How long to open up?

[Jonathan Peck]

Taking into consideration that different top woods may open at different rates. How long do you think it takes for a mandolin to completely open up and mature with average daily play? When is the sound of an instrument going to stop changing to the point of where you know exactly what you've got?

I've recently played several instruments for comparison and found them to be:

1918 Gibson A - Completely opened up
1978 Monteleone F-5 - Completely opened up
1992 Flatiron F-5 Artist - Completely opened up
1999 Dearstone F5M - Open, but not completely
2005 Mowry F-5 - Just starting to open

[Eric F.]

My question is: How do you know?

[ipmala888]

How do you define the term 'opened-up' ?? Maybe some of the
'pros' out there could help educate me and some of the other
"newbees" here. For example, I have an absolute killer MM
that's only one year old. It's 'huge' all the way across--
bottom end, mids, highs. I play the sh*t out of it daily--
especially pounding hard on the bottom end D & G strings.
It seems to be getting even louder, with even more sustain.
When it 'opens up' is this what typically happens--ie. it
gets louder, more sustain ?? Acoustically, what happens to
a new mandolin when it opens up http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif And, how much playing
time is required ?? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Jonathan Peck]

"My question is: How do you know?"

Subjective personal opinion....or in short, in my limited experience I don't really know. Some changes may be drastic and others subtle. It would be interesting to compile a list of what these are.

[mythicfish]

Chicken - 185º
Beef, med rare - 145º/150º
Pork - 160º
Everything else is in the seasoning.

Curt

[Jonathan Peck]

Here's a sound clip of the Dearstone played by Michael Daves from his lesson page. This was recorded about a year ago. She's about 7+1/2 years old now. I've had her around six months and I still can't make it sound like that.

http://www.michaeldaves.com/lessons/sound/Bluegrass%20Breakdown.mp3

[mythicfish]

How long have you been playing mandolin - i.e. in general, not this particular mandolin?

Curt

[Jonathan Peck]

Hey Curt,

Let me start by saying the guy playing the mandolin in that clip is my teacher. I only wish I could play like that, but I keep working at it and I enjoy playing. He gave me a good price on the mandolin and he used the money to buy a mixing board. We're both happy with the deal.

I started playing mando last summer. I play mando most of the time and hardly ever bring my guitar to jams anymore. The transition was pretty quick and once the mando bug bit, there was no turning back. Technically, I find the mando is very similar to the guitar, and it only took a few weeks to get used to the tuning which I find makes so much more sense than the way a guitar is tuned.

BTW - Michael will be on the Ellen Degenerest show with Tony Trischka and Steve Martin. I think the show they're on airs tomorrow. Michael plays guitar on a track on Tony's new double banjo album and he's been traveling with Tony playing gigs and doing the talk show circuit. I think that they were on Letterman last week, but I missed it.

http://www.tonytrischka.com/

[sunburst]

...Maybe some of the 'pros' out there could help educate me and some of the other "newbees" here...
Not a 'pro' player, just a 'pro' luthier, here. Hopefully, that doesn't make my opinion any less valid than any other, but it is just that, my opinion, because there isn't really any scientific evidence to back up claims of instruments 'opening up" or not.

I think the whole 'opening up' thing is way overblown. While I do believe there are changes in the sound of a mandolin as it ages, and as it is played, what you get with a new mandolin is pretty much what you are going to have.
A new mandolin, freshly strung up, usually sounds weak, thin and just not very good. Give it a few hours and it sounds like a good mandolin. Give it a few days, and it sounds like a better mandolin. Give it a few weeks, and you pretty much know what it will be. A few years later, you might hear some further maturing of the sound, especially depth of tone, but you can still recognize it as the same mandolin that it was when it was a week old.
You can expect no orders of magnitude changes in sound with years of playing, only subtle changes if any at all. Frankly, however, the subtleties are often what separates a great mandolin from a good mandolin.

[fatt-dad]

Perfect reply, John! This should be required reading on the matter of "opening up".

f-d

[Five]

John is that not what opening up is?

[sgarrity]

What John said!

[Jerry Byers]

John's response is valid if you only considered the strings. As the wood settles or dries out, I would expect a different response.

