the band appearing in several scenes in the movie, most notably the Gypsy wedding, and a funeral scene. They had David shave his beard, for the only time I can remember, except for a big handlebar moustache. This was just one of the doors that opened from the first DGQ record. Too bad the movie wasn't a BIG hit, so the music would have been heard by more people. There were plans for a soundtrack album, that were scrapped when the movie flopped. I think it was even recorded but never released. A medley of tunes from the movie became a part of the set list in this era. But one thing leads to another and the Grappelli connection was made and Stephanne then recorded a few tunes on the DGQ's next album, Hot Dawg.

glauber
Mar-02-2007, 12:00am
Jon, there were a few other GASB gigs with the lineup of:
Great American String Band
* Jerry Garcia - banjo, vocals
* David Grisman - mandolin, vocals
* David Nichtern - guitar, vocals
* Richard Greene - fiddle
* Taj Mahal - bass
* Buell Neidlinger - bass (4-26-1974 to 6-13-1974)
I found a torrent (http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=503418) for GASB, June 13 1974, Berkeley, CA

It doesn't seem to be well seeded right now, though. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
[edit: it actually downloaded pretty quickly, in case anyone else wants to try]

I was curious about Taj on bass (though from the dates you mention, he wasn't in this one). How amazing how many of my favorite Americans are connected.

mandocrucian
Mar-02-2007, 1:22am
Jon,

Got any photos of Dan Hicks & His Hot Licks (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:6f9sa93gb23k~T1)? Great west coast acoustic string swing, but overlooked/underappreciated by the grassy contingent because none of them came out of that genre, and, it predated the dawg stuff by at least 5+ years and the records (in the stores) were always filed in the "rock" bins.

Tim Ware, always sounded, to me, more like SF rock, but on acsoutics. (think: It's A Beautiful Day, Youngbloods, Dino Valenti-lineup up of QMS).

Hard to downplay the (UK) folk-jazz fusion of guitarist Davey Graham which inspired John#Renbourn & Bert Jansch both solo and with The Pentangle.

There was also Van Morrison's Astral Weeks, and the drumless John Mayall lineup with Jon Mark and Johnny Almond which produced The Turning Point and Empty Rooms.

NH

Dagger Gordon
Mar-02-2007, 3:37am
Humblemex,
regarding the impact of Dawg music in Britain.

I first came across this sort of thing in Chapelhill, North Carolina in early 1981.
I went throught a spell of listening to a lot of it, buying a couple of Rice albums (I love Reischman's playing on Backwaters), Grisman's Quintet 80, and Markology by Mark O'Connor (his guitar album) and one or two others.

I've often pondered whether it had much influence over here, and I have to conclude that I don't really think it did. Niles is certainly right in highlighting Pentangle and Davey Graham etc, but that was surely well before Dawg.

One group I believe was influenced by this idea of 'New Acoustic Music' (isn't that what it's called?) is the Edinburgh based Easy Club. They put a sort of synchopated swing into fiddle tunes, and had a great writer in Jim Sutherland. The way they played songs was also very effective.

I always expected them to be more successful than they seemed to be, and their influence doesn't seem to have been long lasting.

However, Jim Sutherland himself has gone on to be quite an influential producer.

There has been quite a bit of adventurous trad related music come out of Scotland in the last 25 years or so, but it is difficult to say whether Dawg influenced it much. Shooglenifty have always been a very progressive but quite electric band, and their early albums were produced by Sutherland.

The Scottish jazz community have always shown an interest in the 'folk' scene.
Examples might include Hamish Moore and Dick Lee's wild bagpipe/sax combinations and The Cauld Blast Orchestra. More recently we've had The Unusual Suspects - a terrific big band made up of folkies and jazzers, and Salsa Celtica - a very successful salsa/Celtic/jazz band. A number of harp players like Savourna Stevenson have also done some things that could be considered 'new acoustic music', although I'm not sure she's necessarily directly influenced by Dawg. I wouldn't be surprised, however.

In Ireland, we've had Moving Hearts and Davy Spillane doing intersting things, plus a very original group called Deiseal, wth a line-up of whistle, bouzouki and double bass, who I suspect were influenced. They had an amazing version of the old harp tune 'Si beag, si mhor'.
I also think the Anglo/Irish band Flook could perhaps be included. They're really great.

Scandinavian influences have become quite strong in recent years. I'll let Niles handle that.

Cheers,

Dagger.

glauber
Mar-02-2007, 7:07am
In Ireland, we've had Moving Hearts and Davy Spillane doing intersting things, plus a very original group called Deiseal, wth a line-up of whistle, bouzouki and double bass, who I suspect were influenced. They had an amazing version of the old harp tune 'Si beag, si mhor'.
I also think the Anglo/Irish band Flook could perhaps be included. They're really great.
Flook is terrific. So is Lunasa. I would think the whole Bothy Band lineage qualifies, all the high-energy Irish trad power bands.

The things i know by Spillane are more in the New Age vein.

Dagger Gordon
Mar-02-2007, 7:27am
The Bothy Band's first album was 1975, I believe, predating any Dawg influence. I think the Irish high energy band was a different kind of thing from what I associate with Dawg/Rice etc.

Flook and Deiseal I would regard as altogether more jazzy based and more experimental in style than the likes of Altan, for example.

Spillane definitely made an effort to fuse Irish music with other styles, even having Albert Lee and Jerry Douglas on his first album.

glauber
Mar-02-2007, 8:20am
Right, i meant similar in having taken a traditional music form and transformed it in creative ways without abandoning the music's traditional roots. But i see i was straying from the purpose of the thread.

There must be groups that did similar things in many countries, without being directly influenced by Dawg. I'm thinking of a Brazilian group called "Quinteto Violado (http://www.quintetoviolado.com.br/)". We probably won't ever know most of these groups.

mandocrucian
Mar-02-2007, 10:33am
I've often pondered whether it had much influence over here, and I have to conclude that I don't really think it did. Niles is certainly right in highlighting Pentangle and Davey Graham etc, but that was surely well before Dawg.

Graham was mid 60's - the "inventor" of DADGAD (though I'm sure the tuning had been previously used somewhere, but he kicked off the whole "English guitar" thing. Which developed both the trad. folk (Carthy etc) and jazzier (Renbourn, Jansch, John Martyn, Nick Drake..) branches

The "dawg music" thing was largely a bluegrass-rooted phenomena. Grisman was definitely the introduction vector (for jazzier sounds) for many of the bluegrass persuasion. But there were plenty of other folks out there that were doing fusions, or had been (independently) influenced by Django, Slim & Slam, or Chico Hamilton Quintet of the late 50s, and others. There was the Paul Winter Consort, which spun off Oregon - this was fusion coming from the jazz end. #

So, I brought up Dan Hicks in this light - Dan was doing his thing 68-72 (at his height) with a great acoustic swing outfit (Sid Page!) but Hicks was reaching a vastly different audience than those who got into Grisman via Tony Rice/NGR/and the progressive BG of the 70s.

Trischka, Bottle Hill, Central Park Sheiks and the northeast BG contingent were doing some 'parallel' type stuff too.

Besides Graham, Pentangle, (in the UK) there was Diz Disley (who was so much a Djangophile, that supposedly he was visiting Django's widow and couldn't resist the temptation to grab Django's guitar and tried to runn-oft with it. RT told me this!), Nick Drake, Incredible String Band, Dandoshaft. #Later there was Whippersnapper (Swarbrick, Chris Leslie, and from Dandoshaft - Martin Jenkins and Kevin Dempsey) who would have really appealed to the "new acoustic" fans had they been aware of them.

Bothy Band had nothing to do with dawg at all, being a continuation of the Sweeney's Men > Planxty evolution.

I suppose one's musical worldview is contingent on what (and how much) you've been exposed to.

NH
* * * * * * * * *
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>Chico Hamilton (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:7q5tk6sx9krh~T1) - various recordings from 1955-65

Oregon - Into The Woods (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:z7rvad4kv8w4) (1978)

Van Morrison - Astral Weeks (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&token=&sql=10:2bkvu3t5an7k) (1968)

John Mayall - The Turning Point (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:nlb8b5n4tsqs) #(1969), Empty Rooms (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&token=&sql=10:5g67gjerj6ix) (1970)

Davey Graham - Folk, Blues & Beyond... (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:40d4vwdva9rk)

John Renbourn - Sir John Alot (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:gudfyl78xpvb) (1968)

Pentangle - Pentangle (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:jzrb282c056a) (1968), Sweet Child (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:4s820roar48i) (1968), Basket of Light (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:o261mp939f3o) (1969), Light Flight: The Anthology (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:406tk6hxrkrd)

Nick Drake - #Five Leaves Left (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:jq6ftr7lkl2x) (1969), Bryter Layter (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:2tkzu3igan6k) # (1970)

Sweetwater (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:2v861v7jzzba~T1) - Sweetwater (1968)

Dan Hicks & His Hot Licks - Where's The Money? (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:dev1z85a8yv4) (1971), Striking It Rich (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:5zdqoa8ayijp) (1972), Last Train To Hicksville (1973)
Dan Hicks - It Happened One Bite</span>

SternART
Mar-02-2007, 11:56am
You know Niles.......I was a BIG Dan Hicks fan, went to numerous gigs, and in my previous life (as a rock & roll photographer) had even
put together a few "concept" photos for a possible record cover. I have some cool in camera multiple exposures shot with a Nikon F2 back in the day.
I know I have some large prints somewhere, and I suspect there are boxes of slides, but I haven't looked for any of that stuff in 25 years.

There was a "last concert" before several inevitable comeback attempts.....at a SF club in the basement of a Church, about 1972, where Dan greeted everyone and thanked them as they came in the front door.....he was drunk as a skunk! While Sid Page and John Girton were super musicians, that was primarily a vocal group with a hot band. There is a DGQ/Hicks connection though....Rob Wasserman who became the DGQ's 4th bass player was a Hicks alumni. I recall Naiomi Ruth Eisenberg, and Maryanne Price visiting him backstage at a Music Hall gig.....but I could be wrong on that. You should get that Hicks DVD where alumni all show up for his 60th birthday gig at the Warfield in SF. I don't think he ever revived his career to that 68-72 peak era you mentioned, but I'm pretty sure he still plays now & then out here. I can see where a band like the Diddy-Bops comes right out of that Eisenberg/Price mold. The two Lickettes have done some gigs out this way too.

Paul Kotapish
Mar-02-2007, 12:29pm
FWIW, I know from conversations with Kevin Burke and Mícháel Ó Domhnaill that they were not really aware of the whole Dawg phenomenon at the time the Bothy Band was performing, and that group was pretty much defunct before the the DGQ was out and touring.

One of the interesting things that came out of those conversations was the very different attitude toward improvisation that the Irish musicians held. The common ground between the European folk revivalists and the Dawg school is that the bands were able to pull off incrdibly tight, complicated arrangements. With Grisman and Co. those arrangements were launching pads for statospheric improvisation by the soloists. In the case of the Bothy Band et al, improvisation was not really part of the formula, except at the most micro level of when and how to ornament a phrase or turn. And in instances where the arrangements featured tight duet or trio melodies, even the placement of ornaments was worked out in unison.

There were also big differences in the way that harmonies, counterpoint, and such were employed, but I think that improvisation is the big difference.

dzen
Mar-02-2007, 12:53pm
I saw the Grisman quintet (?) in Omaha about 7 years ago. After falling completely in love with the Tony Rice era stuff 20 years earlier, it had been one of the goals of my life to see them live, and I finally got the opportunity. Somehow they never made it to Nebraska. I hadn't heard anything they'd done for many years and was a little apprehensive as to how they'd weathered the years, musically speaking. I mean, a flute player? Percussion? A Brazilian guitarist? It was one of the best shows I've ever seen. The guy doing percussion sounds with his mouth was great fun to watch and hear (forgive me, don't remember his name).

I saw "Grateful Dawg" a couple years later and it was interesting that the vocal percussionist was on it, but you could never see his mouth when he was doing his stuff. Was that intentional? What was the reason? Dale

SternART
Mar-02-2007, 1:21pm
Joe Craven would often immitate the cymbals of a drum kit vocally....with his mouth. When he started with the DGQ percussion was usually just his fiddle case, but over the years he added to his kit. I saw a solo on a styrofoam cup once that was extremely musical. Joe can use anything including his own head to create music. He certainly added a whimsical or comedic element to the show, as well as tasty fiddle & mando solos. He was always in the groove big time on percussion. Add flashy dresser, too.

wsm
Mar-02-2007, 1:58pm
Joe can use anything including his own head to create music.
Couple of months ago, I saw Joe lower his mic down to about floor level. #Untie his shoe and play an incredible solo on his shoelaces. #Wayne, I think I saw you hanging around in the back somewhere..

humblemex
Mar-02-2007, 4:13pm
Okay, now we're cooking. I was always vaguely aware of what the Brits were doing acoustically via bands like Fairport Convention and The Incredible String Band who made a small dent in the American market. Now I've got a list of a dozen more sources I need to check out. I'm not surprised that the DGQ didn't immediately bowl people over in Europe because there was such an established tradition already in place. Interesting, though, that one of David's primary influences were French and Belgian, Stephane Grappelli and Django Reinhart.

I think the Japanese were right on top of it, though, because there was an active bluegrass community and they were building instruments.

Dan Hicks was definitely an anomaly in that whole San Francisco scene and they kicked butt. Hicks was a killer rhythm guitarist and singer who wrote great songs like "I Scare Myself," How Can I Miss You When You Won't Go Away," "Walkin' One and Only," and "Canned Music." He was actually a member of *the* seminal San Francisco band, The Charletons. I never photographed him during the day. It was 1984 during his "comeback before I got the chance." Ol' Dan was pretty drunk for a long time and got pretty mean to the audience during his shows. You couldn't watch his show with a thin skin. The good news is that he is sober and fully up and running, releasing new albums and performing. Check out his website at www.DanHicks.net.

Arthur, that picture of Carlini and T was from January 1977, well before the King of the Gypsys thing happened. That was actually before I saw the first full DGQ set at Family at another kind of hybrid band performance with Jerry Douglas and Carlini. John was an original member of the Great American String Band who had gone off to be the musical director of the Ice Capades. He worked very closely with David on the arrangements and notation. Somewhere around here, I've got an original transcription of E.M.D. in his hand. What I remember most from that evening was a gorgeous duet of Tony and John on "Norwegian Wood."

