Must have tools

[cburcher]

OK, I've read a lot (here, Siminoff) and am still considering the plunge into building an F. I have learned much from the tools thread here, but am still looking for a definitive "what tools can a builder not do without" thread. So, if y'all can respond with all of your wisdom regarding tools, it would help me and, I think, many others.

So far, seems like a bandsaw would be very helpful, and at around $100 starting, not a bad investment. Some sort of power sander sounds right. Then, a joiner or other technique to square edges (possibly do on bandsaw with fence?). A router for binding and gouging tops/backs. files and coping saw/miter box for fretboard. Others?

[Rave On]

I've got a 100$ 9 inch Delta bandsaw... It's kind of useful and kind of aggravating. It doesn't really have the size, power or precision to a lot of useful things (like cutting the shape of a one piece neck blank) or cutting out the blocks but it is better than nothing. I use a hand plane and a shooting board to do the center joints. Hand planes are cheaper, safer and do a better job (IMHO) than a powered jointer. You can buy slotted fret boards from Stew-Mac or Randy Allen and I recommend buying them. A router is useful for the binding channel and neck slot. Some people do the center Joint with a router. I think I know what you mean by gouging the top with a router. This is IMHO a very dangerous operation. You need well designed jigs and fixtures or a pin router and a lot of experience to do this safely. You are better off with chisels, finger planes and scrapers. Blisters are painful but at least they heal. You can also do a reasonable job without a electric sander... mandolins are small and sanding isn't really a big deal. The power tools I use the most are the bandsaw, Router/Dremel, spindle sander, and drill press. I could buy a decent mandolin for what I've spent on tools I don't use. Sit down and list in detail they operations you'll need to perform and the tools you think you need to perform the operation. It might surprise you. Rave On.

[JeffS]

I'm still building my jigs/forms/clamps but this is what I decided about powertools. I had a list of tools that I was dead set on having before I could start building. Jointer, planer, band saw, drill press were at the top of that list. Then I got to thinking about the history of the instrument. Naturally, the mandolin is a heck of alot older than power tools. So what I decided <gasp> is that I was going to try to build using hand tools as much as and whenever possible. I'd save a heck of a lot of money for one thing. I decided to start with a Portugese mandolin first since it would be easiest to make with hand tools. I plan on making one of these and an octave mandola in this style and then try an A model. I figure once I make an A, I'll have a pretty good idea on what tools I really need and by then I'll know if building is something I really want to do.

I was getting way too hung up on the tools though. I think though that a good bandsaw and a drill press would be used most. At least that was my thoughts. The drill press never entered my mind until I saw the safty planer. I figured that would be handy for graduating the top and thicknessing sides. And the drill press can also be use to hollow the plates as well as drill the peghead. I guess you can fix a sanding drum to it too. So maybe the drillpress is even handier than the band saw?

[Flowerpot]

I started out with some odds and ends and bought more tools as they became absolutely neccessary. The things I could not do without: bandsaw, router/table (for binding channel), dremel w/ router base (inlay), manual scroll saw with micro-laser cut blades (cutting pearl), good chisels (one 1/4" for scroll binding), gouges, finger plane, scraper, lots of clamps of every type, small drill press (essential for tuning machine holes and handy for much else), calipers, thickness guage. Things I don't have that I am going to get for the next build: 24" belt sander, Japanese water stones for sharpening chisels and gouges. Things I have that I could do without: joiner (I will go the hand plane method in the future, as you do get a better joint), spindle sander (handy, but I could make do with drill press attachments), planer (essential only if you want to start from thick maple side wood and plane it down to size). The thing I would kill for but can't afford: thickness sander.

[Brookside]

This is one of the most often asked questions. I agree with the direction of the others. I don't think a person should make a huge list of everything and run out and buy it all. Tool aquisition is a journey in and of itself. Start with the must haves. For me, that would be a bandsaw, drill-press, Dremel, and assorted hand tools. Aquire the rest as you need them. This may increase the build time on your first mandolin but it will definately save you the most money and insure that you end up with tools you want and will use. If you buy as you go, the financial bite will be easier to bear as well.

[Dave Cohen]

I'm gonna sound like a curmudgeon here, but all of you are missing the point. The "point" is that whether or not you use power tools, the MOST important tools, in order of importance, are (i) tools for measurement and alignment, e.g., rules, squares, calipers, guages, etc., (ii) handtools, e.g., a backsaw, some little X-Acto backsaws, a jeweler's saw, chisels, planes (block, low angle block, jack, and jointer), finger planes for carving, a spokeshave or two, files, rasps, an assortment of needle files, nut files, etc., etc., and (iii) power tools.

