John duffey's blonde f-5

[John Kasley]

On the album cover of the Country Gentlemen, Country Songs Old and New (FA 2409) John Duffey is shown playing a Gibson blonde F-5. The headstock shows the usual "The Gibson" inlay. However the usual, stylized flowerpot inlay appears to be replaced by a "real" flowerpot with the plant extending to the extreme point of the headstock.
There also appear to be what I would call, "banjo style" inlays on the fretboard. Does anyone know anything about this instrument? Did Duffey have the inlays added? If so, who did the work?
The same instrument can be seen on the cover of FA2410, but only the headstock and a portion of the neck.
BTW, Eddie Adcock is shown playing an Epiphone banjo, which seems to me a somewhat unconventional choice...but then the Gentlemen were a very unconventional bluegrass band when these albums were recorded in the sixties.

[cooper4205]

i think jack tottle has the same mandolin or one similar, here is a pic (if you can make it out.

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h75/wesb4217/B000035X3P.jpg


if i recall correct he said it was a 1919-21 F4 that had a new top and neck put on it, i can't remember of the top of my head who did it (but i'm sure somebody here will). if it is the same one it's a really cool mandolin.

[AlanN]

Is that the same instrument he played on Back Roads Mandolin? That was a cool release, probably 1977 or so. Nice mix of tunes, some chestnuts, some obscure, and featured the great Kenny Kosek on fiddle and Van Manakis on guitar. Jack is one heckuva cross-picker.

That Tottle above is one good album - down home and hot at the same time.

[allenhopkins]

I attended a Tottle mandolin workshop in Cambridge in the late '70's, and he said that his mandolin was an F-4 conversion.

[f5loar]

I suspect Tom Morgan had a hand in fixing one up for Duffey. Duffey became a master luthier too with his introduction of the first "duck"F model mandolin. He was after a "bone"crusher and "mastertone"killer.

[Markelberry]

Is that the same instrument he played on Back Roads Mandolin? That was a cool release, probably 1977 or so. Nice mix of tunes, some chestnuts, some obscure, and featured the great Kenny Kosek on fiddle and Van Manakis on guitar. Jack is one heckuva cross-picker.

That Tottle above is one good album - down home and hot at the same time.
Alan I used to have a copy of that recording is it still availible? Mark

[bush-man]

I suspect Tom Morgan had a hand in fixing one up for Duffey. Duffey became a master luthier too with his introduction of the first "duck"F model mandolin. He was after a "bone"crusher and "mastertone"killer.
When I think of Duffey, I always think of him playing that "weird" looking mando of his. Does anyone know how many of them he built? The only other player I know of that played one is Akira Otsuka. That mando looked like it would fly away if you took your hand off the finger board! lol http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

russell

[cooper4205]

akira and the duck

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h75/wesb4217/duckmandoscan.jpg

[MandoSquirrel]

Just the two.

[John Kasley]

Thanks for the post about the possible Tom Morgan connection. I think I'll try to follow that lead and see where it takes me.

[cooper4205]

didn't duffy also play an F7?

[cbogle]

As I remember, Duffey played the "duck" as his primary instrument after the theft of his F-12. After recovering it, he began playing mostly the Gibson again.

[bush-man]

Just the two.
Really? Wow I didn't know he only built two. Now I am curious, does anyone know where His "Duck" went after his death?

curious russell

[cooper4205]

was he playing an F7 or F12 on the High Lonesome DVD? it really looked like the one Big Mon used to play with Charlie.

does anyone have any pics of the mandolin the original poster was refering to?

and one more thing, what was it about the 'duck' that made it a cannon. were those wings hollow?

[Rroyd]

The original "duck" is rumored to be in the hands of a friend of his, who resides in the Nashville area. He is a player, but not well-known, as I recall.

[MandoSquirrel]

There was either an interview or article 25-30 years ago where the ducks were discussed, but I don't remember which mag. As I recall, they were laminate entirely hollow, but I could be remembering wrong.

[don richards]

Not to digress - but if he would comment - Willie of CAFE fame knows something more concerning the supposed "theft" of John's F12 - which was later..."found"..!? hee...hee... You out there Willie? - Moose. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[bush-man]

Now I am really curious....

russell

[f5loar]

Duffy's F12 was a pre-war F12 which had the short necks in them like the F4s. He had a long neck like the F4 put in it keeping the original inlays. That was one cutting mandolin in his hands. The duck was more of a passing fad at the time.

[cooper4205]

thanks, i only regret that i never had a chance to see duffey play live http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[MandoSquirrel]

thanks, i only regret that i never had a chance to see duffey play live http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
Anything in the spirit of fun; I'll never forget him using a Bic lighter to play slide (I think it was "After Midnight"). nice guy, who'd talk to fans, like most BG stars.

[levin4now]

I don't have any Seldom Scene recordings (gasp!) but have been hearing them here and there. I really like Duffey's playing and singing. I think "wait a minute" is a great song too.

Anway, how did John die and how old was he? (i'm sure i can find this out via google, but I'm here now.

[levin4now]

Here is the wikipedia on him. #Maybe you folks want to expand it?

-----
John Duffey (March 4, 1934 - December 10, 1996) was a bluegrass music innovator and musician.

Known as "The Father of Newgrass," Duffey founded two of the most influential groups in bluegrass, The Country Gentlemen and The Seldom Scene. His tastes were eclectic. He raided old folk song books and Protestant hymnals for non-standard material. He embraced the music of Bob Dylan early. His mandolin paying was jazz-inflected.

The son of a singer at the Metropolitan Opera, Duffey possessed a soaring range that shifted almost unnoticeably from high tenor notes to falsetto. The contrast of his voice with the mellow baritone of Country Gentleman guitarist Charlie Waller created a rich blend without precedent in bluegrass.

As a member of the Country Gentlemen, Duffey was inducted into the International Bluegrass Music Hall of Honor in 1996.

#This article about an American musician is a stub. You can help Wikipedia by expanding it.
----------------------

[f5loar]

He was also the first bluegrass artist to sing about a gay barber named "Bruce" in the song "Big Bad Bruce". His stage humor was always entertaining. Very innovative mandolinist. Whenever I hit a "way out there" lick I just say I learned it from Duffey!

[bush-man]

Also known for his sartorial splendor as the "prince of polyester" http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

russell

[Willie]

Here it is, You asked for it Moose...If Duffey played a blonde mandolin at all it must have been when his F-12 was missing, it was later found in a pawn shop in Baltimore, which is why he built "The Duck"..Johns everyday mandolin was an F-12 converted to a long neck...At one time Akira owned both of the Ducks and might have sold one by now....Just because John is shown with a blonde mandolin on the cover of an album doesn`t mean he owned one, he played lots of mandolins on shows that weren`t his...If this was a live recording he may have just borrowed it for the session if his F-12 was still missing...Do you know what year it was recorded? BTW...The "Duck" was carved, not laminated....Hope this helps and I`m sure there are tales out there that some of you have heard that might not be as I have said..Believe what you want but John was one of my good friends, I`m not saying I know everything about him but I try to pass on info that I know to be true....Willie

[Scotti Adams]

.thanks for the insight Willie...Its appreciated.

[f5loar]

If someone can post a photo of this blonde F5 we might can solve the mystery of was it his or someone elses. I remember the cover on Folkways Records from the early 60's but can't seem to put my hands on it amoung my 10,000 LPs stash. I suspect it could be a Tom Morgan F5 copy.

[jim simpson]

Here's a picture of the album. It's probably not sharp enough to help identify the instrument.

[MandoSquirrel]

BTW...The "Duck" was carved, not laminated....Hope this helps and I`m sure there are tales out there that some of you have heard that might not be as I have said..
I'll accept your correction, I was citing what I thought I remembered reading from probably more than 20 years ago, so definitely not reliable.

[f5loar]

That's pretty bad. I can't tell if it's a flowerpot or fern but from the fuzz I see it's a copy.

[red7flag]

Read that at the end of his career he would practice vocals but not mandolin.
Tony

[Salty Dog]

Willie, the picture from the album is of Folkways original "FA 2409 - Country Songs Old and New" which was released in 1960. #My recollection is that John's F-12 was stolen after he left the Country Gentlemen (1969) and was still missing when he first heard John Starling (Ca 1970). #I recall reading that it was recovered from a Baltimore Pawn Shop. #It supports your theory that the blonde might be a borrowed one or one that he owned before the F-12.

[John Kasley]

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread. After reading that Duffey often used other peoples mandolins, this sent me off in a different direction. I went back to the album notes for FA 2409 and noted that Mike Seeger collaborated with Duffey and Pete Kuykendal in selecting the songs. The notes also state that he recorded (engineered?) the album.
I found at a picture on the web of Mike Seeger holding an blonde, f-hole style mandolin.

http://www.cookephoto.com/nlcr.html

Alas, the peghead is hidden from view. The picture is from the same era as FA 2409, so now I'm wondering if the mandolin Duffey is shown playing on the cover is actually Mike Seeger's? It seems a plausible conjecture, anyone out there have any additional knowledge?

