Bowl Back Mandos

[smilnJackB]

I've played A styles and F styles, but I have never played one of the bowl back styles, also known as Italian sytles and, I think, also known as potato bugs. #What is the sound and playability like? #How is the comfort with the round back?
# #Jack http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[vkioulaphides]

Jack, please come join us down at the Classical section; much to learn, and from much better informed folks than myself.

Speaking for myself, though, and having played only bowlbacks over the past, oh... 40-or-so years, I can attest to the perfect comfort and playability that goes with them. One does, of course, have to hold them different than flatbacks (about which I know precious little).

As for the sound, well, there's no accounting for taste. Try one and see/hear what you think.

Cheers,

Victor

[Bob A]

Jack, I've been playing Gibson style mandolins since 1970. A couple years ago I got sucked into the classical section, and started looking for a bowlback. It took a while to find one, since many of them are junk to start with, and many others have been ruined by using strings made for Gibson-style mandolins, which pull apart the light bowkbacks.

After a couple months of haunting ebay, and getting advice from the folks on the board, I got my first. Since then I've found they're like potato chips - you can't have just one.

The sound is beautiful and ringing on the a and e strings; less throaty and woody than Gibsons on the wound strings. The bowl took about 2 months to get used to - now I don't even notice the difference when I switch from one type to another. You do mostly have to play them sitting down, at least until you get used to it.

The scale is 13" rather than the Gibson 14". This was awkward at first, but again I'm used to it now.

The sound of a good bowlback is like nothing you've ever played. I can't begin to tell you how much it delights me. You will not be able to tell this from a recording, because for some reason you lose a lot of the ambient sound - it doesn't come across. The strings are lighter, of course, which makes playing it a dream - nice low action, easy stretches, and a bell-like chiming treble. They're great.

Like Victor says, check out the classical section if you're interested. Everyone should have at least one bowlback, just for the experience.

[smilnJackB]

Victor and Bob,
#That was good information. #I would like to hear a round back. #I did not know they needed lighter strings and I did not know the classical section was the place to go to learn about them. #A friend has a round back 'project' coming from e-bay and that is what got me started thinking about them. #I will pass on info to him. #Thanks! # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Jack

[Eugene]

You can download a few entire pieces played on roundback by Duo Zigiotti-Merlante here (http://www.duozigiottimerlante.it/download.htm). Also, download tracks played by Richard Walz from the Cafe's own mp3 page.

[Jim Garber]

You can also hear Carlo Aonzo, a great classical player, play some non-classical Italian music on Serenata (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00000I9KG/qid=1083760327/sr=8-6/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i6_xgl15/002-9239714-8648018?v=glance&s=classical&n=507846) and Traversata (http://www.acousticdisc.com/acd_splash.html) on Acoustic Disc label -- click on artists and then Carlo (third pic on the top row) then click on releases.

BTW another player who uses a bowlback exclusively is old time player Kenny Hall (http://lineonline.org/kenny.html).

Jim

[GBG]

Do most serious classical players play #bowl backs, or some other types of mandolins?

[vkioulaphides]

Well, "serious" is a heavy term, and one implying that those who do not make the cut as "serious" are somewhat, ehm... deficient.

In all truth, most classical mandolinists —and certainly outside the U.S.— play bowlbacks. That, however, does not go as far as to mean that the classical repertoire CANnot or SHOULD not be played on other types of mandolins; nor does it mean there is anything wrong with performers of the classical repertoire that use, say, A-style instruments.

You really have to see this issue in perspective: Anywhere else but the U.S., the bowlback is simply THE mandolin; nothing else is known or recognized as such. All other types are essentially an American phenomenon. Nice instruments, though, one and all...

[Jim Garber]

The "other" preferred mandolin for classical in the US esp is the lyon & Healy A style which has a violin-like scroll.

You can see some contemporary maker's takes on these in the eye candy (http://www.mandolincafe.com/archives/builders/lyonhealy.html) section.

Marilynn Mair plays classical repertoire on a Lyon & Healy style A. You can hear her on the mp3 (http://www.mandolincafe.com/mp3/) page.

Jim

[Arto]

quote: "You really have to see this issue in perspective: Anywhere else but the U.S., the bowlback is simply THE mandolin; nothing else is known or recognized as such. All other types are essentially an American phenomenon. Nice instruments, though, one and all..."

