Stuck, plain old stuck

[edawg]

I have been playing for about 3 years. I dont have anyone to play fiddle tunes with (my first choice) so I have been learning lots of beatles, grateful dead and other classic rock songs. These are the jams I come across.

But, I am feeling really stuck. I dont feel that I am getting better. I have the hardest time trying to improv - well, i can not do it. When I do, it sounds very dry and boring compared to the cool sounds guitarists do.

Of course, I, myself, must overcome this but I know that many people go through this. Anyone have any tips on improv, exercises (I have also been punishing myself with learning my scales down the fretboard).

advice, please.
thanks

Will some of the other guys in the jam not sit down and learn some accompaniment to some tunes you have learned?
If they like the Dead they will like the Dawg/blusgrass stuff.
As you say, the important thing is finding a like minded person to play with on a regular basis and to bounce stuff back and forth.

[Dave Gumbart]

Learn lots of fiddle tunes. Seriously. Even if you don't have the opportunity to play them with others, if that's what you like, you'll find the satisfaction of playing them, even on your own, to be worthwhile. Plus, learning to play all those 1/8 notes in the fiddle tunes, your fingers will get a good workout.

And once you become familiar with enough of those fiddle tunes, your mind and fingers may be more at home with the other stuff. I get to play with a friend on occasion who is much more at home with the Dead, Dylan, Neil Young, etc. I'm not great (at all...) at improvising to those tunes, but having spent enough time on what I like - the fiddle tunes - I find my aptitude to be better when I attempt the other stuff.

I'm sure others have books and exercises they can recommend - I have some of them and working through them slowly helps the fingers and learning the fretboard.

Dave

[Andrew Lewis]

I second the fiddle tune thing. The chords to accompany them are usually pretty simple so you could easily just say "Hey man, play this. Here are the chords." Any decent guitarist or bass player should be able to pick it up quickly. If they truly enjoy music, they will probably have a good time breaking from their routine.
As far as getting better at mando, they will help you a lot with familiarity with common scales and licks that will increase your vocabulary for improv. (and give your fingers a good workout)

[Steve G]

Another vote for fiddle tunes! Also jamming with records and the radio. Did I just say 'records?' Oh Lord...

[mandomadman]

edawg.....heck everyone,

If you have never been to Mandozine.com and used the tabledit files, It's an incredible resource I recomend it to everyone. There's enough stuff in the tabledit files to make allmost anyone a monster picker. Tons of tunes,exercises etc. and sooo much more. My second favorite site next to this one !!! #You'll need to download the free version of 'TEFview' or 'tabledit' to use it.

From the home page at Mandozine.com , click 'tabledit files', download the program then go to categories and scroll down to and select 'exercises', click 'find tabledit files', go to second page and select 'scale patterns for improv', and indulge yourself.

That should keep you busy and get you out of your rut !!! You probably allready know but if you don't, Learn your 1st position scales including the pentatonics with and without the blue notes. Lots of fiddle tunes are just fast pentatonic stuff with lots of open notes. Learning the closed position scales is most important too. It's ALL in the exercises section and more !

Hope this helps !

[JeffD]

it sounds very dry and boring compared to the cool sounds guitarists do. #
In addition to everyone else's advice, with which I wholeheartedly agree, I think it is important to add something -

You don't have to compete with the guitar. The mandolin has its own sound, its own integrity. Don't try to emulate the guitar - the guitar will always be better at being a guitar.

By the same logic - the mandolin will always be better at being a mandolin. Do the things that the mandolin does best. Bring out the mandoliny sounds of your instrument - let those guitar players try and emulate the cool sounds mandolinists do.

[kymandolin29]

i think you should start listening and PLAYING mandolin music or just get a guitar....if you wan to play mandolin ....why wood you keep learning classic rock songs....that makes no sense dude....mr

[chopaholic]

My guitar playing son comes home from college, picks up my mandolin(without asking-which drives me nuts) and proceeds to think he's Dave Matthews. I wanna throw up! I tell him to play it like a mandolin or put it back. I still love him though. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[chopaholic]

Sorry edawg, my previous post was venting and not helpful. I've only been playing 2 years, and always pass on solos if I'm ever playing with others. But as I play at home alone and try to work out solo parts, I can't throw in a bundle of notes, but a hammer, slide or doublestop tremolo in the right spot goes a long way. These techniques IMO make the mandolin sound unique. As far as scales go, I'm mostly a first position player who only ventures up the neck with chords. But I find that the more you play fiddle tunes, your fingers remember the next "sound" you're looking for. This may be backwards, but I don't say to myself "you are in this key, your notes must come from this scale", I just pick out what sounds right and hope that my fingers remember where to go. If I fret a string in a solo, I can't always tell you what note it is, but I can tell you if it sounds right. My approach, right or wrong.

[Kevin Briggs]

Steve Kauffman's Bluegrass Workout set has been helpful to me. I got it from a friend, without the book, so I was forced to learn lots of the songs stricly by ear, which was also very helpful. You can play along with the songs at two different speeds, and there are tons of songs on it, so you don't get bored for a long time.

[mandocrucian]

I have the hardest time trying to improv - well, i can not do it. #When I do, it sounds very dry and boring compared to the cool sounds guitarists do.
Maybe it's because they know how to improvise while you don't, and really isn't about mandolins vs. guitars as much as you think.

Don't try to emulate the guitar - the guitar will always be better at being a guitar.
The latter may me true, but that's no reason not to emulate what it does and how it functions. If you want to play various types of music, you have to understand how that music works, and the best way to do that is study what the alpha instruments of the genre do. (and then supplant them)

Where is it carved in stone that rock/blues must be performed with the two guitar/bass/drums (or guitar/keys/bass/drums) lineup? Don't want to compete with guitars in that setting; do it without any guitars.


i think you should start listening and PLAYING #mandolin music or just get a guitar....if you wan to play mandolin ....why wood you keep learning classic rock songs....

There's always a contingent that will tell you mandolin = bluegrass and that the instrument doesn't belong anywhere else, not even in Italian music! (Brings to mind a quote I've seen in film clips the last few days: "And I say segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever!")

OK, then.... let's that somewhere further.. If you want to play fiddle tunes, why don't you get a fiddle. That stuff is going to sound better and be much more effective played on a fiddle. Aside from #chording, a bowed instrument has many times the expressive capablities of a mandolin. You have full control of the volume/tone/(microtonal)intonation of the notes throughout their duration and far superior slurring/phrasing options and unlimited sustain. (Of course, it is a lot harder to learn, but that's the price you have to pay for the bigger payoff later.)

From a purely pragmatic standpoint of avoiding the continual stereotyping the mando seems to invite, I'd recommend diversifying and becoming a multi-instrumentalist. Play the same stuff you know on mandolin on a guitar, or fiddle, give yourself a escape hatch from genre confinement.

Niles H

<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>PS: If this thread had been posted in the BG/NG/CW section, I wouldn't even have bothered to respond to any of this.</span>

[Kevin Briggs]

Mandocrucian, you're starting to sound like Mickey Cochran....:angry:

[jmcgann]

Regarding getting stuck with improv, what Niles has to say about that (up to the last two paragraphs) is good advice. I'd add that it's important to figure out exactly what kind of improv are you going for?

1) Rock solos
2) Jazz improv
3) Bluegrass/Fiddle Tune improv

These are all great areas that relate to each other, yet require different approaches (with lots of overlap).
PICK ONE and leave the others for later. Each is an area in which you can go very deep!

1) Use your ear a lot. Learn the pentatonic scales, and get to know how to play the blues. Listen to great soloists and steal their lines. Listen how some players 'play for the song' with less notes. Listen how some jam band approaches 'go for it' on a one or two chord progression. Learn about modes and how/why they work. Learn all you can about triad chords and inversions. You can then start to craft your own variations/solos based on the vocabulary you've absored (as opposed to 'insert lick I learned from tab that works over X chord here).


2) Use your ear a lot. Learn the essential repertoire of the style Learn the pentatonic scales, and get to know how to play the blues. Listen to great soloists and steal their lines. Listen how some players 'play off the melody' with less notes. Listen how some soloists essentially recompose melodies over (and through) the chord changes. #Learn about modes and how/why they work. Learn all you can about triad chords and inversions. Learn the 5 basic seventh chord food groups (major 7, dom 7. minor 7, minor 7 b5, diminished). Get some Jamey Aebersold stuff (like volume 1 and 2 and 3 etc.). Go to jazzmando.com. Be prepared to work hard. You can then start to craft your own variations/solos based on the vocabulary you've absored (as opposed to 'insert lick I learned from tab that works over X chord here).


3) Use your ear a lot. Learn the essential repertoire of the style. Listen to great soloists and steal their lines. Listen how some players play the melodies with little variation, and some go to town. Learn all you can about triad chords and inversions. When you learn a fiddle tune, learn ONE version of it really well. Then learn someone else's version. Repeat until you have absorbed the same tune played (your number here) different ways. You'll naturally start juggling variations and phrases. You can then start to craft your own variations/solos based on the vocabulary you've absored (as opposed to 'insert lick I learned from tab that works over X chord here).

IMHO: DON"T limit yourself to mandolin players. Listen to ALL the instruments and learn from them. While it is important to understand the heritage of your instrument, musical inbreeding happens when the circle of influences is small. If you want to go for jazz, listen to horn players! As Niles suggests, the alpha instruments hold the key to what can be done MUSICALLY. The instrument is not usually the problem; it's the nut behind the wheel http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[mandocrucian]

When you learn a fiddle tune, learn ONE version of it really well. Then learn someone else's version. Repeat until you have absorbed the same tune played (your number here) different ways. You'll naturally start juggling variations and phrases. You can then start to craft your own variations/solos based on the vocabulary you've absored (as opposed to 'insert lick I learned from tab that works over X chord here).


Absolutely. It's comparitive analysis. Not only do you learn different ways to paraphrase the same basic melody, but you begin to notice all the "-isms which are identifying markers of different players. #ie. Vassar-isms, Bush-isms, Tony Rice-isms, Grisman-isms, Laswson-isms, Jethro-ism etc.

Back when I learning by transcribing lots of solos (25 years ago), I wouldn't stop with just the mandolin solo of the tune on that particular record, but transcribe the solos of other instruments as well - the guitar break, Dobro, fiddle, sometimes (if it was Bill Keith of Carl Jackson or one of those guys) the "melodic" banjo version. Then pull off the solos of the same tune from other records. #It's like a panel discussion with all those different players giving opinions as to how you can approach the tune.


(up to the last two paragraphs)

Well, it's "ironic" parody, but, also the conclusions I've come to after a long time. A fiddle is capable of "more" in areas the mandolin can only suggest/imply. For chordal/rhythm, it takes a lot more work on a mando to do things that guitar can handle, but not anywhere to what can be done on a B-3 organ (with pedalboard).

NH

[mythicfish]

The fullness of musical expression is severely constrained if it remains a solitary pursuit. When shared in the company of other musicians and an audience, it becomes a dynamic process and can reach greater heights. While time in the shed is
necessary and well-spent, I would not be doing it unless the fruits of my efforts reached beyond my couch. Otherwise I would be engaged in astronomy or stamp collecting. Oh, wait ... I already do that too!

Curt

[mzuch]

edawg: While the debate you seem to have started is a good one, I don't think it really addresses your question. My suggestion is to use a program like Band in A Box. Just enter the chords and choose a bluegrass style, and you'll have a band to play fiddle tunes with. And by doing the same with classic rock, you can practive improvisation for you jams. BIAB is the most patient, accommodating set of backup musicians I know. NFI, YMMV, etc.

[jmcgann]

Mandocrucian, you're starting to sound like Mickey Cochran.... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

Just curious-what does Mickey sound like?

[groveland]

...it sounds very dry and boring compared to the cool sounds guitarists do

I truly believe the following.

You have to be passionate about what you're playing to put it across. #And I don't mean by making the Ugly Face when you solo. #You have to be intimate with, and personally excited about what you're playing and be dying to tell the world about it, like, "Have I got something for you! #You're gonna love this! Check this out!" #The guys that are most successful in public speaking know their topics and are absolutely nuts about what they're trying to put across and their passion is infectious. #So why is playing a solo any different?