[bradeinhorn]

my opinion has always been that first year or two will give you 95 percent of "opening up".

[Jerry Byers]

I only mention the wood because 90 years have certainly helped the Loars to open up.

[wayfaringstranger]

My theory: over time, instruments don't really open up. We do.

What if "opening up" had less to do with any actual changes in the instrument, and more to do with the player opening up to the tonal possibilities presented by said instrument? Each one seems to play a little differently, and I suspect that the improvement in tone that I always hear after playing a new instrument for a while has more to do with me subconsciously figuring out how to get the best tone that I can out of the instrument. The more I play around on an instrument, the better I can make it sound.

Just a thought.

[johnnymando]

I bought a "preowned" Sam Bush 3yrs ago. It was basicly unplayed and in new cond.
I allmost sent it back...just didn't knock me over. But, I bought it right and figured I could resell and do ok if I decided to sell.
I began to play it hard and after about 6months or so noticed it was really sounding good( my mando buddies initiated the comments). Maybe it was that I was used to the instrument, but, I really hear a difference from when I first got it.
Real glad I didn't send it back.

[Jonathan Peck]

John's response is valid if you only considered the strings. As the wood settles or dries out, I would expect a different response.
This is exactly what struck me most after playing the 15 yr. old Flatiron and the 29 yr. old Monteleone. They were just so much more responsive to the touch.

**edit** I should add that all of the mandolins in my list, while owned by different people, were all set up by the same luthier**

[Jerry Byers]

My Altman takes time, about 30 minutes, to open up every day that I play. I don't really think it's me that takes time to open up regarding this.

[pickinNgrinnin]

Charlie Derrington (R.I.P.) used to say that a Tone Bar braced Mandolin could take up to 4 years to fully open.

Charlie did know a few things about Mandos.

[Walter Newton]

This is exactly what struck me most after playing the 15 yr. old Flatiron and the 29 yr. old Monteleone. They were just so much more responsive to the touch.
How do you know they haven't been that responsive since they were new though (or nearly new, say after a relatively short "opening up" period as suggested above)?

[Jonathan Peck]

That is possible, there are certainly many variables to consider. Walter, what is your opinion?

[sgarrity]

I'm going to quote scientific stuff and I know thats gonna get me in trouble, 'cuz I dunno nuthin 'bout no science. But the human ear/brain can only remember specific sounds/tones for a very short period of time. (The exact period I'm forgetting but I wanna say it's no more than a minute.) So when people say, "It really opened up after a year. It sounds so much better now." Can you really remember what it sounded like that long ago?

We've had these "opening up" threads on the 'cafe for years. My take is if it doesn't sound reasonably good now, it probably never will. And if it does take 4 years for it to "open up" I ain't waitin' that long. There a re plenty of mandos out there that sound durn fine right outta the box.

Shaun

[sunburst]

John's response is valid if you only considered the strings. As the wood settles or dries out, I would expect a different response.
I'm not talking about the strings at all. An old mandolin with new strings sounds like, well, an old mandolin with new strings. That's not the sound of a brand new mandolin.

Wood of the thicknesses found in mandolins will be dry in a few weeks, in good drying conditions. After that, it is in equilibrium with it's surroundings. It does not continue to dry. It will gain and loose moisture in response to the relative humidity it is exposed to.
There are some changes, physical and chemical, that happen in wood over time, but they are not drying.

How do you know if a Loar has opened up in it's 90 years? The Loars I've played and heard are good to great mandolins, for the most part, but there are many newer mandolins that I think are just as good, and some that are better than most of the Loars I've observed.
I believe those Loars sounded pretty close to how they sound now when they were 3 weeks old.

As for 'waking up" with 15 to 30 minutes of playing, that I've observed, especially in newer instruments.

[mythicfish]

It takes time to develop the "manual skills" to produce the sound that your ear wants to hear.
This does not usually happen in the short time you've been playing.

Curt

[Jerry Byers]

A new mandolin, freshly strung up, usually sounds weak, thin and just not very good. Give it a few hours and it sounds like a good mandolin. Give it a few days, and it sounds like a better mandolin. Give it a few weeks, and you pretty much know what it will be.
Actually, you started out talking about strings. And I would expect the mandolin to sound differently as the strings settled in.