Well, Victor, I don´t think the situation is SO straightforward. Flat back mandolins (often decribed as "Portuguese mandolins" in older literature) have been around in Europe for a long time, especially as amateur or folk instruments. (Classical and professional players probably have preferred bowlbacks, I think.) Of course, Greece has a very long and illustrious history of all kinds of bowl back instruments... ;-)

greetings, Arto

[vkioulaphides]

[QUOTE]"nothing else is known or recognized as such"

Of course, Arto. That was one of my usual, sweeping, dangerously semi-accurate statements. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Please note, however, the issue of nomenclature: To my knowledge, it was in the U.S. that the descendants of the Iberian, flat-back instruments were systematically called "mandolins". Again, to my limited knowledge only, their respective ancestors were called bandurrías and all sorts of other things back in the Old World.

As such, i.e. as instruments of an entirely different classification, these flat-back instruments came with their very own folk-repertoire, not the Neapolitan one, from which so much of the "classical" repertoire stemmed, e.g. the works of Calace and his fellow-Italians. THAT half of my half-truth is, I think, true. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Blueglass]

smilnjack best thing is to go pick one up. I think the bowl back is best for when you just can't pick that fiddle tune you been working on again, its late at night, but you still want to play mandolin. The bowl back makes me feel like a diffrent person sometimes. It helps me remember what I sometimes forget, that is, the mandolin has far more history than Bill Monroe.

[Kirby161]

where is a good place to find a bowl-back.
ive always found them in the local music store and they are.....how do you say.....peices of ####.
where do you find them?
which is the best?
which strings do you use?

[Jim Garber]

Hard to say where to get one. The reason they are not high quality is that a) at one time they were the prevalent mandolin and there was a mandolin craze and b) they were often esp in later years strung with heavier strings which destroyed them.

Having said that, I can honestly say that i have bought many bowlbacks on eBay but every one of them has needed to have work done on it in order for it to be a good playing instrument. So bear that in mind when you do buy one.

In terms of American vintage bowlbacks once again the best name brands would be Vega, Martin and Washburn. If you find one of those it would generlaly be worthy of buying esp at a good price and if it is in good condition.

The joy of a good bowlback is that it is very lightly constructed. The best strings to use are as light as possible, at least for the vintage ones. A reasonable string to get would be GHS A240 (http://www.juststrings.com/ghs-a240.html) set. Black Diamonds are recommended also tho I have not used them. The other higher priced string is Calace line by Dogal which is imported by only one place in the US and Lenzners which is not imported here at all yet.

If you are in Europe it might be easier getting strings.

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

Kirby161, your comment on the ubiquitous bowlbacks is sad but true. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif But, as Jim explains, abundance and poor quality seem to go hand-in-hand: During the "Golden Age" of the bowlback in America, these things were manufactured by the tens of thousands— and not adhering to any particular qualitative standard.

As a cynical playwright friend of mine once said, "Yup, THAT's my life-story: Looking for the flower in the sh*tfield." http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Looking for a quality, vintage bowlback is much along the same lines: Again, as Jim suggests, begin by looking for at least a quality brand: If in search of the "Made in the USA" label, Martin, Vega, Washburn (and their numerous incarnations) come to mind; if in mood for a taste of Italy, think de Meglio, Puglisi, Stridente et al— I am speaking of those brands with a sizable enough production in their heyday to make the search both feasible and readily affordable.

Discard no-name, zero-quality wallhangers! The cost of restoration (that WILL be needed, no matter what) far exceeds the value of such artifacts.

Then, rate your findings on a scale of condition: Badly warped necks and/or sunken soundboards should sink the rating of an instrument to the lowest grade, as should demolished bowls; instruments needing refretting, bridge reconstruction, binding replacement, etc. should rank somewhere in the middle; finally (and hopefully), instruments needing nothing more than a good clean-up, new strings and perhaps a superficial fret-dressing and buffing of the machinery, should rank on top.

Best of luck in this. Yes, there is no such thing as a free lunch; on the contrary, there certainly IS such a thing as a quality musical instrument for the price of a pair of shoes: The lowly, lovely bowlback! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif