New Mando Break-in

[rhetoric]

Does it really happen that solid top instruments mature with age? Are you sure it's not just that it SOUNDS better because WE get better? And if it does "open up," how come? Top dry out? Chemical change in the woods? Some sort of trained resonance? Is there any science to this or is it all romance.

And someone once told me that if I want a new guitar to open up I should stand it in front of some nice stereo speakers and play loud classical cello solos! Anybody hear of such a thing? Any reason it wouldn't work for a mandolin (assuming it works at all)?

My new mando comes next week (Kentucky 350S from Folk of the Wood) and I was just wondering.

[Bandersnatch Reverb]

I think its true that instruments open up with use, or at least my practical experience tells me this.

My first acoustic guitar (I know... mandolin its not) is an Adamas, and even with carbon fibre, its definately opened up quite a bit with playing. The same is true for my Tacoma mandolin, which has got a LOT of playing since I got it. Ok, of course I got better, better able to get clean tones and the tones I wanted - brisk versus soft etc etc, but its still seeming like the low end especially has mellowed a bit. Just sounds fuller.

I once worked with a gal who worked with my firm while waiting to get into the US Army as a musician. She played strings mostly. She told me that her viola and violins were very special, worth big bux, and that if she didn't use them very regularly, they would "die", and lose their tone forever. This was particularly true of the custome bows she had as I recall.

[John Flynn]

Two points of interest here:

1) There is an article in Acoustic Guitar magazine that you can access off thier website. They did a study where they took new guitars, had professional guitarists play them and rate them. They also had an acoustics labratory do frequency response testing on the top. Then they subjected the guitars to high-intensity sound for some period of time. Then they had the players play the guitars again and re-tested the frequency response. The players thought the guitars all sounded noticably better and the measured frequency response improved also.

2) Several months ago, a guy here on the Cafe' got a new mando, I think it was a Gibson. He digitally recorded himself doing a tune. Six months of playing later, he re-recorded himself playing the same tune, with the same mando, using the same equipment and all the same parameters. He posted both recordings on a website. I listened to both and I was convinced that mando sounded quite a bit better. Several other Cafe's members posted, indicating they thought so also.

I am not saying these anecdotes absolutely prove a point. They are just a couple of relevant inputs that had an impact on my thinking on the subject.

[mandofiddle]

Hey Rhetoric,
I had to laugh at your subject line... Made me remember my first snipe hunt http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Bob DeVellis]

The article I remember about what happens to open up a instrument suggested that long polymers in the cells of the wood break up from playing and thus change the acoustical characteristics of the top. WIth disuse, these polymers partially "heal." That is, the ends of the fragments can re-attach. Although this never completely reverses to the point the top was at when new, it does partially reverse the break-in if the instrument sits idle. I lack the background to make any definitive comment about whether all this is true or not but the paper made a reasonably convincing case.

[Steven Stone]

My favorite line aboout new instruments was from Peter Rowan who said of his new Martin "I just got this guitar, and like all new guitars, it still thinks it's a tree."http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

New mandolins are the same way, not only must the wood "learn" to accept its new position, but the glue and finish must cure. Depending on the finish this process aone can take up to two years (in the case of varnish) or at least six months on lacquer.

Some folks feel vibration and playing can hasten the maturing process. Personally I don't subscribe to the "shake and bake" theories about instrument maturation. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

One final aspect of instrument maturation that few people talk about is the "feel" of a new instrument verses a mature example. Older mandolins especially have a feel and response that I've yet to find in a new instrument, no matter how good it sounds. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[sunburst]

There isn't much real science to support it, nobody really quite knows what happens, but it is very much observable that instruments "open up" with use.
I think this is particularly true with arched top and back instruments like the mandolin and string family instruments.

[Dave Cohen]

There is some empirical evidence that stringed instruments do "open up" some. The near miraculous claims that I sometimes see on this bulletin board and on others are another matter.

Carleen Hutchins published an article in the Catgut Acoustical Society Journal a few years ago on this very subject. I don't remember which issue; I will have to look it up. She had acquired SPL (Sound Pressure Level) spectra on one of her violins immediately after completion, and again some seven years later after it had been played regularly for that period. She found that the amplitudes of some of the peaks associated with body modes or "corpus modes" peaks increased slightly after the seven years. So something definitely had improved. But the magnitude of the improvement was quite small compared to the numerous claims to which I referred above. Owing to the logarithmic nature of human hearing, the "real" effects would have to be quite a bit smaller than what is described in the numerous testimonials we see on this board and on others.

One mechanism that has been suggested for the phenomena is the gradual fragmenting of hemicellulose in the wood, while the cellulose polymers in the fibers remain intact. In effect, the hemicellulose polymer molecules "depolymerise' to form shorter oligomers, thereby making the wood "more flexible". However, there is far from any consensus on that mechanism. Certainly, as wood ages, the extractives and some of the lignins leave, lowering the density of the wood. But the overall musical result is still unclear.

The really exciting thing about musical acoustics is that there is such a long way to go to understand the quality of instruments. That is, there is lots to do. That may seem like reverse logic or rationalization to some, but I thrive on it.