I have a shop full of power tools. I use them a lot. If I didn't, I would work myself to death in these central Virginia summers. But the majority of my time is spent in the bench room with measurement and handtools. My one word of advice re power tools is, don't buy cheap tools like $100 bandsaws. They won't do a good job, and you will lose money when you realize that you need to upgrade. For that matter, don't buy cheap handtools. You will find that the handtools you start with will be a considerable expenditure. Acquiring them will keep you busy for a good while. Finally, you will never learn how to work wood with power tools unless you understand the fundamentals of working wood with handtools, particularly edge tools. Oh, yeah, I almost forgot; right up there in importance with the handtools are things like sharpening eqpt, a strop, etc.

[cburcher]

man, this is sweet. I posted this earlier today and I come home with four wise replies. And I mean wise in the sense of wisdom, not as in wise-###. Great posts y'all. I appreciate your efforts to educate me and I am absorbing the messages. As I was reading I was thinking. I know this..... Start simple, make some figures and templates, start buying simple (but high quality) hand tools as needed, etc. Thanks for setting me straight. Man, the internet rules.

p.s., I've never seen the word curmudgeon spelled out before - sweet.

[Rob Powell]

Things I already had from other projects to use in my hope-to-be-new-hobby:

1) Manual coping saw.
2) 1/4 sheet sander.
3) Some fine carving tools my dad gave me (by fine I mean small, although they are nice quality.)
4) Cordless drill/driver.
5) I think I have some files around here somewhere http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Things I bought:
1) Dremel scroll saw.
2) Combination chisel/rasp.
3) Finger plane.

I intend to buy 1 more nice chisel and and 1 more nice rasp.

To be honest, everything I bought so far I have other uses for. Until I know whether or not I can actually do this and enjoy it, I'm just not gonna buy anything I know I won't use for something else that I know I can do.

I just cut out a birdseye maple neck last night with the scroll saw. It works fine for anything under 2-1/2" thick. Now I had some issues because the wood I bought was some b-e-a-utiful stuff leftover from gunstocks and it was 3" by anywhere from 2-4". So, I cut the 3" down to 2 as far as I could and chiseled the rest.

Not anxious to do that again...so...for now, I'm going to the community center woodshop tomorrow and cut the rest of the necks from this wood. It only costs 5$ to use their tools when they are open and I can rough cut 7-8 necks tomorrow night with their band saw.

So add a band saw if this takes off...I know it has intrigued me for years...

The other things I'm sure to get if I like it as much as I think I will and it produces anything resembling a mandolin...a dremel and possibly a thickness planer or I might just build a thickness sander.

The dremel has so many attachments and what not and the scroll saw will work for almost all of the wood...

I'm not striving to be a professional luthier but I ever become one, I'm still not sure I would would change my thinking...what I love most about the concept is working the wood by hand and producing a fine instrument.

If I could find the right wood in the woods...I'd do that just for the pleasure of it!

[Yonkle]

I agree with Mench Cohen! I've built 3 mandolins and I don't even have a shop. I do it in my computer room on my wifes butcher block which I took from the kitchen. The only power tools I use are a drill and a dremel, the rest hand tools. I just started with what I knew I needed or what I thought I needed and then aquired more tools as I went along. You do need a lot of measuring tools, chisels, files, planes, gouges. Power tools like bandsaws, orbital sanders ect would be nice but you can do it with hand tools too, a coping saw and sandpaper would save a lot of money. Just start doing it and you will figure out what you can live without and what you must have. The hardest tools for me to swallow were (nut files)4 little files to cut a little slot in the nut and bridge, but I think it is one of the tools if you try to scrimp on you may be sorry, a lot of the other tools you can use for other stuff too, so it's a little easier to take. JD

[Brookside]

With all due respect Dave, I'm cannot imagine ranking tools in their order of importance. I think it depends entirely on the individual builder. I can tell you this for sure, I would not be building mandolins without power tools. I doubt I would be building without a bandsaw. I too spend more time with hand tools than power tools but that is only because I can cut a neck from a maple block with a bandsaw in a few minutes rather than spend an hour hacking on it with a coping saw. I just don't have the patience for that. "For me" (as I said above) a bandsaw probably makes the difference between building or not.

I do have my limits that I impose upon myself. I personally have no desire to build from a kit, although I realize that many others derive great pleasure from it. I don't care to carve my plates with CNC machines. I'd rather work them with my hands, even if I'm using a power tool in the process. The point is that my process is all about what I choose is important. In my case, I want to have fun with building. I may never be a world-class builder (or I may) but I'm enjoying myself and producing instruments that I'm happy with.