How you get to that point of enthusiasm for what you're playing is a deep subject, and I think there are threads on the cafe addressing performance preparation and the mindset required for success. #But I think the first step is to follow the expert advice above to get to know your topic. #But in the end, you have to LOVE what you're offering.


Anyone have any tips on improv, exercises?
I'd also like to add $0.02 by way of mythicfish.

The dynamic of being in the midst of real players, realtime, will really cement your chops. #It doesn't matter if you practice for years on the couch - Take it out in front of real people and you'd be surprised how your well-practiced material falls apart on the highwire-without-a-net. You have the distraction of "Is this working?" and being blindsided by "Why is the guitar player playing that? He never did that before" and "Whoa, I just missed that note, now what?" and the inevitable "I wonder what they think of me?" Result: The first few times out there's a train wreck on your solo. But the next time, the chops are seasoned, effortless, second nature, they've been through the trial by fire, and are ready for prime time. They're part of you.

So the best exercise, I believe, is to put it out there with real people in realtime.

[Strange1]

Try this site........ http://www.homestead.com/hetzler/music_2.html
I play them on the computer (could record them to CD) and have a great time jamming. No dirty looks when I make mistakes either. Good luck.

Jack

[gnelson651]

I too have been playing the mando for three year and I too feel "stuck" so I went from fiddle tunes(and fiddle jams) into bluegrass (it was my first love when I started playing the banjo some thirty years ago and then went to Nowhere'sville with it (banjo) because I had no one to jam with or find a teacher). Which is why I post this (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=12;t=39459;hl=gnelson651) back in November.

I am finding that improvasation is not an easy endeavor and takes time to develop. I agree with Niles and John, it takes study, practice, patience and #especially ear training to get to a level of good playing in a jam or gig session to improvise.

I've been told by several people in the bluegrass jams I go to that I continue to show improvement. They can hear it because they may only hear me once a month or two. I can't hear it because I'm with it every day. It comes gradually and on a daily basis. Its too subtle for you to hear but others will notice.

So, stay with it, it will come. Atleast I'm hoping the same thing for myserlf.

[mandroid]

I've heard many times , so I'll share it here: Sing , or Hum the melody or a harmony with the melody line, as you hear, then play what you have vocalized .


Do Re Mi Fa So La Ti Do

[Fretbear]

If you don't know your horn during the week, it won't know you on the weekend.....
Dizzy Gillespy

[seanonabutton]

Probably the thing that has helped me the most when it comes to soloing is playing the Bach solo violin stuff because its so diverse but also pattern and riff based. I have found it easy to use it in any key in any kind of music.

[jmcgann]

If you don't know your horn during the week, it won't know you on the weekend.....

Leave it to Dizzy to nail it! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Rick Crenshaw]

Get Brad Davis's DVDs or CDs and jam along. They're great for guitar and mandolin. Four speeds, lots of time to play the tune. You'll have to find your own tab, but the songs are played in the commonly played key. The guitar tabs are found at the Flatpick Guitar Magazine site. You'll always have a jamming partner. Slow, medium slow, medium fast, and fast tempos. Loads of fun!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[JeffD]

Don't try to emulate the guitar - the guitar will always be better at being a guitar.
The latter may me true, but that's no reason not to emulate what it does and how it functions.
Well, I suppose any statement can be taken too far. Of course it is important to listen to all kinds of music and all instruments, and see what you can do on the mandolin in response.

I guess what I really meant was - don't measure your playing ability on the mandolin by how much it sounds like a guitar, or a fiddle, or anything else.

The mandolin excells in many many different kinds of music, but always as a mandolin, not as a small funny guitar, or a plucked double stringed fiddle, or whatever.