As for the moisture content, I agree with you. However, I don't think today's Loars sounded like that when they were 3 weeks old. Most of them have red spruce tops. Unless the characteristics of red spruce has changed over those last 90 years, I would expect that Loars have gone through an opening up period just like any red spruce mandolin would do today.

The other variable to consider is the finish. As this has been discussed in other threads, I agree that time has a way of affecting the finish which in turn affects the tone and volume. Nitro/lacquer thins away over the years; certainly this contributes to opening up. The same could be said of varnishes.

[Jonathan Peck]

It takes time to develop the "manual skills" to produce the sound that your ear wants to hear.
This does not usually happen in the short time you've been playing.

Curt
Yes, the right hand. 2007 is going to be the year of developing the right hand for me. I've gotten to the point where I play cleanly and fluidly with good alternate picking. Now it's time to get nasty and play from my gut instead of my head http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[MikeB]

This is not meant as a hijack...in fact, I hope it's the same subject. Does anyone agree that a good quality old intrument sounds different (I am loathe to say 'better') than a good quality new one? I know nothing about what 'opening up' means to each person, but I've played enough old instruments to think I can hear something very different and, to my ear, very special in those oldies. Whatever that quality is, I don't believe you can often buy, in a new instrument, what 90 years, or so, has put into an old one.

I know this adds nothing to our knowledge about sound. JMO.... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[sunburst]

Jerry, I had this mandolin back in the shop a few days ago. It was built in 2003, the top is red spruce, the back is hard maple, and it's on it's third set of frets in three years.

It might sound a little different than it did when it was 3 weeks old, but I couldn't say for sure. I'm only relying on memory. I'll bet, if it makes it to 90 years old, it'll sound pretty close to the way it sounds now.

[sunburst]

Lot's of playing time on this one.

[Jerry Byers]

I haven't bought off on the whole Loar thing yet; I'm still absorbing all the knowledge that I can. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

What is the finish on that mandolin?

[Walter Newton]

That is possible, there are certainly many variables to consider. Walter, what is your opinion?
Well since you asked...I do believe I've heard the tone of brand new mandolins improve after being played for some time - say on the order of months. However, I've also played certain mandolins that were a month old that sounded much more open and responsive than other mandolins with years of playing on them.

Beyond that I would hesitate to venture a guess, as you said there are so many variables. I know I couldn't reliably compare the sound of one of my mandolins today with my memory of it from years ago...even if I could factor out differences due to changes in my ability, strings, picks, setup etc. (which of course I can't, and are very important differences in themselves).

I do think it's a very interesting subject and would love to see some non-anecdotal, more scientific study of whatever changes may occur to an instrument's sound over the years.

[sunburst]

The finish is nitrocellulose lacquer, what's left of it. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Actually, the mandolin is not abused, just used. Honest wear, and the dings and nicks of the road.

[Jerry Byers]

What is the typical thickness when you use nitrocellulose lacquer? Is there a rule of thumb on how long it takes to thin?

I've seen some mandolins that would be nice if the lacquer wasn't so thick.

[Lane Pryce]

Jerry, I had this mandolin back in the shop a few days ago. It was built in 2003, the top is red spruce, the back is hard maple, and it's on it's third set of frets in three years.
Wow ---- 3rd set of frets in 3 years. I can't imagine anyone having that much time to play. John there is no doubt about where the sweet spot is on that F5. I'd love to have one just like it. Lp

[Jerry Byers]

The sweet spot or the F5? I'll take one of each.

[mythicfish]

" Yes, the right hand. 2007 is going to be the year of developing the right hand for me."

And - hopefully -every year thereafter. But it really takes two hands. If the left hand is "late" when the pick has "arrived"
the result is mookery.

Curt

[sunburst]

Jerry, I don't have equipment to measure film thickness of finishes, but I do have many years of spray gun and sanding experience (I finished every instrument for a manufacturer for 6 long years), and I keep it as thin as I can.

Here's a quote from my web site:

Finishes are best kept thin, but they need to be thick enough to protect the instrument. A thin varnish doesn't sound much different than a thin lacquer finish, and generally doesn't protect as well. It's also much more time consuming to apply varnish than lacquer, and therefore, more expensive. It's more difficult to get a good, smooth surface. Varnish can mean many different things, so there is no reliable conclusion to be drawn about instrument characteristics from the knowledge that an instrument is finished in varnish.

I feel that the current "fad" for varnish-finished mandolins is partly a result of marketing by some companies who have a vested interest in convincing the buyer that varnish is superior in tone production, when, in fact, a thin, well applied finish of any kind has very little affect on the sound or tone of an instrument compared to other variables. I use lacquer and varnish finishes, but I make no claim of tone superiority, or even tone difference between the finishes that I use.

[mythicfish]

" Now it's time to get nasty and play from my gut instead of my head "

Was it Joe Pass (or Tal Farlow) who said " It's not that hard to PLAY fast, it's harder to THINK fast"

Curt

[Flowerpot]

Hey, I remember that mandolin when it was new. (If it's the one I think it is -- ) Wish I could hear it now, and see if I detected a difference. Looks like it has a happy home!

[Jerry Byers]

Varnish vs. lacquer...I think there has been one or two threads on that topic. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[cgwilsonjr]

I can only speak from personal experience: I bought my 2000 Collings D1-A (guitar) and 2002 Collings MT-2 in new and "as new" condition. They both sounded very good out of the box. Over five years of serious playing they bloomed dramatically into awesome instruments. I believe the instruments have clearly matured/developed/opened-up and it is not just a case of my perception of the instruments. I can't prove it and I could be wrong but I think "opening-up" is a process that really happens over time. I do agree with earlier sentiments however that the fundamental character of the tone is present in the instrument very early on. Chuck

[wayfaringstranger]

I bet the guy who owns that mandolin of John's is a heck of a player. You put that kind of wear on an instrument, seems like you'd have no choice but to get really good. Unless maybe you have forearms made of sandpaper http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I still don't buy the idea that the instrument changes that much over time, beyond a few weeks or months after it gets its first set of strings.

Let's say that I buy a new instrument and play it hard for several years. I notice that it's really sounding good. Is it the instrument that has developed? Or is it that several years of hard playing has improved my playing ability? Or perhaps my knowledge of the capabilities of that particular instrument is much deeper as a result of playing it for several years? I'm willing to bet that the human brain is more flexible over time than a hunk of polished, carved wood.

Anyway, here's a story which proves nothing but is still kind of interesting to think about:

About a month ago, I bought a mandolin from a friend of mine; it's much nicer (and, sadly, pricier) than any mandolin I've owned previously. He wasn't the original owner, but he'd played the tar out of it, and I remembered loving the tone when I'd last had a chance to play it several months ago. So I bought it.

The instrument in question is a 9-10 years old, varnished, cross-braced, englemann-topped mandolin. If you read and believe the various threads on "opening up" here and on co-mando, the various bits of anecdotal evidence you'll see there would suggest that all of these factors (age, finish, bracing, wood choice) pretty much add up to a mandolin that's already well broken-in. So, based on other people's observations, whatever I heard when I pulled it out of the case the first time ought to be pretty much all I'm ever going to hear.

After I got it home, I was a little underwhelmed by its sound at first, especially in direct comparisons with friends' mandolins that I'd played previously and knew I liked. At this point, I really *wanted* to believe in the idea of opening up, despite my skepticism.

Oddly, after playing the heck out of it for a month or so, it sounds much better (I'm talking orders of magnitude better - I'm totally smitten with it) to my ear, even when compared to the same set of mandolins as before. I can't explain why this would happen (maybe I prefer the sound of 3-week-old strings?). But I do think that it's highly unlikely that the instrument changed.

To me, it's more likely that it's *me* that changed. Either three weeks of hard playing tightened up my playing, or I adapted to the sound of the mandolin (i.e. my own ideas about what sounds good have changed), or I figured out how to draw a better tone out of this particular instrument.

Makes me think, anyway.

If there's a moral to this story, it's "play your mandolin," which is a moral that I think we can all live with. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[don richards]

I just wanna' throw in my .02 - I once (about 10+) years ago..,bought a FLATIRON F5 to the tune of $3000+ - from the FLATIRON catalog.. - the day it arrived I wnt to the/my local music store and anxiously unpacked it! - I tuned it up..- it said "Thunk"!!## - I took it home.. - It still went 'thunk".. my bluegrass buddies said ..'keep play'n it.., put it near your stereo.., play it HARD..!! - I did ALL these things - still went "THUNK### - I kept the thing for 2 years - called Paula at FLATIRON.. she said "...what's wrong with it.., send it back.., we'll fix it.." I said "..I can't explain it but it AIN"T right - FOR $3000!!! # - I finally SOLD the thing for $1500... still went "THUNKKKKKK" - 'nough said!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif? - I just bought a PRICETONE - took it outta' the box from Mr. PRICE - it went W-O-O-F and the sound bounced off my living room wall(s)..... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif 'nough said - of course.., your milage may very - Good luck... Moose - the happy - but wiser - camper... #

[sunburst]

I bet the guy who owns that mandolin of John's is a heck of a player. You put that kind of wear on an instrument, seems like you'd have no choice but to get really good. Unless maybe you have forearms made of sandpaper http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
The guy who owns that mandolin is Andy Thacker. He is a great player, but he was already a great player when he got that mandolin. (He and that mando can be heard in the "Fair Weather Bums" sound clip on my web site.)
To give you an idea of how he plays, even after wearing out two sets of frets, there is almost no wear on the fingerboard at all.

I think you're right about part of the "opening up" process being the player.
I think we hear a mandolin for the first time with some amount preconceived notions of what it will sound like, and if it doesn't sound like that, it takes us a while to hear it for what it is rather than what we subconsciously thought it would be.
I also thing the player will learn to "get the tone" with some playing time.

By the way, there have been a few studies done with violins to test for sound changes over time. IIRC, there is some indication that there is some change.

[wayfaringstranger]

The guy who owns that mandolin is Andy Thacker. He is a great player, but he was already a great player when he got that mandolin. (He and that mando can be heard in the "Fair Weather Bums" sound clip on my web site.)
Wow. No kidding; he's a great player.

By the way: that's a very nice site you have there. Love the videos of Danny Kniceley. That guy is scary good.

Not to hijack the thread, but that reminds me:

Danny is putting on a CD release concert this weekend in Hillsboro, VA this saturday (2/10/07). Looks like a great lineup, too.

37098 Charlestown Pike, Hillsboro, VA. Doors open at 8:00 pm. I think admission is $15, which includes a copy of the CD.

[jasona]

John: slip a fingerrest on there and see if he notices it. Then see how long it takes for him to wear a hole through it! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[ipmala888]

Well, Big Joe has told me that..."they either BARK or they
don't". If they don't BARK when they're brand new, they
won't BARK (80) years later--ie. just like many of the Loars
also don't BARK. Now, my new MM which is only 1 year old--
really, really 'barks'. I've also played it in real hard--
especially on the bottom end--and it seems to be improving
each day and getting a lot 'sweeter' sounding. I guess then
that means its 'opening up' ??

[mythicfish]

Well, Big Joe has told me that..."they either BARK or they dont"

So I bought a dog and named him Gibson. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[don richards]

Yup! my statement/post (see above) is now officially "valadated" by those ...in "authority" - Thanks JOE!! - 'course I knew I was right all along.. hee... hee.. kindaa' like be'in pregnant - either ya' are..or ya' AIN'T... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Five]

I agree that a new mandolin mus t have a bark. But I believe one that barks will develop into a growl. There are many reasons for a mandolin changing in tone. The finish releasing solvents and becomes harder is just one. I know after forty years of acoustic instrument buying,selling and repairing that an instrument must have something going for it new, if it is played often by a good player, and it ages, these instruments for what ever reason seem to be the better sounding ones. If new instruments had the magic right out of the box we would not all be looking for old Gibsons. Why do you think that the top players use an older instrument. Do not buy a mandolin that seems to have the tone coming mainly off the strings. It has problems that time will not cure. The top and back are more that likly to thick. I also believe a mandolin that is very hollow sounding will bedome indistinct between the notes (mushy) as it ages. Mandolin are more like violins than any other steel string instrument I know of. They have proven that violins change with age and I believe that this holds true for our instrument. Just my two cents worth.

