Selling in the classified's

[Kevin Briggs]

Hi, folks. I have a few questions about selling in the classifieds. This is not my attempt at extra advertising.

I must admit, I get a little nervous about buying and selling things this way, mostly because I'm not aware of the accountability system in place. I know Scott has an accountability system. I just don't know what it is.

Are certified checks and money orders fool/scam proof payments? Is it fair to ask the buyer to wait until the check clears?

Thanks,
Kevin

[Yellowmandolin]

I think certified checks and money orders are a great way to go. I just keeps the ambiguity of personal checks out of it. I think is is fair, and not offensive, to wait for a check to clear. One thing that seems to calm my nerves when dealing on the classified's is a phone call. If I can talk to somebody, I feel that I can get a better sense of who this person is. Plus, its actually kind of nice to talk to a fellow mando-adict every once in a while even if the deal does not work out!

[Mark Walker]

I can't answer to your specific payment options; I bought two different mandolin cases out of the Classifieds, and paid for each using PayPal. #
Both transactions went flawlessly.

Beyond that, I tend to believe the VAST majority of people associated with this fine website have standards far above and beyond many of the 'scam-types' found on - say - eBay. #That being said, I'd suggest nearly every transaction via Mandolin Cafe's Classifieds would be conducted with the highest integrity by all parties. #In other words, I'd wager whatever method of payment was arranged would result in an amicable transaction for both buyer and seller.

JMHO, YMMV.

[mandoman4807]

Is it fair to ask the buyer to wait until the check clears?

Thanks,
Kevin



If it`s a personal check I #most certainly would! I always thought a bank certified check was a sure thing, but I have heard that fakes are easy to print as well. I have not had a problem with any one there on the cafe even with personal checks. For the most part, the mando community is a trustworthy bunch, at least in my dealings.


Darrell

[DryBones]

PayPal and USPS money orders are the only way I like to deal with big ticket items. Buying or selling. I'll take a check for something small until I get burned.

[Leftyman]

Iam a big fan of Paypal it opens up the world and makes buying globally safe and easy.
Anyone not accepting paypal,and asking for money orders gets my goat, cause I know whats coming down. Its usually followed by will only post to the lower 48 states.Which is exclusive and certainly not guaranteed to make me feel warm and fuzzy all over.

[glauber]

Paypal, and if you're really nervous, use escrow.

[bluegrasssboy]

I use National City Bank and I know from first hand experience that they will put a 3-5-7 day hold on cashier's checks when you deposit them, depending on the amount.

[Kevin Briggs]

National City? You in Pennsylvania?

[mythicfish]

All of my dealings through these classifieds have been satisfactory.
That said, there are no guarantees and "accountability" lies with the individual - whether buyer or seller.
The site owner is not our "daddy" . He is merely a conduit of information.
If you feel uncomfortable buying and selling online, I suggest that you transact business in some other fashion.

Curt

[Stephen Perry]

Some of the fake cashier's checks are really funny, some are quite nice. I collect them. Have a file. Send donations!

Personal checks with verification are good. PayPal is good. Just make sure you can for sure reach the other party.

[stevem]

Paypal works great. You just log-in and can see that the money is indeed there. You do have to be aware of 1)scams, 2)fees and 3)withdrawal delays.

Every time I buy something on ebay I get an email or two from scammers telling me my Paypal account has been compromised. They request my log-in info to fix the problem. Of course, they just want to take over the account and help themselves to my cash.

I'm not entirely sure how Paypal fees work. I sold a mando a few weeks ago for a little under $2k and they siphoned off 3.9%. But, I just got verified (by tying my bank account to my Paypal account). I'm hoping the fees will go down, but I'm not sure.

Also, if you are not verified, you can only withdraw $500 a month. If verified, you can transfer any amount straight into your bank account with just a 2-3 day lag.

[Brad Weiss]

I've sold with PayPal, not crazy about the fees, but for a big ticket, the small price is (generally) worth it for the security. #I certainly love to PAY with PayPal! On the cafe, I've sold and received personal checks, too - for small amounts, I don't even wait til they clear. I like the idea of trusting the folks obsessed with trolling the classifieds, like I am, and so I indulge that trust by sending the item when I get the check. #So far, no complaints - but I don't know that I'd be so generous for more than 1k.

[arbarnhart]

PayPal! Some very small percentage of people have had trouble with PayPal and have a legitimate gripe, but the vast majority of people who refuse to use it are scammers.

[Noteplayer]

I experienced a security breach at PayPal back in the fall & won't use them again. But money orders & cashiers checks always work great.

Bob

[stevem]

Any idea how the security breach happened, Bob? Any suggestions on keeping it safe?

[arbarnhart]

I had a security breach. One of our computers had a keystroke stealing virus. It was on one my kids use for games and I usually don't use it but I needed to print a label and for some reason the shared printer wasn't working from my computer. So I logged into eBay on that computer and to print the label I also went through PayPal to buy postage. I finished taping up the package and took care of a couple of other details and then went back over to my computer and went back into My eBay to send a note to the buyer to let him know it was going out. It caught my eye that I had new sales going on. It was cell phones with a BIN on one day auctions and the PayPal address was set to something different than mine. I started cancelling auctions and changed my password using the challenge phrase. I changed it on PayPal as well. I reported it. I got a call from eBay and they took off all auction charges. There had been no activity in my PayPal account. Anyway, the way breaches occur is that you give your passwrod up, either by some keystroke logging spyware (like what happened to me) or by getting fooled into thinking you are logging in there when you are really somewhere else.