[Fretbear]

The sad truth about playing several instruments (especially if you are just learning) is not so much that playing one "effects" the other; it is that in the beginning you find that you can't play anything (on anything), and when your playing matures (usually after many, many years, if you are not a prodigy or horrendously talented) then you start to find that it is much easier to play what you want to play on (almost) anything because you have a better understanding of what is involved in producing and reproducing sound, the primary element of music.
"If you can hear it, you can play it..."
Tony Rice

[olgraypat]

I would listen to Niles' advice and then buy his book on the Pentatonic Mandolin. I think it would help....I also enjoy some fiddle tunes, but I'm not sure why that's any more helpful than other tunes. And, finally, we all get stuck from time to time, so I would say just hang in there and don't get too uptight about it.

[mandowood]

I'll second the recommendation of The Pentatonic Mandolin by Niles Hokannen, as well as his Bluegrass Up The Neck. I've been working through both of those and have seen improvements in this area.

Also, 2 books by Brad Laird might be helpful. Mandolin Master Class and Mandolin Training Camp. One of them (I forget which one) has an accompaniment cd with rhythym guitar playing I-IV-I-V-I in every key, so you can practice improvising alone in whatever key you want. Good for working through pentatonic scales.

[Mattg]

Thanks Strange1. Love the fiddle tune site.

[edawg]

wow, im overwhelmed with the postive advice.

I do play with tefview. I have been trying to learn my pentatonic scales and minor scales. I love playing fiddle tunes and I have been learning a version of a fiddle tune then noodling around with other versions i learn thru tefview. I am quite confident in my fiddle tunes.

I just dont have many friends that dig bluegrass (this does not discourage me from eating and breathing the music). so when the chicks come over, me and my buddy are charming them by playing the weight and blackbird. I just want to step up my overall playing with the ability to play the chords (not just chop but play little fills or tags) and of course jam out.

I realize the number one thing is training my ear and it has come a long way from when i first started. The chords change quickly and my arpeggios sound tired when I jam. I know I have to be patient and practice and it will all come in time, i hope.

[JVESEY]

We're really in a golden age of Mandolin. Amazing instruments being made. Rediculous players. Great community. AND more instructional material than ever.

When I started guitar in the '70's. Most everyone sat and listened to vinyl over and over. It was hard to find a great teacher. And most instructional material was hard to find and not always that good.

David Grier was telling a story about improvising at Roanoke. He asked a whole bunch of flatpickers what song they knew the best. The all came up with different fiddle tunes and then he said "well, I figure the song we've know the longest is HAPPY BIRTHDAY" So why don't you each play it for me and stop when you screw up. Most people didn't get that far. The lesson being, if you can't play what you hear in your head, you are going to be challenged by what you can improvise. Now few of us are every going to find it as easy to improvise as Grier, Thile or Grisman. But how do you get better. Is that the question.

Practice tapes like the Stev Kaufman work out are excellent.

Fiddle Tunes, Fiddle Tunes, Fiddle Tunes. I'm amazed how they help your ears and link things togther.

Playing with others, but with a caveat. Play with the right people, if you can. It's good to be the worst guy in the room (if they'll let you). And bigger is not better. Throw your own pick'n party. Invite two guys instead of a dozen, who can play and are interested in what you want to play. Parking lot's and campfires are fun, but can get unruly and don't always lead to the best growth.

Trabscribed solo's are very easy to find these days. Get a hold of a Thile, Grisman, Benson, Bibey, etc book of transcribed solo's. Find a tune and pick it apart. Don't just learn it with blinders on. Recognize a lick that takes you from one chord to another, a turn around a nice tag. Stop and think what other songs will this fit in? How can I transpose this into another tune I play. Some times you hear a lick that is so great and when you pick it apart, it is so simple. PAYDAY!

Unlike Rock and Pop, most players in acoustic music are pretty accessible. Camps, workshops, house concerts. Get up close and personal.

Last but not least, mandolin can rock hard in a pop idium. Steve Earles, The Mountain is acoustic Rock and Roll record in my mind. Ronnie is just killer and the tunes are great. Also, lot's of early Ry Cooder, some of Steve James material and certainly any of Rich Delgrosso's stuff will be welcome at a Rock-n-Pop picking circle. Sam Bush is amazing on Jorma's Blue Country Heart record and is also full of good jam material. You just got learn a couple cool tunes to throw out that you can lead off. Helps is you can sing. The next thing you know they'll be saying, "make sure you invite that mando guy next time".