Band member

[Markelberry]

Not alot of mando content although I am the mandolin player in a band of friends who have known each other 20 years plus.
We have a member who plays rythm guitar and sings,we have been a more organized band for the last 4 years and are trying to improve individually and as a band. The problem is the rythm player in question is adear friend who makes the band fun to be in,however his volume,lack of staying in time has been a constant problem to the point where I have had to adress it while live gigging. We talk about it in practice and he forgets to keep timing and dynamics in mind when we play. He told a couple of us the other night it was getting to where it was not fun anymore and seemed like a job? We all want to improve and play music with the guy and want him to have fun but this crazy loud random rythm is driving me crazy,hes still not getting it after 4yrs.
Please give me some advice on how to make everyone happy? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[mrmando]

Making everyone happy? Very difficult. Making everyone miserable is easy ... just keep things as they are.

If the band wants to improve, there will be some loss of the element of fun. Just because it's beginning to seem like a job doesn't mean it's not worth doing.

[Bobbie Dier]

Does he want to improve? Is he just happy with playing like he does. If he doesn't want to work on it, you are probably in trouble. I'd try to get with him not in a band practice but with just you two and work on his timing with a metronome and just try to help him keep time. If he doesn't want to do it and it is a bother I'd try to get someone else to fill in on gigs and still play with him at other times. That sounds like a sticky situation. You CAN'T please everyone!

[cooper4205]

sometimes you can't make everyone happy. i know how you feel, the bass player in my school band just didn't have his head or heart into playing the bass seriously. we would go through a song, the timing would be off and when it was done the various members of the band would make suggestions on picking up the tempo or that we should concentrate on timing, etc.

as soon as the next song would start, the bass player would be right back to doing the same- looking out the window, fingers entirely missing the strings, speeding up and slowing down and following the timing (or lack of) of our banjo player among other things.

the thing was, it was a class so we were all stuck together, and we really couldn't say anything to him. to make matters worse, when i asked him when he practiced (since he didn't own a doghouse bass himself) he said he didn't cause he knew all the theory (yea right).

the point is, we couldn't get rid of him or really get on to him about anything, and it the rest of the band members began to resent him, and while we enjoyed the fact that we were getting to perform in the band- we couldn't get the most out of it because the play of or bass player brought the sound of the band down, and after a while it was almost like you even dreaded to have to play with him.

i think everyone has to be on the same page more or less to make a band worse. if the guy doesn't see eye-to-eye with everyone in the band on the direction of the music you want to make, it might be better for the parties involved to go their seperate eays (are far as performing together is concerned) before it gets to where someones feelings get really hurt or before resentment builds up to where your friendship is effected.

[SternART]

I'd think possibly making a tape of the performance and then group listening sessions could help.

[Hallmark498]

Some people can't keep time! =(

[TonyP]

Like everybody has said, making everybody happy is pretty darned hard. And the thing is, it's a band so everybody effects the sound. I know this "fun" thing and it sure means different things to different people. To me there is nothing more fun than everybody working together, paying attention to each other and deep in the groove, the essence of what I call a band. When it's not there, neither is the creativity etc.. For me timing, and tuning are essential. If either are off, I'm forced to a very basic level and am totally distracted. I have to think about what I'm doing and that takes away from the creative part of just feeling the music. That to me that's work. I think your buddy is frustrated with his playing too, and saying "it's work" is a way of backing out without loosing face. You hate to see these things, but why let one person dictate what's fun to the rest of the band?

[JVESEY]

I read an article with a musician once where they compaired a band to a marriage. The gist was that in a marriage you owe it to yourself, your spouse and your family to do everything possible to preserve it. However in a band, professional or not, it's either about the music or the fun. Hopefully both. Now I guess if you're in a gigantic money making machine like a major pop band, and you hate the other guys, it might make sense to make music with them for the business side. But if it's a chore and the music is suffering, the question is simple. Do you want to make good music or keep your friend happy. Friendship is important, so it's not black and white.

I was in a band with an old friend who couldn't keep up with where the band wanted to go. We had to ask him to leave and there were hard feelings. But the band got a lot better. I regret it had to happen, but music was were I put all my free time into. It just wasn't worth it to extend all that energy and avoid a change that really needed to be made.

Good luck.

[Jim Broyles]

I have stopped going to a certain jam, and have quit playing at all in a country band for reasons that seem similar to what you are experiencing. Some people, especially when it starts out informally, believe that anything goes in music. Your buddy probably is having fun playing the way he plays and does not realize how bad it sounds to others, and therefore will never change until he is convinced that it sounds bad and even then, if it is too much like work, he'll quit rather than improve. You might have to just let this happen and replace him.

[Kool Keith]

Markelberry, I've had a VERY similar issue, though not in a formal setting. If you are not all THAT much better than your friend, I would advise you to just deal with it. Don't let your ego go out of control over small potatoes.

But if you (and your band)are markedly better and this guy is holding you back from accomplishing some pretty nice things, you MUST level with the guy and go your separate way. Some people just suck at music; no matter how hard they try, they won't get better. If you don't act true to yourself (and to him) the friction will only erode over time and you'll wind up in an increasingly uncomfortable environment and it will end poorly anyways.

[mandomadman]

Having been in many bands and having dealt with this often among other things. You and your mates have to come to terms with how far you want to take your product and how refined you want it to be. Is your band JUST for fun and replacing him will make it more fun for everyone or do you guys want more,as in; big paying gigs with a good sized fan base and respect among your peers,a record deal etc.etc.,and honestly feel you all have the talent,product,resourses and drive to get there if you just replace your rythm G-player?

A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link.

[mingusb1]

The best band I ever gigged with was comprized of 4 guys that weren't (socially) really that close, and didn't hang out a lot outside of rehearsals and gigs. But man could we kick it in the *ss!!!

And the most difficult band I ever tried to make a go of it with was with a few close friends.

Those were key lessons for me musically, and have helped guide me to more suitable and "prosperous" musical experiences since.

The bottom line is that good friends don't always make good music.

[jamie_t123]

Korg..I think...makes an in the ear metronome...Elderly sells it...you think that maybe he would be open to something like that??? My son's 1st band had the same problem with a Bass player...was a difficult situation...

[Andrew Lewis]

It sounds to me based on his comment to the band that he is on his own way out anyway. I imagine that if your band continues working hard and trying to move forward, that "work" feeling will only increase in him and he will just bow out gracefully and hard feelings will be kept at a minimum. I say just let him "work" his way out if you want to keep that 20 yr. friendship going strong. You might wait until he makes another similar comment and say that y'all are really wanting somebody that's serious about moving forward and that he can just hang out with y'all if he wants to, but you could try to bring in somebody else. In order to keep the friendship, though, I wouldn't do anything that he might perceive as behind his back (like the band had been talking about him in his absence). Just be up-front with him when the timing is good.

[Caleb]

The harsh reality is that, if you want to make great music and be successful, you have to have to right people to make it happen. And if someone doesn't have what it takes, either they have to go, or they will ruin things.

I have been playing music for 15 years and experiences similar to this is the reason that I don't play with anyone anymore. It's just too hard to find the right folks, so I gave up. I play solo, when I play and my wife and I sing together. I run into guys all the time that want to get together and play, but I always so no. I know that chances are we are not going to be on the same page, and then what do you do when that comes up? It is always uncomfortable, so I avoid it entirely.

I had (yes, HAD) a really close friendship with a guy that got destroyed by us playing together. He wrote most of the songs and I thought some were good, but some were downright dreadful. Honesty is the best policy, but when it comes to someone else's art, it often times is the worst policy. The guy could not deal with anyone not liking his songs. He'd always say things like, "well, you can't please everyone...." or "well, you might not like it, but someone else might...." If he would have ever sang with his eyes open, he'd have noticed that nobody liked most of them either.

I don't want to ramble on about it, but it was painful, very painful for him. When I stopped playing with him, he was completely offended and didn't speak to me for years. We speak now and he often hints that we should get together and play, but I will not do it. Ever.

In my experience, and this my offend some here, but I sure don't mean to, most musicians are not completely in control of their emotions and often times lack objectivity when it comes to their 'art'. I am done with that whole mess. So I play alone.

[sbarnes]

hard to do w/o hard feelings....
i've played in the same band for 25 years.....mostly w/the same personnel....
recently had to 'fire' the bass player after 15 years....
real hard feelings but it just had to be done....
bands and marriages are similar (his wife of 25 years left him this year too so it wasn't just us who finally had enough)....
granted this was a friendship totally based on the band, not so much outside the band.....
if you think he's on his way out anyway - by his own choice - steer him in that direction - make rehearsals less fun (more emphasis on doing it right as opposed to just doing it)
he might even be ready to leave now and not want to hurt your feelings.....
be careful though -

[Chadmills]

One person can ruin a any sort of music group for everyone else. Saying, even privately and tactfully, "we have some issues that need sorting" is a very hard thing. Sometimes the group has to come first.