[Noteplayer]

No idea how the breach happened. #The strange thing was when I notified PayPal, they didn't even respond to my e-mail that included the breachers e-mail address. #I thought it best at that point to close my PayPal acct especially since they never answered.
I buy with money orders now & have never had an issue...just takes longer sometimes but I have had some sellers ship before they get their money so there are some good folks still out there. #The idea of calling the buyer/seller first is a good one since you can usually sense through conversation if someone is legit.

Bob

[arbarnhart]

Not trying to beat a dead horse, but for the sake of others that might find themselves in that situation, it is true that PayPal is slow to respond to email, if they ever respond. That's because so much of their email is faked; it's attempts to disrupt transactions or change account settings by outsiders. What they do respond to is their internal dispute resolution process. You have to log in, go to the specific transation and dispute it. It's pretty clearly spelled out in the user agreement.

[grandmainger]

I am an adept PayPal user, both in terms on buying and selling. So far, I have had no problems with it. The fees are high, but the convenience of being able to receive/send payment pretty much worldwide is worth it I think.

HOWEVER. Do not get fooled into thinking that paypal is bullet-proof, especially for large payments. Anyone accepting PayPal payments should be aware of what PayPal calls ChargeBacks ( https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin....outside (https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=xpt/seller/ChargebackRisk-outside)).

Don't let it scare you, but make sure you are aware of it. It's easy to get lured into a false sense of security, then get charged back weeks after a deal.
There is a nice guide to it here: http://www.auctionbytes.com/cab/abu/y203/m10/abu0105/s02

I use PayPal all the time, here and on eBay, and never had a problem, but if there is a lot of money changing hands, I always try to assess the reliability of my buyer. Better safe than sorry.

Germain

[Stephen Perry]

Yes, chargebacks put at least 2 companies I know of out of business. One ended up with $40,000 pulled from their account. All across national borders.

Within US borders, if the chargeback resolution process doesn't work for you the usual legal remedies apply. If you have a suitable clause in the sales contract, you may simply be able to turn the matter over to a collection firm. That a chargeback works against you doesn't necessarily eliminate other recourse. Have to be able to find the culprit, of course!

[Avi Ziv]

One interesting thing I found out about personal checks. I use Commerce bank. Last time I sold something, I received a personal check and took it to the bank. I asked them when it would clear. They told me that "funds would be available" after x days. I asked again "when would you know the check is good and covered?". They said "we don't. In theory it can bounce back from the issuing bank much later than the x days that we quote". I asked "Is there a way for me to tell when it has been *absolutely* cleared by the issuing bank?" They said "no".

I don't know if this is the same for any bank but I was surprised. Maybe that's normal, but I would keep that in mind if we are talking about a large sum of money.

Avi

[Stephen Perry]

That's a less-common scam, too. Used to be that big companies (as an example) honored fake checks pretty regularly - until an audit caught them. The nice thing about a personal check is that it has a signature. If you have a check with a signature, a signed delivery slip of some kind with the same signature, and a person associated with both, then you can probably do something. Diligence ahead of time!

One of the many reasons why people walking in with wads of small bills are so welcome in the retail trade.

[arbarnhart]

A lot of sellers require PayPal and will ship only to a verified US street address. That does not guarantee that you won't get a charge back, but it reduces the odds considerably and makes it likely that some avenue of recourse is available to you. You may drive away a small percentage of legitimate buyers in the process, but you will also drive away the vast majority of scammers.

I know someone that opened a new bank account and got a new credit card with a low limit specifically for PayPal. He may still be liable for charge backs, but he's not leaving a big pile of cash for them to take without discussion.

Yes, checks can take a very long time to come back and if they do you owe the amount plus penalties immediately.

[nilodnam]

I noticed that you said "I know Scott has an accountability system. I just don't know what it is."

Scott is diligent about blocking scammers when possible, but to my knowledge there is no formal "accountability system" and you can't expect Scott to have any responsibility at all for the security of your transaction.

I have done a number of transactions, and what I think works best is to call the other party and agree to share your home and work phone numbers, and ship payments/mando's to a place of business. That way you can make sure the business exists, and it is unlikely that someone would want to ship to a place that they did not work.

Good luck. All of my experiences have been good.

Jim

[cutbait2]

all my experiences, buying and selling, here have been straight up. that said when selling i did have some guys back out with buyers 24 hr remorse and even once return a mandolin. that's part of the process. i never bought one i didn't keep a while though some were ultimately disappointing. after a couple, three years i found mandolin satisfaction. i do not and will not use paypal.

[arbarnhart]

I figured out a decent analogy, thought the "information highway" metaphor is getting a bit trite...

There is no regulatory agency, but PayPal provides something akin to a license plate. You get to drive with relative anonymity, but if something goes awry, another party can use your tag through the appropriate authority to get things corrected. It make me nervous when the other partner won't divulge the info to a third party.