I've asked a couple of boys in the band to check this topic out and see if they have anything to add. Just heard from Mike Marshall, who says he all over it. Stay tuned.

Dagger Gordon
Mar-02-2007, 5:21pm
I think Flook, Deiseal and Davy Spillane have embraced improvisation in a way that earlier bands like the Bothies didn't, which is why I included them.

humblemex
Mar-02-2007, 5:26pm
Correction: The shot of T and Carlini actually dates to May 27, 1977, which does indeed put it in the early window of work on King of the Gypsies. That would definitely account for John's presence, since he lived on the east coast. For some reason, every time I was around David my mind would get fuzzy, I'd laugh a lot, and forget things. Must have been something in the air that still effects my memory. Their opening act for this show was the incredible Ricky Jay, and astounding magician and arguably the greatest slight-of-hand artist anywhere. His card-throwing tricks defied the imagination. He even wrote a book about it called "Cards As Weapons," unfortunately long out of print. I remember being in Los Angeles 15 or 20 years ago and I came across a theater that was advertising Ricky for a two-week run. I immediately tried to buy tickets but the guy just laughed at me; all shows had long since been sold out.

This shot of the band is from August 19, 1977. It was actually used as a promo shot for a while. They were smokin' and on top of their game. Yogive you an idea of what they were playing those days, here's a set list from May 28, 1977.

14 Miles to Barstow
Janice
Opus 57
Opus 38
Old Gray Coat
Groovin' High
Japan
Dawgology
16-16
Swing '51
Norwegian Wood
Swing '42
Spain
Ricochet
Fish Scale
Opus 12
Minor Swing

(sigh) Those were the days. And thanks Phillippe for the newspaper clipping from the Japanese tour.

bush-man
Mar-02-2007, 7:01pm
This is such fantastic stuff. I am enjoying reading every post. As for me, I had highly eclectic musical tastes, and listened to most of the bands that have been mentioned here, back in the day. I was also a huge Hicks fan and saw him in the early 70's at a bowling alley in Pa somewhere. hehehe I also saw him years later when he was doing gigs in NY at the Lone Star Cafe.

The Central Park Shieks! Man did I love those guys. I wish I still had their album. Great swinging music. As for Dawg, I was right on the first DGQ release. I was coming from Trishka, and Barrenburg and Keith and all those bg/ng cats. I was also heavily into all the ECM jazz releases, like Pat Methany, Jan Gabberreck, Kenny Wheeler, Ralph Towner, et all.

The only time I got to see Dawg was at a bg festival in Virgina in the early 70's [culpepper?], where he performed with Old and In the Way. Great times, great music, great memories. Keep it coming!

a gratefull russell

humblemex
Mar-03-2007, 9:09am
"You mean the italian newspaper clipping from the European tour?"
Yes, of course. Funny thing is I didn't even know about a European tour that year. Is there a date anywhere on that clipping?

humblemex
Mar-03-2007, 8:37pm
When I started hanging around David, it wasn't long before I got the urge to buy a mandolin. I'd plunked out a few chords on the guitar by then but I really loved the mandolin tremolo and the logic of the fingerboard. So I worked out a deal for a cool Ibanez two-point with Charlie Cowles, who then owned Tree Frog Music in my San Francisco Richmond neighborhood. If I recall correctly, there was no cash involved; I swapped him photos and copies of Guitar Player magazine he could sell in the store. The Ibanez was actually quite good but, of course, I stupidly sold it in the early '90s in the music store I co-owned. I mean, who needs more than one mandolin? Many of you Bay Area people know that Charlie now owns Tall Toad Music in Petaluma.

When I told David, he immediately gave me a copy of his little self- published "Ten Tunes in Nine Keys" and turned me on to the Mandolin World News. What a revelation. David and Darol published the first issue in Spring 1976. Remember, these were the days before computers, so every thing was done by conventional offset printing methods: the copy was typeset and photos were screened. The music, and there was lots of it, was beautifully handwritten (mostly by Darol, I think) in both notation and tab. The copy was then pasted up, photographed with a copy camera, and printing plates were burned. Only then was the magazine printed. It wasn't easy and it wasn't cheap, but it *was* a labor of great love and a gift to mandolinists everywhere.

The first issue was 24 pages, measured 5 1/2 x 8 1/2, and cost a buck. It included a list of source material for mandolin music publications and recordings, transcriptions of Byron Berline's "Snowball" and Beethoven's "Sonatine C-Dur, a tiny blurb on the DGQ, some basic mechanical exercises by Dawg, and an article on bridge placement and string compensation by Todd Phillips. The second issue was dated Summer 1976 and opened with appreciative letters from Jethro Burns and other mandolinists throughout the country. Bob Bruen did a short interview with Rudy Cipolla and Rudy contributed a study for two mandolins. Darol contributed a transcription of Jethro's "Back Up and Push, Dawg did a piece on voicing chords, and Todd wrote about mandolin set-up. The staff consisted of Dawg, Todd, Darol, Janice Bain (*the* "Janice) and Bob Bruen. As time passed, others began contributing articles and transcriptions. Niles Hokkanen was onboard by the fifth issue with a transcription of Mick Moloney's "Reel for Mandolin," classical great Marilyn Mair did a piece on studying with Vinzenz Hladky, and Jethro debuted his column, "Jethro Speaks."

Eventually the staff and the magazine expanded with more authors contributing. A random selection I looked at included Don Stiernberg, John McGann, Tim Ware, Mike Marshall, Joe Carr, Tony Williamson, Scott Hambly, Hugo D'Alton, Bob Alekno, and Rich Del Grosso This was truly a magazine written by mandolin players for mandolin players. By the end of the third year, Dix Bruce took over as editor and the fun just kept on coming. Dix and the others held out until Vol 7, #3 in Autumn 1983 when it became clear there really wasn't any advertising to support the publication. By then it had expanded to 54 pages. After suspending publication for a year, Don Stiernberg and his brother John took over and produced four more issues before tossing in the towel at the end of 1984. MWN produced a total of 31 issues, and it's remarkable how fresh and relevant just about everything in every issue still is today, although the classifieds are a hoot. Issue. Once I started looking through my back issues, I spent almost six hours and marked at least 20 pieces I want to return to. Though Michael HolmesI briefly published "Mandolin Notebook" through six issues in 1977-78, it was 1987 before anything remotely equal to MWN existed when Niles started "Mandocrucian Digest."

Fortunately, photo copies of all 31 issues are still available from Dix at his web site, www.musixnow.com. You owe it to yourselves to experience this wonderful publication.

humblemex
Mar-03-2007, 8:38pm
Jethro Speaks

humblemex
Mar-03-2007, 8:39pm
Jethro Speak Part 2

humblemex
Mar-03-2007, 9:08pm
CORRECTION: MWN did not suspend publication for a year after Dix gave it up. The last issue from Dix was Vol 7, #3 in Autumn, 1983, with Mike Marshall on the cover. When the Stiernbergs took over they decided to make a clean break and skipped Vol 7, #4 and all of Vol 8. They started in March 1984 with Vol. 9, #1. The four issues they produced looked and read really good.

"It all worked out pretty well despite the bumps," says Dix. "I loved that little magazine and if we'd had computers in those days, I bet I'd still be doing it."

Peter Hackman
Mar-05-2007, 9:07am
Jon,

Got any photos of Dan Hicks & His Hot Licks (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:6f9sa93gb23k~T1)? Great west coast acoustic string swing, but overlooked/underappreciated by the grassy contingent because none of them came out of that genre, and, it predated the dawg stuff by at least 5+ years and the records (in the stores) were always filed in the "rock" bins.

Tim Ware, always sounded, to me, more like SF rock, but on acsoutics. (think: It's A Beautiful Day, Youngbloods, Dino Valenti-lineup up of QMS).

Hard to downplay the (UK) folk-jazz fusion of guitarist Davey Graham which inspired John#Renbourn & Bert Jansch both solo and with The Pentangle.

There was also Van Morrison's Astral Weeks, and the drumless John Mayall lineup with Jon Mark and Johnny Almond which produced The Turning Point and Empty Rooms.

NH
I've been trying to understand your point. Are you telling us there was music
before the DGQ? I'm shocked to hear that.

mandopete
Mar-05-2007, 10:07am
So You Want To Be A Mandolin Player? - words to live by!

AlanN
Mar-05-2007, 10:48am
I just met Grisman 20 minutes ago, for the first time. He is here for a student discourse on jazz/bg hybrids. He remembered my mandolin, and knew me from, you guessed it, this here website.

So he does read it, be careful what you say http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Cool MWN montage, Jon. I have memorized all those issues...

glauber
Mar-05-2007, 12:34pm
So he does read it, be careful what you say http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
David, you dog!

Ooops, i really blew it now... now i'll never be invited into the DGQ, even though i play mandolin and flute! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

mandocrucian
Mar-06-2007, 10:50am
I've been trying to understand your point. Are you telling us there was music
before the DGQ? I'm shocked to hear that.

Really amazing ain't it? And "acoustic" as well!


<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>"Menu" (1977 Nyon Folk Festival)
Artistes: Amanite, Aristide Padygros, Bill Keith Band, Bluegrass Long Distance, Claude et Alex, Connection, Corrugated Mercury, Country Joe McDonald, Country Ramblers, David Bromberg Band, Derroll Adams, François Béranger, Gentiane, Guedou, Hedhe Hog Pie, Jacques Aylestock, Julie Felix, Kolinda, La Kinkerne, Le Grand Rouge, Malicorne, Marcel Dadi, Pierre Bensusan, Pigsty Hill Light Orchestra, Tarot, Yvan et Daniel Haefliger</span>

Malicorne - one of the best folk-rock bands of all time.

Niles H

Don Stiernberg
Mar-06-2007, 12:55pm
Lots of great discussion and nostalgia here, thanks everyone..

I think one rather amazing fact about "Dawgology" is that after 3 decades it continues as a work in progress, a great body of work which has had an influence on how many of us think about music..

But getting back to Mandolin World News, my favorite memory
is still Jethro's recipe for "Baloney Gravy". I gotta go into the basement now and find that...

SternART
Mar-06-2007, 3:43pm
uuuuuuuummmmmm!!!

Jethro's Baloney Gravy!!!

humblemex
Mar-06-2007, 5:24pm
[quote]I've been trying to understand your point. Are you telling us there was music
before the DGQ? I'm shocked to hear that.
There were a couple. Like this guy for instance:

humblemex
Mar-06-2007, 5:26pm
And this guy:

humblemex
Mar-06-2007, 5:27pm
And this guy:

humblemex
Mar-06-2007, 5:29pm
And this guy, to name but a few. But I digress. The topic is, after all, Dawgology

humblemex
Mar-06-2007, 5:30pm
Oh yeah, sorry. Can't forget this guy:

humblemex
Mar-06-2007, 5:50pm
Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

Kaleidoscope F-5 set a standard for a new breed of acoustic music in several ways, not the least the quality of recording of acoustic instruments. Vol 2, #2 of MWN provided the details.

humblemex
Mar-06-2007, 5:52pm
Part 2-recording the DGQ

mandopete
Mar-06-2007, 6:11pm
All Neumanns - cool!

Got any pictures from that session? #I would love to see the mic placement for the guitar.

Spruce
Mar-06-2007, 6:12pm
Hi Jon....

Was that Monroe pic taken at the GAMH??

I've been trying to get a reading on the date of that show for quite some time now...

Here tis:

Setlist for Bill Monroe & the Bluegrass Boys 1977 ?? # #


Venue # #Great American Music Hall#
City # #San Francisco#
State # #CA#

Set/CD 1 (broadcast on KNEW) #Radio &gt; Reel-to-Reel &gt; Masterlink &gt; CD

1: #Bluegrass Breakdown #(fades in)
2: #Muleskinner Blues
3: #My Little Georgia Rose
4: #Kentucky Mandolin
5: #Precious Memories
6: #Jeruselem Ridge
7: #Uncle Pen
8: #Sunset Trail
9: #In the Pines
10: #Footprints in the Snow
11: #Rawhide
12: #Swing Low/I'll Fly Away/I Saw the Light
13: #White Horse Breakdown
14: #Interview #(great!)



Set/CD 2: #(soundboard source unknown)

1: Intro Followed by I'll Never Shed Another Tear
2: Dear Old Dixie
3: The Broken String Event
4: My Little Georgia Rose
5: The Old Old House
6: Introduction to Jerusalem Ridge
7: Jerusalem Ridge
8: Precious Memories (the Bluegrass Quartet)
9: Right Right On (first public performance)
10: Tennessee Blues
11: Monroe's Hornpipe
12: The Little Girl and the Dreadful Snake
13: The Girl in the Blue Velvet Band
14: Kentucky Waltz
15: Toy Heart
16: Walking in Jerusalem
17: End comments from Bill

Comment # #Bill Monroe and the Bluegrass Boys
Kenny Baker
Wayne Lewis
Randy Davis
Butch Robbins


Man, the GAMH had to be a photographer's dream venue, no?? #With those wonderful balconies right over the stage and all...

That had to be about my favorite period for seeing music. #Those DGQ shows indeed were all just incredible.

humblemex
Mar-06-2007, 10:16pm
Sorry Pete but I wasn't really around yet when they were recording the album.

Bruce, the photo of Bill was shot at the Great American Music Hall but the kicker is that played there twice in 1977, Feb. 7 and Oct 3. At least you've got a 1 in 2 chance to get it right.

The GAMH *was* a great place to shoot for a couple of reasons. It had the best acoustic music anywhere in San Francisco and I had a lifetime pass that allowed me just walk into any show. I knew the whole staff. My main man was Gilbert Johnson, who ran the lights. Even if the level was low for most of the show, he would crank it up when he saw me shooting.

Peter Hackman
Mar-07-2007, 7:57am
I just met Grisman 20 minutes ago, for the first time. He is here for a student discourse on jazz/bg hybrids. He remembered my mandolin, and knew me from, you guessed it, this here website.

So he does read it, be careful what you say http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Cool MWN montage, Jon. I have memorized all those issues...
Do you (anyone here) think of Grisman's music as a jazz/bg bas..., sorry,# hybrid?

Anyone know Grismans's thoughts on the topic? I mean his thoughts, not
what he might say to critics or journalists.

I really don't hear ANY bg at all, and as for the jazz #this music
seems to be one huge confirmation of Hackmans' Theorem -
that the guitar #is not a piano.