Unless you have a "name" that you very much value, how about letting this band go and re-forming with a new direction, (and one different member.)
Best of luck
Tom

[Ivan Kelsall]

I played in a band some years ago with a Guitar Player & Fiddle player,i was playing Banjo.
We used to run a Folk club at Manchester University,in England & we also used to back Bill Clifton on a regular basis when he lived over here & visited Manchester,so we weren't too bad.The thing is,when we did our own gigs,very often it would take the Guitar player 2 or 3 tries to 'come in',his sense of rhythm was dismal at times. One night after 3 attempts, we finally got going on a Fiddle tune ''Leather Britches',about half way through,the Fiddle player stopped & asked if we'd mind starting again - i left !. If you are going to play in front of an audience,then you have to get it together. It's insulting to your audience to 'practice' in front of them,especially if they've also paid.If it's just an informal gig - no problem - laugh it off !. But what could be more fun in the long term,than playing great,showing the audience that you are good musicians there to entertain them & help them have a good time. Nothing beats that in my book. You need to have a word with your friend & just lay it on the line,in a nice way of course, to make him see that he's got a responsibility to you other guys to play better than he's currently doing, otherwise it's going to cause more tension in the band as you get more & more fed up with him. Most people are reasonable & he should listen to what you have to say,but if he has definite,long term problems with his playing,then he needs to be replaced - some people can't carry a tune in a bucket - it's just the way they are ,unfortunately,
Saska

[Fretbear]

There is a reason that there are band leaders. If you feel that you need to tell someone how to play, or worse, that they should play better, you are already in trouble. Playing with other people is going to simultaneously be the best and worst thing that you ever do. As far as "making people happy" goes, one needs look no farther than to the recent loss of Dempsey Young. Good music is nothing less than one's soul laid bare; there is nothing easy about it. In today's world, where the true value of acoustic music has been pretty much lost in (and to) the mainstream, you have to decide for yourself how (or if) you are going to proceed and with whom.

[250sc]

" He told a couple of us the other night it was getting to where it was not fun anymore"

So, is it fun to play with someone who isn't paying attention to volume and timeing?

Somebody has to give in.

[picksnbits]

Has he heard himself? Hearing recordings of myself playing with the guys I jam with really drove it home to me how bad my rhythm was when I take a break. Where does he stand when playing? Put the bass in one ear and a chopping mando in the other and he'll have a hard time being off beat.

[farmerjones]

So you've got the band that's one person's vision. It's an easy solution. If you're not fitting the vision, you're toast. You got the band that is lead by a co-leadership; maybe two people. Same way. If you don't fit you're gone. Then you got the gang band. Buddies for years. A democracy. How far do you expect to get, satisfying all members instead of working on the sound? If it's more important to get along, that's fine. But i can't put my finger on a name of any band of reknown that's a mell'e.
im in a gang band. A jam for cash. If i listen, we suck about half the time. But i don't expect to get to the Opry with this bunch. There's a guy in our bunch that doesn't know how to throttle back. He's exasperating. i don't show up if he does, if i can help it. If they need me more than him, the phone rings. So far so good.

Good Luck -

Steve

[jim simpson]

If you wan't to make it easy for him to leave, bring in another strong rythm guitar player. He will understand that the new person is there to strengthen the rythmn section. You can turn his mic down or off. He will probably leave on his own if he's not contributing anything.

[monroerules]

Not trying to be arrogant, just providing another viewpoint. A true friendship of 20 years is something to cherish. Unless the band had great potential, I am not sure I would trade a long term friendship for an amateur band.

Mike

[Mandomax]

His comment about it being a job is telling. One way to get tight as a band is by playing the same song over and over until every one knows their cues and has their parts nailed. Do this with one song when he is at rehearsal. Then, gradually, drop the instruments out one at time with each successive run through, until it is just him and the bass, or the fiddle, or whoever is strongest musically. This will highlight his lack of rhythym, timing, etc. It should be obvious to all involved at that point. If not, the leader needs to step up and say, "the rhythym guitar is not nailing it. why don't you practice that on your own?" then, when you meet up again, if he hasn't nailed the part, have him sit the song out. He'll get the hint.

[Ken Sager]

I think he gets the hint (not a hint when you say outright "You need to work on your timing") and doesn't like that he has to focus on his playing, rather than simply playing and having a good time.

I've played with MANY folks like that at gigs where the rest of us just smile and keep going. Sure, the band can sound better, but when you've practiced certain things and nothing changes when you're on stage you can do three things:
- Quit caring
- Quit practicing
- Quit (or fire the offender)

Some other points to consider:

1) Practice that doesn't change performances is a waste of time and can be a huge source of frustration in itself.