[Willie]

Let me jump back in here and say this...I didn`t meet John until about 1964 and since this pix on the album you are showing is early `60`s I can`t elaborate on the blonde mandolin but I have seen John play many mandos that weren`t his and also Saltydog you are correct, he Had his F-12 stolen after he departed the Gentlemen and it was recovered in a pawn shop in Baltimore, or as the locals call it, "Balmer"..I`m sure before he got the F-12 he was seen with other mandos, thats why some people say they thought he owned an F-7, others say he played an A model Gibson, which he may have...One thing about Duffey he will not be forgotten as long this forum stays on line...Great work and discussion fellows and girls, I`m proud to have know him....Another thing about John if I may..If you took an instrument to him for repair and he didn`t think it needed it he would tell you and not be like a lot of money hungry repairmen out there and take your money for needless work, I have seen and played an F-2 that he converted to an F-5, he used a step from the old barroom in Georgetown called "The Cellar Door" where he played for many years and that door step came from one of the old tall ships that came up the Potomac River back in the Revolutionary war, talk about and old peice of wood,..That mandolin was as loud as any I have ever seen and heard. He wanted to buy it after he finished it but no sale, he was an honest person when it came to working on mandos....Willie

[Willie]

I`m back again...If Richard is on here he can jump in and add some more info about whether Tom Morgan did in fact build that blonde mandolin, Richard`s son plays in a band with Tom`s son....I can contact them and see if I can find out more on that ...sorry to be taking up so much space on this subject....Willie

[bush-man]

Keep posting Willie. I for one find all of this fascinating.

russell

[cbogle]

Hey Willie--Are you able to shed any light on the public feud between Duffey and instrument dealer Harry West? I recall some hilarious ads they placed in Bluegrass Unlimited bashing each other......late 60's, early 70's?

[f5loar]

My first gut feeling was that was the Seeger 20's Blonde Fern which Mike still has and has had it at least that long. Makes sense that this is a studio photo and stands to reason the Duff would want a nice mandolin to record with. I know he always got good tone no matter what mandolin he had. Duffey was a true trail blazer in finding new mandolin sounds. Those that knew him will never foget him and it's good to talk about him for new pickers coming along that might get into his style.

[Spruce]

I had this pic on file....

Neumann U67 or maybe an 87 on the Duck...

[Bob Sayers]

I think f5loar might be right. #You can see Mike Seeger's "blonde Fern" on the Rainbow Quest DVD featuring the New Lost City Ramblers and the Greenbriar Boys. #In the NLCR segment, Mike, John Cohen, and Pete Seeger each take a turn playing a number on it.

It looks a lot like the mandolin that Duffy is playing on the Folkways CD, though it's hard to tell if Duffy's instrument has a fern inlay.

f5loar, do you think that the natural finish on Seeger's mandolin is original? #Or was it originally a sunburst F-5? #In either case, it's a very handsome looking mandolin.

Bob

[f5loar]

It's suppose to be original like a blonde F4 finish. As early as Mike got it (1958?)there were no F5 refinish guys doing stuff like that. Gibson made a few F12 and F5 blondes in the 50's too.

[Willie]

cbogle..Sorry, I don`t know anything about a feud with Harry West and Duffey..I at one time was an avid reader of B.U. but cancelled my subscription when I open it up one day and there was a pix of a Gibson "Flying V" electric guitar and all the time this mag was for us bluegrassers that don`t get enough exposure in other mags, so I cancelled right then and there and haven`t bought an issue since....I`m not tying to be hard nosed and hard to please but that didn`t set well with me being a die hard bluegrass picker....Willie

[Ken Waltham]

Tom; are you saying that Seeger's F5 is an oriignal Fern, from the 20's? And, blond finish?? I know you have seen a lot of this stuff in person, but I have never, ever heard of something like that, and am very suspicious...

Ken???

[f5loar]

It's on the books as a blonde but with new neck so could be done later on.

[Darryl Wolfe]

We were never able to confirm whether the finish was original or not. #Close inspection of photos does indicate it to be genuine period Gibson. If I recall correctly, Tommy or I contacted him by phone for the serial number in the late 70's. Here is all the F5 Journal has:

81626 F5 Mandolin Fern, new neck, blonde finish Mike Seeger

[Bob Sayers]

I was a great fan of the New Lost City Ramblers back in the 1960s, first and foremost for their music but also because they had unimaginably great instruments: original pearl and herringbone Martin guitars; Fairbanks/Vega Whyte Laydie banjos; original Gibson Mastertone and trapdoor banjos; and Gibson F-5 mandolins. I must have spent hours studying their album covers and particularly this photo in the booklet for the NLCR Vol. 4 album. It's still pretty amazing!

Bob

[f5loar]

I use to look at those same album photos and hope someday I would own such great instruments. From that photo you do see the blonde F5 along side what looks to be Mike's '22 Loar. He's had them both forever so if it's not an original Blonde Fern it's a 50's refinish by Gibson which is possible since the mention of a new neck. And it stands to reason that's the one Duffy is playing in the studio photo of the Folkways LP from about the same year. I did speak to Mike about it some 20 years ago and he sent me color photos which for some reason I can't find right now. At the time it looked original finish to me. Mike may not know as both finishes would be in lacquer. Darryl should have copies of my photos to submit.

[Willie]

I posted some more info on another thread under Bluegrass about some info that I got from Tom Morgans son...Tom said he only built one blonde mandolin and that was for Bill Torbet who once played with Jimmy Martin and Tom said that a photo on Charlie Wallers web site shows the blonde mando with the members of The Country Gentlemen at that time and it could be the same mandolin that is on the album cover that is in question but he can`t be 100% sure of it....willie