(I'm a bit wary of labels, multilabels and #anti-labels. When people ask me what I play I say it's fusion. You mean like folk-rock or funk-jazz?
No, a fusion of notes).

Peter Hackman
Mar-07-2007, 8:08am
Oh yeah, sorry. Can't forget this guy:
In this subthread about who preceded Grisman by how many years
with something else it surprises me that no one has mentioned
Jim Kweskin or Dave van Ronk's Ragtime Jug Band, or
the (possibly) first band that DG played in, The Even Dozen Jug Band.
Of course, the first two were mainly vocal groups, but I believe
these musicians, and these bands, may very well have affected
the way people think about, and hear, "acoustic" music.
Richard Greene's violin with Kweskin
(or with Gary Burton !!!)
may have been more
significant than his playing with Monroe or Muleskinner.

AlanN
Mar-07-2007, 8:17am
Do you (anyone here) think of Grisman's music as a jazz/bg bas..., sorry,# hybrid?
I don't think when I listen to music. I just listen. And I don't need to call it anything. If I like it, it gets repeated listening; if I don't, it don't.

Scotti Adams
Mar-07-2007, 8:36am
Do you (anyone here) think of Grisman's music as a jazz/bg bas..., sorry,# hybrid?
I don't think when I listen to music. I just listen. And I don't need to call it anything. If I like it, it gets repeated listening; if I don't, it don't.
..same here...

mandopete
Mar-07-2007, 8:49am
Do you (anyone here) think of Grisman's music as a jazz/bg bas..., sorry,# hybrid?
I don't think when I listen to music. I just listen. And I don't need to call it anything. If I like it, it gets repeated listening; if I don't, it don't.
..same here...
I agree.

The hallmark of DAWG music is that it really can't be lumped into any genre.

mandolooter
Mar-07-2007, 10:12am
aren't labels for beer bottles? When im pickin out some tunes for the day, I think more in flavors than genre's.

Spruce
Mar-07-2007, 10:33am
"I really don't hear ANY bg at all"

Well, the instrumentation alone denotes a BG influence, no??

That, and I hear fiddle-tune influence in a lot of those Dawg tunes...

"Whiskey Before Breakfast" in "Thailand", for instance....

We've mentioned it before on these pages, but that twin-mando lineup in the early DGQ years with Todd on second mando was the element in that music that really made it unique.
And it was only on display in the DGQ for a very short magical period of time...

Hell, when they had the reunion of the "original" DGQ at Wintergrass 5-6 years ago playing the tunes off Kalaidascope F5 (in order!), there wasn't a twin-mando part to be heard. #
Granted, Todd's mando chops aren't up to snuff (by his own admission), but those parts were the element that made that project unique, and it's really been lost over the years...

gr_store_feet
Mar-07-2007, 12:17pm
This is truly an incredible thread; just fascinating insight. I am completely stupefied that Taj Mahal played bass for that GASB. Definitely amazing; two different worlds colliding. Any have any pictures of that? Any recordings? There is no mention of that on any Taj biographies that I have checked out online. I do have a recoding of Taj on bass playing on an old album of Bonnie Raitt's. But I would love to hear any GASB with Taj.

tango_grass
Mar-07-2007, 12:20pm
"The hallmark of DAWG music is that it really can't be lumped into any genre."
Which is why I love Dawg, Its music. Just plain sweet music.

AlanN
Mar-07-2007, 12:29pm
"The hallmark of DAWG music is that it really can't be lumped into any genre."
Which is why I love Dawg, Its music. Just plain sweet music.
Man, this has come full circle to the very raison d'etre of Dawg Music. The little blurb by one Janice Bain on the back of K F-5 says it all...and I paraphrase from memory..."They started calling them dawg music. The wierd tunes that were no longer bluegrass, tunes with a difference..."

The whole thing of [naming] it was for it to live in a world where labels are necessary, per the music/commercial/ business viewpoint. I would hazard that David hardly wanted to name it at all....but I'm glad he did http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Dan Cole
Mar-07-2007, 12:41pm
I have heard how Jerry Garcia coined the nickname Dawg, but I have also heard it is Grisman's initials. Is there any truth to that?

Spruce
Mar-07-2007, 12:54pm
"I am completely stupefied that Taj Mahal played bass for that GASB. Definitely amazing; two different worlds colliding. Any have any pictures of that? Any recordings?"

Well, there are these (http://db.etree.org/bs_d.php?artist_key=992&year=1974)...

humblemex
Mar-07-2007, 1:10pm
"We've mentioned it before on these pages, but that twin-mando lineup in the early DGQ years with Todd on second mando was the element in that music that really made it unique.
And it was only on display in the DGQ for a very short magical period of time..."
You got that right, Bruce. I just noticed that I had not included Todd in my personal DGQ alumni Hall of Fame and that was just an inadvertant omission. That two-mandolin lineup created a unique sound that lasted until 1981 with Todd and then Mike Marshall. It has seldom been seen since except for when Joe Craven occasionally pitched in.

Todd was an essential glue for the original quintet, first on mandolin and then on bass. For the past 25 years, he has been *the* bassist on call for many of the most innovative traditional, bluegrass, and "new acoustic" music recordings. He is also a two-time Grammy winner, first with the New South in 1983 and again in 1997 as the producer of "True Life Blues," the tribute album to Bill Monroe. He has also produced two David Grier albums and is a key member of Phillips, Grier, and Flinner as well as Laurie Lewis' bluegrass band.

Peter Hackman
Mar-07-2007, 1:32pm
"We've mentioned it before on these pages, but that twin-mando lineup in the early DGQ years with Todd on second mando was the element in that music that really made it unique.
And it was only on display in the DGQ for a very short magical period of time..."
You got that right, Bruce. I just noticed that I had not included Todd in my personal DGQ alumni Hall of Fame and that was just an inadvertant omission. That two-mandolin lineup created a unique sound that lasted until 1981 with Todd and then Mike Marshall. It has seldom been seen since except for when Joe Craven occasionally pitched in.

Todd was an essential glue for the original quintet, first on mandolin and then on bass. For the past 25 years, he has been *the* bassist on call for many of the most innovative traditional, bluegrass, and "new acoustic" music recordings. He is also a two-time Grammy winner, first with the New South in 1983 and again in 1997 as the producer of "True Life Blues," the tribute album to Bill Monroe. He has also produced two David Grier albums and is a key member of Phillips, Grier, and Flinner as well as Laurie Lewis' bluegrass band.
One of my absolute favorites on bass.

Hope I'm not hijacking this thread, but a CD I often return to is
his "timeframe" with Paul McCandless on double reeds, soprano sax,
and bass clarinet, a marimba player, and drums. Not exactly
a string band, and yet somehow connected with the DGQ and
all it inspired (check the thank yous on the booklet).

SternART
Mar-07-2007, 2:20pm
Todd's CD "In The Pines" is absolutely top drawer too. Those guys play it pretty straight on this one, definitely not Psychograss, another band Todd is involved with. In The Pines has soul though, top pickers playing more traditionally than they sometimes do.....but VERY hip none the less. Incredible mando playing by Marshall & Reischman, with Stuart Duncan, Darol Anger, Tim O'brien & Laurie Lewis on fiddle on various cuts, Scott Nygaard on guitar and Tony Trischka on banjo. If you don't have this CD find it, you won't be disappointed. Tunes like In The Willow Garden, Sally Ann, Liza Jane, Midnight on the Stormy Deep, In The Pines......a very fine instrumental CD!

glauber
Mar-07-2007, 4:24pm
Jon, there were a few other GASB gigs with the lineup of:
Great American String Band
* Jerry Garcia - banjo, vocals
* David Grisman - mandolin, vocals
* David Nichtern - guitar, vocals
* Richard Greene - fiddle
* Taj Mahal - bass
* Buell Neidlinger - bass (4-26-1974 to 6-13-1974)
I found a torrent (http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=503418) for GASB, June 13 1974, Berkeley, CA

It doesn't seem to be well seeded right now, though. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
[edit: it actually downloaded pretty quickly, in case anyone else wants to try]

I was curious about Taj on bass (though from the dates you mention, he wasn't in this one). How amazing how many of my favorite Americans are connected.
I've been listening to this one... nice sound, despite some tape hiss. To my untrained ears, Jerry seems to play some pretty good banjo. At least a few tracks sound like Jerry may be playing lead guitar too.

SternART
Mar-07-2007, 5:28pm
That is the GREAT Buell Neidlinger on bass @ the Keystone Berkeley gig. Mr. Buellgrass himself. Neidlinger was on Richard Greene's Grass is Greener Band recordings and has some of his own Buellgrass out, some cool stuff on CD with Andy Statman & Richard, culled from older records. He has quite a resume, everything from Chamber music with guys like Richard Stoltzman, recordings with the London Symphony as 1st chair. AND recording with Cecil Taylor in the late 50's...lone young white guy in that scene, friends with Herby Nichols, even put out some of his charts a few years back. Buell is a big Monk-ophile recording many of his tunes over the years. And he was on every commercial, movie soundtrack, etc to come out of LA in the era he lived there. Edgar Meyer is like this generations main crossover go to guy....Buell was the previous generations go to bass player. Buell is cool! He was like a prodigy cello player in his youth.
There was a one time gig called the David Grisman Orchestra @ the GAMH. It had Richard, Buell, Andy Statman, hmmmmm can't recall who was on guitar, might have been Carlini & Grisman. Now that was a cool 2 mandolin band there. As I recall it was like a special gig in between versions of the DGQ.

Glauber....If you want Taj on bass on these GASB recordings the shows where they opened for the Grateful Dead at stadiums are some of the ones you want to find. Try the Ebbets Field & Pilgrimage Theater gigs, from above....... as well as one from..... I think it was Santa Barbara where they opened for the Dead.

mandopete
Mar-07-2007, 6:19pm
Hell, when they had the reunion of the "original" DGQ at Wintergrass 5-6 years ago playing the tunes off Kalaidascope F5 (in order!), there wasn't a twin-mando part to be heard. #
Now I seem to recall that they did one tune with 3 mandolins - David, Mike and Todd. #I can't recall which tune, maybe Ricochet?

David commented in my interview how much he liked having two mandolins in the band. #In that way the "chop" wouldn't drop out when the mandolin solo'ed. This is something I notice quite a bit in bluegrass. #Sometimes a banjo, fiddle or dobro will pick up the chop when the mandolin solos. #Other times on recordings I think they will just run the chop through the entire song and dub the mandolin break.

Oh yeah, the other thing I remember from the reunion gig at Wintergrass was when David was yelling out the reminder for the stop in the middle of Tony's break on E.M.D. - just like the record.

mandopete
Mar-07-2007, 6:28pm
So I went into the closet here and dug out my copy of Kaleidocsope F-5 (on vinyl), which I have always called "The David Grisman Quintet" album. #I recall that for years I thought this was bluegrass music, or at least what it had become by 1976.

The picture of the instruments on the cover is an absolute classic!

Spruce
Mar-07-2007, 6:33pm
"Buell is a big Monk-ophile recording many of his tunes over the years."

Buell told me a story about how he used to sit on Monk's stoop and listen to him practice...
Pretty cool...

"There was a one time gig called the David Grisman Orchestra @ the GAMH. #It had Richard, Buell, Andy Statman, hmmmmm can't recall who was on guitar, might have been Carlini & Grisman. #Now that was a cool 2 mandolin band there. #As I recall it was like a special gig in between versions of the DGQ."

That was a cool gig....
I've got a recording of it here somewhere...
Statman was on fire...

humblemex
Mar-07-2007, 6:37pm
Arthur,

Impressive memory for someone who hung around the Dead a lot.

Since you mentioned it, here's a jump ahead in chronology to the David Grisman Orchestra from May 27, 1978.

L-R: Darol Anger, John Carlini, Todd Phillips, Andy Statman, Dawg, Buell Neidlinger, Tony Rice, and Richard Greene. Actually, this was during the finale when Todd joined the band onstage for "Ricochet."

SternART
Mar-07-2007, 7:33pm
Great service Jon!!!
Buell & Richard opened with a duet set......I remember an incredible version of Danny Boy!

Spruce.....Buell is full of GREAT stories, he has retired up your way hasn't he? Another
island dweller. If you run into him, please give him my regards!

mandopete
Mar-07-2007, 7:46pm
He was at Wintergrass a couple of years ago with "Buell-grass" featuring people like Danny Barnes. As I recall he even played a Monk tune and handed each of the band members a lead sheet. I'm not sure how man of them, besides Danny, even read music.

JeffD
Mar-07-2007, 8:01pm
Malicorne - one of the best folk-rock bands of all time.

Niles H
Yes yes and again yes.

The French "Steeleye Span", perhaps in many ways more interesting.

humblemex
Mar-07-2007, 10:24pm
Buellgrass

Peter Hackman
Mar-08-2007, 4:00am
"The hallmark of DAWG music is that it really can't be lumped into any genre."
Which is why I love Dawg, Its music. Just plain sweet music.
Man, this has come full circle to the very raison d'etre of Dawg Music. The little blurb by one Janice Bain on the back of K F-5 says it all...and I paraphrase from memory..."They started calling them dawg music. The wierd tunes that were no longer bluegrass, tunes with a difference..."

The whole thing of [naming] it was for it to live in a world where labels are necessary, per the music/commercial/ business viewpoint. I would hazard that David hardly wanted to name it at all....but I'm glad he did # #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
But she had to mention "bluegrass" , "no longer bluegrass", as if
the music came from there, or was a conscious negation of that
genre, instead of just an affirmation of the players' temperaments
and varied backgrounds.

One reason I did not take to the DGQ in 77 was that it was presented
to me as the latest in bg or even the "future" at a time when I
had closed the door on that tradition. The labels blocked me. More
importantly, though, I was deeply into other things, e.g. the extremely varied and open-minded jazz scene of the day, especially in Europe.
When my listening habits gradually
changed (I had all but stopped playing) there was room for this kind of stuff
and I got Hot Dawg and the Anger-Marshall collaborations before
the Kaleidoscope LP.

Had I been playing in 77 that LP could have come as an answer to my prayers.
Being frustrated with the limitations of BG, and not quite a jazz player
(I just knew some things about its harmony), that LP could have sparked my
desire to play again, and helped validate some of the things I had been fumbling with in the early 70's, a sort of neither-nor music.