2) Decide whether your friendship is more important than playing in a band together, or whether your friendship is more important than making an otherwise OK band sound really good.

3) Wanting someone (or something) else to be different is a root cause of unhappiness. His timing sucks. You know it, he knows it, and it sounds like wanting to change it is making him unhappy (hence the work comment).

My best advice is to simply talk about it with him. Ask him if he is offended by the comments about his rhythm playing. Does he realize he's causing musical problems and that the friendship shouldn't be threatened by talking about it, or wanting to fix it? Is he strangely invested enough in the band and playing that if he thinks he can't change his playing he can't be a friend?

Be a friend first, band-mate second, and approach it as a friend would.

If he can't cut it in the band and the band wants to progress, you should ALL find a way to stay friends and have the band you all want.

Best of luck,
Ken

[Jason Kessler]

My first bluegrass band included my brother on banjo. Lee was not, shall we say, a "natural musician," and issues like timing and theory came to him with difficulty. However, he recognized this, and worked his *ss off; in fact, he worked harder at his instrument than the rest of us. In the end, he really didn't hold us back much at all.

This is the only way a positive outcome can result from being in an ambitious band with a rhythmically-challenged member; he saw the problem, recognized that it was holding the band back, and worked hard to resolve his issues. It sounds like your guy has his head elsewhere, and so the situation is unlikely to improve. Unfortunately, you as a band now need to decide if you want to just jam to have fun (which is fine) or prune the dead wood so that the tree can grow stronger(which is also fine).

[Tighthead]

He wrote most of the songs and I thought some were good, but some were downright dreadful. #Honesty is the best policy, but when it comes to someone else's art, it often times is the worst policy. #The guy could not deal with anyone not liking his songs. #He'd always say things like, "well, you can't please everyone...." or "well, you might not like it, but someone else might...." #If he would have ever sang with his eyes open, he'd have noticed that nobody liked most of them either. #
To paraphrase Doug Stanhope:

Songs are like children. They're beautiful...to their creators. To everyone else they're silly and freakin' irritating.

My experience with people who say they just want to do it for "fun" really mean they don't want to have to work on getting better, and they don't want anyone to offer suggestions. Even if it's just an informal session, there has to be (in my mind) at least the desire to do it as well as possible.

[Jerry Byers]

If the intent of the band is to get stronger, then pruning the dead wood is probably a better option. Just keep in mind when the band asks you to shape up or ship out, you can't take offense to it.

[August Watters]

His comment about it being a job is telling. #

Yes, for sure! He probably thinks playing the guitar is fun and relaxing, but practicing on his own isn't. So why not make practicing more fun? How about making music-minus-one recordings of the band without his part, so he can practice the songs on his own in between rehearsals. The recording won't speed up and slow down to accommodate his timing problem, so maybe he'll start to understand how his timing is off. Or use audio loops from Band-in-a-Box or a similar program, since that makes it really easy to hear where the timing problems are.

I think you always have to work on timing, because it's either getting better or worse, depending on how much attention you're paying.

[duuuude]

Get yerself one of them shocking dog collars and zap him when he goes off-tempo. Bet he learns quick!

[Markelberry]

Certanily alot of great comments,I spoke to him alone and in private the other evening. And I told him how I felt about him being a part of the group,he sings well and loves to play I think more for fun than anything,he trys to do better but forgets to focus alot and has for awhile. I am by no means a pro but I play pretty well and keep good time and always try to stay aware of whats going on around me in the band. The other members likewise do,and we all practice on our own to progress for the enjoyment of the music,we all have day jobs and will likely never become Blue Highway etc. So he indicated to me he did not like being corrected on stage and would like that saved for practice,which is likely more appropriate. I like the idea of putting him between the bass player and my mando maybe that will help. I kmow he gets tired of us telling him where he needs to improve,I think I will let it ride awhilke cut him some slack see if he trys to do better,or maybe its true some just dont quite get it? Time will tell if he wants to bow out gracefully so be it,I want to remain friends and will continue to try and improve as a player. I also play in a second bluegrass band that is all about tuning timing and team playing and it has caused me to work at it alot harder on my own.

[dmamlep]

we always have trouble with guitar players, does everyone
else, we cant ever seem to keep them, fickle bunch if you ask me. and not many musicians can take it when you say something about them, its a personal thing, but if you want to get better you have to discuss everything with the group, we decided to record our practices and that way,
someone would say. hey whats that sound is that me or what,'its a better way of keeping friends and maybe he will
hear what everyone else is hearing