Reggie

[Jonathan Peck]

Oddly, after playing the heck out of it for a month or so, it sounds much better (I'm talking orders of magnitude better - I'm totally smitten with it) to my ear, even when compared to the same set of mandolins as before. I can't explain why this would happen (maybe I prefer the sound of 3-week-old strings?). But I do think that it's highly unlikely that the instrument changed.
Just my opinion and this may not apply to your specific mandolin, but I think that if the tension is totally slacked off for say cleaning before shipping, or just while shipping, it takes awhile for the instrument to get back to the way it sounded beforehand.

[Kevin K]

I had recently decided to give my mandolin a good bath, so to speak. I took off the strings, bridge and cleaned every outside inch. I checked the fit on the bridge to the top and put new strings on and reset the intonation. At first it didn't sound to good but after 4 afternoons of playing it's beginning to sound like it's old self. It's funny doing a guitar the same doesn't effect it as much.
Also makes me wonder about polishes and cleaners that are used that could muffle tone if just releasing tension for a day or so can have such a drastic effect on sound.

[wayfaringstranger]

Captain Crunch: I suppose the tension thing is possible. It was only detuned for less than a day for shipping, and I've since detuned it for a cleaning / bridge adjustment / string change. Didn't hear any real difference (except for the brightness of the new strings) before or after I'd detuned it myself.

I really think it was a change in me rather than in the instrument. I'm playing with a friend tonight who is quite familiar with it, played it after I got it, and had played it several times when it belonged to the previous owner. If she notices a difference, then I suppose I'll have to adjust my hypothesis.

[Kentuckyken]

I believe if a mandolin doesn't have much tone to begin with, it won't ever have any tone. It should have lots of good tone and balance right from the start. It can improve a little with playing and age, but most of all it needs to be built for tone.

[Jonathan Peck]

My personal preference in a new instrument is for one that is evenly balanced and sounds good from the start. My experience with new instruments, guitars and mandolins, has been that the bass starts to get louder and fatter relatively quickly with frequent playing. This is followed by the treble strings which seem to take much longer, especially up the neck. I find that if the treble strings don't come up up the neck, that I lose interest in the instrument and sell it. Maybe this is impatience on my part, but it is something that is hard to tell with a brand new instrument.

I find when the bass comes up, that it is louder and overpowering of the treble strings and the instrument gets a little out of balance until the treble strings catch up. At some point, I would expect the bass strings to mellow some, followed by the treble strings. Hopefuly, in the end, you have an instrument that is well balanced and powerful anywhere on the neck that you play, but I think that an instrument goes through very percievable changes from when new, to some undetermined point down the road.

I think that there are other factors involved than just top wood, although I can't specifically name them. My Collings guitars with sitka tops for example, took forever to open up, and I believe that they still have a long way to go. One other hypothesis that I can't prove is that is seems that going through seasons seems to have an effect on the maturity of a guitar as well as play time.

I can't either prove or disprove any of this, but these have been my obsevations with the instruments I own or have owned.

-jonathan

[mythicfish]

"I agree that a new mandolin mus t have a bark. "

I can only assume that you are referring to a certain type of mandolin capable of playing one particular type of music.

Curt

[mandolooter]

I agree with a lot of the previously posted comments but in my opinion part of the percieved difference is indeed between the ears as the "preconceived sound" is replaced with distinct sound qualities of the instrument. Could both player and instrument open up? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Five]

The sound you are seeking should be there from the beginning to be able to develop into what you are hoping for. I think that older instruments have matured into there tone and once they wake up that is what you have. You can change strings and bridges,nuts,set up to alter the tone and volume you can also try vodo or have the top regraduated , tone bars shaved. But you should learn to know what to listen for if you are buying green mandolins.

[mandolooter]

very well put Five!