My question was prompted by the fact that Grisman actually gave a seminar
on "jazz/bg hybrids". Was that his way of thinking of his own music or just the subject commissioned? Well, Ligeti once was asked to deliver a lecture
on the future of music, and realizing nothing could be said he said nothing -
that was his lecture. There's always a way uf unasking the question.

If someone were to ask me what the DGQ was about I would probably say
"a string band parallel to jazz" (I could even make that more explicit)
No Schidt about "fusion", "genre-busting", or "integration".

AlanN
Mar-08-2007, 7:05am
The old set lists often included My Plastic Banana Is Not Stupid. Tony Rice recorded it (called Plastic Banana) on his eponymous Rounder release.

My question to those in-the-know: is this a TR original? It is a fun tune to pick, and has a tricky move where it goes from Bb to A.

SternART
Mar-08-2007, 10:03am
Isn't that a David Nichtern tune? I seem to recall them introducing it that way....but I could be wrong.

Spruce
Mar-08-2007, 11:01am
Buellgrass


Well Buell did record a couple LPs under the moniker "Buellgrass", and they are keepers for sure...

In fact, you could add that band to the top of the list of newgrass pioneers....
I think they were playing in the late 70's, and recording around '80 or so...

Lineup:

BUELL NEIDLINGER bass
RICHARD GREENE violin
ANDY STATMAN mandolin and clarinet
PETER IVERS harmonicas
PETER ERSKINE drums
MARTY KRYSTALL tenor, soprano saxes and clarinets

Check one LP out here (http://www.k2b2.com/across_the_tracks.html)...

BTW, I just had a listen to a crazy live Spinal Tap bootleg with Richard Greene sitting in on "Clam Caravan"....
Pretty cool....

Check it out here (http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=137110)...

250sc
Mar-08-2007, 11:16am
I think I'll have to buy a copy of that one. Didn't Peter Erskine used to play in Weather Report. I know I recognize the name from somewhere.

Peter Hackman
Mar-08-2007, 11:24am
I think I'll have to buy a copy of that one. Didn't Peter Erskine used to play in Weather Report. I know I recognize the name from somewhere.
He's recorded with Ralph Towner. Also toured and recorded with
British pianist John Taylor and Swedish bass player Palle Danielsson.
Several CDs on ECM.

mandopete
Mar-08-2007, 11:45am
Didn't Peter Erskine used to play in Weather Report. I know I recognize the name from somewhere.
Yes. I also saw him with Stan Kenton's Big Band in high school. He's one of my all-time favorite jazz drummers.

humblemex
Mar-08-2007, 11:54am
Check one LP out here (http://www.k2b2.com/across_the_tracks.html)...
Oh, yeah. That is way cool. Ordering that one now. Spruce, could you or someone please post a link to tutorial on the world of torrents and the software necessary to play them. Is this the same as .shn files?

Jon

gr_store_feet
Mar-08-2007, 12:15pm
Gentleman, many thanks for the torrents. Can't wait...

Spruce
Mar-08-2007, 12:44pm
Check one LP out here (http://www.k2b2.com/across_the_tracks.html)...
Oh, yeah. That is way cool. Ordering that one now. Spruce, could you or someone please post a link to tutorial on the world of torrents and the software necessary to play them. Is this the same as .shn files?

Jon
Well, torrents are dicey for me to explain. #I think someone else might be able to do that better...

I'm heavily into Dimeadozen (http://www.dimeadozen.org/) these days.

Set that page to your default page, so that if you get an opening, you'll be able to sign up. #They only allow 100,000 members (or something like that), but openings do come up, and you'll be able to sign up within a few days or so if you keep trying...

Configuring your computer to download torrents is a bit tricky (I'm running a Mac), but doable for the layman. #There's a FAQ page at Dimeadozen that will run you through it...

Anyway, all these fantastic concerts come up there on a regular basis...

I'm just now figuring out how to upload all the concerts I recorded back in the day, so I'll be able to give back to the community soon...

Oh, and check out Wolfgang's Vault (http://concerts.wolfgangsvault.com/)...

There's a pretty cool collection (mostly rock) of shows there...

The Hendrix stuff from Winterland is just incredible, as are others like this one (http://concerts.wolfgangsvault.com/ConcertDetail.aspx?id=50311&#124;3230) or this gem (http://concerts.wolfgangsvault.com/ConcertDetail.aspx?id=26601&#124;6061)...

Anyway, everything is out there these days in the best quality imaginable...
Pretty damn cool.... # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

jefflester
Mar-08-2007, 12:49pm
Check one LP out here (http://www.k2b2.com/across_the_tracks.html)...
Oh, yeah. That is way cool. Ordering that one now. Spruce, could you or someone please post a link to tutorial on the world of torrents and the software necessary to play them. Is this the same as .shn files?

Jon
torrents are a distribution method, not a file type. The files are either SHN or FLAC.

Check out http://wiki.etree.org/ for FAQs about SHN, FLAC, and BitTorrent.

-Jeff (your suite-mate from Mando Sypoisum 2004, Hi Jon!)

humblemex
Mar-08-2007, 1:16pm
Thanks Bruce and Jeff,

I've done as Bruce suggested in setting my default homepage. Right this minute they have 100,001 users. As for Wolfgang's Vault, I've been keeping Audio HiJack Pro very busy grabbing as much as that as I want, and there is lots.

Now I'm headed over to the etree FAQ page Jeff suggested. Time to ramp up on this stuff because there is so much great stuff available. Any other tutorial recommendations and download sites are much appreciated.

Jon

bush-man
Mar-08-2007, 5:22pm
Jon, once you get a bit torrent client, and there are a lot of them, then all you need to do is click on the torrent you want to download it. You will find a good explination of how torrents work on the etree faq. etree is a fantastic source of torrents, and the site I use most. It is strictly a "taper friendly" site, so you will only find artists that allow taping there.

http://bt.etree.org/

russell

glauber
Mar-09-2007, 12:56pm
For a Windows-based client, my recommendation is utorrent (micro-torrent). Torrents are very good for downloading big files. Just leave your computer on. It's surprisingly fast when other people are also downloading, because the application polls the network bandwidths, otherwise it's very slow but dependable. I've had shows take 3 weeks to download.

humblemex
Mar-10-2007, 11:59am
Though it was Dawg's vision that launched his new synthesis of acoustic music, it wouldn't have developed quite the same way without the musicians who implemented that vision. David and Tony were the most out-front sound of the band, and we've talked about Todd's contributions, but in the long run Darol Anger has been the most adventurous and new acoustic music's greatest ambassador. In fact, it was he who coined the term "new acoustic music." As far as I'm concerned, his body of work and contributions to the world of string-band music is unparalleled.

Darol discovered Dawg the same way many of us did, through Old and in the Way. The difference is that it wasn't Garcia who attracted him but Vassar Clements. He was living in Santa Cruz when someone gave him a couple of bootleg tapes of the Great American Music Band with Richard Greene. He and Todd were good buddies playing in rival bluegrass bands at the time Todd was taking mandolin lessons from David. One day Todd invited Darol to a jam with Grisman. They played some of Dawg's tunes, and when David discovered Darol knew all the parts and Richard's solos, he asked him to come back the next week. The invite stretched into nine years.

Even before Darol left the band in 1984, he and Mike Marshall had been begun collaborating as a duet and with Saheeb, an innovative quartet with pianist Barbara Higbie and violinist David Balakrishnan. After that came the Montreaux Band, which had an enormous impact on the Adult Contemporary format. He and Balakrishnan then co-founded the Turtle Island String Quartet, which bridged the world of chamber music and jazz as no group has before or since. After that came Psychograss, The Duo, Fiddlers Four, and his current project, Republic of Strings with guitarist Scott Nygaard, the brilliant and innovative cellist Rushad Eggleston, and a revolving crew of brilliant young violinists such as Brittany Haas, Gabe Witcher, Jeremy Kittel, and Sara Watkins.

In 2005, the CD release of "Heritage," his "guided tour through America's great folk songs" in collaboration with artists such as Willie Nelson, Jane Siberry, Tim O'Brien, John Gorka, and Mavis Staples finally appeared. This is an incredible recording that I highly recommend to everybody here.

He has also a dedicated educator and helped found the String Resource Board of the International Association of Jazz Educators and regularly teaches at the Berklee School of Music.

As you can tell, I am an enormous fan of Darol's. In addition to his plethora of talent, he is a genuinely humble and nice guy.

For anyone interested, you can still find a fascinating interview with him on NPR's website at http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1765248

Spruce
Mar-10-2007, 1:10pm
Yep on all that....

Hey, do any of you Bay Area old-timers (figuratively speaking) remember a gig at the GAMH that was MC'ed by the Dawg, and featured Byron Berline (for sure) and (I think) Vassar Clements and their bands??

I think this was my first visit to the GAMH, so it might have been '73 or so??

My memories are very vague about this show (I went backstage #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif #), and I'd love to have them re-installed....

Did U shoot any pics of that night, Jon??

Anyway, it turned into a mega-jam as I remember, and was my first live exposure to that whole world...

Love to hear from anybody with brain cells remaining from that night...

SternART
Mar-10-2007, 2:26pm
Lately Rushad Eggleston has been playing with his band Crooked Still, who really opened my ears at Wintergrass this year. Darol has had several time National Fiddle Champ Tristan Clarridge on cello in Republic of Strings this past year, and he gets to stand up & fiddle too......I saw Darol & Scott Nygard recently backing up the Anonomous 4, a quartet of women, classical singers, with chart topping CD's of Medieval music.....who recorded a coupla Americana/Roots music albums. Darol played both violin AND mandolin on this tour. I can think of 2 other groups that Darol was in while in the DGQ, one was the Darol Anger Cello Quartet,where Darol played cello, Bob Alekno on guitar, Dave Balakrishnan on violin & Mike. This was pre Saheeb, and really was the seeds of Turtle Island's sound as well as Darol's Republic of Strings. The other was Ook 'n 'm (spelled differently at each gig), but was basically the DGQ without Grisman: Mike, Darol, Todd & Tony, where they played their own original tunes, weird versions of Grisman's tunes, jazz standards, blew off steam and generally ran wild, naked in the streets. This sound was heard on projects like Fiddlistics, and was probably so much fun, it led to Tony & Todd forming the Tony Rice Unit. Psychograss is the closest thing today to Ook 'n 'M. Darol's great tunes like Key Signature, Ride the Wild Turkey & remember Megatones?! They would play way more outside than the DGQ, pushing & pulling the rhythm.....they always ended up on the beat & internally knew the pulse, but it got pleasantly weird. I think it is interesting that the stuff they used to do having fun & kinda goofing off became a bigger part of their style, as they matured as artists. That band was my favorite DGQ offshoot.......and I hear the evolution of this sound in Todd's playing with Grier & Flinner, as well as Psychograss. Darol is a brilliant musician combining a great ear, with a creative mind, always willing to venture into uncharted territory.

humblemex
Mar-10-2007, 3:13pm
Thanks Arthur. That's the great part of this being a collaborative effort: I don't have to remember everything on my own. How could I have forgotten 'ook 'n 'm? Actually, there have probably been several more bands Darol put together that I've forgotten about.

The photo says everything about the wild abandon these guys had with that band. They probably didn't do more than a half-dozen gigs but it was a great ride to see them turned loose from the Dawg's boundries. This was in 1978.

SternART
Mar-10-2007, 4:40pm
Jon that photo reminds me of a good gig....Anyone else at this show? the only time I recall the DGQ playing New Years eve at the GAMH? That was a tough ticket to get. Almost as hard as when the Grateful Dead played the GAMH for a live broadcast in 1975 that included Blues for Allah. The DGQ came out at the very end of the night, a few of them had been drinking pretty heavily, and they actually got up there and played each others instruments, might have even used the piano sometimes on stage.....I seem to recall Todd on piano. Boy...after some tight sets......that was a wild night, talk about playing outside.....I've seen Darol a few times at non DGQ gigs at the GAMH where he got wild & actually played fiddle lying down on his back, goofing off.....Dexter Anger can get carried away & have some fun. We used to call Darol "Dexter" and Todd was "Pop" as nicknames. Tony was just "T" and of course David was "Dawg". I was "Monsieur A" for the Citroen. As I recall it was Todd, Darol & I stood in line for great seats to see Dexter Gordon at the Keystone Corner Jazz Club. We were first row center, right at the stage....what a night! Well Gordon kinda mumbles when he talks, does much better thru his horn......there is a parallel to Anger there. We used to go out as a group to hear jazz when the big shots came to town. I have strong memories of us all looking down on the piano from the balcony on the left, for an Oscar Peterson gig at the Music Hall, with Joe Pass and Niels-Henning Orsted Pederson. Man we LOVED Niels!!! It was so great we spent big money next tour to see them at the Fairmont Hotel. Or we went to see Stephane Grappelli numerous times before the collaborations with Grisman started. Dizz Disley, and Philip Catherine on guitar & either Neils on bass on one tour, or maybe it was Brian Torf on another. Stephane would always play a piano solo during the set. Cool times, I was learning about REAL jazz by hangin out with these guys.

humblemex
Mar-10-2007, 5:14pm
I sure remember the New Year's Eve gig because it was 1978-79, the same night that the Dead closed Winterland. I had a gig shooting the Blues Brothers that night for the record company so I had tickets and backstage passes for two. I knew where my heart was, though. I wanted to celebrate New Year's with my friends at the Music Hall. So, after the Blues Brothers finished, I walked out the front door of Winterland, much to the amazement of the dozens of Deadheads standing outside. Before leaving, though, I picked out the prettiest young thing I could see and handed her a miracle ticket complete with backstage pass. Her expression was priceless. Of course, I had a tape of the Dead show within a week and finally got to actually see it a couple of years ago when the DVD was issued. To tell the truth, though, I'd much rather have a DVD of the DGQ show.

bennyb
Mar-10-2007, 10:20pm
Howdy all,
I don't have any inside stories to tell, but I remember my first DGQ show. After spending a few years in the woods, I returned to SF Bay Area, ran into a former girlfriend - she said I should check these guys out: so I went to the next show. It was at the College of Marin theatre, and I remember only a couple of things: one was how the rest of the band all looked like ...well hippies from the Bay Area, but Tony R. looked like he'd flown in directly from Nashville, all slick and polished(he sure could play though http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif, the other was when they played Ricochet with the three mandos: the whole show knocked me out, but that visual has stayed in my head. That was David, Todd, and Darol on mandos. Not sure what year? 77?

Bennyb

Peter Hackman
Mar-11-2007, 3:33am
Darol discovered Dawg the same way many of us did, through Old and in the Way. The difference is that it wasn't Garcia who attracted him but Vassar Clements. He was living in Santa Cruz when someone gave him a couple of bootleg tapes of the Great American Music Band with Richard Greene. He and Todd were good buddies playing in rival bluegrass bands at the time Todd was taking mandolin lessons from David. One day Todd invited Darol to a jam with Grisman. They played some of Dawg's tunes, and when David discovered Darol knew all the parts and Richard's solos, he asked him to come back the next week. The invite stretched into nine years.



For anyone interested, you can still find a fascinating interview with him on NPR's website at http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1765248
Speaking of Anger, anyone familiar with this stuff:

http://www.peterkaukonen.com/music/traveller.html

?

And now we can trace the roots of New Acoustic to the string band
that Peter K and me played in in the mid 60's when he was a student
at Stockholm U !!

SternART
Mar-11-2007, 10:54am
Sweet Pete, I think his brother Jorma's tune "Embryonic Journey".....on Surrealistic Pillow....
is kinda like roots music for me, that acoustic instrumental really spoke to me in my youth.

AlanN
Mar-11-2007, 11:54am
An old Saheeb flyer

Patrick Melly
Mar-12-2007, 4:19pm
"..but in the long run Darol Anger has been the most adventurous and new acoustic music's greatest ambassador. "

I can share a Darol story. I left San Francisco in '78 to enter grad school at UCLA film school, leaving behind my musical buddies but bringing along my enthusiasm for the DGQ. In '82 I was finishing my thesis film, building the tracks for the final mix, trying various cuts from recordings against the picture, and I tried a Anger/Barbara Higbie fiddle/piano duet called Brann St. Sonata ( "Fiddlistics', Kaleidoscope F-8) which was perfect. I found Darol playing with Mike Marshall at McCabe's (touring as "the Duo"), and introduced myself by the coffee machine. Darol and Barbara agreed to score the movie; I flew them down to LA when the time came & put them up in my daughter's room in our Venice apartment. We recorded them on the film department scoring stage, gathering a small crowd around the open door as they rehearsed between takes. I still remember that day as a peak experience; they came prepped with scores for the various cues, but could improvise anything,could take any suggestion and run with it. The score evolved throughout the day - changing shape as the two of them played with their eyes glued to the screen, playing off of gestures, emotions, looks...whatever caught their eye.
Plus, as others have said before me, Darol is a great guy - a pleasure to be around. Barbara as well. Their collaborations
are well worth revisiting: Tideline , Live at Montreux, Sign Language.

SternART
Mar-12-2007, 5:17pm
Cool story Patrick.......that was a great partnership back in the day.

humblemex
Mar-12-2007, 6:18pm
Saheeb

Spruce
Mar-13-2007, 11:10am
"To tell the truth, though, I'd much rather have a DVD of the DGQ show."

Duh.... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Anybody attend a Tom Waits/DGQ show at Zellerbach in '78 or so??
That was an interesting evening....

Or a gig when the Guild of American Luthiers had their convention in SF, and hired the DGQ to play?
(And lost their shirt in the process)....

One of my favs was their second gig, at a church in Berkeley....
No mics, just pure tones in a good room...

Man, you know you're getting old when you realize that it's been a few months shy of 40 years since the first time you saw Hendrix, even though it seems like yesterday....
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Peter Hackman
Mar-13-2007, 11:50am
"..but in the long run Darol Anger has been the most adventurous and new acoustic music's greatest ambassador. "

I can share a Darol story. I left San Francisco in '78 to enter grad school at UCLA film school, leaving behind my #musical buddies but bringing along my enthusiasm for the DGQ. In '82 I was finishing my thesis film, building the tracks for the final mix, trying various cuts from recordings against the picture, and I tried a #Anger/Barbara Higbie fiddle/piano duet called Brann St. Sonata ( "Fiddlistics', Kaleidoscope F-8) #which was perfect. I found Darol playing with Mike Marshall at McCabe's (touring as "the Duo"), and introduced myself by the coffee machine. Darol and Barbara agreed to score the movie; I flew them down to LA when the time came & put them up in my daughter's room in our Venice apartment. #We recorded them on the film department scoring stage, gathering a small crowd around the open door as they rehearsed between takes. I still remember that day as a peak experience; they came prepped with #scores for the various cues, but could improvise anything,could take any suggestion and run with it. The score evolved throughout the day - changing shape as the two of them played with their eyes glued to the screen, playing off of gestures, emotions, looks...whatever caught their eye.
Plus, as others have said before me, Darol is a great guy - a pleasure to be around. Barbara as well. Their collaborations
are well worth revisiting: #Tideline , Live at Montreux, #Sign Language.
Tideline is a fantastic album. As, to my ears, it somehow connects
with DGQ and all the stuff it inspired, the prevalent mutli-labels
become even more ridiculous.

But who am I to oppose #the almighty Internet? Inserting the disc
in my computer I can unequivocally determine the appropriate label
for any commercial CD. DGQ: country. Mike Marshall, Gator
Strut: Jazz. Marshall's Brazilian Duets: Folk.
And Tideline, the ultimate insult: New Age.

SternART
Mar-13-2007, 3:40pm
Saheeb.....they would end shows with the original "fiddles of doom quartet". Usually would play a Monroe tune or medley......take it to the outer limits and back. It is always fun seeing Mike on fiddle too....seems that Gator can play anything with strings. Looks like Dave musta come from another gig or something, he looks a little over dressed for Saheeb, doesn't he?

jasona
Mar-13-2007, 4:25pm
Anybody attend a Tom Waits/DGQ show at Zellerbach in '78 or so?? That was an interesting evening....
Shoot, there a recording of this out there? One of my greatest thrills from my time in California was bumping into Tom Waits at a gas station on the 5 between LA and the Bay.

Monte37
Mar-13-2007, 6:24pm
Spruce,
I was at that gig in Berkely as well. We do date ourselves this way. What was the name of that place? Those were all such great concerts as we were seeing it all for the first time. Didn't Rudy play that day as well?

Spruce
Mar-13-2007, 7:23pm
I don't remember Rudy, but the church was on Bonita Street...

I do remember that they played "Lonnie's Lament", an old Coltrane tune that I never heard them play again...

humblemex
Mar-13-2007, 9:41pm
Anybody attend a Tom Waits/DGQ show at Zellerbach in '78 or so??
That was an interesting evening....

Or a gig when the Guild of American Luthiers had their convention in SF, and hired the DGQ to play?
(And lost their shirt in the process)....
Don't remember the Tom Waits show. Sorry I missed that one somehow. The only DGQ Zellerbach shows I have any record of were January 1980 and November 1982, when the DGQ opened for Big Mon.

I do remember the GAL gig, though. That was July, 1980. Not only did the DGQ play (Anger, Marshall, O'Connor, Wasserman) but Dawg did a bluegrass set with Sandy Rothman on banjo. I think that was the first time he met Stephen Gilchrist face to face.

AlanN
Mar-14-2007, 6:04am
Man, that is some photo. I would not have recognized that man as Gilchrist.

SternART
Mar-14-2007, 9:08am
27 years has added a tad of grey on both them boyz.

humblemex
Mar-15-2007, 8:26pm
The Quintet performed regularly throughout 1977 but began to slow down as 1978 got underway. Lots of things were happening. In January, Tony went into the studio at 1750 Arch to start recording "Manzanita" with Sam Bush, Ricky Skaggs, Jerry Douglas, and Dawg. Around the same time, Grisman accepted a commission from Dino De Laurentiis to write the score for "King of the Gypsies," a big budget film starring Sterling Hayden, Shelley Winters, Susan Sarandon, Brooke Shields, Judd Hirsch, Annette O'Toole and Eric Roberts. When De Laurentiis asked David who would like to hire to execute the score, he told him Stephane Grappelli. I believe Tony and Diz Disley were featured on guitar. Shortly thereafter, David also began work on "Hot Dawg," the second DGQ album.

The film faded pretty quickly after release, though it was not a stinko by any means. Roberts even drew a Golden Globe nomination for Best Motion Picture Male Acting Debut. The score was terrific, and both Stephane and David appeared in the film as musicians. Famed San Francisco producer David Rubinson told me he thought it was the best film score since "The Third Man," a classic film noire starring Joseph Cotton and Orson Welles made in 1949. High praise indeed. A soundtrack recording was planned but scrapped when the film disappeared so quickly. However, at least two of the tunes, "Gypsy Swing" and "The Tipsy Gypsy" made it into the DGQ repertoire for a while. Unfortunately, the film has not been released on DVD but I just ordered a used VHS copy on Amazon. There are still at least 20 available.

In April, Stephane made his annual appearance at the Music Hall with his band, guitarists John Ethridge and Diz Disley, and bassist Brian Torff. David and Tony sat in on several tunes. Dawg's beard was just growing back from having been shaved for the movie. It was a great night, with Tiny Moore and Frank Wakefield showing up backstage to jam and meet Stephane.


L-R: Tony Rice, Stephane Grappelli, David Grisman, Diz Disley. Bassist Brian Torff is hidden. And, no, you are not hallucinating. Tony is playing an Ovation, whom he briefly had an endorsement deal with. Fortunately, free guitars and a couple of bucks were not enough, and he got over it quickly.

SternART
Mar-15-2007, 9:37pm
Wasn't it John Carlini in the movie on guitar......and there is a great scene with Grisman, kinda like last men standing? no they were sitting...... leaning against each other.....last guys from the band still playing......wasted..... at the end of the Gipsy wedding bash. You know Gipsies party hard....Been awhile since I've seen it, seems like maybe they had a D'Angelico archtop that John was playing. Grisman had a BIG moustache, he wasn't totally clean shaven, Gipsy garb of fedora type hat & vest over a big collar shirt. He looked quite the part. Anyone seen it more recently than me?

humblemex
Mar-15-2007, 11:51pm
That would make sense that Carlini was the other guitar player since he was intimately involved in the production of the score. I haven't seen the movie since it came out, so I'm looking forward to getting the VHS tape from Amazon.

Peter Hackman
Mar-16-2007, 9:07am
L-R: Tony Rice, Stephane Grappelli, David Grisman, Diz Disley. Bassist Brian Torff is hidden. And, no, you are not hallucinating. Tony is playing an Ovation, whom he briefly had an endorsement deal with. Fortunately, free guitars and a couple of bucks were not enough, and he got over it quickly.
There's reference to Ovation on several of Rice's Rounder albums.
Not sure how much he used their products, but to my ears several of the
cuts do not have the typical sound of his D28. I understand
he also used a Cruz.

mandopete
Mar-16-2007, 9:11am
You know, that picture above with Frank Wakefield makes me think that we have not discussed Frank's influence on the Dawg. Given Frank's unique vision of music and mandolin playing, do other's here think that is part of the evolution of Dawg music that has been somewhat overlooked?

Scotti Adams
Mar-16-2007, 9:23am
You know, that picture above with Frank Wakefield makes me think that we have not discussed Frank's influence on the Dawg. Given Frank's unique vision of music and mandolin playing, do other's here think that is part of the evolution of Dawg music that has been somewhat overlooked?
Absoluletly...On the Ovation issue...Crowe told me that T used the Ovation on a few cuts of the infamous New South 0044 Lp..Crowe himself used the Ovation on the Gospel cuts on the Bluegrass Album Band Lps in which he did the Scruggs style guitar pickin.

mandolooter
Mar-16-2007, 9:26am
Im with Pete on this...what do you guys think?

Thats a great pic of Frank n them too...thanks for all these great pic's Jon!

mandopete
Mar-16-2007, 9:28am
I was looking for that photo of Dave and Frank jamming (I think it was Fincastle), but I coudn't find it anywhere. That has always been one of my favs.

mandolooter
Mar-16-2007, 9:42am
Ya know, I don't think I've ever seen a pic of Frank with a mando in his hand without a big smile...he's one happy guy when he's pickin!

SternART
Mar-16-2007, 9:42am
Frank taught Grisman how to play like Monroe.......I think at the time Wakefield had the best handle on
Monroe's style. Of course this was when David was a pup, he produced a Red Allen album when he was very young,
I think less than 20 years old.....mid 1960's maybe. So he was hangin' with Frank in those days. Then there is
the Kitchen Tapes. Frank was definitely a mentor to Grisman.....much like David was to Statman.

mandopete
Mar-16-2007, 9:50am
I agree, but I think it's more than just that. #While Frank certainly influenced David's view of bluegrass, I think it also spilled over into Dawg music as well. #Frank's adventurous spirit must have surely had an effect on Grisman in his earlier years. #There's that unique version of Black Mountain Rag on Early Dawg and I've always thought that Frank's way of thinking about music must have crept into David's consciousness.

AlanN
Mar-16-2007, 10:02am
I was looking for that photo of Dave and Frank jamming (I think it was Fincastle), but I coudn't find it anywhere. #That has always been one of my favs.
T'weren't Fincastle.

That was during the late 70's, when Frank had re-located to California and recorded the Blue Stay Away From Me record with Glik and Tom Stern, and Lindner boys.

AlanN
Mar-16-2007, 10:25am
Cool book, fer sure. But had the ladder + fire hydrant cartoon, never did get that &lt;g&gt;.

humblemex
Mar-16-2007, 12:00pm
I agree, but I think it's more than just that. #While Frank certainly influenced David's view of bluegrass, I think it also spilled over into Dawg music as well.....I've always thought that Frank's way of thinking about music must have crept into David's consciousness.
David has widely proclaimed his debt to Frank's help and influence, particularly in terms of composition.

SternART
Mar-16-2007, 4:53pm
I didn't think Frank had written very many tunes back in those Red Allen days, but there were some chestnuts....New Camptown Races among others.....he had a very prolific period of writing tons of instrumentals all titled "Jesus Loves this Mandolin Player #, all were consecutively numbered, but this was at a later point in his career. If I'm not mistaken, he started writing them after surviving a serious automobile accident. Someone ought record all those while they can.....some sound New Acoustic, others classical, all very complex instrumentals basically for solo mandolin. I think there are dozens of them. Anyone else know more about these? What year did he start writing them?

David told me Cedar Hill has the chords from a Wakefield tune for the A part....and he added his melody over it, and the minor/major bridge to it.

AlanN
Mar-16-2007, 5:35pm
#I think there are dozens of them. #Anyone else know more about these? What year did he start writing them?



