Crosspicking eureka!

[bush-man]

Just felt like sharing, and there's a moral too, "don't give up". hehehe I've been struggling to learn crosspicking for some time now. Nothing too intense, because usually frustration sets in and I give up, however ever now and then I attempt it, and always fail.

The other day I was noodling around and just started doing it. The roll just well, rolled along with no effort at all. Man did I ever have a big old grin on my face! And it wasn't a fluke, cause I can do it everytime now.

Now I have to work it into some tunes, or get some tab for a whole crosspicking song. I just love how this sounds! So keep at it boys and girls, whatever it is your working on. Someday it will all come together from all your effort, and when it does it will appear effortlessly.

happy crosspicking russell

[billkilpatrick]

Someday it will all come together from all your effort, and when it does it will appear effortlessly. #
can i have that in writing, please.

inspirational! ... thanks for that.

(down ... up ... er... ah... up) - bill

[John Flynn]

I agree. That's how it was for me. I couldn't get the roll going for a long time, then all of a sudden I could. I am still building up to really fast speeds, working on incorporating melodies and trying to stay smooth through complex chord changes. For a long time, I could not reliably alternate bass notes. Then, after working on that for a while, it was "just there" and now I can do it. So it keeps unfolding.

[Dfyngravity]

It's funny how you hit plateaus and you never think you'll get much better because no matter how much you practice and play you just seam to stay the same. But then one day all that practicing and playing pays off and you make a leap to the next plateau.

I remember about a year or so after I started playing and I hit one of those plateaus. I was pretty good, I could read music, play a bunch of songs, knew all kinds of chords but I hit a wall and it seamed like I wasn't making any progression at all. Then all of a sudden one day I put in an album of LRB and was able to pick out some solos and could play them nearly to speed. I was like wow, where did that come from.

It's funny because you would logically think you would get better and better with everyday you practice and play but a lot of times it just suddenly happens.

[Brad Weiss]

Can I ask what pattern? There seem a few different "rolls" out there, some on 4 strings, some three. #I like the John Moore right-hand exercises, and have built some rolls around them like:

|---------------------|
|---D---U----D---U---|
|--u---D----U---D----|
|-D---U---D---U------|


or

|---------D------ -|---------D---------|
|-----D-----U---U-|-----D-----U---U--|
|---U---U-----D---|---U---U-----D----|
|-D--------------- |-D-----------------|

I can pick these (esp the 2nd pattern) over chord changes with some hesitation, but it does require some careful fretting to pick cleanly - more a left hand problem than right.

[Jim Broyles]

Excuse the ignorance, but are we talking McReynolds crosspicking, or just arpeggios? Those patterns don't seem like the stuff Jesse does. I have seen it somewhere that only McReynolds style is considered true crosspicking, that's why I ask.

[Brad Weiss]

That's why I asked...!

[billkilpatrick]

russell -

have a look here:

http://www.metronomeonline.com/

... to see how fast you're going. as it is now, i can strike the "d" on every tick of the metronome, get the double "u" in comfortably and return in time to the next "d" at 100 beats per minute. but even at 104 bpm i start to loose it and my wrist begins to freeze up.

this is in no way a competition - i would just like to know at what point you cried "eureka!" and how far i have to go to get there.

- bill

[John Flynn]

are we talking McReynolds crosspicking, or just arpeggios?
I was referring to McReynolds style, DUU, on strings 3-1-2, 4-1-2 or 4-2-3.

[Andrew Lewis]

Congratulations, bush-man! There's nothing like getting past a plateau. Thanks for the general encouragement to all of us...

[jmcgann]

Defining of terms http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif (http://www.johnmcgann.com/crosspicking.html)

Go slowly, really slowly, and try to deliver the pick to each string with the same pick angle and hand position- meaning that rather than anchor your hand and use micro-movements to deliver the pick, allow your forearm to deliver the hand to each string.

<a href="http://www.johnmcgann.com/techtips.html" target="_blank">
More to think about...</a>

Take time to think about what's happening. It's amazing how fast you can improve with some careful consideration http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[Got8Strings]

I have had a theory for a while that a lot of improvement seems to come between practice sessions, not just during. The brain seems to be able to keep working on the practice session long after we have stopped.

[bush-man]

McReynolds style rolls are what im talking about. D U U D U U D U D U U etc

I'm playing simple patterns like: 7 on D string with 4th on A string and open E and then coming down the D string. or 11 on D string open E 12 on A string then 10 11 open etc...