[ipmala888]

I have read that some Stradivarius violins don't sound that
good unless they are heavily 'played in'. Also, in a blind
playoff between a Strad and a 3 week old Nagyvary violin,
the audience chose the Nagyvary over the Strad. Apparently,
something good must happen to the wood grain or pores when
you play the sh*t out of an instrument--especially a new mando or a violin. Big Joe is definately right when he says that "they either BARK or they don't"--but, could it
be possible to take an average mandolin and play the sh*t
out of it and make it into a 'great' mandolin ?? And, how
about that rare 'freak' 1-in-10000 new instrument that is
a 'killer' right out of the box--how much better can it get once it is heavily played in ?? Perhaps this is why many
of the old Loars just don't sound that good--is it that they haven't been 'played in' enough, or is it that they
just didn't have the BARK to begin with ??

[sunburst]

...in a blindplayoff between a Strad and a 3 week old Nagyvary violin, the audience chose the Nagyvary over the Strad.

Been reading about that guy huh?
There are many stories of audiences not being able to tell a Strad from any number of new instruments. Sounds like an arguement in favor of violins not opening up with age and playing time.


...could it be possible to take an average mandolin and play the sh*t out of it and make it into a 'great' mandolin ??

I say no, but that is only my opinion. I think it might be possible to play the sh*t out of a very good mandolin and make it into a better mandolin, or maybe even a great mandolin.


And, how about that rare 'freak' 1-in-10000 new instrument that is a 'killer' right out of the box--how much better can it get once it is heavily played in ??

Hardly any, but if you play 10000 new mandolins right out of the box, my bet is on there being way more than one that starts out 'killer'.



Perhaps this is why many of the old Loars just don't sound that good--is it that they haven't been 'played in' enough, or is it that they just didn't have the BARK to begin with ??

I've never heard or played a Loar that wasn't at least a good mandolin, and some are great mandolins. As I said before, I think they sound pretty close to how they sounded when they were three weeks old, unless they've been modified (with a poker or other implement).
...

[GTison]

Maybe,
When I got my 2002 FERN, It didn't matter if the finger rest was on or off it sounded the same. But now I notice a good bit of difference. After about 6 months it changed some, a little fuller sounding. Then it seemed to change a little more at about the 2 year mark. It is different than when I first got it. I'm sure of that. I don't think anyone would disagree that they change. listen to that clip of Richemans Loar compared to a brand new Heiden. Most folks can tell that the Heiden is new. How long before it opens up? I dunno.

[Hans]

Way too much thinking going on here! Reminds me of the old line tossed to a group discussing existentialism..."Why don't you start out thinking you don't exist and see where that gets you?" http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Seriously, I've had customers tell me that after three years their instrument is still opening up when they thought it was about done with breakin.
I don't recommend taking the strings off to clean the instrument. I takes at least a week to get the tone back, and I feel it take more like a month. If you have to clean the instrument just go under the strings.
Finally, if you play 1000 mandolins I don't think you would remember any of them. # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[Kevin K]

Believe me, the next time all strings are off at one time is when it needs new frets. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[jmcgann]

According to Andy Statman, the instrument will develop it's voice according to how you play it- you can play tone INTO an instrument, and it will grow in response to your playing. This is as true for older instruments as it is for new ones...assuming an instrument with good potential to begin with (i.e. not a POS).

I love this idea, because it is the ultimate in instrument customizing- non-invasive, and developed by your own musicianship! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Hans]

I really do agree with you on that one John. I loaned a mandolin to a rather famous player for 4-5 months and when I got it back I was amazed at the change in tone. After I had it for several months it changed again. Not worse...just different.

[jasona]

According to Andy Statman, the instrument will develop it's voice according to how you play it- you can play tone INTO an instrument, and it will grow in response to your playing. This is as true for older instruments as it is for new ones...assuming an instrument with good potential to begin with (i.e. not a POS).

I love this idea, because it is the ultimate in instrument customizing- non-invasive, and developed by your own musicianship! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
John Reischman has voiced the same opinion.I want a case sticker that says, " Its the right hand, stupid." http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[mandolooter]

[QUOTE]According to Andy Statman, the instrument will develop it's voice according to how you play it- you can play tone INTO an instrument, and it will grow in response to your playing. This is as true for older instruments as it is for new ones...assuming an instrument with good potential to begin with (i.e. not a POS).

I love this idea, because it is the ultimate in instrument customizing- non-invasive, and developed by your own musicianship! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Yep...when I play my mandolin...it sounds just like me!!!