David told me Cedar Hill has the chords from a Wakefield tune for the A part....and he added his melody over it, and the minor/major bridge to it.
I think there are dozens of them. Anyone else know more about these? What year did he start writing them?

Inspired by his solo performances during the early 70's at the famous Cafe Lena in Saratoga Springs, NY, where Lena (now deceased) told him to polish those up and record them.

The tune is "Couldn't Leave Well Enough Alone"

Spruce
Mar-17-2007, 11:13am
I have some weird and wonderful memories of Frank playing the Opry in Burlington, Vermont, in '73 or so...

He did a whole solo set of those "Jesus Loves" tunes, but before tearing into them, he took every microphone on stage (7-8 or so??) and set it up in front of his mandolin....

It looked like a White House press conference up there, with Frank grinnin' that feces-eating grin, and banging away on those tunes....

Pretty memorable... # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Emonortem
Mar-17-2007, 12:13pm
Hey guys, thanks so much for this thread. I just purchased a whole lot of Dawg music on iTunes and reading this thread has been amazing, allowing me to attach a story to the music I'm listening to (and trying to play!). Not to mention it's given me something to do at work for the last three days!

I've got a question, how do you pronounce Stephane Grapelli's name? He sure was good...

Once again, thanks for this insider perspective for this young guy! I'm totally loving learning all this "history"!

tango_grass
Mar-17-2007, 1:45pm
I've got a question, how do you pronounce Stephane Grapelli's name? #He sure was good...
Stef- on Grappelli.

But I am probably wrong.

If I was stuck on a desert island and had to jam with one musician for the rest of eternity, it would have to be Stephane Grappelli. I love him.

Live
David Grisman with Stephane Grappelli has to be the best live jazz album ever. To me.

humblemex
Mar-17-2007, 10:35pm
DYLAN AND THE DAWG

I digress a few years to recount a story David told me when I was preparing a chapter for a book on fan encounters with Dylan a few years ago. Sorry, don't have photos of the two together. This surely falls under the umbrella of Dawgology.


"Though we were there at the same time, and played in some of the same clubs, I didn’t know Bob Dylan in the Village. I used to see him around on the street, but I didn't really appreciate that singer/songwriter sort of music then. To me, they were just singing songs and not tuning their guitars. I was into the real folk musicians, like Clarence Ashley, Roscoe Holcomb, and Doc Watson.

My first real contact with him was in 1974, when he called me out of the blue for some mandolin lessons. I didn’t really believe it was him on the phone. It sounded like him, but I’d never met the guy. A half-hour later, he was on my back porch with a blonde Gibson F-4. He stayed for three days and then disappeared. Bob was a fine student, but he wasn’t that interested in the technical stuff. I showed him some basic fingering and some chords, but I think he just wanted to learn how to write a song on the mandolin. He was interested in bluegrass music and all the other stuff that I was into, so we mostly just listened to records and hung out. I charged him $15.00 a day for the lessons, and he still owes me three dollars.

The next week, my band opened for Bill Monroe at the Palomino Club in Los Angeles. Dylan was real interested in Bill, so I’d told him about the gig. So here we are, playing our new music at a gig opening for Bill Monroe. After our set--Bill had come in after we started--I was out in the parking lot and [violinist] Richard Greene came out and said, “I just saw Bill Monroe, and he ignored me. I stood next to him for 10 minutes, and he didn’t acknowledge my existence.” See, not only had Richard played in Bill’s band, but Bill had always praised him. But this night, he was giving Richard the cold shoulder.

I said, “Well, he’s not gonna do that to me.” We were tight; he used to call me up onstage; I named my son Monroe Grisman. He was into me when I was playing successor to the throne, but I wasn’t so sure how he’d be now that I wasn’t playing just bluegrass. So I went inside, and I’m standing in the doorway to the dressing room, wondering if I should go say hello or what, and all of a sudden who shows up but Dylan and Robbie Robertson. Bob says, “I really dug the set. Hey, I want to meet the man!” So, here I am about to be possibly snubbed by Bill, and I have to introduce Bob Dylan to him. Suddenly, Bill turns toward me, sticks out his hand, and smiles. He was real impressed when I introduced Dylan to him; they sang “I Saw the Light” together backstage."

Spruce
Mar-18-2007, 11:26am
"I charged him $15.00 a day for the lessons, and he still owes me three dollars."

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

mandopete
Mar-19-2007, 8:46am
Great story Jon!

gr_store_feet
Mar-19-2007, 9:01am
Fantastic story and a truly great thread . Thanks again.

craichead
Mar-19-2007, 1:01pm
L-R: Tony Rice, Stephane Grappelli, David Grisman, Diz Disley. Bassist Brian Torff is hidden. And, no, you are not hallucinating. Tony is playing an Ovation, whom he briefly had an endorsement deal with. Fortunately, free guitars and a couple of bucks were not enough, and he got over it quickly.
There's reference to Ovation on several of Rice's Rounder albums.
Not sure how much he used their products, but to my ears several of the
cuts do not have the typical sound of his D28. I understand
he also used a Cruz.
Manzanita was recorded using the Ovation. Not sure which tunes, but I think the title track is one of them. According to his wife, Pamela, he still has it. There's some stuff on Tony's message board about it a couple years ago. Maybe you could search it if you're interested.

I wonder if he still has the old Hylo Brown guitar he used to use.....

craichead
Mar-19-2007, 1:03pm
You know, that picture above with Frank Wakefield makes me think that we have not discussed Frank's influence on the Dawg. Given Frank's unique vision of music and mandolin playing, do other's here think that is part of the evolution of Dawg music that has been somewhat overlooked?
If you listen close to Early Dawg, some of the licks are note for note Wakefield.

humblemex
Mar-19-2007, 2:52pm
[&#92;On the Ovation issue...Crowe told me that T used the Ovation on a few cuts of the infamous New South 0044 Lp..Crowe himself used the Ovation on the Gospel cuts on the Bluegrass Album Band Lps in which he did the Scruggs style guitar pickin.

Who am I to argue with J.D. but I am skeptical of the claim that Tony used it on Rounder 0044. That was recorded in 1975, and the first time I saw it surface was at the Grappelli gig in 1978. That's also the year I shot the photo for this poster for Ovation. Maybe he had it that long, but I wonder why Ovation waited until 1978 to use him as an endorsee. Whatever, it just goes to prove the old adage that it's the player and not the guitar that ultimately makes the sound. Tony Rice could get tone and power out of a rock with strings on it.

Scotti Adams
Mar-19-2007, 3:09pm
..good point Jon..of course Crowes memory probably isnt as good as it once was. I can see it being used on the Manzanita Lp...that even looks like the same shirt T was wearing on the cover...if my memory is as good as it once was. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif ..though it does sound like the 'Bone thru-out the Lp.

Spruce
Mar-19-2007, 3:13pm
"Tony Rice could get tone and power out of a rock with strings on it. "

That's a pretty good description of an Ovation, Jon... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

jmcgann
Mar-19-2007, 3:16pm
Another disheartening fact for 'instrument owners'- if the sound ain't in the hands, how does Tony always sound like a million bucks? (I heard he might have used the Ovation on Hot Dawg* as well...)

I've been told (by friends who have played it) that the Clarence D28 has action so low you can barely get a #breath between the strings and the fingerboard #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

*Astute observers will note that I timed my post to coincide with the track on side two on which Mr. Grapelli appears http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

humblemex
Mar-19-2007, 3:52pm
I can see it being used on the Manzanita Lp...that even looks like the same shirt T was wearing on the cover...if my memory is as good as it once was.
Your memory passes the test if you mean the back cover. He wore a silver-colored silk shirt on the cover playing the 28. I was at a couple of the "Manzanita" sessions but I never saw the Ovation there. It's entirely possible that it was used, however.

What an album. I love everything Tony has done but "Manzanita" remains my favorite of all the albums he sang on. What a band that was. The speed in which they worked and the comradrie in the studio was awesome. In October, 1979, Tony, Sam, Ricky, Flux, and Todd reunited under the banner of the Manzanita Band for a one-time gig at the Great American Music Hall and played pretty much the whole album. There's a tape of that gig floating around out there.

humblemex
Mar-19-2007, 3:58pm
Tony and Ricky at the Manzanita Sessions
January 25, 1978

jmcgann
Mar-19-2007, 5:01pm
For people with banjo-phobia, Manzanita is a great introduction/seduction into bluegrass- I have sprung it on many a student at Berklee who flipped for it! A desert island disc, for sure!

humblemex
Mar-20-2007, 8:41pm
Enough about the Ovation. Let's talk about Tony's legendary D-28. I understand there is a current article in a magazine about it, but I haven't read it. What I offer here is a transcript of my interview with him in 1977 for a Guitar Player article. It's long but worth the effort I think.

Unfortunately, I only have black and white shots of the guitar. I turned over my color slides to Tony at one point when he was doing an album cover and never got them back. That was my fault for not pursuing them.


HOW DID YOU MEET CLARENCE?

# # #I met Clarence when I was nine and he was 16. My father's band was playing on the same radio show as the Country Boys, which is the name the White Brothers used then. They were out in back of the building playing when I walked out and saw this cat playing that guitar. It was the first D-28 I'd ever seen up close and I was really struck by the white binding. There was something about the guitar that made it really look old and musty. It was all beat up. I asked him if I could play it and he said "Sure." Back then Clarence didn't play any lead at all. He just picked rhythm and runs.

# # # That old guitar really fascinated me and it finally ended up setting the standard for what I wanted to hear from a guitar. From that point on, nothing else sounded right to me. There were a couple I heard down through the years that really came close. Bill Monroe used to have a guitar that everybody that joined his band played. It came with the gig. Lester Flatt played it, Jimmy Martin played it -- a lot of cats like that. It was stolen during Peter Rowan's tenure in the band.

WHEN DID YOU FINALLY ACQUIRE THE GUITAR?

# # About two years ago [1975]. I haven't had it that long. That's a really interesting story. What's more interesting is how Clarence lost it or rather how he got himself in the position that he couldn't get it back. The story was told to me by Bobby Sloan, who played fiddle with the Colonels on "Appalacian Swing."

# # In 1963, the Colonels went back east for a tour. A couple of years earlier they had met a fellow named Joe Miller, whose family owned a chain of liquor stores in Southern California. Joe really liked bluegrass, and especially the Colonels, so he followed them around for quite awhile. At one point, he had told them that if they ever got strapped for money they should let him know. Sure enough, they got back there and got broke and hungry, and Joe ended up sending everybody in the band money except Roger Bush. Bobby had seen a couple of fiddles he wanted, so he called Joe and had him send some money. Clarence also borrowed some money from him.

# # They all got back to California and nobody really let Joe know they didn't have any money to pay him back. They just sort of figured that he would shine it on and forget it, except for Clarence. He was just getting out of bluegrass and getting into the electric guitar, so he decided he would give Joe the guitar to hold until he could get him his money back. Later on, they had some kind of words or misunderstanding about the debt of the whole band, and Joe decided the guitar was lawfully his and that Clarence couldn't get it back for any amount of money.

# # Right up until he died, Clarence had really tried to get it back because he had made a lot of money playing with the Byrds. He offered some ridiculous amount of money--several thousand dollars--but Joe refused to sell it to him as a matter of principle. Roland and Roger Bush also tried to get it back but he just wouldn't give it up to them. Incidentally, Billy Ray Latham was here just a while back and said all those cats are really pissed at me because I got it.

SO HOW DID IT FINALLY END UP IN YOUR HANDS?

After hearing the story, I picked up the phone one day on a wild hunch and called Miller's Liquor Store in Pasadena. Sure enough, I hit the right place. This guy's brother answered and gave me Joe's number. I called him up and he vaguely remembered me as a little kid who was an up-and-coming picker that followed Clarence around and learned licks from him in the dressing room. I asked him if would consider selling the guitar to me and he said yes. I sort of had a hunch that since Clarence was killed he might have had some regrets having the guitar in his house knowing how badly Clarence wanted it back. Sure enough, that was the scene. He wanted to get rid of it and was just waiting for the right guy to call. When he said he would sell it, I was sure it was going to be a lot of money because the guitar is worth a lot of money. It's a 1934, which was the first year they made them, and there were only 11 made. Norman Blake has one, and I think about six of them are accounted for.

# # Right after Clarence had given him the guitar, Joe took it to this old violin maker in El Monte to refinish it and get it back into shape. By the time Clarence got rid of it, it was in pretty rough shape. He would grab a D-18 when he played lead because the neck on the 'bone was bowed up and the top was sunk down and scratched up really bad. It hardly had any finish left on it. Plus, Clarence had gotten drunk and shot a hole it once. Still, it sound soooooo good.

So we got together on the thing and he said he needed to get it appraised. I thought he was going to take it to McCabe's or some place like that, and I fully expected that was going to have to go down to the bank and take out a loan for five or six thousand dollars. I had made up my mind that I was going to get it if I had to pay $15,000 for it. At that point it was no longer a question of money. It was available and I was going to get it.

Joe took it back to the old violin maker to have it appraised. I don't know where he got his information, but he told Joe that if the guitar was in mint condition it might be worth a grand. He estimated it to be worth five or six hundred dollars in its condition. I offered him the benefit of the doubt - $600. I got a plane ticket and flew out to L.A. to pick it up. I couldn't get to sleep that night knowing I was going to get my hands on that guitar the next morning. Of course I didn't know that it had been refinished. I thought it would look like it had when I first saw it. I remembered every little detail about it. After I picked it up, I took it to Randy Wood who reset the neck, re-bound, and re-fretted it. It's stayed in good shape since then.

humblemex
Mar-20-2007, 9:24pm
The patched bullet hole:

mandopete
Mar-21-2007, 9:29am
Enough about the Ovation. Let's talk about Tony's legendary D-28.
I was interviewed by a local magazine about the Wintergrass music festival here in Tacoma. #Here's a snippet from the article that appeared in January edition of the City Arts magazine...

Pete Goodall, a Seattle fan and picker, remembers volunteering backstage about ten years ago. #Tony Rice, one of the most influential guitar players in bluegrass, had just performed on a guitar previously owned by the late Clarence White, another legendary player.

"Tony Rice was there with the famous Martin guitar lying in its blue anvil flight case," Goodall recalls. #"I took a good long look at it and thought about how much great music had been made with that guitar. #A young man, maybe fourteen or fifteen, was gawking at it as well, when Tony said, 'Go ahead, play it!' Well the look on that young man's face was worth the price of admission! #He was a pretty good player and Tony commented that he sounded real good. #The boy's mother took a picture of him holding the guitar and standing next to Tony Rice. #To me that's what bluegrass music is all about".

mandopete
Mar-21-2007, 9:35am
The boy's mother took a picture of him holding the guitar and standing next to Tony Rice.
I got one too, but I was too shy to ask to hold the guitar.

&lt;grins&gt;

jmcgann
Mar-21-2007, 9:35am
Good man, Tony!!!

JEStanek
Mar-21-2007, 9:38am
Classy! Thanks for the story Pete!
Jamie

SternART
Mar-21-2007, 10:12am
The same story T. tells of seeing the guitar for the first time as a youngin'
and Clarence letting him play it.......What goes around comes around......

AlanN
Mar-21-2007, 11:06am
I guess this topic is all things Dawg,so...

Just put on my burned-from-LP copy of Dawg Grass/Dawg Jazz. Had been a while since I listened. Man, it sounds better than ever. The opening track on side 1 has Dawg doing his funky/deft/smooth thing in front of a swingin band. His triplet flurries are clean and perfect. And on the grass side, Happy Birthday Bill Monroe is perfect.

mandopete
Mar-21-2007, 11:10am
Just put on my burned-from-LP copy of Dawg Grass/Dawg Jazz.
Yes, one of my all-time favorite Grisman recordings. I wish it would get re-released on CD. Looks like I'm gonna have to follow your lead Alan!

Spruce
Mar-21-2007, 12:49pm
"The boy's mother took a picture of him holding the guitar and standing next to Tony Rice. To me that's what bluegrass music is all about".

AlanN
Mar-21-2007, 1:57pm
And that is David Grier on Clarence's left, no?

JEStanek
Mar-21-2007, 2:07pm
I want to know what's in the Coleman cooler! That picture is almost Brady-esque...

Jamie

mandopete
Mar-21-2007, 2:12pm
Looks like your average weekend at Darrington.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

tango_grass
Mar-21-2007, 2:51pm
Looks like your average weekend at Darrington.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

Yeah, Pretty much.


The guitar player in a bluegrass band I play with has one of the Martin Clarence White D-28 reproductions and man does that guitar kill! I swear I go to practice just to get 5 minutes to play it. #Now if only I could get ahold of Tony's guitar... # #
# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

humblemex
Mar-21-2007, 11:26pm
I've been told (by friends who have played it) that the Clarence D28 has action so low you can barely get a #breath between the strings and the fingerboard #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Granted it's been more than 25 years since I've played it, but that was not my experience. I found the action quite high. Also, I just found an interview I did with Darol about Tony where he said, "This band is the rhythm dukes! Tony can get more sheer volume out of an acoustic guitar than anybody I've ever heard. You just don't see that many guitar players who can get through a really fast tune at peak power and volume like he can. The action on Tony's guitar is like two inches off the fingerboard, which contributes to his power."

I don't question your friends' experiences, but I can't understand how he could get that kind of power with a really low action without rattling and breaking up. But then he does a lot of things on a guitar I never thought possible.

I just dug out another inteview I did with Tony when I was writing the liner notes for "Acoustics." He says that he played the 'bone on everything except "Four on Six" (Ovation) and "New Waltz" (Santa Cruz).

Maybe someday I'll get around to copying and transcribing all those early interviews with David, Tony, Darol, Mike, and Mark and post them. They're really interesting and insightful.

Spruce
Mar-22-2007, 11:33am
"Maybe someday I'll get around to copying and transcribing all those early interviews with David, Tony, Darol, Mike, and Mark and post them."

Well, you do seem to have a lot of time these days, Jon... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Really great to see you posting to these pages. Facinating thread all the way around....

johnparrott
Mar-22-2007, 3:20pm
Yes, this is a fascinating thread.

It could be that the guitar Clarence is playing in that fun photo was built by Mark Whitebook...

Lefty&French
Mar-22-2007, 3:40pm
once again...

mandopete
Mar-22-2007, 5:58pm
Yeah Officer, I was, um, you know, resting...

Spruce
Mar-22-2007, 6:59pm
"Looks like your average weekend at Darrington."

That dude even looks like Mike Oenbring... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

JEStanek
Mar-22-2007, 9:19pm
Jon, Thanks so much for this thread, and to you others who have shared stories as well. It's a valuable history.

Check this link for my reference to the Brady-esque photo from the Library of Congress. (http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/cph/3g00000/3g01000/3g01800/3g01827v.jpg)
Meant as a compliment, Jon.

Jamie

Peter Hackman
Mar-23-2007, 6:28am
once again...
Whiskey before Breakfast?

Lefty&French
Mar-23-2007, 7:36am
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif I just wanted to say "One more time" because I posted this very picture some times ago... and wondereed if some experts could perhaps identify the guitar!

johnparrott
Mar-23-2007, 11:09am
No expert here, but I saw and played a Whitebook guitar in Louisville that Country Gazette travelled with in the late 70s, and it looked very much like the one in that photo. Al Munde was playing (and singing) "Cherokee" on it backstage , and then he sang a short ditty called "The Ballad of Patty Hearst". It was a great sounding guitar, and I hope to play one like it again some day.

Let's see what those experts say, ...

humblemex
Mar-23-2007, 11:48am
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif I just wanted to say "One more time" because I posted this very picture some times ago... and wondereed if some experts could perhaps identify the guitar!
I believe it is a Whitebook, built by Mark Whitebook. That's something of a guess since I don't know of any other non-Martin acoustics that Clarence was associated with except one built by Roy Noble. The Whitebook is the guitar he was using at the time he was killed.

humblemex
Mar-25-2007, 4:49pm
A topic recently started in General Mandolin Discussions called "dawg" questioned the right and rationale for Grisman to call his music "Dawg Music" because it was made up of genres (bluegrass, jazz, classical, etc.) that already existed. You can check out the discussion so far on this but I've decided to post Dawg's explanation of labeling as he told me in an early '80s interview to this ongoing topic of Dawgology. It was triggered by a question I asked about the term "New Acoustic Music."

HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THE TERM "NEW ACOUSTIC MUSIC" AS COINED BY DAROL?

"Well it doesn't mean the same thing to me that it does to Darol. I sort of tend to take things literally, and I think it's too general of a term for me. New acoustic music would encompass *any* new acoustic music. Wynton Marsalis is playing new acoustic music and so is the Kronos Quartet. And, actually, how new is new? How old is old? I think he's trying to talk specifically about new acoustic string music. That's why I use the term "Dawg" because I look at it as a personal thing, and I think that's the way music should be looked at. That's what Bill Monroe was doing when he coined the term "bluegrass." He was trying to say that this is *my* music.

"Basically I think it's helpful to have a label but I figure what I'm doing isn't new. It's just me. When I think of "new" I think of modern. When I think of modern, to me there are things that went down in 1911 that are more modern than what I do. Plus new is always fading into old. I'm a firm believer that there's nothing new under the sun. And I don't think something has to be new to be good.

"I understand what Darol is getting at I but just wouldn't define it that way. It's too general. Maybe it should be New Acoustic String Music, but that gets pretty awkward to say. It's just a label. The term 'bluegrass' has no real meaning now. To some producer in Hollywood, bluegrass is anything that has a banjo in it or even anything with a vague country sound. I think categorizing comes after the fact. Actually, I like the term New Acoustic Music but it just encompasses more for me than it does for Darol. Terms, when used to define something, should be specific, not general. It's not important to call it anything. It's important to hear it."

BUT MUSIC IS CATEGORIZED BY THE MUSIC INDUSTRY IN ORDER TO MARKET AND DISTRIBUTE IT EFFICIENTLY.

"Darol ends up on the jazz charts and so do I. Ricky Skaggs ends up on the country charts. As far as I'm concerned I spent more of my career delving into bluegrass than I did jazz, but there are no charts for bluegrass music. I'm not really into a movement to institute a new category. I don't want to call my thing anything but mine. It's all about marketing. That's why we're trying to come up with these names. That's why I've tried to make a record that has a marketing concept. Finally, though, having a term like "Dawg music" doesn't mean a damn thing unless somebody can hear it and react to it."

mandopete
Mar-26-2007, 8:56am
Yeah, every time I go to Tower Records I'm looking for the "Dawg" section...

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

CharlieKnuth
Mar-26-2007, 10:59am
I wish Tower Records were still around to look for Dawg music or any kind of music. I hate to see record stores die.

Peter Hackman
Mar-26-2007, 11:00am
As I said before, there's an oracle deciding the labels of everything,
the computer.

Not quite sure whether this information is on the CDs or on the Internet,
however, checking one of my "New Acoustic" favorites,
Mike Marshall, and inserting a few of his CDs,
I found out:
Edgar Meyer: Uncommon Ritual: Classical
Anger-Marshall Band: Brand New Can: Folk
same band:Jam: Rock
Marshall et al, Wine Country: country (of course!)
The Duo, 1983: Country
Gator Strut: Jazz
which means that the Bach E major partita is both country and jazz,
truly genre-busting!

Almost everything by DGQ is country, except Grisman-Grapelli,
where I leave the label as an exercise.

SternART
Mar-26-2007, 11:08am
&lt;&lt;Yeah, every time I go to Tower Records I'm looking for the "Dawg" section...&gt;&gt;

Darn categories....like which XM station would you tune in...to hear the DGQ?!
I hear DGBX on their BG station, or Sam Bush on their Alternative Country station,
but what category would play Anger & Marshall or the DGQ?

humblemex
Mar-26-2007, 2:26pm
As I said before, there's an oracle deciding the labels of everything,
the computer.
Boy, that sure renders labels meaningless doesn't it? The funny part is that most track lists and labels are entered into the CDDB data base by record labels or by people who already own the CD. You'd think they would know better. Dawg music may be a lot of things but it sure isn't country.

mandopete
Mar-26-2007, 2:31pm
Yeah, it's more like latinjazzgrass to me!

...and I'm with Grisman on the term "New Acoustic Music" - that's vacant. Just about as bad "World Music" - ugh!

Jeff A
Mar-26-2007, 2:32pm
Arthur, I have heard DGQ on the Beyond Jazz channel on XM. I don't know what number it is.

chirorehab
Mar-26-2007, 4:54pm
Beyond Jazz is channel #72... I heard DGQ there, too!

Great thread...please keep it going!

Your experiences are priceless. With the pictures, I almost feel like I am watching a documentary....

Thanks & keep it coming!

I'd like to hear Don Steirnberg talk about the time Bill Monroe, Dawg & (I think) Frank W. came to see him play..

Eric

My 2 favorite albums of all time:
The first DGQ album & Manzanita

humblemex
Mar-27-2007, 2:52pm
1978 marked a year of change for the DGQ. As the year began, Tony started recording "Manzanita." A few months later, Darol began work on his album, "Fiddleistics." On Feb 10, the original DGQ with Tony, Darol, Todd, and Bill Amatneek played its final gig at the Great American Music Hall.

During those early months, David began writing and recording the score for "King of the Gypsies." Planning and writing also began on the band's second album, "Hot Dawg." Somewhere in the midst of this, he developed a severe case of tendonitis in his left wrist that dramatically restricted his playing. The condition lasted for months and threatened the progress of recording projects and live performances. His first move was to call in Andy Statman to help on rhythm parts, working with Tony and John Carlini on guitar, Stephane Grappelli on violin, and the great Ray Brown on bass.

In April, during the recording process, Stephane played his annual gig at the Music Hall discussed earlier, with David and Tony sitting in on several tunes. The David Grisman Orchestra gig with Statman, Buell, Richard Greene, Darol, and John Carlini came a month later on May 27. The night before, however, the DGQ played the Music Hall as a quartet with Todd on bass.

At some point, it became necessary to re-do some of the "Gypsies" soundtrack, and Andy couldn't get loose to fly out to L.A. Right about that time, June 1978, a 21-year-old kid from Florida named Mike Marshall literally turned up at David's door one day.

Mike and Dawg had been corresponding for almost two years by then, and Mike had an open invitation to visit anytime he was in the neighborhood. His timing couldn't have been better. In addition to David's injury, the DGQ was very much in a state of flux. Todd had decided he no longer wanted to play mandolin; his primary instrument was bass, and he wanted to do that, which explained the quartet gig. David immediately hired Mike to flesh out the movie soundtrack and set him up to start jamming with Darol, Tony, and Todd.

"I'd heard a tape of him so I knew he was good," David told me in a later interview. "He's the kind of guy where you notice his brilliance right away, and I've been noticing it since. He's got his own way of doing things." When the soundtrack was completed, Mike flew back to Florida to close down his teaching business and pack his things. A month later he moved to the Bay Area and immediately began recording with the DGQ for "Hot Dawg." When Grappelli returned to the Bay Area in October for another Music Hall gig, Mike and David sat in with the band. Tony Rice was conspicuously absent.

AlanN
Mar-27-2007, 3:00pm
Who's the guy on the Ovation? maybe Mark O.?

DSDarr
Mar-27-2007, 3:01pm
Who's the guy on the Ovation?
Looks a bit like Mark O'Connor to me.

-David

Spruce
Mar-27-2007, 3:02pm
John Ethridge me thinks...

Lefty&French
Mar-27-2007, 3:07pm
O'C?

humblemex
Mar-27-2007, 3:29pm
Sorry about that. Bruce is right; it's John Ethridge

SternART
Mar-27-2007, 3:39pm
Yep....John Ethridge, the other guitarist at the time was Diz Dizzley if I'm not mistaken. This is in the pre-Martin Taylor era, for Grappelli's touring band.

Jon....I remember a few things a little different.....it wasn't that Todd wanted to stop playing mandolin, but that there was some friction among the band members about the timing, the rhythm. And this is what led to the change, an attempt to perfect the group sound. Tony wasn't happy with the timing. Todd had been a bass player previously in other bands & they tried it out & the groove was back.

Also, wasn't it the great Eddie Gomez on the Grappelli tracks on Hot Dawg.....I know Buell Neidlinger was also on some tracks. Was Ray Brown involved in the rehersals? I don't remember him being on anything prior to the Back to Back sessions. As I recall Todd was on bass on Dawg's Bull, Bill was on one cut too-Janice, his last appearance on a DGQ recording. Then it was Eddie or Buell on the other tracks.

humblemex
Mar-27-2007, 4:00pm
Yep....John Ethridge, the other guitarist at the time was Diz Dizzley if I'm not mistaken. #This is in the pre-Martin Taylor era, for Grappelli's touring band.