There are several hundred builders in Paracho, Mexico using little more than a knife in their guitar building. Many are of poor quality but a few are quite fine. These luthiers would laugh at the thought of calipers and guages. Just a peak at the other extreme end of the spectrum. IMHO, there is no correct place to be in the tool spectrum. We must all decide that for ourselves.

[Dave Cohen]

Different builders do each operation differently. I am heavily into the measurements because of my science and measurement science background. But I think that it remains a truism that you will never understand how your machine works wood, nor how to get the most out of your machine, unless you understand, say, how an edge cuts a cross-grain groove as opposed to how it cuts a groove along the grain.

Luthiers are woodworkers. Even if you are heavily into CNC, you are still working wood. Unless you understand how an edge cuts the wood vs how an abrasive does it, you will not be able to synthesize new uses for your CNC, nor use your CNC to its capability. Norm Abram is a good example of what I am talking about. He bashes everything together w/ machines, often not showing the amount of setup involved. Because he can force everything together with biscuits and/or a nailgun, he often puts pieces of wood together in orientations which must make most other woodworkers wince. I am not talking purism here. I am no purist. I am just advocating doing things with understanding as you go. You will be more satisfied that way.

[Brookside]

I hope you don't think I'm being argumentative. #I really do see your point but I don't think you see mine. #I simply would not be building with a coping saw. #I cannot be more satisfied with building if I am not building at all. #Perhaps I'm missing out on some insight by not pumping my arm off as I let the bandsaw do the work. #Still, I get the job done to my satisfaction. #Perhaps later I'll further my study of woodworking by more traditional methods. #I do not dispute the value in that. #

I think the most critical element in the very beginning is to hold an interest. #The way to achieve this is to produce something; preferably something better than you thought you could. #Power tools were/are my crutch at this stage. #I am becoming more curious about many aspects of building as I go. #I'm sure to look further into them. #I think I can effectively back up from here, just as some begin with a kit and then move on to scratch building. #I'm just not there yet. #Whether a person begins with a kit, every power tool he can find, a mix of power and hand tools or strictly hand tools is a matter of his comfort level. #Hopefully from there, he will establish an interest and progress over the years. #

Once again, I just wanted to present another perspective. #I'm sure there are many like me who will never get going with this if they think they need to begin with hand tools. #Some may be better off to back into that later.

[Luthier]

The more you build and try to satisfy your addiction, the more you will aquire. #It makes sense to try and get the job done right by whatever means is available. #As a certified woodworking instructor, (6-12) I cannot emphasize enough the importance of safety. #It doesn't matter if it is a power tool or a simple hand plane. #If it is not sharp (another science in itself) it will hurt you.
This is why I get so mad to see what they have done to our craft. #I don't know how many of you have had "shop" in school when you were younger, but it kills me to see that it is going, going, going and will soon be gone. #I only get to see my students for 21 days in 6th 7th and 8th grade and I squeeze in a brief introduction to woodworking for a week or so in the 7th grade. #I know this is off the subject, but this is a big mistake that has been made by the "people making the rules". #I just wish I could reach out and drag you all over for a few woodworking lessons in my shop.....with that said, I will once again push in my soap box and prepare to "teach da yout of Amerca"
(It just frustrates the heck out of me sometimes and I have to vent)

Don
(another mench heard from)

[Rob Powell]

Seems to me we are all saying is that we each approach this from our own perspectives and we use whatever tools make the process enjoyable for us individually. JD builds from kits which allows him to have fewer tools. Brookside uses more tools because he needs to produce with his available time. Dave heavily enjoys the scientific aspect of building.

I spent 4 hours rough cutting a neck with a woefully inadequate (for the size of the wood) scroll saw, hand saw, coping saw and chisel. To be quite honest the parts I did by hand were the most satisfying...to me.

This is my first attempt at Lutherie and I won't build from a kit. Only because for me, the enjoyment is in working the wood.

I don't really care if it takes me a year and the end result is the mando from hell as long as I enjoy the time spent.

[cburcher]

This is great.

In reading the above replies, I thought of two analogies. Golf and the aquarium hobby. Having had experience as beginner -> novice -> intermediate -> wherever I am now, I hope this will help and you will see how it applies here.

In any of these adventures, you begin with desire to DO. What you do first will determine in large part, the future of your hobby. The aquarium hobby has a drop out rate of nearly 95%, the average golfer shoots way above 105. Early stages of development are frustrating. Golfers spend way too much money on clubs when they have no swing mechanics (the best advice I ever got, "you should focus on getting a good swing before you buy anything"). The typical fish hobbyist is talked into spending way too much money, only to fail because they never understood the simple principles behind fishkeeping. Taking a purist approach to any of these ventures will greatly reduce your success (in all likelihood, anyway - I guess there are 'naturals'). If you worry too much about swing mechanics early, you may never hit the ball. If you try and raise fish with no equipment, you may spend too much time doing maintenence to enjoy the fish. So, it seems like the purist approach is EARNED through trial-and-error and experience.

Take my mandolin playing. At first I wanted to be Sam Bush and David Grisman. I played too fast, but it kept me excited. It wasn't until recently that I could appreciate the somewhat simple, often sloppy (I know it's near blasphemy) of Monroe. In talking to David McGlauglin of JMB, he agreed that one needed a certain degree of maturity to appreciate Monroe (or the analogy of purity).

So, I think the common theme in all these ventures is you have to do what keeps you interested AND gets satisfactory results; certainly in the early stages. If someone is happy spending two grand on tools before even making a template, maybe that is what they need to maintain their interest. Some may take the pure approach and take 5 years to shape a neck, but will be excited and interested that they are doing it the way they want.

I think I will start by making templates from wood. That way, I haven't invested much, get to experience the subtleties of woodwork, and am making steps in the right direction.

[Flowerpot]

Gotta say I can identify with Brookside here. My building time is limited to 30 or 45 minutes per night, and maybe a couple of hours on the weekends. To me, the most important tools are the ones that save hours of time, because it's no fun to go out for a half hour and spend the whole time cutting a maple neck blank with a hand saw or cutting two inches of binding channel with a chisel. I like to feel like I'm getting somewhere, and that I can see some results every day. Otherwise, I would get too frustrated. But somebody else might enjoy the process as much as I enjoy the results, and be happy carving everything with an exacto knife even if it takes them years. It's a very individual thing.

cburcher, I have no doubt that you will make good decisions; sounds like you know where you stand in the process.

[Dave Cohen]

I think that what is still being missed is that in order to use your machines effectively (AND safely, Thanks, Don), you have to understand how each of the machines removes wood. Motorized saws cut similarly to hand saws, motorized sanders remove wood similarly to hand held sanding blocks, and so on. Even the best tablesaws have runout, so you can't always use a tablesaw for a finishing cut. Most often, your machines will be used for roughing cuts, then you will have to finesse and finish with edge (hand) tools. That is especially true in lutherie. The only exception to that is pattern routing, and you can't use pattern routing for everything, not by a long shot. That's the way it is for every luthier I know.

I am not by any means advocating avoidance of machinery. What I AM advocating is the safe and effective use of the machinery, and that knowledge is most easily gained by learning to use hand tools along the way. BTW, every experienced luthier that I know puts measurement at the top of the list, including folks like Rolfe Gerhardt, Don MacRostie, etc., etc. Even if you end up with a jig for everything, you still have to make careful measurements in order to make the jig.

[Dru Lee Parsec]

Lute maker Robert Lundberg once said that all luthiers go through 3 stages.

In the first stage we collect tools
In the 2nd stage we collect wood
In the 3rd stage we are building instruments (usually by hand with very few tools).

[sunburst]

Dave, your post made me think. A lot of luthiers come to luthierie without much woodworking experience.

Some of my most important tools have been woodworking text books.

Using tools correctly and safely is important whether the tool is a hand tool or a power tool. You have to learn to use the tools! One of the most unnerving things to see is a novice with no training using woodworking tools.

Another of my "must have" tools is Understanding Wood by R. Bruce Hoadley.
I can't say enough about this book. When I got this book I'd been doing wood work for years, some of those years profesionally. I thought "too bad I didn't have this book earlier when I had more to learn". That thought didn't last long! I learned more on each page than I thought I would learn from the whole book...and that was just the first time I read it. I've read the book at least 3 times and learned things each time. I constantly use it for a reference also.
How much must Mr. Hoadly know about wood if just the part he wrote down is this remarkable book?

[Yonkle]

Kinda funny, this thread started out of what tools you HAVE to have, and ended up a bit different. If I was going to start making mandolins to sell, and was building all the time I think I would get a lot of power tools, make a real shop ect. ect. But if one is just wanted to make one or two or three from a kit just to check it out, then I would just use the bare basic's mostly hand tools to keep the cost down.
I got started just because I wanted a mandolin and I was good at woodshop in school, so I thought it would be fun to make one. Along the way I ended up learning a lot about mandolins a lot about music, and learned how to Inlay and how to finish wood, theres alot more than just "building" involved. Never thought I'd build 3, but once you get started it seems you want to do another because you learn your mistakes from the last one, and then on and on. Now that I have #3 done I am very happy with it, and just use 1 and 2 for comparision sake, #3 is a keeper plays and looks fine, so Don't need another mandolin........BUT, I wish I did, I'd love to do another, so I am at the crossroads of if I do anymore I will have to sell them and if that works I will have to get more tools ect. SO I think I am going to have to lay low for a while and see what happens, if asked to build one I would, more for me than the customer. If anything, I know now someday when I am retired, I can have a hobby/job that would be very rewarding, mostly rewarding spiritually and maybe a bit monetarily! Tools or no tools building is a blast! JD

[Rob Powell]

JD,

Like you said, this topic started out as
Must have tools

Looks like the only must have we all agree on is desire.

[Brookside]

I just want you to know, Dave, that I understand your point and I take it to heart. #I listen better than you must think. #This may sound corny but as I was gluing my tailpieces and headblocks in my rims the other day I could literally hear Jim Hilburn's words in my head, "centerline, centerline, centerline...." #When feeding a block of maple into my bandsaw, I hear Don saying, "watch those fingers, know your tool inside and out, use it safely." #I can already hear snippits of "make careful measurements throughout every stage of construction." #In a sense, you have all been hanging around my basement as long as I have been hanging around here. #But enough about the voices in my head.

My only 2 cents is that if a completely inexperienced builder would rather put a bandsaw #

before a coping saw, I'd say, it works for me. #What I have lost in insight and understanding of woodworking, I have gained in enthusiasm. #And that has kept me building. #I'm confident the insight and understanding will follow in due time. #Your method for gaining these benefits is, I'm sure, most sound. #(that is, the method of using hand tools to better understand how power tools work wood. #Just so you know I'm listening) For this weekend I just want to rip some necks, backs and tops out and string her up. #I promise to measure well, be safe and perhaps even dust off my plane and rig a shooting board. #Just don't ask me to go near that wretched little coping saw. # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[cburcher]

something else I've learned here.

it's easy for beginners (at anything) and experienced people alike to get hung-up on the wrong thing. I wrestle with this in my job (science) every day. Also raising kids is a good analogy - you have to pick your battles. What I mean is that it is hard to determine which aspects of your job, family, hobbies, to focus your energy on. I began my quest toward building a mandolin by getting hung up on tools. Wrong battle. Y'alls wisdom and ideas indicate to me that that ain't the thing I have to worry about. Stamina and efficiency, my two favorite aspects of anything, once again appear to be my real hurdles.

[Yonkle]

Well said cburcher! hear hear!

[Jason West]

When I started, someone recomended not buying ANYHING until the absolute need arises for it and then buy the best you can afford. Of course, I didn't follow this sage advice and ended up with a bunch of stuff I don't use very often or had to replace with something of higher quality or greater accuracy/adjustability.

Dr. Cohen offers great wisdon. DO NOT waste $$ on inexpensive tools. Not only will you have to replace the tool anyway, you will more than likely ruin good wood in the process, thereby increasing the cost.

Don't overlook the possibility of renting out machine time or joining a woodworking co-op.

[Luthier]

Well I am just going to have to open my school!!!
I have too much to share and too many people to share it with...LOL
Measure twice, cut once.

Don

[HoGo]

IMHO, there are two categories of tools:
1. Must HAVE (a few handtools, planes and bending iron)
2. Must have ACCESS TO (big and expensive powertools)
I don't need bandsaw every day so I asked my friend to use his own. This saw is much better than one that I would be able to buy and he showed me how to set it up and work with it properly. Another friend has 20" jointer, thickness sander... For a beginner or amateur builder it is more affordable this way.

[labraid]

Let us not fall into the trap of competing with the Koreans for productivity, I humbly believe. My own perspective is that things hard won reap the most reward both in the final product and in knowledge gained. Mistakes are wonderful opportunities--too many templates and patterns assure the status quo and little or no evolution. Don't be afraid to fail, it just might turn out wonderful. Anyway, you all know all this, just makes me feel good to add in my vote for the more traditional, in my own words.. Thanks for tolerating
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
-Brian

[labraid]

(And don't foget the buffing cloths, arbors, and polishing compounds!!!)
(and a foot tredle to spin them!!! (hehe, thanks Roy aka Woodwright)