The thing that I've wondered is that, if all of these changes are happening in the wood why they are always described as a positve thing. #I would think that at least some time, these changes would have a negative effect on tone. #In threads on other topics (bracing for example), there have been references to older instruments sounding "muddy" but that isn't usually attributed to the same effects. #This is based not on any instrument building experience or even a lot of instrument playing but it just seems that entropy would imply a movement to a lower quality.

[archie]

My experience is the sound of archtop instruments changes daily, hourly, and sometimes by the minute.I've got one guitar that I need to thrash for 20 minutes before it wakes up and my take on "good sound" pours forth. It is much harder for a person to objectively evaluate an instrument's long-term changes. Anyone care to compile a list of commonly used adjectives and then reach a consensus on what each one means?

And according to Carleen Hutchins (Dave Cohen be praised for bringing her name into this), not just any old vibration will awaken dormant mojo. Check out this link:
http://www.catgutacoustical.org/PEOPLE/cmh/laird10.html

[danb]

From what I've seen, it's quite real. Some stuff I've read talks about the wood drying out slowly and becoming more vibrational. I've noticed that when the humidity is just right, the instrument really sings. The setup changes slightly with moderate humidity changes too, and moving a bridge just a few mm has an enormous impact on tone.

2 different 20's gibsons I've had my hands on were well played, then left in storage for 50 years or so. Both sounded "tight" on first strum, but a couple hours playing was like experiencing the whole opening-up process in fast-forward. There is an ENORMOUS difference in tone on a regularly-played mandolin vs one that is seldom strummed. It's most noticeable in sustain and volume, I hear a big difference from when I start playing vs 20 mins later.

If you are a hard picker, instruments seem to open up quicker. I sure am, and mine sure do! It's a lot of work to keep them ticking over optimally, I'd say that a minimum of 30 mins a night are required for maintenance, and 1-2 hrs a night to really wake 'em up well!

[Big Joe]

There are several issues in addition to age one must consider in an instrument 'opening up'. The kind of finish used is vitally important. Also the woods used. Not so much the species, but laminated vs solid. Then thickness or graduation becomes an issue. Some instruments use a pressed shape as opposed to a carved shape. That also affects the end outcome.

[onlyagibsonisgoodenuff]

I remember in the old days, you'd get an instrument and everybody would say, "Oh that will open up, just play it. " Some times they would, but not all the instruments I had experience with actually changed much at all. I remember thinking that if I only could wait 50 years, this mandolin will sound great! It seems that things have changed, as many luthiers are turning out mandolins and guitars that sound great right out of the shop! Now it's fun to break in the new instrument because they sound great, you don't have to put up with a tight sound in hopes that it will "open up" someday. In fact, if this Fern of mine opens up much more, our banjo player may have to start shopping for a new banjo!

[Ken Sager]

I'll second what Dave Cohen said. It appears the qualitative changes that impact human preferences happen at a different levels than the measurable quantitative changes (scientific measurement). For example, it doesn't take much measurable difference in your drinking water to make it unpalatable (single digit parts per billion with some compounds) but you'll know it when it crosses the line. Our ability to hear distinctions (though not as accurate as our taster/smeller ability) is still quite refined and can detect slight variances in tonal quality. Slight variance one way or another makes us love (or despise, or feel indifferent about) any given mandolin as it ages through play.

Just a thought,
Ken

[rhetoric]

Well, in my first snipe hunt we actually caught one. Most of us were pretty suspicious that it was just a chicken on which somebody painted spots (somebody on the camp staff was really bored). Ironically, while we've all been on snipe hunts there IS such a thing as a snipe. Sooooooo...

I think I'll buy a cello CD. I can't say the case is closed, based on your posts, but I think I'll lean with the most of you toward the "it opens up" side. Still no mandolin, but I'm impatiently waiting.

[Flowerpot]

Somebody had posted this link before in another thread, but I think it bears repeating. Good food for thought.

http://www.scoraig.com/arts/abeavitt/humiditycycling.htm

The author attributes part of instrument break-in to humidity cycling, which occurs naturally over the lifetime of the instrument( in this case a viola), but which can be accelerated. The humidity cycles induce creep in the wood (measured in his experiment) and every humidity cycle brings the instrument closer to steady state. As well, with each humidity cycle, the sound profile (measured on a spectrum analyzer) gets "richer" (i.e. fewer high harmonic wolf tones). He even went as far as making a bowing machine to create a controlled stimulus for the instrument during testing, and the differences in sonic spectrum are very noticable as the instrument "ages".

If I remember right, he implied that if the string tension is removed, the process has to begin again, which has been the experience of many people who change strings all at once -- the instrument goes through an adolescent phase while the top re-settles. The article was reason enough to convince me to change strings one at a time, and I do think it helps.

[futrconslr]

I had a well respected luthier here in Tennessee tell me that if a mandolin is a piece of__when its built it will always be. It may sound a little better over time but not enough to turn it into a really great instrument. I think he is right. As an aside, i had a laminated top MK as my first ax. When I first got it it sounded like a Ricky played through an amp with the treble turned all the way up. Peter Buck would have loved it. Anyway, I had it set up by a decent guy and after about a year it mellowed out. It DID NOT sound like a Loar but it didnt make my ears bleed either! I think "opening up" is a way to sell crappy mandolins. lol.