Jon....I remember a few things a little different.....it wasn't that Todd wanted to stop playing mandolin, but that there was some friction among the band members about the timing, the rhythm. #And this is what led to the change, an attempt to perfect the group sound. #Tony wasn't happy with the timing. Todd had been a bass player previously in other bands & they tried it out & the groove was back.

Also, wasn't it the great Eddie Gomez on the Grappelli tracks on Hot Dawg.....I know Buell Neidlinger was also on some tracks. #Was Ray Brown involved in the rehersals? #I don't remember him being on anything prior to the Back to Back sessions. #As I recall Todd was on bass on Dawg's Bull, Bill was on one cut too-Janice, his last appearance on a DGQ recording. Then it was Eddie or Buell on the other tracks.
Arthur,

Yes, Diz Disley was the second guitarist. As for the motivation for Todd moving to bass, I think we both might be right. I know Tony was complaining about the groove but I also found a quote from Dawg in an interview I did while writing a story on Mike for Frets that led me to that conclusion.

"I had been thinking about reorganizing the band in the spring of 1978 when Todd had his identity crisis. Remember when I put the Orchestra gig together with Andy, Richard and Buell?.....When I look back on the history of this band, I see that everything happened at just the right time. Todd wanted to play bass and here was Mike."

Yes, it was Eddie Gomez on "Hot Dawg," but I was talking about the Gypsies soundtrack that Mike was initially called in for. I found out it was Ray Brown on that project from the booklet included with the DGQ-20 collection.

SternART
Mar-27-2007, 4:04pm
Gotchya......I missed that.

humblemex
Mar-27-2007, 9:00pm
Bonus. Just found this in my photo stash. Unfortunately, it's scanned from a print instead of the original transparency so the quality suffers. This is Barkley, immortalized in "Barkley's Bug." Dawg played this tune almost from the start and it finally made it to record on "Quintet '80." David used the image on his 1977 Christmas card.

jefflester
Mar-27-2007, 10:21pm
David used the image on his 1977 Christmas card.
It's even got Christmasy colors with the case lining and the grass.

Edit: err, I guess the green stuff is carpet. :-)

SternART
Mar-28-2007, 12:26am
Yep.....I've named cats after the Mandolin World News mascot cat......immortalized in the tune Barkley's Bug.

I'm currently on Barkley III.

Peter Hackman
Mar-28-2007, 8:35am
Yep.....I've named cats after the Mandolin World News mascot cat......immortalized in the tune Barkley's Bug.

I'm currently on Barkley III.
Norsk skogkatt? Really beautiful.

AlanN
Mar-28-2007, 8:42am
Hey SternART,

Nobody is gonna steal yer mandos with that monsty around!

mandopete
Mar-28-2007, 8:47am
Grrrrrrrrrrrr!

JEStanek
Mar-28-2007, 9:04am
Nice looking cat, Art.

Mar-28-2007, 5:55pm
dawgology is avalible today for free download at grismans site! today i say! tomorrow will be something else.

SternART
Mar-28-2007, 7:19pm
My Barkley III is a pedigree Maine Coon Cat......Huge cats!!! They are really gentle giants though. I have 4 of these monster cats, parents were show cats, I traded art for them, and think I got the best of the deal. Very cool pets! I've had people visit who were afraid of them, they do have a bit of the wild cat look, and most folks aren't used to cats this size. Heads about the size of a grapefruit.

Hey Jon.....I always though the Dawg himself shot that Barkley cat in the case shot, I remember that X-mas card......man you saved everything!!!
And wasn't Mike already around & in the band for a few months by June of '78?.......hard to remember exactly, but I think I recall Todd teaching Mike the mando parts to the tunes in my studio, and in '78, but much earlier in the year. Tough trying to pinpoint some of these dates, the fact that you have dates on some of your film really helps nail down when the performance photos were taken. There are dates on some of the tapes that were made too. But on some stuff I think it is hard to be really specific. You really do have a wonderful chronology of images......keep 'em coming!!!
I'll try & fill in the gaps, add to the discussion, or if I remember something a bit different, I'll possibly correct any mistakes.... if I can.

humblemex
Mar-29-2007, 12:01am
And wasn't Mike already around & in the band for a few months by June of '78?.......hard to remember exactly, but I think I recall Todd teaching Mike the mando parts to the tunes in my studio, and in '78, but much earlier in the year. #Tough trying to pinpoint some of these dates, the fact that you have dates on some of your film really helps nail down when the performance photos were taken. #There are dates on some of the tapes that were made too. #But on some stuff I think it is hard to be really specific. #You really do have a wonderful chronology of images......keep 'em coming!!!
I'll try & fill in the gaps, add to the discussion, or if I remember something a bit different, I'll possibly correct any mistakes.... if I can.
The mind plays tricks with time. Fortunately, I not only have my photo logs but transcripts of interviews with Dawg, Tony, Mike, Darol, and Mark O'Connor ranging from 1977 up into the '80s and a couple in the '90s. I did stories on all of them at one time or another, and I not only have interviews with each about themselves but I would often interview the others about the person I was doing a story on. Both David and Mike pinpoint Mike's arrival as June, 1978. He immediately started jamming with the band because Dawg was incapacitated, so you aren't that far off in your memories. The band was really getting restless without David to rehearse with.

I still don't know what triggered this decision to start looking back and sharing. Actually, I guess it was when I found my cassettes of live recordings from 1977-1983 and decided it was time to transfer them to digital. It's been really fun to pull out those transcripts that are 25-30 years old and read them, not to mention looking at all the contact sheets. I've also discovered tapes of interviews without transcriptions but I really don't have the motivation or time to transcribe. Maybe someday. Life is way too good and sweet down here in beautiful central Mexico, and I'm as busy as I ever was. The biggest drawback is that I really don't have anyone to play with now, That's probably been the biggest surprise since there are maybe 10,000 English-speaking people living here at peak season, not to mention another 70,000 Mexicans Anybody out there who might be contemplating a vacation to San Miguel de Allende? We have a house next door that we rent out on a weekly and monthly basis for the owner who is only here a couple of weeks each year.

In the meantime, I'll keep it coming as long as I get some feedback and know there are people out there listening and willing to contribute whatever they can.

tango_grass
Mar-29-2007, 1:38am
A quick note on the song "Dawgology". Its my personal Dawg favorite, I really wish the DGQ would start playing it, I love the different parts and the fact that the solos and part of the melody are in 9/8 time, #really has a cool Flamenco sort of sound.

Mark in Nevada City
Mar-29-2007, 5:44am
Hey Wayne.....I first saw Joe Craven jamming mandolin at the Grass Valley festival several years before he met David.
He was in a Django/Swing type jam & just tearing it up......I even went & woke up my friends to hear him, I knew he
had it & wasn't surprised at all when he made it into the DGQ. Joe is incredibly musical, it just oozes out of him.
And so versatile...... need twin mando....need a fiddle solo.....rhythm ace.....comic relief, Joe was a cool addition & he was
jammin' at that festival with Rick Montgomery who also joined the band with Joe in a package deal.

Joining this thread a little late. Facinating to hear all this from you guys who were there in the beginning. I have a bit of history with some of the players, but starting in the mid to late 80's when I was in college at Davis, Joe Craven's old stomping grounds. (Wayne, when were you there?)

Joe hosted an a weekly open mic and would sit in with me and some other pickers, in fact that's when I met Rick Montgomery (he wanted to know if I'd consider selling my '54 D-18 Martin--no way! ). Shortly after that I met dobro player Rob Ickes and was playing in some of the same circles. I was a young bluegrass mando player with experimental tendencies, and to find these musicians and the acoustic music scene in the mist of the '80's pop rock that most of my peers were listing to, was heaven come to earth.

I first saw Joe with David in, I think, 1988 (maybe '89? ) at the Strawberry music festival. They did a workshop with Mark O'Connor and Sam Bush and Joe played his fiddle case. From his reaction, it was obvious that that was the first time Sam had seen this. This might have been the last year of New Grass Revival cause I remember one year seeing NGR at Strawberry, then the next Strength in Numbers.

The great musician that Joe Craven is, I've always had a lot of respect for him. One vivid memory I have of Joe from my days in Davis (remember I was in college, and sometimes I couldn't remember something that happened a week later let alone 20 years later) was showing him my "new" mandolin. This would have been '89/early '90 and we were at a party with lots of music and I had just gotten my (then) minty 1917 F4. I didn't want to seem too eager, and one of my buddies said, "Joe you need to check out Mark's new mando." On first inspection Joe said, "it looks playable." ...I was crushed! Then he played a tune with it, then another, then another. When he handed it back he said, "that's a REALLY nice mandolin." Whew, all's right in the world.

Anyway, I'm still active in the music scene, but just a festival parking lot picker with an occasional stint with the family band or other temporary engagements. I see Joe and Rob Ickes every once in a while, usually just to say "hi," and "remember when..." These guys have gone on to do wonderful things with their music and sometimes I lament not following the path of a pro musician, but my priorities now lie elsewhere and I know those experiences will stay with me a lifetime.

Lots of other memories, like seeing Joe with Grisman & Garcia play a "talking drum solo" or taking a break on a yellow rubber ducky with DGQ, but...enought for now.

cheers, mmm

AlanN
Mar-29-2007, 5:56am
Nice recollections.

Jon, I, for one, relish your stories. I was Dawg bit big-time and very much enjoy the first-hand accounts on all of them guys. Grisman and all have done remarkable things in the music world. And I finally met him a few weeks ago (and played the Eddie Giacomin mandolin!)

SternART
Mar-29-2007, 10:44am
Corrado Giacomel mandolin!

SternART
Mar-29-2007, 10:58am
Press Release:
DAVID GRISMAN QUINTET ANNOUNCES ADDITION OF PREMIER ACOUSTIC JAZZ GUITARIST FRANK VIGNOLA

San Rafael, CA March 27, 2007 – The David Grisman Quintet, acoustic music’s most celebrated ensemble has a new guitar player – Frank Vignola.
Frank Vignola is considered by many to be among the top ranked guitarists on the music scene today, having recorded and or performed with an amazing variety of notables from Chet Atkins, to Madonna, Woody Allen, Ringo Starr, Manhattan Transfer, Mark O’Connor – to name a few.
The David Grisman Quintet has had quite the roster of stellar guitar personnel throughout it’s illustrious 30 year career including Tony Rice, Mark O’Connor, Mike Marshall, John Carlini and most recently, Enrique Coria. Frank Vignola will have no problem filling the shoes of any of his predecessors and we can all look forward to the next chapter in the enduring legacy of the David Grisman Quintet.

To quote the “Dawg” himself
“I've been happy to call Frank Vignola my friend for some time now, and even happier to announce his membership in the current quintet. Frank is one of the all-time great rhythm men and we all look forward to grooving with him.”

wah
Mar-29-2007, 12:41pm
Mark,

I've lived in the Davis area since 1977 when I moved to Winters from the Bay Area. I had three small kids and spent most of my time working and doing family stuff but I got out every now and then. But I only got to see some of this stuff from the outside.

Wayne

humblemex
Apr-01-2007, 11:34pm
At the time of the October gig with Stephan, the reorganized DGQ was in the studio hard at work on "Hot Dawg." David's injury was almost healed, primarily through the magic of acupuncture. The last session in the Bay Area was in mid-December, and the band played its first shows with Mike on Dec. 30 and Dec. 31, 1978 at the Great American Music Hall. With Mike around, the mandocello again became a part of the show and Todd's groove was making everyone happy.

humblemex
Apr-01-2007, 11:48pm
That was the New Year's Eve that I ditched the Dead closing Winterland in favor of the DGQ. I wasn't the only Deadhead to do that.

L-R: Todd Phillips, Arthur Stern, Mike Marshall

mandopete
Apr-02-2007, 8:50am
...almost 30 years ago!

SternART
Apr-03-2007, 11:48pm
Hey I remember that coat! I dressed up for NYE. In my art school days I used to shop at the Atelier de Salvation Army.
"Pop" Phillips & I both had way more hair in those days too. The DGQ were hip & happnin' with this lineup.....my personal
favorite, this band really found the groove. Tony was happy with the changes, Mike was jazzed learning tunes like a sponge....
Darol was dialing in his intonation, and finding his mature voice....and also forging a musical bond/ friendship with Mike, they even
lived just a few houses apart & were always pickin together. Todd was very comfortable holding down the bottom.....and
Dawggy was like a man on a mission....what a cool band...the music in this era was alive with anticipation & excitement at the gigs.....
anything seemed possible. Cool photos Jon! I can't even remember if the Dead did a run of shows and maybe I caught an earlier one,
by then I was fully converted to a Dawghead. That was over half my life ago. Weird thinking of it like that......

tango_grass
Apr-04-2007, 1:12am
Are there any live recordings of that group? '77-'79?

humblemex
Apr-04-2007, 10:37am
Are there any live recordings of that group? '77-'79?
There are several floating around though I don't know if any are posted anywhere

SternART
Apr-04-2007, 1:26pm
Two cuts from that era are on DGQ 20. If you get the box set, you can read this continuing thread and listen along.

jasona
Apr-04-2007, 2:20pm
Looking at Todd and Mike I wonder whether the "Kenora dinner jacket" was the official garb of the DGQ. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

humblemex
Apr-04-2007, 2:23pm
Two cuts from that era are on DGQ 20. #If you get the box set, you can read this continuing thread and listen along.
My mistake. I thought he was referring to '77-'79 band with Bill on bass. I don't know of any live tapes with Todd on bass. Thanks for directing me to the DGQ-20 set. It's a must-have for all Dawg music lovers.

jmcgann
Apr-04-2007, 3:31pm
Don Hoos of Evanston Il. was a big archiver of live shows back in the cassette days (and may still be for all I know). I am pretty sure there were '77 (and earlier and later) DGQ shows on his list. Somewhere I have a few cassettes...I remember one with Andy Statman sitting in; a pre-DGQ set with Bill Keith and Richard Greene from Tokyo radio plus a European show. I'd imagine tapes from the first couple of DGQ tours do exist...

AlanN
Apr-04-2007, 5:37pm
Two cuts from that era are on DGQ 20. #
A DGQ 30 is a viable entity now....oh my!