What was a eureka moment was when the roll just rolled smoothly and easily and I didnt have to think in my head, down up up down...my fingers just do it. Just playing these simple patterns sound quite lovely. I am sure being able to work them into a song will be a major leap from here, but I'm having fun just rolling. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[hedding]

the hardest thing for me is wasn't getting the roll. The thing I'm still working on is understanding how to interpret a melody in crosspicking. What I love about Jesse's playing is you can always here the melody but its not straight, but its still in there. When I try to take solos I know or songs or fiddle tunes and make up a crosspicking version it either comes out too notey (not enough of that Jesse crosspicking ring to it) or I can't hear the melody. The only song I've had any luck with so far was Goldrush, I think I've found a nice blend between melody notes and non-melody notes that it sounds similar to Jesse. Any thoughts? Fiddle tunes seem really hard to make crosspicking yet I've heard Jesse do Soldiers Joy and a bunch of good ones.

[Jeroen]

Good point Hedding.

Without a melody, cross string patterns can (will?) become boring easily. Think Chris Hillman on "my uncle".

For the McReynolds roll, a good start is to fit a melody line on the lowest string of the three used (the D in the DuuDuuDu).
Some of Jack Tottle's tunes in his "bluegrass mandolin" book are good examples or excercises.

That book and Andy Statman's book on Jesse McReynolds also contain examples of little bits of melody fitting over a roll, which you can steal. They also contain Jesse McReynolds' little tricks with alternating bits to vary syncopation and add melody.

Statman's record "Andy's Ramble" contains some dazzling cross string phrases to keep you inspired to keep working on adding melody and rhythmic variation to your rolls.

Players like Chris Thile and Tim O'Brien sometimes seem to work the other way around: they fill up gaps in melody lines with their forward alternating rolls over chord notes (like the John Moore excercises).

I am currently sweating on mixing and blending forward and backward roll patterns, both alternating and "economy style". It must be like it was when I learned McReynolds basic pattern, 20 years ago, but I forgot that. I hope to reach the "eureka" point, where it all comes together, soon http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[hedding]

If anyone else is interested in this a great version of what Jeroen is talking about is Jesse's version of Home Sweet Home over at Mandozine. He keeps the melody in the lowest note and keeps almost a continous roll going throughout sounds very cool. I think my issue that I am still struggling with is usuing too complicated of a melody. Jesse's seem to be simplicistic, yet beautiful and my versions seem to come out more like a melodic banjo sound I think. Where its not really a roll but whatever pattern is necessary to make the notes come out. You don't get that same ringing sound and syncopation however.

[billkilpatrick]

hedding - looked at mandozine site couldn't find it. do you have a link?

[Jeroen]

I think that the Home Sweet Home (http://www.mandozine.com/music/tabledit_files/HomeSweetHome-D-McReynolds.tef) on mandozine is an arrangement by Jack Tottle from his book.

It is indeed a great example of how to fit a simple melody in the roll pattern. I guess Jesse himself would have spiced it up just a little: I can not find original arrangements as elegantly simple as Tottle's Home Sweet Home.

I like the subtle syncopation in bar 29. It breaks the flow in a positive way.

[cmandobury]

The first song I learned to crosspick was Golden Slippers in "G" chord. I learned it from Alan Bibey's instructional DVD in the DUU pattern. I love the song Home Sweet Home, I'll give it a try.

[R. Kane]

I just found a short video of Mr. McReynolds demonstrating the technique. Here's the link:

McReynolds (http://www.johnhartford.org/Videos/BeanBlossom6-06/Jesse-crosspickinworkshop.htm)

[hedding]

http://www.mandozine.com/music/search_results.php?searchfor=&tuneselectby=C&mandolevel=&category=&songkey=&artist=mcreynolds&transcriber=&sortby=T&sortorder=A&submit=Find+TableEdit+Files

sorry the link is long just scroll down and click home sweet home

[arbarnhart]

Just an FYI and shameless plug. I put my Cochran book out on the bay. There has been a lot of discussion about whether it is true cross picking or not because it teaches a number of different patterns and has a lot of alternate picking of arpeggios presented as cross picking. There are numerous rolls and picking patterns, some of which are McReynolds style but most of which are not. Personally, I think it is a good book and all the techniques are worth learning; but you may have some purists tell you a lot of them aren't "real" cross picking. I just have so many things stacked up that I want to do that this one is sliding off the list. Anyway, if you are interested just search eBay for "cochran mandolin" and you will find it. I am suggesting that instead of putting a link in as it finds all the active listings for the book and could still be useful after this posting is out of date.